Thailand takes on drugs giants (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6587379.stm)

Should free market capitalism also be use to regulate people's health? If the Thai were to abide by patent law millions of Thai would die of AIDS. Yet, if they just make their own drugs, the government is able to give the medicine away for free.

So? Which is it? The lives of potentially 10s of millions saved by-passing drug patents or only the lives of a few very rich people saved and abide by the patents?

Thailand has free health care and their government must answer to the people on this one. Democracy says by-pass!

Michael

PS: I'm looking forward to that Moore movie called Sick-O

If the Thai were to abide by patent law millions of Thai would die of AIDS.

No matter what they do, those same millions are going to die of AIDS. There is no cure for AIDS, patented or not. So, with that in mind, they should abide by the patent laws.

Baron Max

No matter what they do, those same millions are going to die of AIDS.
You don't know that.

I know people who have been living full, productive lives with AIDS for over 20 years.

Protecting the profits of pharmaceutical companies is certainly not more important than public heath and welfare.

You don't know that.

Of course I do! Everyone dies. Why is it that you don't know that?

I know people who have been living full, productive lives with AIDS for over 20 years.

And your point is....?

Protecting the profits of pharmaceutical companies is certainly not more important than public heath and welfare.

If you're just going to steal someone's invention or development, why should anyone invent or develop anything?

The drug companies spend billions attempting to develop cures for AIDS as well as other medicines. You think the governments of the world should be allowed to steal their developments? Do you feel the same way about any other developments or inventions?

Baron Max

If you're just going to steal someone's invention or development, why should anyone invent or develop anything? Much, if not almost ALL, of the research is done in the Universities. Certainly all of the basic research that develops the tools as well as the initial experiments.

I think most of this is curiosity driven or ego driven. Certainly most University researchers are not rich by any measure. But even now Universities are being pushed to patent and make more and more money. Many times at the expense of good research as well as Ss education.

The drug companies spend billions attempting to develop cures for AIDS as well as other medicines. Actually Pharm Co. spend much more on marketing than they do on R&D.

You think the governments of the world should be allowed to steal their developments? Do you feel the same way about any other developments or inventions?So if your child had a disease and was going to die without the proper medication (and you simply could never afford that medicine) then you think that the child deserves then to die?

Also, Thailand is not doing anything illegal. Under the WTO they have a right to make any drug patented or not if there is a serious enough need. Isn't an AIDS pandemic serious enough? Lastly, Thailand is an autonomous country. They can do whatever the hell they want with whomever patents.

Our representatives in the USA governments have every right to force you or your loved ones to die of AIDS or a heart attack or any other disease (if you can not pay Big Pharma) but they most certainly do not have the legal right to force Thai to do the same to their people.


It's sad when Thai have better access to health care then US citizens... anyway, unlike the people in the USA, the Thai voted for government Medical and Thailand is an autonomous state after all. They can pass whatever law concerning health care that they like.

Michael


PS: On the side, this always reminds me of this question. Why should children in the USA get free K-12 education? Why shouldn't the schools charge X per head and if you can pay then your kid gets an education and if not then they can start working and get no education? Why do we think it's an inalienable right to education but not to health? Odd that? Especially given that most of the research is performed in State sponsored Uni's.

Future Focus: Patent for a Pig (http://www.vegsoc.org.au/forum_messages.asp?Thread_ID=4951&Topic_ID=12)

Anyone see this program? Jesus, I didn't realize Monsanto had so many employees working in the FDA and that they hush up cancer-linked studies as well as sterility studies. It is impossible in the USA to eat food that is no either genetically modified or living off GM food.

Plus so many USA farmers are being sued out of business by Monsanto - even when they don't want their shit GM food on their land! Simply Amazing!

The farmer who was running his study on cows - Hid entire ranch went sterile eating GM corn yet and he lost his farm. He had 5 remaining cow (4 female 1 male) he took them off the GM maze and on green grass - whithin a year they were all fertile again, He put them on the GM maze and in 3 months they were all sterile.

It is virtually impossible to live in the US and not eat this maze or an animal that lives off it....

That's kind of scary.... .... ... But then I think: Hey, let the Market handle it! The Capitalist Theologians insist this Market force is benevolent so just go with it (then again I don't live in the US anymore... but I may go back for a year or so? Shit! How will I eat???!!!)

Michael

Oh and about that FDA - Monsanto pays people to work in these departments:

* The Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition (CFSAN)
* The Center for Drug Evaluation and Research (CDER)
* The Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research (CBER)
* The Center for Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH)
* The Center for Veterinary Medicine (CVM)
* The National Center for Toxicological Research (NCTR)
* The Office of Regulatory Affairs (ORA)
* The Office of the Commissioner (OC)

These people ensure that Monsanto products quickly pass scrutiny and when they leave they are given high paying positions in Monsanto. That is a fact.

Sicko (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0386032/)


*spoiler warning*



Michael Moore said, "If people ask, we tell them 'Sicko' is a comedy about 45 million people with no health care in the richest country on Earth." He later announced on his site a June release. It has emerged that in the film Michael Moore takes a number of rescue workers injured in the World Trade Center attacks of 2001 to Cuba to receive treatment.


To Cuba? That's pretty sad really,

Michael

Also, Thailand is not doing anything illegal. Under the WTO they have a right to make any drug patented or not if there is a serious enough need. Isn't an AIDS pandemic serious enough? Lastly, Thailand is an autonomous country. They can do whatever the hell they want with whomever patents.

If that's true, then why are we even talking about this topic?

PS: On the side, this always reminds me of this question. Why should children in the USA get free K-12 education?

They don't get free education ...it's paid for with taxes.

Baron Max

I think all useful discoveries should'nt be submited to patent laws. But most of people who work with new tecnologies think about money - and only money ¬¬ - and not about progress.

They don't get free education ...it's paid for with taxes.I find it... "interesting" that practically nobody ever dares to mention this point when someone lobs the idea of so-called "free" health care, like in this thread right here...

I find it... "interesting" that practically nobody ever dares to mention this point when someone lobs the idea of so-called "free" health care, like in this thread right here...

That's funny, because the vast majority of the people I have spoken to NEVER refer to it as "free" healthcare.

If that's true, then why are we even talking about this topic?yes it is true. I just wanted to know what people think about it.

It's odd that people can think that only the rich should be given drugs? AIDS is a pandemic and here we have very cheap drugs that can save millions of lives yet we don't do it.

I for one am happy that the Thai legally stood up and said enough is enough.


They don't get free education ...it's paid for with taxes.I agree, I just think it's odd that we as a society feel the need to pay for schooling but not for health.

Michael

That's funny, because the vast majority of the people I have spoken to NEVER refer to it as "free" healthcare.For two convenient examples, look up at the very first post in this thread right here:

the government is able to give the medicine away for free... Thailand has free health care...

For two convenient examples, look up at the very first post in this thread right here:

SOME people do, of course. :D

It's odd that people can think that only the rich should be given drugs?

Many people get the AIDS drugs, and others, who are not "rich".

AIDS is a pandemic and here we have very cheap drugs that can save millions of lives yet we don't do it.

Those drugs don't cure AIDS, so you're not "saving" anyone. People with AIDS are going to die, plain and simple, and you should accept that without resorting to overly emotional rhetoric.

I for one am happy that the Thai legally stood up and said enough is enough.

Do you celebrate everyone who violates laws, or are you just selective?

I agree, I just think it's odd that we as a society feel the need to pay for schooling but not for health.

State and federal taxes go to hospitals and clinics all over this great nation ...billions of dollars in state and federal funds are provided to hospitals and care facilities. You should do some basic research into it, you'd be very surprised.

Baron Max

If you're just going to steal someone's invention or development, why should anyone invent or develop anything?

Baron Max

Its beyond that Baron. If it weren't I would fully agree with you. This predicament reminds me of another east-world conflict with western patents. Indian traditional medicine has many of the same ingredients as western medical patents. But the Indians are fighting for a free-use encyclopedia of all these naturally existing medicines that people could find and use themselves. But Western drug conglomerates want people to pay them money for the use of these drugs, even though they exist naturally.

Its not that anyone its stealing an idea, its that the drug companies are monopolizing chemical compounds. Did anyone really "invent" these compounds? No, of course not. So why should they be patented? Why should people have to pay for what they can make themselves?

I find it... "interesting" that practically nobody ever dares to mention this point when someone lobs the idea of so-called "free" health care, like in this thread right here...

Lack of a national health care system is also paid for with taxes. When people let their health problems go for lack of insurance, they end up in the emergency room, which ends up costing more than managed care would have.

Its not that anyone its stealing an idea, its that the drug companies are monopolizing chemical compounds. Did anyone really "invent" these compounds? No, of course not.

Of course they did!! They put together other ingredients/chemicals in exactly the correct mixture. Just dumping a bunch of chemicals together ain't gonna' make nothin'.

It takes a vast expenditure in research and development to create the right combination of chemicals to fight some disease. If you allow people to steal that knowledge, then you're no different to a common criminal stealing money for someone who worked for that money. It's just money, right?

So why should they be patented? Why should people have to pay for what they can make themselves?

Then let them make the drugs themselves ....without using the recipe that somene else worked their asses off to find and perfect.

See? What you're doing/thinking is all wrong ...you're support the intellectual theft of people's discoveries. If someone did that to you, how would you feel about all the work and effort and money that you spent discovering it?

Baron Max

Lack of a national health care system is also paid for with taxes. When people let their health problems go for lack of insurance, they end up in the emergency room, which ends up costing more than managed care would have.

Where do you find that information? I think it's wrong by a long sight ...or worse, it's just slanted data that's used in the rhetoric supporting national healthcare.

Baron Max

Then let them make the drugs themselves ....without using the recipe that somene else worked their asses off to find and perfect.

Baron Max

But in some cases, that recipe is the same as traditional medicines that have been around for thousands of years. The only difference is that the people over in India would rather everyone have access to that information, while over here the people who 'discovered' that medicine use a completely western "law" to monopolize the exact same cure. And now they want to take it from the very people who have been using it longer than the drug companies have even been around. Now that is criminal. That is stealing.

But in some cases, that recipe is the same as traditional medicines that have been around for thousands of years.

I believe that we're talking about AIDS drugs ....not aspirin!

Baron Max

I believe that we're talking about AIDS drugs ....not aspirin!

Baron Max

Read these articles and maybe you will better understand my point.

http://www.time.com/time/asia/2006/journey/kerala.html

http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/2138.htm

Lack of a national health care system is also paid for with taxes. When people let their health problems go for lack of insurance, they end up in the emergency room, which ends up costing more than managed care would have. ”

Where do you find that information? I think it's wrong by a long sight ...or worse, it's just slanted data that's used in the rhetoric supporting national healthcare. It's common knowledge. Emergency rooms are going broke all over the US because of that.

It's one of the major drivers in the incredibly high cost of US health care - we spend half again as much per capita as the next most wastrel country, and half the citizenry still isn't getting ordinary first world medical care.

And that doesn't even count the lost productivity, reduced educational levels, etc., from chronic untreated health problems.

It's common knowledge. Emergency rooms are going broke all over the US because of that.

Sure ...because they, the hospitals, take on people who can't pay! It's not the fault of the American taxpayer, it's the fault of the PRIVATE hospitals. If they go broke because they're stupid, so be it.

Baron Max

Many people get the AIDS drugs, and others, who are not "rich". Those drugs don't cure AIDS, so you're not "saving" anyone. People with AIDS are going to die, plain and simple, and you should accept that without resorting to overly emotional rhetoric.Yes they may die of something else and after a long and productive life. Not at the age of 14 or 27.

Do you celebrate everyone who violates laws, or are you just selective?Thailand is not violating the law. They are acting within the Law as the WTO stipulates.

State and federal taxes go to hospitals and clinics all over this great nation ...billions of dollars in state and federal funds are provided to hospitals and care facilities. You should do some basic research into it, you'd be very surprised.

Baron MaxActually, 40 million Americnas have zero insurance. Some have gotten ill and lost EWVERYTHING they worked hard for.

Here in AU, like Canada, Eng, Germany, hell even Japan, everyone has free/tax payer funded Health Care. And I'm glad it is so.

Michael

PS: It's common to say :"free" K-12 education and "free" Health care and mean tax funded.

OIt takes a vast expenditure in research and development to create the right combination of chemicals to fight some disease. If you allow people to steal that knowledge, then you're no different to a common criminal stealing money for someone who worked for that money. It's just money, right?
And that's why I sad it's perfectly find for Big Pham to bend over Americans. But Thailand is Thailand - they are a sovereign nation and can do what they want with what they make.

Surely you'd agree to that???

Michael


Also, about the "stealing" we do celebrate the 4th of July???? ;)