You have no free will. Life did not happen by chance. Chance and free will are illusions. I have no choice in typing these words. My actions were preordained, not by a God, but by physics. Your mind is nothing more than chemical and electronic reactions within your brain caused by the stimulation of your senses. Every thought you ever had is derived from the way your brain(who's compisition is derived from genetics) handles input from your senses.
Matter is infinite, it can neither be created, nor destroyed. It has always existed in it's finite and unchanging quantity. Our current universe is one of many that have existed and will exist in the future. Energy is in a constant cycle of expansion and contraction. At the moment of the big bang that can be said to mark the beggining of our current universe our universes course was set in stone. Every chemical reaction that would lead to Sol, Earth, and Life could be predicted from that point. Humans may never have the capacity to calculate these things, and so the delusion of Free Will may continue, but that's just what it is a delusion. Every molecule will interact with every other molecule a certain way, as soon as the initial state is known you can then derive all following states. In the immortal words of Einstein, "God does not play dice." So although humans will never be able to predict the future, it is not unpredictable. The future is coming....Alea iacta est.

I suppose it's true... If physics is finite, which I also believe it to be, we are nothing but the present state of a very long chain reaction, which could be traced back to the big bang... And so while we may never concieve it, the first second decided it all. Very interesting indeed...

Such is my personal philosophy. I've gotten some very violent reactions to this. People don't like realising they have no control. I thought I'd throw it in Sciforums and see how big a dust cloud I could kick up.

I could see how some people would be unwilling to accept that, but wether or not they accept it doesn't change the fact. The only question I ask is this, consiousness, not the decisions we make, not the feelings we feel or the morals we subscribe too, but the ability to observe/percieve... That is a question... Not that it changes the fact, but makes me wonder what came first...

Angelus wrote:

Energy is in a constant cycle of expansion and contraction. ... Alea iacta est.
Astrophysics made simple ... Cum grano salis. ;)

Angelus,

You've spouted nothing which isn't, at the very least, a variation of something which has been said before. Not only that, it's based on a bunch of scientific assertions and theories which remain unproven. they are merely dogma currently held because we havent found the truth yet.

The only "dust cloud" you're going to see is me running away from yet another example of unoriginal thought.

The idea of having no free will is a belief that we are purely a product of our enviornments. I have a major problem with this philosophy, namely that it leaves no incentive for personal growth, for exercising morals, or in the terms of the ghetto I live in, "No reason to give a shit."

Anothe question is: under this moral premice you have, is their any incentive to become more than you are? To better yourself? I can suscesfully argue a "no" to that question. If you are nothing more than reaction after reaction after reaction, then what is the point of improving yourself? You are what you are made to be, and you can't change.

Xevious wrote:

I have a major problem with this philosophy, namely that it leaves no incentive for ...
The role of philosophy is not to incentivize.

Quoted by Angelus
Your mind is nothing more than chemical and electronic reactions within your brain caused by the stimulation of your senses. Every thought you ever had is derived from the way your brain(who's compisition is derived from genetics) handles input from your senses.

This is yet to be determined and quite a huge assumption. The seat or process of thought and consciousness has not been determined. Additionally, whatever the workings of the mind, it is not a purely input/output mechanism. The mind has the ability to alter its own processes and even its physically arrangement (this has been proven). If the mind were simply an input/output device psychology would be a real science with repeatable results… it's not. Even physics is not purely deterministic… research Superposition, Quantum Entanglement, Chaos Theory, Virtual Particles, etc. This is no longer a Newtonian Universe. Of particular interest to you might be the hypothesis that microtubules and quantum events are related to consciousness.

Matter is infinite, it can neither be created, nor destroyed.

Virtual particles pop in an out of existence seemingly at random. They are both created and destroyed.

It has always existed in it's finite and unchanging quantity.

Any proof of this?

Our current universe is one of many that have existed and will exist in the future.

A possibility, but this is still an unproven hypothesis.

At the moment of the big bang that can be said to mark the beggining of our current universe our universes course was set in stone. Every chemical reaction that would lead to Sol, Earth, and Life could be predicted from that point. Humans may never have the capacity to calculate these things, and so the delusion of Free Will may continue, but that's just what it is a delusion.

Calculated by who or what? If the field is large enough and random enough there is no difference. The flaw in your reasoning here is that what you've just posited can never be proven.

Every molecule will interact with every other molecule a certain way, as soon as the initial state is known you can then derive all following states. In the immortal words of Einstein, "God does not play dice.

Both you and Einstein are wrong here… Einstein's quote was is regards to quantum physics which has been proven quite nicely. Again, research the topics I mentioned above. The Universe is not an orderly place.

~Raithere

Actually this thread should join the countless others (that you could probably find within the Philosophy section)

Admittedly we have no free will, we are like specks of sand being carried around by the currents of a tepid universal ocean.
When people think they have control they might act a little like some microscopic creature flailing it's limbs about to try and cause a drive, but the ocean is too large and it's weight is to great to shift, so the person moves very little in any direction as the current is far stronger.

There is however a future were mankind will attempt to decide wether or not to "Roll" the universes "Dice(die)" and even when he accomplishes that and makes a truly devisable parallel divergant of itself, it will still be a form of dictated replay governed by an already written universe.

Still, it doesn't mean we can't have fun in it.

Myself: Matter is infinite, it can neither be created, nor destroyed. It has always existed in it's finite and unchanging quantity.

Sorry I meant energy.

Xevious: ...namely that it leaves no incentive for personal growth, for exercising morals, or in the terms of the ghetto I live in, "No reason to give a shit."

You have no Free Will in this matter either. Your genetics and environment will determine whether you "give a shit." Accepting this philosophy will just allow you to look around and understand what made you give a shit.

Rathere: (you made too many good points to quote them all)

I'll look into all the topics you suggested. I myself would love to learn mere humans can change the course of the universe. Maybe stop it from recollapsing? ;) One thing though..

:If the mind were simply an input/output device psychology would be a real science with repeatable results

no, because every human has had different input, input is stored and affects all later output. once you run an experiment once the subject now has more input thus a second run of the experiment is not only possibly going to give different results, but it's highly probable as well.

It seems to me that, all things considered, in a determinist Universe, we might not know the difference. Think of it in terms of what Raithere wrote: If the mind were simply an input/output device psychology would be a real science with repeatable results… it's not.

There's at least one thing missing from that statement.

• If the mind is simply an input/output device and ...
• If we should pretend that psychology has accounted for all the factors of a human mind.

Now, psychotherapy ... that's a little more tenuous than the whole of psychology.

But if we stop and think of it that way: how many factors do we need to understand in psychology before it becomes a "real" science? Well, quite a few, obviously. As long as people consider psychology not real, well ... so much for reality.

But in those same terms, if we stop and think of a determinist Universe:

• Who would pretend to recognize and understand all of the factors affecting the determined outcome?

We can take a firecracker and make certain predictions about it according to science. Based on what we know about the powder in it, the volume of that powder, the construction of the firecracker, the conditions in which the firecracker will be applied, &c., we can form a fairly accurate prediction of what the explosion will look like.

Now, say there is the flash, and you catch a glimpse of an irregular piece of material burning up like a cinder. Is that a separate event from the actual explosion? That is, are the natural results of an event separate events in themselves?

What I'm aiming for is to put people in the frame of mind to consider the Universe itself as a single event. The events we mark--starbirth, galactic formation, &c.--are mere facets of the greater process of that Universal firecracker flash.

And in the end, in the field, given the conditions, given all the relevant factors, it is fair to say that the firecracker flash result, whether it matches the predictions or not, occurred in the only way it possibly could.

By the time you recognize a "minor" event (something less than the Universe itself) it is already history. Think about that for a moment as applies to the decisions and passing moments of one's life. By the time you recognize the result of a moment, that result is history, and it could not have been any different without changing the factors that led to it.

As with psychology: sure, it's not entirely firm yet, but neither was biology until the factors lending toward the greater patterns were recognized.

As with the determinist Universe: sure, we pretend we have free will, but if I'm right and the Universe is determined, it's quite obvious that nobody noticed the difference, so I'm not sure it matters whether the Universe is determinist.

I think even physics itself would prove to be deterministic if only humans were smart enough as a species to account for enough factors.

Perhaps that's what evolution is for.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Matter is infinite, it can neither be created, nor destroyed. It has always existed in it's finite and unchanging quantity ????? hmmmmm. good thinking batman. i think ur general idea is good though.

None of you have free will. I am beaming these thoughts into your puny brains from my secret mind-control satellite. Obey... obey... obey...

Why do I suddenly have the urge to take erotic pictures of myself and others and send them to Adam?

Ooooh.

*Places tin-foil hat on head*

Why do I suddenly have the urge to take erotic pictures of myself and others and send them to Adam?Oh, fine ... worry about yourself. Crap, woman, I have to figure out why I'm compelled to go up to the zoo and take erotic pictures of monkeys!

(Do the tinfoil hats really work? I was going to make one, but then I was tempted to make it into a sailboat.)

:D,
Tiassa :cool:

i made a tin foil hat i works great i think.....


(must obey adam...)

We all have heard this before.

Please check out the link for more information.
Does a man choose his own fate? Or is it chosen by others?
http://icaruspharo.tripod.com

It is both 100% of your environment and 100% your choice.

What you experience affects what choices you make.
Reversing time and experiencing the exact same things will make for the exact same decisions.

But don't fool yourself its still your decision. The exact same experience/circumstance might make the exact same mind but a slight variation might mean a complete new person thanks to the ever elusive thing known as consciousness and by extension free will

ahh, but you admit that the exact same circumstances and the exact same genetics will make the exact same person who will make the exact same decisions everytime? how is that free will?

I think that no matter what, neither philosophy is proveable because both philosophies have tremendous supporting evidence.

I believe up to the moment you choose to act you have a choice, else why would you have the thoughts that give an option to pick from choices?

Should you choose one over the other then the train of events will take their course of action. You have the choice to stay home from work and not go. The events that follow are a direct result of that. You will have to prove your claim of predetermined fate before I could grasp that it is even a possibility...

It's really just the outcome of following cause and effect to it's ultimate logical conclusion. What made you decide to stay home from work? There must be a cause, and that cause is the effect of some other cause, etc. etc. With enough data and processing power you can calculate the effect of every cause and that effects effects on others, ad infinitum.

But it was still your choice.

Free will and environment affecting choice is not mutually exclusive.
Its 100% of both

Originally posted by hobbes
But it was still your choice.

Free will and environment affecting choice is not mutually exclusive.
Its 100% of both

mathematically speaking, Hobbes, thats rather improbable.

Personally, i tend not to believe in either free will OR fate. Environmental influence, certainly. Biological influence, yes. cultural influence, definately. There's three factors which almost ensure every human being will be different. "Free Will" is an belief embraced only by those who can't accept the alternative... that we are slaves to circumstance. "Fate" is a belief embraced by those who can't even accept THAT much.

Its not "mathematically improbable"

Its like a orange is both 100% a fruit and 100% edible.
Its called not mutually exclusive.

We have 100% free choice and 100%controlled by our environment.
Our environment controls what choices we make but we are still making those choices.

With a few exceptions like if you were a slave or something. Free choice would then be limited. But even then choices come into play.

If your choice is determined 100% by your genetics and past and circumstances how do you call that free?

free:
Not controlled by obligation or the will of another
Not subject to external restraint

Originally posted by tiassa
There's at least one thing missing from that statement.

• If the mind is simply an input/output device and ...
• If we should pretend that psychology has accounted for all the factors of a human mind.

Not all the factors must be known to get reliable results but I do see your point. I would also add that the volatility of the mind may cause what is actually a deterministic system to be so reactive that one cannot investigate it without changing the outcome of what one is investigating. Much as quantum physics has shown us in the subatomic realm.

Still in 100 years of psychology have we really advanced any further in the understanding of the mind or how it works? Granted, we have gained some insight into the physical-chemical processes of the brain and have had some success with pharmacology. But these tools are rather like fixing a clock with a hammer in regards to the subtlety of the mind.

What I'm aiming for is to put people in the frame of mind to consider the Universe itself as a single event. The events we mark--starbirth, galactic formation, &c.--are mere facets of the greater process of that Universal firecracker flash.

And in the end, in the field, given the conditions, given all the relevant factors, it is fair to say that the firecracker flash result, whether it matches the predictions or not, occurred in the only way it possibly could.

But to perceive the Universe as such you must go outside of time, in which case the Universe is static.

By the time you recognize the result of a moment, that result is history, and it could not have been any different without changing the factors that led to it.

Again, this depends on your temporal frame of reference. What if it were possible to travel backwards in time and affect the past. Ignore for a moment the causal paradoxes this creates in our everyday perception of causality. Eventually, we need to deal with some of these paradoxes either in regards to our causal/temporal perception or in regards to relativity/non-locality.

As with the determinist Universe: sure, we pretend we have free will, but if I'm right and the Universe is determined, it's quite obvious that nobody noticed the difference, so I'm not sure it matters whether the Universe is determinist.

I agree with you here. The truth of the answer does not really matter.

I'll also add a third option, just for fun. Consider that any infinite random series (say of numbers, for example) contains any (and in fact, every) finite ordered set. It is possible then, that we and what we "observe" as the Universe are simply ordered sets within infinite chaos. In which case there is neither free-will nor determinism simply an accident of infinite chaos.

~Raithere