You have no free will. Life did not happen by chance. Chance and free will are illusions. I have no choice in typing these words. My actions were preordained, not by a God, but by physics. Your mind is nothing more than chemical and electronic reactions within your brain caused by the stimulation of your senses. Every thought you ever had is derived from the way your brain(who's compisition is derived from genetics) handles input from your senses. Matter is infinite, it can neither be created, nor destroyed. It has always existed in it's finite and unchanging quantity. Our current universe is one of many that have existed and will exist in the future. Energy is in a constant cycle of expansion and contraction. At the moment of the big bang that can be said to mark the beggining of our current universe our universes course was set in stone. Every chemical reaction that would lead to Sol, Earth, and Life could be predicted from that point. Humans may never have the capacity to calculate these things, and so the delusion of Free Will may continue, but that's just what it is a delusion. Every molecule will interact with every other molecule a certain way, as soon as the initial state is known you can then derive all following states. In the immortal words of Einstein, "God does not play dice." So although humans will never be able to predict the future, it is not unpredictable. The future is coming....Alea iacta est.
I suppose it's true... If physics is finite, which I also believe it to be, we are nothing but the present state of a very long chain reaction, which could be traced back to the big bang... And so while we may never concieve it, the first second decided it all. Very interesting indeed...
Such is my personal philosophy. I've gotten some very violent reactions to this. People don't like realising they have no control. I thought I'd throw it in Sciforums and see how big a dust cloud I could kick up.
I could see how some people would be unwilling to accept that, but wether or not they accept it doesn't change the fact. The only question I ask is this, consiousness, not the decisions we make, not the feelings we feel or the morals we subscribe too, but the ability to observe/percieve... That is a question... Not that it changes the fact, but makes me wonder what came first...
Angelus, You've spouted nothing which isn't, at the very least, a variation of something which has been said before. Not only that, it's based on a bunch of scientific assertions and theories which remain unproven. they are merely dogma currently held because we havent found the truth yet. The only "dust cloud" you're going to see is me running away from yet another example of unoriginal thought.
The idea of having no free will is a belief that we are purely a product of our enviornments. I have a major problem with this philosophy, namely that it leaves no incentive for personal growth, for exercising morals, or in the terms of the ghetto I live in, "No reason to give a shit." Anothe question is: under this moral premice you have, is their any incentive to become more than you are? To better yourself? I can suscesfully argue a "no" to that question. If you are nothing more than reaction after reaction after reaction, then what is the point of improving yourself? You are what you are made to be, and you can't change.
Quoted by Angelus Your mind is nothing more than chemical and electronic reactions within your brain caused by the stimulation of your senses. Every thought you ever had is derived from the way your brain(who's compisition is derived from genetics) handles input from your senses. This is yet to be determined and quite a huge assumption. The seat or process of thought and consciousness has not been determined. Additionally, whatever the workings of the mind, it is not a purely input/output mechanism. The mind has the ability to alter its own processes and even its physically arrangement (this has been proven). If the mind were simply an input/output device psychology would be a real science with repeatable results… it's not. Even physics is not purely deterministic… research Superposition, Quantum Entanglement, Chaos Theory, Virtual Particles, etc. This is no longer a Newtonian Universe. Of particular interest to you might be the hypothesis that microtubules and quantum events are related to consciousness. Matter is infinite, it can neither be created, nor destroyed. Virtual particles pop in an out of existence seemingly at random. They are both created and destroyed. It has always existed in it's finite and unchanging quantity. Any proof of this? Our current universe is one of many that have existed and will exist in the future. A possibility, but this is still an unproven hypothesis. At the moment of the big bang that can be said to mark the beggining of our current universe our universes course was set in stone. Every chemical reaction that would lead to Sol, Earth, and Life could be predicted from that point. Humans may never have the capacity to calculate these things, and so the delusion of Free Will may continue, but that's just what it is a delusion. Calculated by who or what? If the field is large enough and random enough there is no difference. The flaw in your reasoning here is that what you've just posited can never be proven. Every molecule will interact with every other molecule a certain way, as soon as the initial state is known you can then derive all following states. In the immortal words of Einstein, "God does not play dice. Both you and Einstein are wrong here… Einstein's quote was is regards to quantum physics which has been proven quite nicely. Again, research the topics I mentioned above. The Universe is not an orderly place. ~Raithere
Actually this thread should join the countless others (that you could probably find within the Philosophy section) Admittedly we have no free will, we are like specks of sand being carried around by the currents of a tepid universal ocean. When people think they have control they might act a little like some microscopic creature flailing it's limbs about to try and cause a drive, but the ocean is too large and it's weight is to great to shift, so the person moves very little in any direction as the current is far stronger. There is however a future were mankind will attempt to decide wether or not to "Roll" the universes "Dice(die)" and even when he accomplishes that and makes a truly devisable parallel divergant of itself, it will still be a form of dictated replay governed by an already written universe. Still, it doesn't mean we can't have fun in it.
Myself: Matter is infinite, it can neither be created, nor destroyed. It has always existed in it's finite and unchanging quantity. Sorry I meant energy. Xevious: ...namely that it leaves no incentive for personal growth, for exercising morals, or in the terms of the ghetto I live in, "No reason to give a shit." You have no Free Will in this matter either. Your genetics and environment will determine whether you "give a shit." Accepting this philosophy will just allow you to look around and understand what made you give a shit. Rathere: (you made too many good points to quote them all) I'll look into all the topics you suggested. I myself would love to learn mere humans can change the course of the universe. Maybe stop it from recollapsing? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! One thing though.. :If the mind were simply an input/output device psychology would be a real science with repeatable results no, because every human has had different input, input is stored and affects all later output. once you run an experiment once the subject now has more input thus a second run of the experiment is not only possibly going to give different results, but it's highly probable as well.
Of course Free Will is an illusion It seems to me that, all things considered, in a determinist Universe, we might not know the difference. Think of it in terms of what Raithere wrote: If the mind were simply an input/output device psychology would be a real science with repeatable results… it's not. There's at least one thing missing from that statement. • If the mind is simply an input/output device and ... • If we should pretend that psychology has accounted for all the factors of a human mind. Now, psychotherapy ... that's a little more tenuous than the whole of psychology. But if we stop and think of it that way: how many factors do we need to understand in psychology before it becomes a "real" science? Well, quite a few, obviously. As long as people consider psychology not real, well ... so much for reality. But in those same terms, if we stop and think of a determinist Universe: • Who would pretend to recognize and understand all of the factors affecting the determined outcome? We can take a firecracker and make certain predictions about it according to science. Based on what we know about the powder in it, the volume of that powder, the construction of the firecracker, the conditions in which the firecracker will be applied, &c., we can form a fairly accurate prediction of what the explosion will look like. Now, say there is the flash, and you catch a glimpse of an irregular piece of material burning up like a cinder. Is that a separate event from the actual explosion? That is, are the natural results of an event separate events in themselves? What I'm aiming for is to put people in the frame of mind to consider the Universe itself as a single event. The events we mark--starbirth, galactic formation, &c.--are mere facets of the greater process of that Universal firecracker flash. And in the end, in the field, given the conditions, given all the relevant factors, it is fair to say that the firecracker flash result, whether it matches the predictions or not, occurred in the only way it possibly could. By the time you recognize a "minor" event (something less than the Universe itself) it is already history. Think about that for a moment as applies to the decisions and passing moments of one's life. By the time you recognize the result of a moment, that result is history, and it could not have been any different without changing the factors that led to it. As with psychology: sure, it's not entirely firm yet, but neither was biology until the factors lending toward the greater patterns were recognized. As with the determinist Universe: sure, we pretend we have free will, but if I'm right and the Universe is determined, it's quite obvious that nobody noticed the difference, so I'm not sure it matters whether the Universe is determinist. I think even physics itself would prove to be deterministic if only humans were smart enough as a species to account for enough factors. Perhaps that's what evolution is for. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
None of you have free will. I am beaming these thoughts into your puny brains from my secret mind-control satellite. Obey... obey... obey...
Why do I suddenly have the urge to take erotic pictures of myself and others and send them to Adam? Ooooh. *Places tin-foil hat on head*
Monkey Mania? Oh, fine ... worry about yourself. Crap, woman, I have to figure out why I'm compelled to go up to the zoo and take erotic pictures of monkeys! (Do the tinfoil hats really work? I was going to make one, but then I was tempted to make it into a sailboat.) Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
A NEW PLAY on FREE WILL Please check out the link for more information. Does a man choose his own fate? Or is it chosen by others? http://icaruspharo.tripod.com
It is both 100% of your environment and 100% your choice. What you experience affects what choices you make. Reversing time and experiencing the exact same things will make for the exact same decisions. But don't fool yourself its still your decision. The exact same experience/circumstance might make the exact same mind but a slight variation might mean a complete new person thanks to the ever elusive thing known as consciousness and by extension free will
