Y'know, I realize that most of these posts deal with the differences between our various faiths. I guess that's what a debate forum is all about, but I think it would be a nice change of pace to try to discover what is common to all of our faiths.

Anyone game? I want to include everyone too, even the atheists and those still looking for their path. So for that crowd, instead of faith, perhaps you can substitute your personal moral structure or something? I think that would work hand in hand because I think a large part of the focus of most religions is in the day-to-day behaviours and morals of it's followers.

Hello
What they all have in common? Laws for the goverence and conduct of the people. Every religion has laws that were passed on to them from God. And further much of these laws are in agreeance. The problems start when each individual religion acts as hough their laws do not apply to other religions. The Old Testament Laws did not apply to the Gentile, Thou shalt not kill actually meant; Jew shall not kill Jew. It really is sad that people do concentrate on the little differences and ignore the larger agreement.When Jesus said 'do unto others...' he meant the whole race of man.
Treat everyone the way you want to be treated. The good old golden rule. If everyone would just do that, life would be so much nicer. Then the body of man could concentrate on those people who refuse to live in peace. ie; child molesters...
IMO

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I am where there is need, I am not where no need exists, I am a staff to lean on, a lamp to light the way, I am shelter from the storm and yet I am the storm that rages around you.
susan mcmanaway

MoonCat,

Good topic! Hmmmm...how about "The Golden Rule", or some facsimile thereof? Most religions seem to advocate being loving, kind and charitable to one another, not lying, stealing, cheating, murdering, etc. - just generally good moral values that promote tolerance and good will (well, sometimes :) ). Most, in some way, worship and/or call on the divine, whatever they perceive that to be.

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Good stuff!

I think ritual is another common thread. Ritual specifically designed to enhance and/or strengthen your personal relationship with the Divine.

Celebration of holidays (holy days) is common to most religions, I think. Isn't there a couple of religions that restrict people to only celebrating religious holiday(s)? Don't the 7th day adventists do that? Not allowed to celebrate birthdays, etc? Can't remember.

Hello All ~
MoonCat, good topic. Although the only thing I have to interject is Jehovah's Witnesses also believe in only celebrating their religious holidays.
Remember my reluctant house guest,(S)? She's a witness, *chortle*, and was telling me about their beliefs.
Something else got me to thinking. I couldn't agree more with yourself, Jester and Searcher.
Another thing that they all have in common is that they all believe that they are "right", therefore all others are wrong.

[This message has been edited by Heathen (edited July 11, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Heathen (edited July 11, 2000).]

MC,

Good idea smarty-pants! About rituals, or any kind of "act", and this even pertains to the golden rule as well, my belief is that "rightness" or "correctness" or "goodness" or "worship" comes by faith, or it is meaningless. Like, in your opinion, or Searcher's too, is the golden rule a relative thing? If you want to be treated badly, or if you don't understand what being treated well even is, then how will you treat others? Is your motivation in treating others well, so that you will be treated well? So that the world will be a more peaceful place for you to live in, or because it's just the right thing to do? Then we get into, ok then, what's right? Don't get me wrong, the golden rule is biblical, and it has it's place as a tool to check your perspective and behavior with, but do you think it abolishes the notion of absolute truth regarding spiritual law?

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Luke 10:
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Mark 12:
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.


And I ask you all a question:

What is this "love"?


Allcare

Tony H2o


http://www.inspired-tech.com/dovebar1.gif

Yes lets not forget ritual. But ritual is not just religious, it's also personal. And the I'm right so you're wrong, the one thing that I have had personal problems with. I can't accept that people of different religions are doomed to hell, because their own faith is so strong, they can't shift their beliefs.
As for why to do it, (treat people...), I would dare say both. I treat others the way I want to be treated for both reasons. because it's the right thing to do, and because I would hope to have someone return the favor. Sometimes it's hard, I mean how do you decide when to risk the danger to help? Anymore with all the different epople pulling scams to rip you off, ... It can be hard.
On and On and On....
Sorry
peace


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I am where there is need, I am not where no need exists, I am a staff to lean on, a lamp to light the way, I am shelter from the storm and yet I am the storm that rages around you.
susan mcmanaway

I hate ritual. I find ritual useless (to me, but I understand the impact of ritual on the human psyche), and have been taking steps to get it out of my life. I think I have succeeded. Of course, there is a difference between "ritual" and "routine", so my habit of logging on during breakfast isn't a ritual.

At the root of my belief system is that a person respect others until they prove unworthy of that respect. You know, don't steal their stuff, don't screw them over, keep your mitts off their spouses, certainly don't kill them. That's not to say that it's okay to do this when they prove unworthy. If they do lose your respect, interact with them only when necessary. ("Hey, dillweed. Your house is on fire..."). Always keep in mind, however, that you have to be worthy of someone else's respect, so behave in a respectable manner.

I think the classical "Golden Rule" is the one we all agree on. Respect for others and their property should be our default setting. Cross the line, however, and we are likely to encounter an adage I saw on the back end of a '67 Pontiac: Peace...until you piss me off.

[This message has been edited by Oxygen (edited July 12, 2000).]

Tony,

Love is faith. That God is who He says He is, and that we are all who He says we are. Is it impossible to truly love they neighbor as thyself without faith in God? It seems to me that it would be.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Ok guys, what about prayer, and spells, and positive affirmations, and the like? Are these all the same phenomena at work? Are these based upon the same spiritual law? Is it that what we believe to be true becomes true? That what we think about actually materializes? That what we speak manifests? This is taught in the Bible. And it's all about faith in the Bible. You have to honestly believe that God will answer prayer, in order to have a prayer answered. You can't not really be sure about God, but think "Well God, if you're real, or if you're listening, then do this or that for me". If you don't believe it will happen, then it won't. And then we could get into the God's will vs our own will issue. I've struggled with this one. You don't trust your own will, so why ask for something of your own will from God? But the Bible says that anything you ask shall be given through faith. Even if it's a bad thing?? *shrug* I don't know? See, I look at this phenomenon, and I can't help but seeing a set of spiritual laws, just like physical laws, at work around us. I wish that we knew as much about them as we do about the physical laws. All the scientists are atheists. :rolleyes:

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Wow, you guys have been busy!

Okay, Oxygen, I'm curious what differences you see bewt. ritual & routine. I do agree they are different, but the difference is eluding me at the moment. I find it interesting that you "hate" ritual, as well! Is it just because of the religious overtones to such a thing? I have a favorite relaxation ritual I developed years before I was any kind of 'theist, it involves a good book, a hot bath, and a joint. :) Works quite well, I might add.

Lori,

Well, my version of the "golden rule" is stated in Searcher's new sig. line: If it harms none, do as you will. Is "harm" subjective? I guess it is, it's a hard thing to deal with - we must cause harm to live, it's a simple fact that life exists at the expense of other life. I think "truth" is subjective as well, it depends on perspective. If you hold up a disk and look at it, you'd say it's a circle. Someone 90 degrees from you would say it's a line. That kind of thing. It's up to each individual to interpret the "laws" to the best of their ability, and do their best to minimize the negative effects of their life on others.

"Ok guys, what about prayer, and spells, and positive affirmations, and the like? Are these all the same phenomena at work? "

Yeah, I would have to say so. Slightly different ways to accomplish the same results.

"If you don't believe it will happen, then it won't. "

Same deal with spellwork. You have to be sure it will work, and then it will.

"See, I look at this phenomenon, and I can't help but seeing a set of spiritual laws, just like physical laws, at work around us. I wish that we knew as much about them as we do about the physical laws"

I couldn't agree with you more. :)

Heathen,

"Another thing that they all have in common is that they all believe that they are "right", therefore all others are wrong."

Buzz! :) One thing common to most pagans is the "many roads, one source" theory. All religions are as correct as eachother - that actually, they are all innacurate and can never be completely right. The truth is too huge to be enclosed in any one book or belief. SOME religions state that they are the ONE true path, in fact maybe most. But not quite all. ;)

But the Bible says that anything you ask shall be given through faith. Even if it's a bad thing?? *shrug* I don't know?

Lori,

Well, my mother is a born-again Christian, and she had to care for her father who was old and infirm, for quite some time. The burden finally got to be too great for her, and she actually prayed to have that burden removed from her shoulders. Her father died soon afterwards.

I don't think it matters what you pray for (or cast spells for) - if you believe, you will receive that which you ask for. Just be sure it's really what you want first, and make sure it won't harm anyone else, and be clear in your request.

This is kind of related - during the playoffs between the Sacramento Kings and the Seattle Sonics back a few years ago (April of 1996), Sacramento's slogan was "Rattle Seattle", which was chanted loudly by the fans. One evening, when the game was being held in Sacramento, there was an earthquake in Seattle, which was about 5.0 on the Richter scale and actually caused some damage to the Kingdome there (Tiassa, do you remember this?). I was quite impressed by this and kept a copy of the flyer with that slogan printed on it to remind me how literally the universe takes your requests.

So be careful what you ask for and how you ask for it - 'cuz you're gonna get it! :)

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

The difference between ritual and routine is that ritual involves symbolic actions that give no direct practical reward. Routine is based more on methodical actions that provide direct practical reward. For example, your good book, hot bath, and joint are a method of relaxation. If you did something that had no bearing on the direct practicality of the use of bed, bath, and blunt, for example (and only as an example) turning all of the bottles in the medicine cabinet so that the labels face the bath (presumably to encourage good health in this example), then that aspect is ritual. It has no direct, tangible effect on your relaxation except that in your mind you have performed the ritual and can now relax properly.

I hate ritual because, for myself at least, I find it silly. The actions accomplish nothing practical. Putting a semi-plastic wafer on the tongue brings you no closer to heavenly paradise than washing your car or doing your dishes. A marriage performed in a church with flowers and bridesmaids and ushers is no stronger than one established with a couple of signatures on a piece of paper.

I do believe in celebrations. I don't stay home on New Year's. I go out and make noise with the rest of the amateur drunks. Accepting an invitation to a party is not a ritual. It's mandatory :)!

Rest assured, however, that I am not a boor. When I go to someone else's house, I respect their routines as well as their rituals. If the shoes stay outside, then the shoes stay outside. If the bathroom is to be entered walking backwards, then the bathroom is to be entered walking backwards. I'll still think it's silly, but I'll do it. It's part of the oil that makes the social machine run smoother.

Oxygen,

Hmmm... Okay, I see what you're saying now.

I do think ritual is valuable though. The mind is a powerful thing, and ritual is basically a way (for me anyway) of communicating much more directly with that symbolic part of my brain.

I read in Starhawk's "Spiral Dance" about Younger Self, Talking Self, and Deeper Self. Not her original theory, can't remember who it belonged to, but basically Younger Self is our "subconscious" mind, the highly symbolic part of our mental self that does all the 'background' work, runs intuition and things more nebulous. The Talking Self is the 'conscious" mind - the part of our brain we use to do daily things, and most of our thinking and communicating.

Ritual gets Younger Self to talk to Talking Self better. Kind of a Pavlovian thing, you find the symbols that make sense to you 'somehow' and use those symbols to get Talking Self in line with what Younger Self already knows.

I remember reading somewhere that your subconscious mind has a virtually photographic memory. That's why if you describe a scene in as much detail you can remember, if you are hypnotized you can come up with even more details, and almost re-live the experience. Through ritual, you can bring that subconscious self to the fore and consciously enter that situation, sort of meld the two parts together, and come out of it with a better conscious memory of things.

But, having said all of that, if ritual doesn't work for you, than it simply doesn't. :) If you believe it will work, it will, if you believe it's silly, it'll make you laugh at yourself for doing it.

I consider myself rather lucky that ritual does have an effect on me, I'm grateful my Younger Self/subconscious mind is on such good terms with my Talking Self/conscious mind. I think my Younger Self is much smarter than my Talking Self. How many times have you had to "sleep on" a math problem or any other kind of problem and woken up with the answer right there? Happens to me all the time. That's Younger Self answering you while Talking Self is sleeping. Talking Self tends to drown out what Younger Self is saying. I'm trying to learn how to make Talking Self shut up during the day, so Younger Self can peek out and give me some answers. I believe that's mainly what any good self-reading on Tarot cards or rune stones is. The symbols of the cards or stones or whatever speaks directly to Younger Self, Talking Self just sees cards and rocks so ignores them. But Younger Self knows the score!! :)

Wonderfully put. I actually do read Tarot cards. I don't believe that they can see the future, but I do believe that they jog the subconscious. People I read for usually end up solving their own problems because of the way the images start attaching themselves to things in their minds. They thank me for reading the cards for them (I never accept payment), and I tell them to thank themselves.

I actually do read Tarot cards. I don't believe that they can see the future, but I do believe that they jog the subconscious. People I read for usually end up solving their own problems because of the way the images start attaching themselves to things in their minds

I just wanted to comment thatthis is right on for my own regard for tarot.

I'm too drunk to offer a good metaphor.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

I never seen a man eat so many chicken wings....I never seen a man eat so many chicken wings....I never seen a man eat so many chicken wings! I never seen a man eat so many chicken wings!!! I never seen a man eat so many chicken wings!!!!!!!!!!