At their home in Leipzig, Patrick Stuebing and Susan Karolewski are in the kitchen, playing with a young toddler.

They share a small flat in an east German tower block on the outskirts of the city. It looks like an ordinary family scene, but Patrick is Susan's brother and they are lovers.

Patrick, who is 30 years old, was adopted and, as a child, he lived in Potsdam.

He did not meet his mother and biological family until he was 23. He travelled to Leipzig with a friend in 2000, determined to make contact with his other relatives.

He met his sister Susan for the first time, and according to the couple, after their mother died, they fell in love.

Patrick and Susan have been living together for the last six years, and they now have four children.

All but one of the couple's children have been taken into care

Incest is a criminal offence in Germany. Patrick Stuebing has already served a two-year sentence for committing incest and there is another jail term looming if paragraph 173 of the legal code is not overturned.

The couple's lawyer, Endrik Wilhelm, has lodged an appeal with Germany's highest judicial body, the federal Constitutional Court in Karlsruhe, in order to overturn the country's ban on incest.

In 2004, Patrick voluntarily underwent a vasectomy.

"It's legal for the couple to live together, and to share a bed. But they are breaking the law once they have sex. If there are no more children, then who will be able to prove that they are a couple?" asked their lawyer.

Dr Wilhelm said a ruling was expected in the next few months.

"Many criminal law experts say that we are right and I'm confident that my clients will win their case. The law against incest is based on very old moral principles. The law was abolished in France, it's about time it should be scrapped here in Germany as well."



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6424937.stm

Thoughts?

what matters of the law forbidding or not...the poor children now probably have some sort of disorders. Whats' of love if its blind and deadly?

Actually, there is very little chance that a first-generation incestual union will produce a freakish child.

Who cares?

Baron Max

Who cares?

Baron Max
Baron Max.

Just one more of many, many cases of situations where other people are stickin' their noses into something that's none of their business!

Baron Max

Thoughts?
what goes on between two consenting adults is really nobodys business.
the biggest problem i have with this is what does it mean for societys gene pool.

It is the logical extension of "private adults can do what they want".

But then it becomes a matter of "should kids have to suffer with the possible results"?

It is the logical extension of "private adults can do what they want".

But then it becomes a matter of "should kids have to suffer with the possible results"?Kids suffer from breeding already. Downs Syndrome, handicaps, abuse, the list goes on.

You think everyone is going to go out now and start making babies with their sisters? Enough to fuck up the gene pool?

:confused:
i get kind of crazy about stuff like that.
for example there was cojoined siamese twins, joined at the head.
they came to america to get seperated.
the seperation was successfull.
i was thinking they both should be sterilized.
no, i'm not an asshole, just someone that is concerned about a healthy society.

You think everyone is going to go out now and start making babies with their sisters? Enough to fuck up the gene pool?

:confused:

maybe. afterall we cannot go around naked. WHY?

Genji:

Kids suffer from breeding already. Downs Syndrome, handicaps, abuse, the list goes on.

Birth-defects aren't usually caused by such terrible behaviour, though.

i get kind of crazy about stuff like that.
for example there was cojoined siamese twins, joined at the head.
they came to america to get seperated.
the seperation was successfull.
i was thinking they both should be sterilized.
no, i'm not an asshole, just someone that is concerned about a healthy society.
Why should they be sterilised?

There is no evidence that their being conjoined was due to genetic reasons. The same applies to any set of conjoined twins. Scientists don't even know why it happens. Conjoined twins usually happen on around the 13th day of conception when the twins are meant to separate into their own egg sacks and if that separation fails, conjoined twins can occur. Unless you wish to regulate or test to ensure people do not have identical twins (conjoined twins tend to be identical twins), there is no way to prevent it.

Many people who are twins do not have twins as children so there is no indication that conjoined twins (if they are able to have children and some can since they might be born joined with only a small part of their skin for example) will go on to have conjoined twins themselves. So your concern, while interesting, is really kind of pointless.

------------------------------------------------------------------

What I don't understand with this story is that they knew they were brother and sister when they actually fell in love. I know you can't really help who you are attracted to, but come on?..

I just think this is a really sad story. The whole line of thought of 'what in the hell were you thinking' keeps flowing through my mind when I think of this case.:(

Gross.

Solution:
When in doubt, persecute.


The West needs to bring back stoning. The stort with a village and large rocks.

Just one more of many, many cases of situations where other people are stickin' their noses into something that's none of their business!

Baron Max

Wait, weren't you the guy who had trouble with gays.
Oh. I think I see. You don't want the government sanctioning it.
But then, the government shouldn't sanction anybody's relationship. That
sticking their noses....etc.
So if they're sticking their noses in. Might as well be fair about it. Or stay out.

Doesn't your concern about rules and laws changing also make this problematical for you.

I mean incest used to be illegal. Still is.

We can't just change the rules for that small group that wants to have sex with their sibling.

Or?

I think that incest should not be illegal, but having kids from such a relationship should.
Any way, if you're not having kids, it's pretty easy to hide what goes on in your bedroom, lest you sell porn videos.

What I don't understand with this story is that they knew they were brother and sister when they actually fell in love. I know you can't really help who you are attracted to, but come on?..

Hmm, that's almost exactly the same argument that's used against homos and lezzies, ain't it? Geez, Bells, I'm surprised at you! :D

Baron Max

Hmm, that's almost exactly the same argument that's used against homos and lezzies, ain't it? Geez, Bells, I'm surprised at you! :D

Baron Max

Bells is not only one who needs to look at posts on both topics. See above.

One difference, to help Bells out, is that if you are only sexually attracted to men and you are a man, well, leaving the current partner doesn't help.

But a man who finds himself attracted to his sister, well, he's got options.

I actually think we should leave this bro sis couple alone.

They weren't raised together.

Gray areas abound.

...if you are only sexually attracted to men and you are a man, well, leaving the current partner doesn't help. But a man who finds himself attracted to his sister, well, he's got options.

Huh? Gays and lezzies have options, too. What the hell are you talkin' about? You're either trying to confuse me or you're confused yourself.

Baron Max

Hmm, that's almost exactly the same argument that's used against homos and lezzies, ain't it? Geez, Bells, I'm surprised at you! :D

Baron Max

I swear Baron, you make my teeth hurt.

Are these two homosexuals? No. They are sibblings who after having been 'long lost' discovered each other's existence and after a time, fell in love. It's damn sad. Had they been two brothers or two sisters, my response would have been the same. Even if they were both homosexuals, I would have asked myself the same question.. 'aren't there more people in the world you could pick or feel attracted to, who aren't related to you?'..

Their situation is as bad as it gets. He faces jail for having fallen in love and I hate to imagine the hell she will go through for the same reason. They have lost custody of their children and now basically face the ire of society.

Just the whole brother and sister thing gets me (since you know, there are other women out there who aren't your sister, etc), but it is a personal issue and not one anyone else should be involved in. They were both adults when they became involved and one would imagine consenting adults. It's just a sad situation and I too think they should be left alone.

I'm an only child, so I can't really comment on this. However, I do find it interesting how having sex with your sister, who you have known for all of your life, is seen as immoral. Yet having a one night stand with some stranger in the bar (who likely doesn't give a shit about you) is not immoral. I don't feel 'comfortable' with either, but that doesn't automatically make such unions immoral.

Hmmmm.

Solution:
When in doubt, persecute.


that's execute.

Not like there ain't 6 billion more crazy hairless rebel monkeys runnin' around !
;)

Forbid people from having children because of potential complications? That's one big old can o' worms.
Should people with inherited disorders be sterilised?

I'm interested in the "taken into care" bit. The implication is that the children were put into foster homes because of the parent's crime... is that the case? Or were they put into medical care?

A point to note:
The article says that two of their children have some degree of special needs, and quotes a geneticist that 50% of children born to siblings are disabled.

Given that a superstitious tribe of monotheists wandering the desert for some forty years without a home can figure out that incest causes problems, I'm hard-pressed to find an argument in favor of incestuous relationships. But that's just me.

Given that a superstitious tribe of monotheists wandering the desert for some forty years without a home can figure out that incest causes problems, I'm hard-pressed to find an argument in favor of incestuous relationships. But that's just me.

How do we know that they could figure out any such thing?

How do we know that they could figure out any such thing?
Ermmm maybe by the fact that they knew enough to not even allow related animals that travelled with them to mate with each other due to the deformities that would result. Animal husbandry..

I'm an only child, so I can't really comment on this. However, I do find it interesting how having sex with your sister, who you have known for all of your life, is seen as immoral. Yet having a one night stand with some stranger in the bar (who likely doesn't give a shit about you) is not immoral. I don't feel 'comfortable' with either, but that doesn't automatically make such unions immoral.

That's the thing though. She is your sister that you have known all your life.

I too am an only child. However I had lots of cousins around me at all times and not once did I even feel an attraction to any of my male relatives. Just thinking about it makes me cringe. I have cousin's in France and other parts of the world that I have only met once or twice in my lifetime and I can say with certainty that I would never even consider it, nor would it enter my mind.

But these two, they knew they were related and when the attraction began, they kept living together and, well, one would say kept allowing it to continue. As I said before, I feel sorry for them and think at this point they should just be left alone. The damage is done and you can't turn back time. At the same time I also keep asking myself how this could have happened. The question of 'what in the hell were you thinking' is repeated in my mind.

What has had me thinking however is the children. Even if the children are not born with any abnormalities and are allowed to live with them, would they tell their children that it is 'ok' for them to have a relationship with each other? Because if the children also have a sexual relationship with each other as sibblings, then this would surely increase the risk of abnormalities that incest can produce, seeing that the children are themselves a product of incest.

As Robert Anton Heinlein once wrote in a story, "If it's sinful it's more fun".

So to is my feeling on this matter... go find the story about a female that met her cousin years after they'd been apart, then she heard all her friends saying he was HOT and couldn't resist him. They were in the same bed during some sorta party being thrown, she had her panties on and his underwear was off... he got turned on and just banged the girl. It's on that site umm I'll look later I'm at work :L

.....he got turned on and just banged the girl.

Well, geez, that's what women are for, for god's sake! In fact, other than cleaning and caring for the kids, that's about all that they're good for! :D

Baron Max

Actually, there is very little chance that a first-generation incestual union will produce a freakish child.

tell that to the Queen Victoria of England and her descendants...:D

Draqon:

What is wrong with them?

Draqon:

What is wrong with them?

cougcoughhemophiliacougcough

That's irrelevant, draqon.
Queen Victoria passed the hemophilia gene on without any help from Prince Alfred (who was her cousin). The result would have been the same no matter who the father was.

I remember the first time I had 'forbidden love'.
Her soft hair, felt like silk against my fingers, her teeth etching tender maps on my shoulder as I ponunded her.
She scratched me, something aweful, but I could not stop, even when I felt the warm blood reach my sweaty butt-crack.

Then it was over and her soft purring was my reward.
I gave her a dish of milk and she gave me that cold glance before she ran for the window.

Well, geez, that's what women are for, for god's sake! In fact, other than cleaning and caring for the kids, that's about all that they're good for! :D

Baron Max

Why not post your real name and address here and show that you are a man who can stand by your principles?

Baron Max:

You're being called out, son!

OOooooooooooHHHHHHHHHH!

Why not post your real name and address here and show that you are a man who can stand by your principles?

And that would prove ......what???

Baron Max

Baron Max: You're being called out, son!

OOooooooooooHHHHHHHHHH!

I was quivering in my boots with abject fear. :D

Baron Max

And that would prove ......what???

Baron Max

It would show that you don't mind, for example, women reading the shit you post about them while they also know precisely who you are. In other words so that some of the sexist shit you write could actually reach people you come into contact with. You know, so word could get around.

For some reason you find your own thoughts on women as somehow kinda cool. Like some drunk frat guy drunk in the corner waxing profound on what women are for.

You also are critical of wimps and generally have a kind of tought guy libertarian stance.

Live up to it.

You could show us you are not afraid to stand by your words, like the macho non-wimp you are. Why continue spouting adolescent comments while hiding behind an adolescent fake name, Baron?

Role model non-wimpiness.

And that would prove ......what???

Baron Max

And you're still a hypocrite.
Gays and lesbians can't be allowed to do something. Laws and rules can't be changed to help certain groups.

But it's OK for for those who want to commit incest to commit incest. Talk about changing morality and rules over time.

You try to find some abstract rule to justify your own prejudices, but the contradictions you create for yourself, you never notice.

Why continue spouting adolescent comments while hiding behind an adolescent fake name, Baron?

Hmm. I'm not sure. Might be because regardless of who or where or what kind of a person you are, it's absolutely stupid to post your real name and address on a public forum? :shrug:

Hmm. I'm not sure. Might be because regardless of who or where or what kind of a person you are, it's absolutely stupid to post your real name and address on a public forum? :shrug:

I agee, actually. But my personality is not based on the idea that if someone is having a problem they are weak somehow. His is.

Am I expecting him to stand by what he's written? No.

Really, I am pointing out that all his macho posing is just that, posing.

Spouting sexist crap when no one knows who he is, is cowardly. He gets to express his hate publicly without taking responsibility for it.

Listening to him treat a whole group like shit and not calling him on it, not only reinforces his own stupidity, but it spreads further the idea that thinking women as just sexual objects for men is just another thought, just another opinion.

You have a sister or a mother perhaps. Baron Max thinks they are simply things to be fucked. And he says it.

Just wanted to point that out.

By the way, you could have pointed out that he was spouting crap and tried to make me feel silly for daring him to stand by his words.

I assume you thought it was more important to point out the error in my thinking than the error in his.

Or perhaps you agree with him.

By the way, you could have pointed out that he was spouting crap and tried to make me feel silly for daring him to stand by his words.

I assume you thought it was more important to point out the error in my thinking than the error in his.

Or perhaps you agree with him.

Or maybe you just need to lighten up. How often do you see a post like the one Baron made taken seriously? How is your "calling him out" going to get any actual results? Now he'll just push your (now revealed to be easy) buttons whenever he feels like it.

Honestly, calling someone out on the Internet. :poke:

Or maybe you just need to lighten up. How often do you see a post like the one Baron made taken seriously? How is your "calling him out" going to get any actual results? Now he'll just push your (now revealed to be easy) buttons whenever he feels like it.

Honestly, calling someone out on the Internet. :poke:

I see you are having a lot of trouble with this. One could almost say it was one of your buttons. Don't worry, I won't use it against you as you seem to be afraid he will against me. Hell, he hasn't even responded at all and I got one thank you via PM, so your fears about the absurdity of what I did seem exaggerated, to say the least. I have nothing more to say to him in any case.

You take things too literally and you are making assumptions about who I was communicating with, or only with.

Take it easy. I'll leave the thread and the Baron to ya.

I see you are having a lot of trouble with this. One could almost say it was one of your buttons. Don't worry, I won't use it against you as you seem to be afraid he will against me. Hell, he hasn't even responded at all and I got one thank you via PM, so your fears about the absurdity of what I did seem exaggerated, to say the least. I have nothing more to say to him in any case.

You take things too literally and you are making assumptions about who I was communicating with, or only with.

Take it easy. I'll leave the thread and the Baron to ya.

Heh, whatever you say Granty. :)

Incest is a strange subject... I don't see anything wrong with someone having sex with one of their siblings, but there's the problem of children that may result from such an act. I don't know anything about it, because I'm not particularly interested in the subject, but I've read on these forums that children conceived through incest tend to get the recessive genes. So.. what's wrong with that?
I remember the first time I had 'forbidden love'.
Her soft hair, felt like silk against my fingers, her teeth etching tender maps on my shoulder as I ponunded her.
She scratched me, something aweful, but I could not stop, even when I felt the warm blood reach my sweaty butt-crack.

Then it was over and her soft purring was my reward.
I gave her a dish of milk and she gave me that cold glance before she ran for the window.HehSpouting sexist crap when no one knows who he is, is cowardly. He gets to express his hate publicly without taking responsibility for it.Doesn't EVERYONE on discussion forums express their bullshit opinions without giving their names?
Listening to him treat a whole group like shit and not calling him on itDoes Baron Max have less freedom to express his opinions without fear of bigots(yes, bigots: those intolerant of others' opinions) harassing them? Oh yeah... WOW! You're awesome. Challenging an old man to post his name and address on the internet. What are you going to do? Turn into the Incredible Hulk and smash up his house? Anyway...if someone anywhere on the internet really makes you that mad that you feel you need to do something about it...come visit me 254 Mesabi, Sharon PA, 16146, in the US.. Ok? Then you can blow off some steam or whatever; I get stressed sometimes too....except I only get stressed about real life. Oh yeah, my name's Frank Tursack V... lol
it spreads further the idea that thinking women as just sexual objects for men is just another thought, just another opinion.How is it not just another opinion? I mean... just because you or I don't agree with it, how can it be anything more or less than an opinion? And... why don't you have beef with most actors?You have a sister or a mother perhaps. Baron Max thinks they are simply things to be fucked. And he says it.Boo hoo. People can say/write whatever they want. Shut the fuck up.By the way, you could have pointed out that he was spouting crap and tried to make me feel silly for daring him to stand by his words.Silly? Asking anyone for their name and address online is just lame...what could it posssibly accomplish?