Geetings all Taoists of sciforums... :D

I'll be posting some things about Taoism here. If anyone has a koan, give it to me... I Love trying to decode those things... :D:D:D

Love,
Nelson

Tao Teh Ching

Chapter 1

Chapter 1:1-2

"1. The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Tao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name.
2. (Conceived of as) having no name, it is the Originator of heaven and earth; (conceived of as) having a name, it is the Mother of all things."

This means that the Truth, the Tao, is beyond what we call material world. As it has no name, it has also no clear definition. It's manifestations are created by the Tao's peculiarities, when you focus your attention on one part of the Tao. This originates a name. Names creates definitions. They are full of definitions. If you give a name to something, it lose it's original Nature.

Summarizing... you can't call Tao Tao, because when you call Tao Tao, you are already creating an illusion. The Tao is nameless, and you have to discover it by yourself. Because once you name it, it loses its original Nature. Once you perceive it rationally, that is, with your mind, you lose its conception.


So how can you perceive it?

"3. Always without desire we must be found,
If its deep mystery we would sound;
But if desire always within us be,
Its outer fringe is all that we shall see."

This means: forget about it. Forget that the Tao exists. Then, you will truly live in the Tao and understand it.


Story1: Forgetting the Tao

Zi Gong asked Confucius:
"Master, why do we have to live in the world and be bound by the rules of society?"

Confucius: If you want to live outside the world, that's fine too.

Zi Gong: How?

Confucius: Fish are only comfortable living in water. People are only comfortable living in the Tao. Free and unfettered in lakes and streams, fish forget that they live in water. Satisfied and happy in Nature, people forget about the existence of the Tao.
We live in the Tao!

Zi Gong: Tao? What Tao?

" We lose our carefree nature by separating our minds into cubicles and stuffing them full of knowledge. We should strive to break these boundaries and trasncend knowledge."


If we try to understand Tao with our head, we won't. Tao is umcomprehensible in words. You have to experience it. And it's through desirelesness and meditation that you attain it.


How the Universe is created by the Tao?

"4. Under these two aspects, it is really the same; but as development takes place, it receives the different names. Together we call them the Mystery. Where the Mystery is the deepest is the gate of all that is subtle and wonderful."

The two aspects that the text talks about are the two opposites. They are one in the Tao. Each one complementing each other. And as everything in the Universe has its opposite, the "two" here is in reality everything. All the Universe is reduced into two things, two Essencial Opposites.

Questions?
I guess I will just listen to your questions instead of posting all lessons (after all, people usually questions me...:bugeye: )

Love,
Nelson

I will enjoy reading your posts. I am a student of Tai Chi. Take care and happy posting!

Meghan,

If you have any question about Taoism, Tai Chi, Chi Gong or I Ching (or about them mixed...) you can ask... I have no idea what people have difficult with... ;)

Love,
Nelson

As I just started taking actual classes, I am pretty new to the actual art, although I have been reading the text for a while. I think this is a great thread. I will be checking back.

Too many things to say...
I would like to listen to questions...

Anyways... Here's a second story:

Story2: Knowledge and the Tao

One day, a man named knowledge was on his way to the north when he ran into a fellow named Can't Say.

Knowledge: Excuse me, could you tell me how to think in order to understand the Tao, how to act in order to live at peace in the Tao, and how to attain the Tao?

Can't Say: I can't say, I can't say, I can't say...

Not getting an answer, knowledge continued on to the south side of the white river, where he ran into Absurd.

Knowledge: Pardon me, I would like to ask a few questions. Namely, how to understand the Tao, how to live at peace in the Tao,and how to attain the Tao?

Absurd: I know... and I'd like to tell you... but, darn it, I forgot what I was going to say...

Still unable to get an answer, Knowledge went to see the yellow emperor.

Emperor: Don't conscioulsly think, and you'll understand the Tao. Don't conscioulsly act, and you'll live at peace in the Tao, don't consciously try, and you'll attain the Tao.

Knowledge: Okay, now you and I know this, but why is it that Can't Say and Absurd don't know?

Emperor: Oh, there you are mistaken. They DO know! Can't Say is one with the Tao, and Absurd isn't far away. It is you and I who still have a long way to go.

Conclusion:
"The man named Knowledge was of the realm of words, while Absurd was of the realm of language without words, and can't say was of the real of no mind, no words. The Tao cannot be understood through words alone."

I'm like Absurd. That's why I still can use words to tell you... :)
It's hard to pass this information in words because I don't use words to understand them.... I have to adapt my language to this understanding in order to pass the message along...

That's one of my favorite stories. It tells everything about the Tao in a simple way. That's Wisdom. Knowledge can't explain you exactly how the Tao is. But Wisdom can. And Wisdom come from experience.

Any questions? :)

Love,
Nelson

TruthSeeker:

Greetings.

Absurd: I know... and I'd like to tell you... but, darn it, I forgot what I was going to say...
Absurd was of the realm of language without words I'm like Absurd. That's why I still can use words to tell you...

So how exactly are you like Absurd? In the tale, Absurd doesn't talk about the Tao because he forgot what he was going to say. Then you further describe him as 'language without words .
Then you explain that you are like Absurd, and this is why you are trying to use words to explain the Tao.

Hmmm, sounds absurd to me.

:)

noktvs,

You understood... :)

PS: If you look to my posts, you can see that I mostly use metaphors, parables and allegories to pass my message. My rational mind is slowly fading out... ;)

Love,
Nelson

I have a question:

How many mindless, irrational, new-age fluffs does it take to change a light bulb?

The answer?

none, because they think they have done it already, but when the light goes out, they won't be able to see anymore.

<evil-grin>

I to am studying Tai chi and have been for many years, also the teachings of lao-tzu
The Disease Of Knowledge
To know the unknowable that is elevating. Not to know the knowable,that is sickness. Only by becomming sick of sickness, can we be without sickness.The saga is not sick because he is sick of sickness, therefore he is not sick.
Forgetting Knowledge
They who seek learnedness will daily increase. They who seek reason will daily diminish. They will diminish and continue to diminish until they arrive at non-assertion.
With non-assertion there is nothing that they cannot achive.When they take the empire,it is always because they use no diplomacy.They who use diplomacy are not fit to take the empire.

Tao can be incorporated in the real world of business, life, love and living...

For a western mind...Tao should be considered in the modern framework of:

Data ->Information ->Knowledge ->Wisdom

At the level of Wisdom, Tao provides the eternal principle of the universe that transcends reality and is the source of being, non-being, and change.

In Confucianism, the right manner of human activity and virtuous conduct seen as stemming from universal criteria and ideals governing right, wrong, and other categories of existence. This complements Sanatana Dharma which can also be equivalent to Kabbalah of Jewish thought.

BLASTOFF,

The Disease Of Knowledge

Yeah... :D:D:D

Forgetting Knowledge
They who seek learnedness will daily increase. They who seek reason will daily diminish. They will diminish and continue to diminish until they arrive at non-assertion.

That's awesome... :)


Kmguru,

This complements Sanatana Dharma which can also be equivalent to Kabbalah of Jewish thought.

;)


For both,

Your comments are hightly appreciated. :)
Be free to post "lessons" too! ;)

Love,
Nelson

They who seek learnedness will daily increase. They who seek reason will daily diminish. They will diminish and continue to diminish until they arrive at non-assertion. With non-assertion there is nothing that they cannot achive.When they take the empire,it is always because they use no diplomacy.They who use diplomacy are not fit to take the empire.

Wait a minute, isn't this saying exactly the opposite of what Nelson has been trying to argue? If I understand this passage correctly it is saying that those who use reason (i.e. the rational mind) eventually are able to do anything. "there is nothing that they cannot acheive". :confused:

To me this passage is saying that "seeking learnedness" (i.e. mere book-knowledge) just fills you up and isn't edifying, but "seeking reason" (i.e. using your rational mind) is edifying and the path you should take when following the Tao, similar I think to what kmguru is saying:

Data ->Information ->Knowledge ->Wisdom

Hi noktvs:

I did check out the URL in your profile. I like the postings including Commentary on Islam. I have not read all the postings, but I like what I read. Good work.

noktvs,

It's the opposite you said... :D

They who seek learnedness will daily increase. They who seek reason will daily diminish. They will diminish and continue to diminish until they arrive at non-assertion.

Those who use reason and rational thoughts to explain the Universe will eventualy be lost in an ocean of data... they will be so confused that they will arrive at non-assertion... :D

Love,
Nelson

kmguru,
Thanks for the compliment on the web-site. :D
I admit I have neglected it for about a year, but have just recently been working on more material to post there. If you have anything you want me to put up (pictures, essays, rants, etc) let me know and I'll be glad to do so. Or if you have a site, I will link to it.

Nelson,

No, no, no, you have it all wrong! The point of the Tao IS to diminish, like the water that seeks the lowest level, or the vessel whose emptiness is its usefullness. If it was the other way around why would the next verse be saying:

"They will diminish and continue to diminish until they arrive at non-assertion. With non-assertion there is nothing that they cannot acheive"?

noktvs,

"They will diminish and continue to diminish until they arrive at non-assertion. With non-assertion there is nothing that they cannot acheive"?

This "cannot" means that anything the "they" want they can achieve... read carefully...

It is "With non-assertion there is nothing that they cannot achieve" not "With non-assertion there is nothing that they can achieve"...

Love,
Nelson

Nelson,

I AM reading carefully, it appears you are the one who's confused. Look again at what I said:

"Wait a minute, isn't this saying exactly the opposite of what Nelson has been trying to argue? If I understand this passage correctly it is saying that those who use reason (i.e. the rational mind) eventually are able to do anything ."

your response was:
It's the opposite you said...
then you contradict yourself and say:
This "cannot" means that anything the "they" want they can achieve... read carefully...
So first you say it's the opposite of what I'm saying, then you misinterpret what I said to mean something completely different. So, going off of your last comment, and now that I have clarified the meaning of my original statement, are you saying you agree with me, and with this passage, that those who use their rational mind will eventually be able to acheive whatever they want?

Tao Te Ching
Chapter 5:

"Heaven and earth do not act from any wish to be benevolent;
they deal with all things as the dogs of grass are dealt with.
The sages do not act from (any wish to be) benevolent;
they deal with the people as the dogs of grass are dealt with."

My take on this is that the "sage" (i.e. the wise one who follows the Tao), when dealing with "the people" (i.e. the general population), should not base his or her actions on any desire or emotion or even the motives of trying to help or love them. Rather, they should just be like the Tao (which is described in the first verse as "Heaven and Earth") and "deal with all things as the dogs of grass are dealt with", meaning not to take them into consideration. In other words, the sages should align themselves with nature (the Tao), which just is what it is.

noktvs,


"Wait a minute, isn't this saying exactly the opposite of what Nelson has been trying to argue? If I understand this passage correctly it is saying that those who use reason (i.e. the rational mind) eventually are able to do anything ."

It's the opposite you said...

I meant that those who use reason are not eventually "able to do anything"...

As it's said...

"They will diminish and continue to diminish until they arrive at non-assertion. With non-assertion there is nothing that they cannot acheive"?

They will diminish with reason until they can achieve nothing...

Chapter 8:

"The highest excellence is like (that of) water. The excellence
of water appears in its benefiting all things, and in its occupying,
without striving (to the contrary), the low place which all men
dislike. Hence (its way) is near to (that of) the Tao.

Love is like water... ;)
Water is one of the images of Love. Other is fire, because it warms us up. Wind is other, because it's gentle. Willow is other, because it's flexible and harmonic. You can see all those images in Taoism. ;)

Love,
Nelson

Chapter 81:

"The sage does not accumulate (for himself). The more that he
expends for others, the more does he possess of his own; the more that he gives to others, the more does he have himself."

Well... it's self-explanatory...
To give is to receive... ;)

"Giving is the secret of abundance."

Sivananda

Love,
Nelson

Chapter 78:

"Words that are strictly true seem to be paradoxical."

Love,
Nelson

Chapter 79:

"In the Way of Heaven, there is no partiality of love; it is always on the side of the good man."

Love,
Nelson

Chapter 43:

"There are few in the world who attain to the teaching without words, and the advantage arising from non-action."

Love,
Nelson

Chapter 37:

"The Tao in its regular course does nothing (for the sake of
doing it), and so there is nothing which it does not do.

If princes and kings were able to maintain it, all things would of
themselves be transformed by them.

If this transformation became to me an object of desire, I would
express the desire by the nameless simplicity.

Simplicity without a name
Is free from all external aim.
With no desire, at rest and still,
All things go right as of their will."

This chapter clearly talks about the principle of non-action. From non-action everything is made, everything flows, everything changes. We don't need to make the changes, the changes are natural in the Universe and they happen harmonically, by action and reaction. Without an action, the reaction is natural. ;)

With no desires, changes happen and it doesn't make difference at all to you. As you can't control external circumstances, peace in mind and Heart has those who are desireless. :)

Love,
Nelson

Nelson,

This is getting redundant, but ohh well.
I meant that those who use reason are not eventually "able to do anything"... They will diminish with reason until they can achieve nothing...
If this were true, than the verse would have said:

They will diminish and continue to diminish until they arrive at non-assertion. With non-assertion there is nothing that they *can* acheive

or to put it in other words, it would have said with non-assertion they achieve nothing

But it doesn't say this, it says:

"They will diminish and continue to diminish until they arrive at non-assertion. With non-assertion there is nothing that they *cannot* acheive.

Meaning there is nothing they are unable to do, meaning they can do all, meaning....ahh you get my point. The version of the Tao Te Ching I have translates this word "non-assertion" as "non-action" and that is the whole point of the Tao, to attain a state of non-action. If the verse we have been debating (using tactics of reason I might add), means what you are saying it means, then you have completely turned the Taoist philosophy on it's head, implying that when a sage attains the state of non-action, that this is bad and they are lost. My understanding of the Taoist concept of "non-action" does not mean "doing nothing" in the sense that we normally take this to mean. This is a misunderstanding of the state of "non-action" due to the fact that it is difficult to translate what this means into words, like you brought up and like it says at the opening of the Tao Te Ching.

"The Tao that can be expressed is not the eternal Tao"

But, we should not let this difficulty hinder us from understanding the message, or why would we even be talking about it in the first place?

By the way, what's with the GIGANTIC font Nelson? are we getting a little miffed?

"Non-action" I agree...
Reason...
...I don't know...

I like the gigantic words... :D

Love,
Nelson

HEAVENS REASON
Is not heaven's reason truly like a streaching bow? the high it brings down, the lowly it lifts up. those who have abundence it depletes; those who are deficient it augments.
Such is heaven's reason, it depletes those who have abundence but compels the deficient. Man's reason is not so, he depletes the deficient, in order to serve those who have abundence.
Where is he who would have abundence for serving the world?
Indeed, it is the sage who acts but claims not, he aquires merit, but he does not dwell on it, and shows no anxiety to display his excellence.

I think it's funny that you guys are arguing about what Taoism is. As soon as you guys began arguing, you both lost it. You've both missed the point. You can talk around the Tao, like Truthseeker was alluding to, but you can never really talk about it without sounding like an ass.

I'd like to recommend a good Taoist book - The Tao of Pooh. It illustrates Taoist "principles" using the Pooh book and is written in the same sort of style.

-Xenu

You can't talk about Tao, you can only talk about Its manifestations...

Sure you can talk about Tao. The person who says you can not talk about it does not know what he/she is talking about. That is the beauty or is that the lack of....I forget....TAO??.... :D

My master quoted once, to seek a higher being than ones self in this life ,is to seek a being that does not exsist.

Your master is wise....

But then again..."does not exist" seems too absolute...but with a qualifier like "in this life"...I have to agree....

have you read ahlgren's book discipline? the way it connects taoism to particle physics and time travel are stunning to say the least.

Yes I have...sorry to say...it is like a sand box.

http://www.u-s-silica.com/sandbox-2.jpg

I haven't heard that reaction yet. Just curious, why do you say that?

A child builds a sand castle...and imagines white knights, kings....damsel in distress....

OR a pyramid....and imagines...King Tut...Cleopatra....

OR...

Get it now?....

we must be talking about two different books. unless you just didn't get it? :-)

i'm not suggesting that discipline is a textbook on quantum mechanics, nor is it a treatise on eastern philosophy or economics or anything else. i went into the book thinking "oh great this guy is writing his autobiography. yawn." i came out of it fairly startled. the way that the different ideas come together made me rethink a lot of what i've believed for some time. i don't think its seemless, but by his own admission, he's not finished.

i'd be interested in hearing what turned you off about it. from what i gather you believe that ahlgren bit off more than he can chew? or maybe he is aspiring to heights for which he isn't qualified?

Originally posted by listening
i'd be interested in hearing what turned you off about it. from what i gather you believe that ahlgren bit off more than he can chew? or maybe he is aspiring to heights for which he isn't qualified?

Exactly. He did send me the book. Nice guy. So I hate to criticize too much. I was not totally turned off, there is more work needs to be done in separating fantasy and philosophy and science. It is like some one took a rainbow of colors and painted an expression saying this is our future (Cant you see the city, the people, the factory, the flowers, the trees?...where...where...I ask?)

i came out of it fairly startled. the way that the different ideas come together made me rethink a lot of what i've believed for some time.

Your interpretation of the book - the cliffnotes version please....explain...

heh heh. the proverbial utopia...

i am fairly new to ahlgren's work, as well as to this board, so i may be coming at this from a different perspective than you. also, i have become somewhat personally acquainted with the author and have offered to help him in a limited capacity (creating a daily quote, etc) because i really do like the work and i find value in it. the reason i came here is because i was told that some people here are familiar with the work and could comment on the scientific parts.

i was told that the book is a work in progress, whatever that means. i do know that there have been a lot of rewrites in the last year and that ahlgren himself says the book isn't ready yet. i have to agree, but i wonder how long it has been since you read it? i haven't seen earlier copies, but i've heard they are more difficult to get through, maybe something like a sandbox? :-)

the cliffnotes version.

to me the story isn't as important as the different theories. the book takes taoism, subatomic physics, economics and finance and pulls them together. i had some problems with the economics part (i found out about the book on an economics board) and i am not qualified to speak on the physics part. paco has said he doesn't necessarily subscribe to the multiverse theory. i have david deutsch on my reading list so i'll see where i stand on that later.

as i understand it the book was written for the lowest common denominator. maybe it is utopian and that's part of the reason i'm here, but i definately got something from it, at least enough that i wanted to find out more.

this isn't the only place i'm asking these questions and so far the response i'm getting is interesting. for the most part the people who read it last summer and fall are more critical than the people who have read it recently. my opinion is that if he cleans it up it can be a great book. the ideas are right on. like i said it made me rethink my ideas on a lot of things.

"as i understand it the book was written for the lowest common denominator. maybe it is utopian and that's part of the reason i'm here, but i definately got something from it, at least enough that i wanted to find out more. "

You got into the wrong forum if you are searching for the lowest common denominator. While we have a lot of teenagers that are studying science, there are plenty super high IQed people here.

BTW: I read the book with rape and sex and violence scences (too many four letter words) that I could not stomach. As far as Multiverse theory....I do subscribe to a 5 dimensional universe where the 5th dimension is the size of one mm or less but attaches to other 4D universes like pages in the book. It is far out but people are working on it and we will soon know in about 15 years the mathematics behind it. So that is not far out.

I am still waiting for the cliff notes - the juicy parts....

i don't really agree with you regarding the four letter words. i don't remember a lot of sex and rape. imho the purpose of the book is to emulate reality using graphic language and scenes. i think it would be closer to fantasy if it wasn't so strong. my interpretation was that we have to suffer in order to build callouses. maybe i missed something. it seemed like the protaganist only succeeded when he stopped trying so hard and i liked that a lot. i also thought the explanations of time travel through multiverses was elegant, although as i said i'm unqualified to say too much about that.

as i said, i came at the book from an economic perspective and i found it a little problematic although i think it could be cleaned up easily. i am also a fan of popper and i thought the links between that philsophy and taoism were strong. i definately want to find out more about taoism and buddhism now, as well as quantum physics.

the strongest point to me was the way all of these elements were brought together in a strong story. like i said before, it isn't a text book. i couldn't have lasted through something like that.

the weakest point was the middle of the book where the story started to be not so strong. :-) but again i think that it could be cleaned up and i also think that that section is important to the story. i said something to paco and he agrees.

as an aside, i'm not suggesting that this board is full of stupid people, only that the book seems to be written for the common man as well as pundits. if you were easily offended by the language i can see why you wouldn't like it but i don't think that is a strike against the story. i think it was written that way on purpose. and just because some of us are well versed in the ideas behind the book doesn't mean that it isn't a great way to present and join the theories. one of the things i liked best about it was that it will appeal to an audience that otherwise probably wouldn't be exposed to this stuff. i think it would make a really good movie.

"i don't really agree with you regarding the four letter words. i don't remember a lot of sex and rape. imho the purpose of the book is to emulate reality using graphic language and scenes. i think it would be closer to fantasy if it wasn't so strong. my interpretation was that we have to suffer in order to build callouses. maybe i missed something. "

No, you did not miss it. That is not my world even the world has violence and sadness. I dont have to spend a month in prison to understand the criminal philosophy or be raped to understand the violence. It is an assult to my senses. I try to stay clear of it. I rarely use four letter words at home or in business - even though I have managed hundreds of millions of dollar projects. Some do. Obscene language and violence is the antithesis of a civilized society. That is not reality - at least not where I live. People here still say "Sir" and "Ma'am" in public.

That is not the Tao I look for in one's life. I follow the words of "Desiderata".

Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexations to the spirit.

The book is then, not my philosophy, But, now I understand your POV.

understanding...

you will understand less than you believe if you shut out the world around you -- even the bad parts. experience defines our perspective and i submit that you will not understand the world around you as well as you think without experience. while i agree that you shouldn't go to prison, you will never truly understand it if you don't. this is one of the tenets that hit me hardest in ahlgren's book.

taoism is yin and yang. it is balance. you have rejected that balance in favor of a selective perspective. consider whether or not this message offends you. if it does, what might that mean?

loud and aggressive persons might be loudly and aggressively offering you an opportunity! :-)

now i think i finally understand why the book was so offensive to you and i feel closer to the truth. thank you for that.

As I said, I understand your POV. And, I dont have to be evil to understand the true nature of evil. Power is neither good nor evil - it is how one uses it. Do you know that today we can simulate large nuclear explosions in a super computer to understand its effect? This does not mean that we can not understand the true devastation because we actually did not explode one.

The capacity to understand lies in the knowledge and the neural configuration of ones brain. The ability to experience certain events and possibilities can be greatly enhanced through meditation and following the methodology of the ancient rishis without actually being there. Consider the dream state. You can still dream being violated without actually being violated - yet your heart will race and pulse get higher and you may wake up with profuse sweat - and call it a nightmare. Do you know why it is so? Do you know how it feels to fly an unicorn? Visit a world that you have not seen depicted in any movies or books? Be in the past and smell and touch people a thousand years ago - a physical experience that no books and movie can provide?

True Taoism is the capacity to expand ones self beyond the limitation of present boundaries of time and space, to simulate a world as if it is real, and yes to feel the power that transcends good and evil.

Been there....done that....

you should read it again.

www.the-entirety.com

Will do... my brain door is always open to new ideas....

"What if you could melt into the entirety of space and time, experiencing multiple universes at will? For thousands of years, spiritualists have claimed that the possibility is real, but only now are modern science and philosophy finally bridging the gap, providing crucial evidence to support those ideas..."

my personal experience for the last 15 years points to that direction and getting stronger everyday....even though my first OBE was in 1962. I am hoping the experience can be exponential in nature....

I read the sample of the book.

Is it already in the bookstore, or do you have to order it via mail?

It sounds interesting, cause Tao ideas are very appealing, but how can you apply them in real life without becoming a monk in a monastary?

How?

1. Understand the nature of your thought process and the nature of the world around you.

2. Practice meditation and cleansing of mind, body and spirit.

3. Goto One

You can still function in a society but with a higher performance.

**You can still function in a society but with a higher performance**

Now that is a very very nice statement!

Thank you for that post.

Edit: so how about some more information about the statement and points 1 and 2? :)

Edit 2: and does OBE means out of body experience? If so, could you tell a bit about it? If not, excuse me. :)

A4Ever:
Edit 1: what you would like to know?

Edit2: OBE ...here it goes. I am sure I posted about it in this forum. First a disclaimer. I experienced something the cause of which I did not know. It matches with what people describe as OBE and hence my use of the term.

It was summer of '62. Just finished my highschool and getting ready to go to college. One night, I was outside (backyard) watching stars on an air mattress. During that time, I was learning transdental meditation even though the name was not invented yet. So, I decided to meditate a little while thinking about earth, our place in the universe. I was highly relaxed. Suddenly, I felt I am about 30 feet up and see myself on the ground on the air mattress. I felt calm. Then I just kept going up and up at very first rate and saw earth below as a very large ball with light glow all around. Cities with points of light everywhere like what you see from a plane but with a background light like it is full moonlight. I kept going somewhere - every thing was dark except a lot of points of light. Then the sky again got lit up and I saw the most beautiful cloud (looked like many clouds) with multicolor hues and strings of lights, swirling patterns and so on... then I moved back towards perhaps earth and in a short order I reversed my path and back on the mattress.

I did not have a stroke or was on any medication or was not dying. Just a normal day. Many years later I saw a picture the hubble telescope took that was identical to what I saw. Since it only happened once and I never had any opportunity to experience it again, I consider it as a fluke. Nevertheless, it was an OBE experience. So, there you have it. At a subconscious level, we have the ability to connect to the underlying cosmic intelligence - I think. One of thesedays I need to do some serious scientific experiments to prove my point one way or the other....

I do have a lot of lucid dreams, most of them with solutions to complex problems I encounter in my job. Others are either past history or a view of futue. I use the stuff I can to earn money. It is good for something....(the performance part)...

Thanks for the story. I am interested in doing that myself, but I just know I would freak out. So first I need to center more, which brings me to what I'd like to know. :)

How exactly can you blend the east and the west, or tao and capitalism, or zen and society or... You see, I try not to be narrow minded :)

There seem to be too much contradictions. As I understand it, the taoist must let go of knowledge in order to know. Right? But I really need to study. You did too. Isn't that a huge contradiction?

The Taoist seems involved yet strangely detached. I just know a buddhist monk would fold the letter in half and continue whatever he was doing before, if he got a letter stating that his whole family was murdered and cut in tiny little pieces. (making it gruesome to make sure the point is made :) )

Universal love, ok. I try that. Two problems with that. I will always love my girlfriend more. No way I'll love her friends just as much. :) Second problem: I study law, I want everybody to have a fair trial, even that murderer from the buddhist story. I call that respect for human beings, even for the murderer (as a human being only of course). He is worthy to be heard, to receive fair punishment. But I could never love him.

The wise man seems naive, is unmoved by what's on the outside and stays centered. But you can not function that way in society. People expect you to argue, just to show you care about it. I don't think that is so wrong either. They expect you to show some emotions at time. I had a friend who constantly reminded everybody that we weren't more than dust in an enourmous universe, just to put everything in perspective. But sometimes that is not good enough.

I could go on. You see what I mean. You seem to have found a good blending. I read that in another thread. 40% private life - east. 60% other life - west.

So what's the trick? :)

I did read your post, but point one and two were very general remarks. How do you suggest we understand the nature of our thoughts and of things around us? What do you do with that first and second point?

Higher performance, now that was the very interesting thing. I thought performance would sink below zero for buddhists. :) How is it possible?

I hope that was clear. Thanks in advance.

A4Ever:

Let us start by understanding the tools that are needed to get there. I build expert systems that others call AI. One of the basic foundation in building such a system is "data" - and lots of it. Then I set up rules and associations that provides the information. Then the neural net does recursive algorithms to calculate the new threshold values - that becomes knowledge. I did not reach the wisdom stage on a software because the system is too limited at this time.

Applying the same principle with humans...you need to start aquiring data from your friends, this forum, books, documentaries, text books etc. That is the first step. Then you have to continue doing it for the rest of your life. As you soak in the data, always remember some may be incorrect and others are correct within a boundary condition. Luckily your brain is designed to shift through and create associations while you sleep or meditate.

This will go on for a few years. During this time - always keep an open mind and make sure the data is validated against the boundary conditions and expanded as needed to new conditions. (We call that open mind) You need to acquire data in every field that you interact in your life - medicine, law, politics, psychology, etc...simply because your own life will pass through events that require you to have a basic understanding of this information to make decisions. If you read most of my posts in different topics, you will get a feel for what I am talking about.

This is the best method to manage oneself in a society yet stay detached to a certain extent to keep one centered. Any other method lack survival components. Unfortunately it is not something you can acquire over night. Training can help - but I have not started a school yet (One Canadian wanted me to do that for Canadian business people but flaked out at the last minute).

The procedure is painless but may require one to two hours of talking or several sessions of text communication...I recommend for you to stay on the learning mode for now and gradually incorporate the associations. I will do the best I can to show you the right direction (that reduces the time only). Eventually you will make your own direction....

The reason I did not answer to specific alleged contradictions is in order to resolve it, you need the underlying data and result set which could be massive if you pick piece meal. If you understand this statement...you are in good shape.

I couldn't understand the last statement due to language barriers: "if you pick piece meal" does not make sense to me.

But I think that what you mean with that last statement is that to solve the examples I gave, you would need too much data. It would be impossible to turn that into useful information. For example the buddhist monk. Who is he? Which relatives does he have, how old is he, how close to enlightment is he,... There is no straight answer to my examples.

I hope that's what you mean.

The rest of the post is pretty clear I think. You apply data-to-information systems to everyday life. You use a metaphore to say something that I already knew (I think). But I am always tempted to look for easy answers. I must realise once and for all that there's no such thing. :)

The lack of survival components in other systems is that they do not use full data, so they can not reach full information, nor good decisions, right?

Luckily your brain is designed to shift through and create associations while you sleep or meditate

Is that the process of forming information from the data? Why do you say you need to sleep or meditate for this? Isn't this done by simply thinking?

Thanks.

Is that the process of forming information from the data? Why do you say you need to sleep or meditate for this? Isn't this done by simply thinking?

NO. The thinking part only works when you already converted data to information. Then you can draw some conclusions based on that information. However that information has to be limited. The conscious brain can not process too many new variables. That is why the saying "Let me sleep on that". It can only collect the rules that has already been formed in the background.

An analogy is a computer program. When you interact with it, you only see a limited facet of that activity. A lot happens behind the scene. A large company has to collect the data that happens during the day and processed in the middle of the night to digest the data in proper format so that in the morning, the management can get the reports of yesterdays activity. It is the background processing vs the limited processing of the "now" information.

"if you pick piece meal" - means items without reference or context. It is like standing in the middle of the desert and not knowing where you are headed....The analysis and inference is difficult....lot of dancing around the subject matter....you got it...

While you may admire a Buddhist monk for certain aspects of their life style, there is a minor problem in the context of the universe. Assuming it is a great life style, can you analyze what happens to mankind if everybody becomes a Buddhist monk? Ten years from now, thousand years from now? Ten thousand years from now?

While you may admire a Buddhist monk for certain aspects of their life style, there is a minor problem in the context of the universe.

YES!! That's one thing I've always had difficulty with. I admire their tranquility, their control. But they have nothing to do with society. I read books about those monks. They need to beg for food. But what if all the people they begged to converted? They would starve. They probably wouldn't mind though :)

They would make for a very artificial and none surviving society. They would be eaten by wild animals, cause they can't kill them.

The thinking part only works when you already converted data to information

It is the background processing vs the limited processing of the "now" information.

But you put a very important thing in subconscious... That makes me feel out of control. What if wrong information is formed?

I bet you're gonna say that you have to make sure to collect good and enough data to increase the quality of the information, and that the decision proces stil has the final word, so that errors in information can be filtered out :) Please tell me if I'm wrong.

Which is the nature of the processes that are used to form information in the subconscious?

Is there more to say about the thought proces, and what would you give as a short insight to the nature of the world around us? Is that where the Tao kicks in?

Thanks.

I recommend a book you can pick up at any library. It can provide some insight as to how our brain works (real life analysis). You should also read some background information on the good doctor.

Everything in slow doses.....:D

The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat
by: Oliver W. Sacks



http://a1204.g.akamai.net/7/1204/1401/00082712011/images.barnesandnoble.com/images/1360000/1365307.gif

Hmmm....yes.... I was asking a lot of things there, wasn't I? :)

I will read the book, but only in July, cause I have exams now. Also I don't think you can pick it up in any library here in Belgium, but I will try to find it.

Thanks!

If your university library has a electronic catlog, you can search it fast. The book (and other books by the author) is a required reading by students who take medical courses.

Then come back and we shall discuss it. In the meantime you can post other stuff as needed....

Good luck on your exam....

I will without a doubt find the book, no worries :)

Good luck on your exam....

Thank you!

Generally I would like to ask you to use HanYu PinYin for transcriptions of Chinese words.

Instead of Taoism, that means Daoism.

Dao De Jing instead of Tao Te Ch'ing,

You might be surprised to find that "Zi Gong" is already in HanYu PinYin: Tzu Kung would be the way of rendering the name in the romanisation you mostly use.

Lao Zi and Lao Tzu are often used interchangably, and some people use just one or just the other.

A short list:

Dao = Tao
Daoism = Taoism
Dao De Jing = Tao Te Ching
Yi Jing = I Ching
Lao Zi = Lao Tzu
Zhuang Zi = Chuang Tzu
Sun Zi = Sun Tzu
Lie Zi = Lieh Tzu
Qi Gong = Ch'i Kung (aka Hungga, Hunggar-- these are the Cantonese terms)
Tai Ji Quan = T'ai Chi Ch'uan

however there are tones as well, but as these terms are well known I wouldn't really expect anybody to use tones unless it was a large segment of written chinese text. For example if you pasted "wei, aiqing fuchu, wei, huozhe er manglu, wei, shiyao er xinku wo zixi jilu... yong wo de shuang yan, zai, mengxian li zhao lu, gai, wenlu de shihou, wo buhui zhuang ku..." that wouldn't make much sense to a speaker of Chinese out of context, you'd have to type "wei4 ai4qing2 fu4chu1, wei4, huo2zhe5 er2 mang2lu4, wei4, shi2yao1 er2 xin1ku3 wo3 zi3xi4 ji4lu4... yong4 wo3 de5 shuang1yan3, zai4, meng4xian3 li3 zhao3 lu4, gai1, wen4lu4 de5 shi2hou4 wo3 bu3hui4 zhuang1 ku4..." which makes much more sense.

Pinyin is now recoginised as an international standard, Wade-Giles is only in use a little bit in Taiwan (T'aiwan in W-G) and still hangs around in the US and other former GB colonies to some extent, although you will see Pinyin more (historical figures such as Mao Zedong you might see as Mao Zedong or as Mao Tse-tung, Chiang Kai-shek [a Cantonese name] or his Mandarin name which I don't recall, but Deng Xiaoping you won't see as Teng Hsiaop'ing)