I am curious to know just how much financial support Israel receives from the US and if they receive income and or military support from other countries and how much. ?

They receive a little over $3 billion from the U.S. in economic and military aid. The exact amounts can be found in the Foreign Operations Appropriations bill. You can find it all at http://thomas.loc.gov

It's a bit less then 3 billion. 1.8 for military aid that is invested in full back in the purchase of americen hardware, and 1 Billion is civilian aid.

Israel can do well without this help, other areas of support from the US are much more strategic.

ethan,

It's a bit less then 3 billion. 1.8 for military aid that is invested in full back in the purchase of americen hardware, and 1 Billion is civilian aid.

Israel can do well without this help, other areas of support from the US are much more strategic.

Ha, ha!!! Israel' economy is on the verge of collapse. It's now asking the US for an additional $4 billion and $10 billion in loan guaranties. If the US stops financially supporting Israel today, Israel would be gone within a few years.

Tom

and I bet the USA gives no more than some burnt toast to Palestine ?

pcd2k,

That's a wise bet. :)

Tom

Ha, ha!!! Israel' economy is on the verge of collapse. It's now asking the US for an additional $4 billion and $10 billion in loan guaranties. If the US stops financially supporting Israel today, Israel would be gone within a few years.

Which would make Pro real happy. The thought of an actual secular democray in the region really upsets him. What upsets him even more is that America is preventing the Arab people from exterminating the Jews in much the same fashion as the europeans of 50 years ago.

Ha, ha!!! Israel' economy is on the verge of collapse. It's now asking the US for an additional $4 billion and $10 billion in loan guaranties. If the US stops financially supporting Israel today, Israel would be gone within a few years.

verg of collapse? because it asks aid from the USA? what does that prove?

- The two years attrition war and the world economy downturn had affected Israeli economy
- Israel GDP per capita and inflation rate are on European standards
- Standards of living is Israel is still higher many times more in Israel than any country in the middle east
- Israels army budget is around $10 Billion .Israel poulation 6 Million. British Army budget $35 billion and is about the same size as the Israeli army. British poulation 60 Million get it?
- the US is paying the about same amount of aid to Jordan and Egypt and whta do they get in return? in both countries the US is much hated. How many sept. 11 attackrs came from Egypt? The US is getting much more in return from Israel. See the arrow missle system , almost pure Israeli technolgy and much much more that you know nothing about . As for the Palestiniens , why should they get anything? so Arafat can put it in his Swisse acounts or so he go and buy more weapons of terror from Iran, like the on captured in Karin A?

Brad,

Which would make Pro real happy. The thought of an actual secular democray in the region really upsets him.

A secular democracy!!! Ha, ha!!!

First, Israel is not a secular state, it's a Jewish state. It gives precedence to Jews in all legal aspects from citizenship, to land ownership, to voting.

Second, as for being "democratic", tell that to the Palestinians who are told by the Israeli government that they live in Israel, but they aren't allowed to vote in Israeli elections. Out of all the so-called "democratic" countries in the world, Israel has the highest rate of disenfranchisement.

Tom

ethan,

verg of collapse? because it asks aid from the USA? what does that prove?

Don't kill the messenger. I'm just stating what I heard on CNN a few days ago.

As for the Palestiniens , why should they get anything? so Arafat can put it in his Swisse acounts or so he go and buy more weapons of terror from Iran, like the on captured in Karin A?

If the Palestinians had weapons, they wouldn't have to attack innocent civilians anymore. They could then fight the Israeli army directly. Wouldn't that be better for everyone??? :)

Tom

First, Israel is not a secular state, it's a Jewish state. It gives precedence to Jews in all legal aspects from citizenship, to land ownership, to voting.

Second, as for being "democratic", tell that to the Palestinians who are told by the Israeli government that they live in Israel, but they aren't allowed to vote in Israeli elections. Out of all the so-called "democratic" countries in the world, Israel has the highest rate of disenfranchisement.

Whoopie. The founding nation of Democracy, Greece, only allowed greek citizens to vote. It was the same way in Rome. It was the same way in the Ottoman empire. It IS the same way in America, where you must be an American to vote. Saying the Palestineans have the right to vote in Israel is like saying that the millions of illigal immigrants from Mexico should have the right to vote in the US.

If the Palestinians had weapons, they wouldn't have to attack innocent civilians anymore. They could then fight the Israeli army directly. Wouldn't that be better for everyone???

The PLO had such weapons once, and they did try to take on the IDF in Lebanon... or don't you remember the 80's? The IDF handed the PLO their heads and disarmed their army. So let me get it straight... the PLO looses against Israel and then should be re-armed? What if after World War I, we gave weapons to Germany after the Armistance?

Don't kill the messenger. I'm just stating what I heard on CNN a few days ago.

..fair enough. This year the economy of Israel had seen the worset since 1953. But when you test economy you have to look at multiplie factors and look at the general trend over time. Let's remember that the size of israel population is the size of medium size city in the US. That is the whole story. However this had been said, we have to remember also that Israel had a huge growth during the 90'. Did you know that Intel and Microsoft have only one R&D developmant centers outside th US and that is in Israel? (Intel have another one in Irland) . Anyawy This two years were bad and this is election year, war on Iraq is coming so why not go to the Americans for some help. It's an easy way out and I don't like it but this is how politicians work. But this is not a question of life and death to Israel, other areas of coporation are, as I said before.

Also, Israel asked these loan gurantess after the gulf war, got the money in loans and never used half of it. It is still lying there in reserve. go figure.

. First, Israel is not a secular state, it's a Jewish state. It gives precedence to Jews in all legal aspects from citizenship, to land ownership, to voting.

Look we can argue about interpatations of facts, but let's try to be true to the facts. Israel is a democarcy by all standards. Israeli Arabs be it muslims or christians can vote! they also have around 10 sits in Israeli Parlament (out of 120) . Yes Israel is a jewish state but also democratic one and there are problems with that definition. Now if you refer to palstinines, they are not Israeli citizens, as far as I know nor they would like to be, they are fighting for thier own statehood, once they will have it alongside Israel then they will vote to the Palastinin institutions.

Xevious,

It IS the same way in America, where you must be an American to vote. Saying the Palestineans have the right to vote in Israel is like saying that the millions of illigal immigrants from Mexico should have the right to vote in the US.

If you are born in the US, you are a US citizen. If you are born in the occupied territories (what Israel considers part of Israel) than you are not an Israeli citizen. Tell me, if Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens, then what nation are they citizens of??

One more thing, illegal immigrants were not born in the US, so your argument is very weak.

Tom

ethan,

Now if you refer to palstinines, they are not Israeli citizens, as far as I know nor they would like to be, they are fighting for thier own statehood, once they will have it alongside Israel then they will vote to the Palastinin institutions.

You can't have it both ways. Either:

a) Palestine is part of Israel

or

b) Palestine is not part of Israel.

If Palestine IS part of Israel, then Palestinians must have the same rights as any other Israeli citizen.

If Palestine IS NOT part of Israel, than Israel should get the f#@$ out of Palestine.

You can't claim that Palestine is Israel, and then refuse to give fundamental rights to the people living in Palestine. That is not only hypocritical, but unjust as well. So you see, even if Palestine is part of Israel, Palestinians are still under occupation because the government and army that is controlling their lives, is not theirs.

Tom

If one was to read the treaty which founded Israel, you would know that there is supposed to be a Palestinean and a Jewish state. The problem is that this Palestinean state was never organized... this is because Jordan, Syria, and Egypt all attacked Israel immidietly after Israel was founded. When the dust cleared, the frontlines were between Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Israel. You can thank Jordan's repeated wars with Israel for a lack of a Palestinean state, and the current demilitarized zone.

I think you would find too if you bothered to read a history book, that before Israel was founded, Jews were buying up land in that area in droves from the Leboneise land owners who could not get anything in that area to grow.

Perhaps too, you are unaware that in 1998, Israel offered Arafat and the PLO 98% of all their demanded terretorial concessions including the founding of a Palestinean state and economic aid for establishing itself. The PLO declined this offer. Compromise is not something the PLO is interested in... it wants 100% of its demands met or it will continue to attack Israel. Such is the earmark of terrorists, and the PLO should be treated accordingly.

Originally posted by Xevious
it wants 100% of its demands met or it will continue to attack Israel.

What's wrong with 100%? It isn't asking for Israel to turn itself into an Arab state, it just wants a lot of land back, which is still less than what was awarded to it in 1947 (if this was given back AND Palestinians were given the right of return to Israel/Palestine [depending where their homeland is] as well as the right to vote in which of the two nations they lived in, Israel would be politically devastated and Jews would become a minority in a very small state of Israel with an "isthmus" in the south-central area, so this is why the PLO only seeks back the "occupied territories" and not all the land that was supposed to be given to them by the UN declaration.

And the earmark of terrorists? I seem to remember that the former leader of the IRA accepted the offer of all but 3 Irish counties, but because of that offer that didn't include all of Eire, the conflict continues in an even more heated manner than before (because it goes on in a smaller area)

Would you want this to happen in the Middle East too? Give them 98% of what they want, yes, good idea, that'll stop the conflict.

Mark, perhaps you can clear this up for me.
In 2000 the PLO had one demand I remember being clearly one of the reasons Arafat walked out. They wished to have all the relatives of all the past refugees and such allowed as citizens into Israel. Is the PLO still requesting this? I ask because this would actually make Jews a full-out minority in Israel and would obviously lead to a Palestinian government.

Xevious,

Perhaps too, you are unaware that in 1998, Israel offered Arafat and the PLO 98% of all their demanded terretorial concessions including the founding of a Palestinean state and economic aid for establishing itself. The PLO declined this offer. Compromise is not something the PLO is interested in... it wants 100% of its demands met or it will continue to attack Israel. Such is the earmark of terrorists, and the PLO should be treated accordingly.

Let's, for a moment, forget about Arafat, the PLO, Sharon, etc., and let's only focus on the rights of the individual.

For 36 years, the Palestinians in the occupied territories have not been able to vote for the government that is attempting to control them. To the Palestinians, the Israeli government is just as legit as the Iraqi government is to the Iraqi people. The Israeli government has no authority in the occupied areas, not because the land does not belong to Israel, but because the Palestinians have not voted to give the Israeli government authority.

You see, a government only has the authority that the people transfer to it in the process of voting.

You, for example, live in Texas. What would happen if the US Government denied the right of all Texans to vote in the federal elections? If that happened, the US Government would be stripped of it's authority to enter or do anything in Texas. The US military, if it refused to leave Texas, would become an illegitimate occupational force.

This applies to Palestine as well. As long as the Palestinians are not allowed to vote in the Israeli elections, the Israeli government and military have no authority to act in or enter into Palestine. And regardless of how bad Arafat, the PLO, or Palestinian terrorist orginazations are, there is no excuse for denying the Palestinians to vote for the government (Israeli) that is attempting to control their lives.

Tom

Israel is NAZI terrorist state, it ILLEGALY occupying other people land.

Israel is treating the palestineans in a way that make the nazis move in their graves.

The time has come to stand up to this TERRORIST NAZI STATE.

Originally posted by Xevious
Whoopie. The founding nation of Democracy, Greece, only allowed greek citizens to vote. It was the same way in Rome. It was the same way in the Ottoman empire. It IS the same way in America, where you must be an American to vote. Saying the Palestineans have the right to vote in Israel is like saying that the millions of illigal immigrants from Mexico should have the right to vote in the US.

So why the terrorist state of Israel dont get the f¤¤¤ out of the palestinean land and gives the palestineans their FREEDOM and INDEPENDENCE ???

Apartheid Laws in Israel -
The Art of The Obfuscatory Formulation

Excerpts from an article by Uzi Ornan
Published in the Israeli Daily Ha'aretz.

It is impossible to turn one's back on reality and deny that the State of Israel is not, likewise, an Apartheid state, and that as a result of this, Israeli democracy - which all its leaders and political pundits swear by - is being perverted, if not destroyed. This Apartheid has been entrenched in a system of laws, regulations and practices which govern the operation of state institutions. What characterizes most of those discriminatory laws that have been legislated in various Knesset is that on the surface, they do not appear to be discriminatory. However, a more in-depth analysis of some of the basic ones quickly reveals the extent to which they discriminate between "Jews" and "non-Jews". By studying them one cannot fail to reach a conclusion, which cannot but be embarrassing to many of us: namely, that Israel is an Apartheid state, and the Apartheid not only manifests itself socially, but that it is also embedded in the legal system. The following is devoted to a few of these laws.(Full text here (http://www.jeffsarchive.com/israel/Apartheid%20Laws%20in%20Israel.html))

Moderator Edit – reduce length of quoted text

Same can be said about the USA and saddly it is ture :D

] Apartheid Laws in Israel -

Nice to be able to quote this sort of article from a major daily Israeli newspaper.. I bet you will not be able to bring one from an arab newspaper that critiques the system in one of the 22 arab states.

In response to Tyler, there were several sticky points of disatisfaction that Arafat had apart from the one you mentioned, there was the problem of Jerusalem.
Arfat wanted 50 % of it and also wanted to use it as the capital of Palestine.

Then there was the problem of the invading Jewish settlements on UN sanctioned Palestinian territory, and this is the biggest issue at the moment.

I've heard/read it after/before every terrorist attack on Israelis'. The terrorists organizations continue to say that if Israel withdraws/removes from every UN sanctioned Palestinian territory then they would stop their terrorist activities.
And this is the biggest thorn in the side of a significant peaceful discussion.
Arafat and just about all of the Palestinian people understands this and very few people anywhere else in the world does.

My guess is that Arafat,most of the Palestinian leadership and a very high percentage of the Palestinian people want the terrorism to stop but they are totally powerless to reign in their fanatics desires/actions.

Originally posted by ethan
]

Nice to be able to quote this sort of article from a major daily Israeli newspaper.. I bet you will not be able to bring one from an arab newspaper that critiques the system in one of the 22 arab states.

We have many arabic newspapers that do the same.

Al-jazeera channel is one of those FREE Arabic channels that criticize nearly most of the corupt governments in the arab world(which are supported by the USA !)

Exactly that’s why everyone hates the USofA! This might supries some of you but we where the ones that put Sudam “insane” in power! Why do you think 9/11 happened? You think it was because every one across the world is jellies? NO its because are government got the nation to were it is by @#$% over other governments!

though the arab news network is infact control... you see thoughs dictators make sure that america is blamed and not them.

Originally posted by WellCookedFetus
Exactly that’s why everyone hates the USofA! This might supries some of you but we where the ones that put Sudam “insane” in power! Why do you think 9/11 happened? You think it was because every one across the world is jellies? NO its because are government got the nation to were it is by @#$% over other governments!

though the arab news network is infact control... you see thoughs dictators make sure that america is blamed and not them.

I am not blaming the US for every ill in the Arab world, but the US has a lot to answer....A LOT.

That is exactly why Al jazira is banned on Kuwait . Also in Syria Iraq and many more

AOn the 23 of Dec a Syrian journalist was jailed for publishing an article that not against, but that only a bit embarassed the Syrain goverment. (it was all over the british press, the british embassador gave a protest) Open your eyes.. those countries are in the middle age and it is not the fualt of America, how nice when you have someone to blame.. .

Originally posted by Green_World
I am not blaming the US for every ill in the Arab world, but the US has a lot to answer....A LOT.

I only agree with that! It not our fault its either vote for evil guy on the right or stupid guy on left... twice the number of chooces the people of iraq have

Originally posted by ethan
That is exactly why Al jazira is banned on Kuwait . Also in Syria Iraq and many more

AOn the 23 of Dec a Syrian journalist was jailed for publishing an article that not against, but that only a bit embarassed the Syrain goverment. (it was all over the british press, the british embassador gave a protest) Open your eyes.. those countries are in the middle age and it is not the fualt of America, how nice when you have someone to blame.. .

How ABSURD can you be?

Aljazeera is SATELLITE channel, you can't BAN it.

regarding Syria, this specific journalist promoted FALSE accusations which is against the Syrian law...he should be punished.

you need to come to the middle east to see by your own eyes how developed we are....at least we dont have GUN CULTURE in our streets.. we dont have CRIMINAL roaming our streets like in your country.

WE ARE SAFE IN OUR HOUSES...........YOU ARE NOT.

Green_World,

regarding Syria, this specific journalist promoted FALSE accusations which is against the Syrian law...he should be punished.

What have you been smoking???Have you ever heard of something called "human rights". You object to the treatment of Palestinians by Israelis, and then you condone punishing a journalist for saying something that the Syrian government doesn't agee with.

you need to come to the middle east to see by your own eyes how developed we are....at least we dont have GUN CULTURE in our streets.. we dont have CRIMINAL roaming our streets like in your country.

Because you DON'T have a gun culture, you have criminals roaming in your governments instead.

Tom

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Prosoothus
[B]Green_World,

What have you been smoking???Have you ever heard of something called "human rights". You object to the treatment of Palestinians by Israelis, and then you condone punishing a journalist for saying something that the Syrian government doesn't agee with.
====================================

G W:


This journalist did not say something the Syrian 'government' did not like, he said LIES, do you understand the meaning of LIES?
According to the SYRIAN LAW anyone who promote FALSE lies will be punished in front of the LAW.

Even in your 'CIVILIZED' countries, so many law suits filled every day against journalists and newspapers that falsefuly promote LIES........SO DONT BE HYPOCRITE.

==================================

Because you DON'T have a gun culture, you have criminals roaming in your governments instead.

Tom

G W:
Are you saying your government is NOT criminal ? you are the BIGGEST TERRORIST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, according to the latest poll by the TIME, your country got NO.1 as the BIGGEST THREAT TO WORLD PEACE:

Go to this link, vote and see amazing results:

http://www.time.com/time/europe/gdml/peace2003.html

Also, you might find this link interesting as well:

http://www.americanstateterrorism.com

how do you know waht he was saying was a lie?

Originally posted by WellCookedFetus
how do you know waht he was saying was a lie?

He was saying that the Syrian government is building camps for the potenial Iraqi refugees that will come to Syria in case there is war.

Now, I am Syrian, I know what's going on near the border, there is NO camps, he is promoting FALSE lies that might cost Syria MILLIONS of dollars and he is promoting the idea of another REFUGEES PROBELM.

Green_World,

This journalist did not say something the Syrian 'government' did not like, he said LIES, do you understand the meaning of LIES?

I see that in your country, truth and lies are determined by the government. How convenient for the government, and how inconvenient for the press.

you are the BIGGEST TERRORIST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, according to the latest poll by the TIME, your country got NO.1 as the BIGGEST THREAT TO WORLD PEACE:

Now your in trouble. The US Government has officially determined that your statement is a lie. Now, you will have to be punished. :)

Tom

Originally posted by Prosoothus

I see that in your country, truth and lies are determined by the government. How convenient for the government, and how inconvenient for the press.
================================
G W:


ok, Let us assume that an american journalist reported that war with IRAQ has already began !! who should decide the truth, the journalist or the America government ????????????????????

=================================
Now your in trouble. The US Government has officially determined that your statement is a lie. Now, you will have to be punished. :)

Tom [/B]

Man, we respect the LAW in Syria as well, what do you think about us ?? come and have nice visit to my warm hospitable homeland, I had 12 American friends who came and visit my country and they were very impressed and SURPRISED by the development and the FREEDOM woman enjoy in my country, depending on jewish-controled news such as the CNN and FOX news is ABSURD.

Green_World,

Man, we respect the LAW in Syria as well, what do you think about us ?? come and have nice visit to my warm hospitable homeland, I had 12 American friends who came and visit my country and they were very impressed and SURPRISED by the development and the FREEDOM woman enjoy in my country, depending on jewish-controled news such as the CNN and FOX news is ABSURD.

I'm happy to hear that women in your country have freedoms, but I have a problem with any government deciding what the truth is.

The base of democracy is the right to vote. And to vote intelligently, people must be able to get unbiased information. If the government decides which information is true and which information isn't, the government will determine that any information that questions its actions, is untrue. Because of this, the press will be afraid of release this information to the public, which will result in a misinformed public.

This is why in the US, our Constitution protects the freedom of speech, even if the speech is untrue.

Tom

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Prosoothus

I'm happy to hear that women in your country have freedoms, but I have a problem with any government deciding what the truth is.

The base of democracy is the right to vote. And to vote intelligently, people must be able to get unbiased information. If the government decides which information is true and which information isn't, the government will determine that any information that questions its actions, is untrue. Because of this, the press will be afraid of release this information to the public, which will result in a misinformed public.

This is why in the US, our Constitution protects the freedom of speech, even if the speech is untrue.
==============================

I agree, but do you think you get unbiased information about the middle east and the Muslim world ?????????????????????????

Green_World,

I agree, but do you think you get unbiased information about the middle east and the Muslim world ?????????????????????????

Not from the big ones (like CNN). But I am finding that some of the other news agencies, like MSNBC, are reporting the news more fairly than they did before. Hopefully this trend will continue.

But you also have to remember that the news agencies don't have as much access in the Muslim countries as they do elsewhere. Most Muslim countries are dictatoriships, so they fear the international press, and, as a result, put major restrictions on the press (if they even allow them to enter the country). As a result, the press reports more about the governments in Muslim countries than the people. To a person watching the news, it can results in an distorted view of the people in Muslim countries.

Tom

So why the terrorist state of Israel dont get the f¤¤¤ out of the palestinean land and gives the palestineans their FREEDOM and INDEPENDENCE ???

I think you ignored me when I mentioned Israel offered the PLO 98% of their territorial and economic demands, INCLUDING their independence from Israel. No one has answered Tyler's argument that if the Palestineans had the right to vote in Israel, the PLO would effectively take the majority and turn Israel into a Palestinean state. Nor, has anyone answered my assertion that Palestein does not exist because Jordan, Syria, and Egypt attacked Israel and moved the frontlines over the Palestinean territory.

It is unfair to push this problem entirely on Israel when they were first off not the first to open fire, not the first to change the terrotorial boundaries. All the Jews wanted was a little piece of land to build their homes after the Holocaust and be left alone... unfortunetly the British saw to it that they were left with unpeaceable neighbors. The surrounding Arab countries saw to it that they were not left alone. It seems that no matter where they go, someone tries to wipe them out.

There has not been any peace for the Jews since the Romans took Israel from them. Well... kick someone around enough and they get tired of it. You can whine and complain about Israel all you want, but morally no one has any more right than they do.

Xevious,

No one has answered Tyler's argument that if the Palestineans had the right to vote in Israel, the PLO would effectively take the majority and turn Israel into a Palestinean state.

I agree with you. The whites shouldn't of let the blacks vote in South Africa since the blacks would turn South Africa into a "black state". The British shouldn't let the Catholics in Northern Ireland vote because Britian might then become a Catholic state. The Iraqi government shouldn't let the Iraqis vote because in that case the Iraqi government would lose power.

I totally agree with you and Tyler. Why should we let the majority rule?? After all, isn't minority rule much better??? After all, who needs democracy when you can have dictatorships??? Down with democracy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Note: There are hints of sarcasm in this post. :)

Tom

Interesting, Tom... the idea of the total overthrow of a legitimate and recognized government by a population coup. You still haven't answered my point on why the Arab League and not Israel is responsible for their not being a Palestinean state. You just love suicide bombers and the countries which are supporting them, and are responsible for them being there. Sooo... the Arab Legue causes there to be no Palestein by going to war with Israel, then supports the PLO against Israel. I wish you would see what really happened.

The Palestineans are an unwilling pawn between Israel and it's Arab neighbors, a situation caused by the Arab nations in order to cause problems for Israel. It is funny, that even if they couldn't carry out their objective of destroying Israel by military force, that they resorted to seeding internal unrest. It works.

So, who's side are you on? Do you sympathize with Israel for having an unjust situation dumped in it's lap, do you sympathize with the Palestineans for being caught in the middle, or do you support the Arab League's attempt to destroy Israel?

Isn't it wonderful to see just how easy ones perceptions can be manipulated? Much like the schoolyard bully who shoves a kid around and gets the other one to retaliate, and then runs to the teacher when he ends up with a black eye...

Xevious,

You still haven't answered my point on why the Arab League and not Israel is responsible for their not being a Palestinean state.

The reason that Palestinians don't have their own country is everyone's fault: The Israelis, Palestinians, and the Arab League.

However, only one party is responsible for Palestinians not having the right to vote in their own country (whether you consider their country Palestine or Israel), and that is Israel.

Tom

Arab Israelis can vote!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! they have more than 10 sits in Israeli parlament including members who are calling for the destruction of Israel. (Azmi Beshara) and advisor to Arafat (Tibi)

Palastinien in the west are under formal ocupation !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Since the oslo agreement they vote for the PA. If Israel would grant them voting rights to Israel it will mean a final annaxtion to Israel. That's not what all of you want!!!!!!!!!! this is what the extrem right in Israel wants!!!!


Please study the facts first, then we can argue over interpetations

I don't see how Israel is reponsible for their not being being a Palestein. They didn't declare war on anyone.

Originally posted by Prosoothus
Green_World,



Not from the big ones (like CNN). But I am finding that some of the other news agencies, like MSNBC, are reporting the news more fairly than they did before. Hopefully this trend will continue.

But you also have to remember that the news agencies don't have as much access in the Muslim countries as they do elsewhere. Most Muslim countries are dictatoriships, so they fear the international press, and, as a result, put major restrictions on the press (if they even allow them to enter the country). As a result, the press reports more about the governments in Muslim countries than the people. To a person watching the news, it can results in an distorted view of the people in Muslim countries.

Tom

This is not true tim, even ín the height of the Taliban era, western journalists had free access to many muslim countries.

we are 54 Muslim country, we have handful of dictators, the rest of the Muslim world is just fine.

you can check the BBC for example, they have journalists nearly in every major arab or muslim country.

ethan,

Palastinien in the west are under formal ocupation !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How convenient for Israel. When people ask Israel why is it in the West Bank and Gaza strip, Israel says because they are part of Israel, but when people ask Israel why the Palestinians aren't allowed to vote, than Israel says that the Gaza Strip and West Bank are not part Israel, but are under occupation by Israel.

As a stated twice before, either:

1) Palestine is part of Israel.

or

2) Palestine is not part of Israel.


If Palestine is part of Israel, then Palestinians should have the full rights of Israeli citizens (including the right to vote). If Palestine is not part of Israel, then Israel should get the f*#& out of Palestine. You can't claim that a territory is part of your country and then claim that the people living on that territory are not.

Tom

WELL SAID TOM.


Moderator Edit – really no need to quote the entire previous post for that. :)

LIke I said, Tom. Israel didn't cause this situation and offered the PLO over 98% of everything they had ever wanted. If you still want to take the PLO's side that is up to you... but it goes to show that the attacks against Israel aren't justified... indeed, they are terrorists no better than Al Quaida... and Israel is justified to wipe them out if they have to.

Xevious,

Israel didn't cause this situation and offered the PLO over 98% of everything they had ever wanted.

Screw the PLO. What did the Israel offer to Palestinian individuals?

The rejection of a peace plan by the PLO doesn't mean that Palestinians forfeit their fundamental human rights (including the right to vote). Regardless of whether the holy land belongs to the Jews, the Palestinians, or both, it is a fundamental right of the Palestinians to be able to vote for, or against, the governments that are controlling their lives (whether it's the Israeli, or the Palestinian government).

While land can always be negotiated for, the right to vote is a fundamental right that can't be traded by the PLO, the Israelis, or anyone else.

Tom

If Palestine is part of Israel, then Palestinians should have the full rights of Israeli citizens (including the right to vote). If Palestine is not part of Israel, then Israel should get the f*#& out of Palestine. You can't claim that a territory is part of your country and then claim that the people living on that territory are not.

1. I agree Israel should pull out. So does the majority of Israelis. (every survey proves that) Now why do they vote Sharon? they vote for Sharon to execute the Labor plans, which calls for immidiate withdrawl to te 67 borders, yes I know it is a pardox, bot it will be hard and long to explain.
2. Israel should withdrawl not only for the Palestninien sake but most of all for its own sake. The two very diffrent population should seprate and live under two diffrent system. Maybe in 200 hundred years they will be able to live togther, not now.
3. What should Israel do when it will go back to the 67 borders, a palstinien state will be established , but terror attack swill continue by extrem group that want to have whole of Israel , just like what happends on the Lebanese border today? so how should Israel respnd then?

[QUOTE]This is not true tim, even ?n the height of the Taliban era, western journalists had free access to many muslim countries. we are 54 Muslim country, we have handful of dictators, the rest of the Muslim world is just fine.

Name one country that is a true democracy, maybe maybe Turkey, which the EU still think it is not there yet in regard to human rights and the role of the army. Thae sad fact is that the Arab and muslim world is in the middle age, in every aspect: regime , science, economy, education, womens right and you name it.

Originally posted by ethan
Name one country that is a true democracy, maybe maybe Turkey, which the EU still think it is not there yet in regard to human rights and the role of the army. The sad fact is that the Arab and muslim world is in the middle age, in every aspect: regime , science, economy, education, womens right and you name it.

Thank God eer Allah someone agrees with me on that. Ever read the book "Islam and the West" by Bernard Lewis he takes a very neutral view on this debate by looking at the pure histroy of it all.

Originally posted by WellCookedFetus
Thank God eer Allah someone agrees with me on that. Ever read the book "Islam and the West" by Bernard Lewis he takes a very neutral view on this debate by looking at the pure histroy of it all.

How ignorant you guys are ??

Many Arabs and muslims have got NOBLE prize for science and literature.

In fact, the head of the INTERNATIONAL AGENCY OF ATOMIC ENERGY IS AN ARAB MUSLIM: Dr. Muhammad El-Baradi'.

and the list goes on and on.

Yes Islam is advance in the sciences in fact it was more advance then the west for hundreds of year, But in human rights you guys are waaaay behind!

Yes Islam is advance in the sciences in fact it was more advance then the west for hundreds of year, But in human rights you guys are waaaay behind!

yes, it was advance on science until about 500 hundered years ago . Since Islam is stuck in every important area. The arabs within Islam are in the worse shape. And as long they will continue to blame the west for it I don't see how they will ever get out of it.

Look at the UN last report on the state of the areb nations.

And by the way it is not to say that there are'nt arabs muslims individuals who do very well in science or other fields, but this is beside the argument

to Xerious and the israel jusyication scene

Try the experience of livng in a sharehouse for a year or two.

QUOTE]Try the experience of livng in a sharehouse for a year or two.[/QUOTE]

??? can you try English?

Originally posted by ethan
yes, it was advance on science until about 500 hundered years ago . Since Islam is stuck in every important area. The arabs within Islam are in the worse shape. And as long they will continue to blame the west for it I don't see how they will ever get out of it.

Look at the UN last report on the state of the areb nations.

LOOK at the latest report by AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL about the israeli crimes in Palestine.

.LOOK at the latest report by AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL about the israeli crimes in Palestine.

No, you should look at the UN report on the arab and muslim states first. The same UN that you hold as so holy.
The fact that you compare Israel to Nazis only plays against you. It shows how little you know about WW2 and the Nazis or that you don't care. Anyway arabs had killed other arabs in much great numbers that Israeli killed arabs. Do you need some remainders? do I realy need to list all the wars among arabs and other arabs since 1948? Not to mention that in almost every major conflict in the world since ww2 arabs are taking part at least as one side. But of course, I forgot it is all because of Israel and the west.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ethan
[B].

No, you should look at the UN report on the arab and muslim states first. The same UN that you hold as so holy.
The fact that you compare Israel to Nazis only plays against you. It shows how little you know about WW2 and the Nazis or that you don't care. Anyway arabs had killed other arabs in much great numbers that Israeli killed arabs. Do you need some remainders? do I realy need to list all the wars among arabs and other arabs since 1948? Not to mention that in almost every major conflict in the world since ww2 arabs are taking part at least as one side. But of course, I forgot it is all because of Israel and the west.
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Israel was established by the BIGGEST ARMED ROBBERY ON EARTH, it is based on FANATIC religious ideology( the chosen people CARP), THE JEWS in Israel believe as the NAZIS did that they are SUPERIOR.

ISRAEL= NAZI STATE............FACT.

Israel is by its nature, an occupation state. it unjustly, and against numerous UN resolutions, continues to exist and further occupies parts of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt. it needs to leave those "occupied territories" immediately. then perhaps the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip could be made into a "new" Palestine and most of Israel's problems would be solved. as to the issue of US aid to Israel, I believe that it should be halted immediately. that aid should be funneled into deserving charities and government programs at home. finally, Ariel Sharon first needs to lose this current election and second needs to be shot numerous times in the head with an Uzi. that is all.

Because the way to resolve violence is, of course, more violence. :rolleyes:

The rejection of a peace plan by the PLO doesn't mean that Palestinians forfeit their fundamental human rights (including the right to vote). Regardless of whether the holy land belongs to the Jews, the Palestinians, or both, it is a fundamental right of the Palestinians to be able to vote for, or against, the governments that are controlling their lives (whether it's the Israeli, or the Palestinian government).

If what you say is true, then why has the PLO been the major party which it has been agreed upon internationally to represent the Palestineans? Shouldn't you then, by your own thinking, be denouncing the PLO? Who would represent the Palestineans if not the PLO? Where is your alternetive solution?

.Israel was established by the BIGGEST ARMED ROBBERY ON EARTH, it is based on FANATIC religious ideology( the chosen people CARP), THE JEWS in Israel believe as the NAZIS did that they are SUPERIOR.

This is the kind of things Israelis have to deal with on a daily basis. That is why they feel a bit nervous when all of you who live in the comfort of the west suggests all kindd of nice peace deals.. just give everything back and everything will be ok... the arabs will love you as brothers , sorry cusions

Hey Goofish
you have nothing to say on this equation? last time I suggested that some people post this as a legtimate opinion you wanted evidence , so here they are[QUOTE]ISRAEL= NAZI

You guys can talk all you want about Israel. You don't see Israeli kids blowing up civilians in coffe shops, school buses, or total strangers. You also don't see Jewish parents recieving money from Saddam Hussane for encouraging their children to be suicide bombers.