Feminist teacher defends her prostitution
Says women have right to self-determination, sexually and economically

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Posted: August 28, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern



© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

A Berkeley, Calif., High School teacher is defending her moonlighting career as a prostitute, comparing herself to Martin Luther King Jr. in her fight to decriminalize the vocation.

"As a feminist I believe in every woman's right to self-determination, and that includes sexually and economically,'' Shannon Williams, 37, told the San Jose Mercury News.

Williams, a former biology teacher who became a field-trip coordinator last year, was arrested earlier this month in her Oakland apartment, the paper said. Police say she agreed to have sex with an undercover cop for $250 an hour.

The woman is determined to eliminate laws against the world's oldest profession.

"I feel like a gay teacher must have felt 20 years ago after being outed,'' she told the San Jose paper. "I feel that prostitution laws are dinosaurs. That they're similar to sodomy laws, and they will eventually be repealed.''

About 20 supporters of her position held a rally outside Alameda County Superior Court yesterday, one of whom was arrested for taking off her shirt, the San Francisco Chronicle reported.

During a brief hearing in the courthouse, Williams' plea entry was delayed a week at the request of her lawyer, reported Bay City News.

The teacher told reporters outside the courthouse she believed women in the "sex industry" are entrepreneurs and should have the same rights as other workers.

According to the Mercury News, Williams complained that during her arrest eight to 10 police officers alleged refused to let her get dressed.

"I felt they were looking at me like an animal or something," she said. "I had this real desire to tell them, 'I'm not who you think I am. I'm a person with dignity and pride.'"

Williams could strike a plea bargain, which would include a misdemeanor charge and a small fine.

Where is your opinion about it? :bugeye:

It's hard to say if it's right or not. I'm not against her choice : if a woman wants to be a prostitute then she should be allowed to do it. However, she is a teacher too and as long as she must be an example to her students, it can be a problem. It depends on the age of the students and their behavior in front of the prostitution.

IMO, nowadays, it's not a good idea to be both a teacher and a prostitute.

Originally posted by SG-N

IMO, nowadays, it's not a good idea to be both a teacher and a prostitute.

You say nowadays, does that mean that there once was a time, when it was a good idea, or do you expect that to come in the future?

One century ago, a teacher that would have shown her knees would have lost her job... so in the future, we will be used to more and more "strange" things. I guess that this kind of thread will not exist anymore in less than 50 years (and I'm pessimistic here).

What about you?

Dumb...... if she's an elementary school teacher, she should have gone completely undercover for that.....

My mistake : "a former biology teacher who became a field-trip coordinator last year".
She is not a teacher anymore... Anyway, it doesn't change my opinion about it.

curioucity :
She was in high school.

50 years from now, when prostitution is legalized and is being taxed by the gov't, a mother is talking to her 7 year old daughter before tucking her in to sleep:

-so, Britney, what do you want to be when you grow up?
--I wanna be a prostitute, mommy.
-you are as cute as a button, and so smart too! a great idea sweety. that's the way to show your freedom, AND make a decent living :) i have the best daughter in the whole world.

When someone posts an excerpt from an article, or in this case the entire article, an accompanying link nevertheless would seem appropriate.

Originally posted by otheadp
that's the way to show your freedom, AND make a decent living
That's one way to show your freedom, AND make a decent living. (It must be a choice.)

Isn't it the same with porn movies? No... you don't only sale your body : you sale your "image" too!

it's not that i'm against prostitution. personally, i think the patrons are a little pathetic but the providers are doing well for themselves. it's the most money a woman can make. so while this is a good reason to make it legal and demarginalize it, it also wouldn't be necessary if women could make enough money in "men's" fields to support themselves. this teacher is the exception. most prostitutes only do it because they have to, they'd starve to death otherwise.

i have an old college friend who became a stripper. we all kind of shake our heads at her and mutter under our breaths about what a shame it is. but the truth of the matter is that when she comes around, she's sporting $500 coats, snorting 1000's of dollars worth of coke (another head shaker). take what you will from that.

She can sell her labor in one way, why can't she sell it in another?
You want capitolism and democracy, you want the rights of the individual to determine what they do with their body so long as they do not infringe on another's right - you fucking put up with prostitution.
If your culture was not saturated with disgust for the female body, you would not even blink at this.

She can sell her labor in one way, why can't she sell it in another?

Does the people pay for her sexual diseases, the customers, or her pimp? Maybe we should rule out the pimp here because she's a real entrepreneur.


You want capitolism and democracy, you want the rights of the individual to determine what they do with their body so long as they do not infringe on another's right

The goverment has laws against drugs, seatbelts, and labor laws neither of which infringe on someone else's rights. Doesn't the right of goverment to protect us include even ourselves?


If your culture was not saturated with disgust for the female body, you would not even blink at this.

This is Xeve the woman with no morals. :confused: Should we take away the indecent exposure laws or compromise with fig leaves?

okinrus:
Does the people pay for her sexual diseases, the customers, or her pimp? Maybe we should rule out the pimp here because she's a real entrepreneur.

I'm presuming you have a point here.

The goverment has laws against drugs,

Which should be scrapped except in certain cases.

seatbelts,

My right to not wear a seatbelt does not trump your right not to have to pay for my paraplegic ass if I get in an accident.

and labor laws neither of which infringe on someone else's rights.

Labor laws protect the workers from their employers, not from themselves.

Doesn't the right of goverment to protect us include even ourselves?

No. Nor does my government have a "right" to protect me. It is based on my consent to be governed, not any abstract "right".

Should we take away the indecent exposure laws or compromise with fig leaves?

I have no clue what you're on about or how you derive this from my statement.

At the risk of making your head explode, I think that reading Ain't Nobodies Business If You Do (http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/aint/toc.htm) would do you a world of good, Okinrus. And you too, Biblthmp.

THIS BOOK IS BASED on a single idea: You should be allowed to do whatever you want with your own person and property, as long as you don't physically harm the person or property of a nonconsenting other.

Simple. Seemingly guaranteed to us by that remarkable document known as United States Constitution and its even more remarkable Bill of Rights. And yet, it's not the way things are.

Roughly half of the arrests and court cases in the United States each year involve consensual crimes—actions that are against the law, but directly harm no one's person or property except, possibly, the "criminal's."

More than 750,000 people are in jail right now because of something they did, something that did not physically harm the person or property of another. In addition, more than 3,000,000 people are on parole or probation for consensual crimes. Further, more than 4,000,000 people are arrested each year for doing something that hurts no one but, potentially, themselves.

The injustice doesn't end there, of course. Throwing people in jail is the extreme. If you can throw people in jail for something, you can fire them for the same reason. You can evict them from their apartments. You can deny them credit. You can expel them from schools. You can strip away their civil rights, confiscate their property, and destroy their lives—just because they're different.

At what point does behavior become so unacceptable that we should tell our government to lock people up? The answer, as explored in this book: We lock people up only when they physically harm the person or property of a nonconsenting other.

Contained in this answer is an important assumption: after a certain age, our persons and property belong to us. Yes, if we harm ourselves it may emotionally harm others. That's unfortunate, but not grounds for putting us in jail. If it were, every time we stopped dating person A in order to date person B, we would run the risk of going to jail for hurting person A. If person B were hurt by our being put in jail, person A could be put in jail for hurting person B. This would, of course, hurt person A's mother, who would see to it that person B would go to jail. Eventually, we'd all be in jail. As silly as that situation sounds, it is precisely the logic used by some to protect the idea of consensual crimes. Arguments in favor of laws against any consensual activity are usually variations of "It's not moral!" And where does the objector's sense of morality come from? For the most part, his or her religion. Some claim "cultural values" as the basis of morality, but where does this set of cultural values come from? The sharing of a similar religion. To a large degree, we have created a legal system that is, to quote Alan Watts, "clergymen with billy clubs." Says Watts:

The police have enough work to keep them busy regulating automobile traffic, preventing robberies and crimes of violence and helping lost children and little old ladies find their way home. As long as the police confine themselves to such activities they are respected friends of the public. But as soon as they begin inquiring into people's private morals, they become nothing more than armed clergymen.

It is a great book, and it is free!

Labor laws protect the workers from their employers, not from themselves.

The worker makes a contract with the employer knowing full well the conditions in most cases.


My right to not wear a seatbelt does not trump your right not to have to pay for my paraplegic ass if I get in an accident.

I have no problem having the goverment pay others medical bill even for someone like you but it's not something that beneficial for us and so should be avoided. And why should the goverment
allow their people to go to unproductive trash because they chose to? Could these people then have to be drafted in the army? Isn't that a requirement for being a US citizen?



No. Nor does my government have a "right" to protect me. It is based on my consent to be governed, not any abstract "right".

While there are some self-evident rights, for the most part, your rights are granted to you by the goverment.


At the risk of making your head explode, I think that reading Ain't Nobodies Business If You Do would do you a world of good, Okinrus. And you too, Biblthmp.

Throwing her into jail may not be the best option but allowing prostitution does not solve anything.


That's unfortunate, but not grounds for putting us in jail. If it were, every time we stopped dating person A in order to date person B, we would run the risk of going to jail for hurting person A. If person B were hurt by our being put in jail, person A could be put in jail for hurting person B.

Emotional harm done here is usually temporary. Drugs and prostitution cause emotional and physical harm. Not only that, the woman has placed herself in a position where she could be abused or rape.

"Allowing" prostitution? No one needs to allow it, it is going on around us, all of the time. It is more a matter of telling government to butt out of things that are of no concern to it.

Don't like prostitution? Don't pick up any prostitutes. Making it illegal only drives it underground.

Freedom to only make the "right" choice is no freedom at all.

BTW, has anyone else noticed that it isn't illegal to have sex for money? But you have to be in the adult film industry, and have a third party pay both of you, rather than either of the participants paying the other.

Don't like prostitution? Don't pick up any prostitutes. Making it illegal only drives it underground.

I'm not fully concerned with myself in any issue. More or less, in any moral issue we have to judge the effects it could have on others. Significant others such as our school mates, friends, wifes, husbands etc. So for example while legalizing cocaine would not affect me directly, it might affect a friend of mine who might unwittingly succumb to the curosity and try it. Well once that decision is made, it is pretty much made for good because an addict has a very hard time stopping his or her addiction. So the addict who once had freewill, does not dispite actually wanting to quit. We can make the claim here that not giving people a chance to become addicts actually increases our freewill. Another problem is that legalizing a substance would also affect treatment. If the police can't catch them, then how will they go to treatment> Or maybe you don't think that cocain addicts deserve treatment, but I and most american's do.

Quote: it also wouldn't be necessary if women could make enough money in "men's" fields to support themselves. this teacher is the exception. most prostitutes only do it because they have to, they'd starve to death otherwise.

Women in many under-developed countries are forced into prostitution for survival but this is seldom true in the West. In Denmark and Holland where there is a good social welfare system and free education prostitution flourishes. In Denmark 'pimping' a sex trade worker is illegal but a woman selling sex is not. In Holland it is controlled and taxed and even unionized; they have access to health care and std testing. Moralizing about prostitution does not deter the practise and only marginalizes the women. The Mayflower Madame could have made many a lucrative choice with her Harvard education and privileged background but she chose to be a madam instead. Legalization would clean up the street corners and make the profession safer which means they would not need a pimp.

It is a great book, and it is free!
That book just took half an hour of my life that I'll never get back.
It's monetarily free, and it's well worth that price.

I agree with the writer's basic ideology, but the arguments in the book are not good.

Rating: 0.5 stars

Okinrus please explain why you compare a cocaine addiction to buying or selling sex?

I understand you think it is your duty to protect people from themselves but in actuality ITS NOT!! You have your moral principles and others have their own. Strange how in the land of freedom everyone is busy trying to restrict their neighbors from behaviour that does not concern them. Do you have any other suggestion for eradicating prostitution other than prision? Prison has not stopped the oldest profession from a continued existence.

It has been reported that during military exercises in Thailand marines were told that the country is 100% hiv positive and avoid the red light districts. After their shore leave it was noted that 75% of the men went ahead and procured sex anyway. So much for the warnings.

Well Pete, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it more. I enjoyed reading it when it was first published in 1993. And I like to review it from time to time. And I think many more people need to read it.

Amazon readers have given it 4 and 1/2 stars. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0931580587/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/102-1273742-8379341?v=glance&s=books&vi=customer-reviews)

Okinrus please explain why you compare a cocaine addiction to buying or selling sex?

1 Dangerous
2 Destroys families
3 Possible addiction


I understand you think it is your duty to protect people from themselves but in actuality ITS NOT!! You have your moral principles and others have their own. Strange how in the land of freedom everyone is busy trying to restrict their neighbors from behaviour that does not concern them.

One of my moral principles is to protect others more than myself. Do we want a culture where people stand by carelessly or do we want others to actually care for us?


Do you have any other suggestion for eradicating prostitution other than prision? Prison has not stopped the oldest profession from a continued existence.

Prison sentances have to be done on a case by basis. Anyways probation, fines, community service and job training would be good options.


It has been reported that during military exercises in Thailand marines were told that the country is 100% hiv positive and avoid the red light districts. After their shore leave it was noted that 75% of the men went ahead and procured sex anyway. So much for the warnings.

And this study was from where?

okinrus:
The worker makes a contract with the employer knowing full well the conditions in most cases.

This is because of labour laws (among other factors)

And why should the goverment
allow their people to go to unproductive trash because they chose to? Could these people then have to be drafted in the army? Isn't that a requirement for being a US citizen?

No.

While there are some self-evident rights, for the most part, your rights are granted to you by the goverment.

If this was true, they wouldn't be rights.

I obey my government (fairly well) because I still have a say in it. It protects my interests.
The second it fails to do so I have the right to alter or abolish it.

This is the way the founders of my country wanted things to be, not some fascist's paradise where every controlling fuckwit can infringe upon my rights at their leisure.

One of my moral principles is to protect others more than myself.

You controlling, egomaniacal fool. You have a right to do whatever you wish so long as you do not trespass unto another person's rights.
This is all you get, domineering little Jesusboy.

Do we want a culture where people stand by carelessly or do we want others to actually care for us?

Personally, I'd like them to go for me as far as I'd go for them - to defend my rights. You want a culture of oversocialized sheep, move to China - but even they are modernizing, so you might have problems there too.

Emotional harm done here is usually temporary. Drugs and prostitution cause emotional and physical harm.

Since when were you the great arbitrar of other people's choices?

Not only that, the woman has placed herself in a position where she could be abused or rape.

And throwing her onto the street, then yanking her back into jail from time to time while her clients, beloved sons of your precious Judeo-Christian patriarchy, get away scott free, so that she can face social stigma and prison rape, is humane?

You're so fucking humane, okinrus. Personally, I'd rather be buried to my neck and left to the ants than deal with humane people like you. At least the ants aren't hypocrites.

Okinrus, neither you nor anyone else have the "right" to tell me what I can ingest. If I, or anyone else, choose to throw our lives away by drinking Alcohol, smoking cigarets, or weed, or crack, or by huffing paint or snorting asbestos, that is none of your business.

Our bodies are not property of the state.

Our present drug laws are both stupid, and completely inconsistent. You can poison your body with Alcohol, but not Heroin or Cocaine? Abusing all 3 is stupid if you ask me, but it is not my place to make people live the way I think they should.

Okinrus there are already penalties and jail terms for soliciting and it does not make a dent in the activity.

You say prostitution is dangerous? For whom? Most prostitutes carry and insist on condoms and what is more interesting is that they are MORE likely to practise safe sex than the teenage college student on spring break!

If it is an addiction that is still not your concern. You will not change anothers behaviour simply because you dislike it and are concerned; especially when you are dealing with a population that by and large does not care what you think of their actions.

How does it destroy families? Are you then also suggesting that a husband/father who has an outside affair is criminal? Shouldn't the criminality also extend itself to the mistress who has sex with a family man for no money?

You are not legislating a crime you are legislating sex! What exactly are you against anyway, having anonymous sex for money? Or just anonymous sex? If a guy pays a womans rent every month for the privilege of banging her would you feel better about it? What if he just purchased the hungry lass dinner and a new dress? Fuck all that! I say put the money on the dresser and pull down your pants:D Let's call it what it is A TRADE! Not very romantic but hey!

The example I gave came from a study about sex trade workers in Bangkok. I will have to look for it and get back to you. The men were on leave from Cobra Gold, an annual military exercise in Asia.

And remember girls - it's bad if you peddle your ass for money. That makes you a whore.
It's good if you peddle your integrity for money - that makes you a wife.

Hahahaha...Xev that was brilliant!

Our bodies are not property of the state.

Brilliant, the perfect draft dodging scheme. Get high off whatever you want while your buddies die.


You say prostitution is dangerous? For whom? Most prostitutes carry and insist on condoms and what is more interesting is that they are MORE likely to practise safe sex than the teenage college student on spring break!

I believe condoms narrow the risk of std's to something like 5%. Just don't get upset when everyone has AIDs.


This is because of labour laws (among other factors)

I know some hispanics who know that they are working over 40 hours a week without overtime but do so anyways because of the other benifits.


Personally, I'd like them to go for me as far as I'd go for them - to defend my rights. You want a culture of oversocialized sheep, move to China - but even they are modernizing, so you might have problems there too.

Is it really that bad that you cannot make money off of sex? Your the one who accused me of treating woman like objects.


How does it destroy families? Are you then also suggesting that a husband/father who has an outside affair is criminal? Shouldn't the criminality also extend itself to the mistress who has sex with a family man for no money?

Yes, he would be a criminal but there are practical reasons to not have it enforce by law.


The example I gave came from a study about sex trade workers in Bangkok. I will have to look for it and get back to you. The men were on leave from Cobra Gold, an annual military exercise in Asia.

Thailand's an interesting place. A good example of why we have laws against prostitution.


And remember girls - it's bad if you peddle your ass for money. That makes you a whore. It's good if you peddle your integrity for money - that makes you a wife.

Integrity implies the abstance of peddling.

Good night, where to begin with your fractured logic. What exact draft would I be dodging? And beside that, the perfect draft dodge would be to pretend I was gay. After all, I'm sure that you of all people don't think they should be in the military.

The reason that we have laws against prostitution was that Christian hypocrite busybodies were much more in the drivers seat in the past than they are now. Nevada has legal brothels, and they are nothing like what goes on in Thailand.

Okinrus you fail to see my point, legislation will not and has not contained the activity, Cobra Gold was just an example of that.

You can check this site for the results of condom use against hiv:

http://www.neahin.org/programs/reproductive/condoms.htm

http://www.fhi.org/training/en/modules/BARRIER/s2pg11.htm


Anyway, women who independently CHOOSE the sex trade industry for whatever their reasons are not sex objects. Objects don't make choices.

Integrity means honesty and prostitutes are honest peddlers.

I understand that you think prostitution is wrong so I suggest you never procure one. You do not have the moral high ground to try and legally force your convictions on a community that cares for your lifestyle as much as you do for theirs.

What I would like to see is the change where women (usually underaged and nonconsenting) in undeveloped countries are not forced into the situation by tradition, dire economic need or sold into the situation involuntarily. But when it comes to women who choose this lifestyle voluntairly for whatever their reasons then I say it is no ones business if they do.

Lucy can you explain in more detail your moral system. From what I read I conclude that it's based upon two principles

1. Do not harm anyone else
2. Some set of personal morals that only apply to you.


When I look at it this scheme in more detail, the only way that we can know if something is harmful to an abstract someone is to apply it to ourselves. We know that stealing harmful, for example, because we've had stuft stolen from us and we know that lying is harmful because we've been lied to. This can all be applied abstractly by imagining someone stealing from us or lying to us. So the specialization into what is harmful implies that principle 1 is already based on your own personal morals and the set of personal morals is what we consider harmful to ourselves. However if you saw someone commiting harm to themselves, you'd have to stop them with some means so as not to contradict principle 1, but finding out what is harmful to themselves can only be based upon your own personal set of morals. My conclusion is that you have faith in the faithlessness of your own morals, which does not make too much sense. It's better to be truely honest. If you think that prostitution is bad for you, then suggest a way to stop prostitution. After all, Jail time is not the only solution.

Also prostitution has been in the chrisitan tradition sort of. Thomas Aquianas thought that prostitution should be allowed to relieve sexual tension that might lead to more serious crimes such as rape. It was really the Calvin's followers who cracked down on prostitution.

Okinrus I don't consider prostitution immoral. Like Swedishfish I have known women who relied on the trade for a variety of reasons. It is not anything I would deem wrong for myself if that is what I chose. Unlike yourself I do not link prostitution with chemical addictions or deem prostitution as fundamentally wrong.

You wrote: Also prostitution has been in the chrisitan tradition sort of. Thomas Aquianas thought that prostitution should be allowed to relieve sexual tension that might lead to more serious crimes such as rape. It was really the Calvin's followers who cracked down on prostitution.

And? What are you for it now because Thomas has given you permission?

And? What are you for it now because Thomas has given you permission?

No, of course Thomas felt that prostitution was sinful.


Okinrus I don't consider prostitution immoral. Like Swedishfish I have known women who relied on the trade for a variety of reasons. It is not anything I would deem wrong for myself if that is what I chose. Unlike yourself I do not link prostitution with chemical addictions or deem prostitution as fundamentally wrong.

Then what's the problem with people who do consider it immoral passing laws restricting it? We have laws against stealing because the majority of the population thinks that it is immoral. Now if a married man goes to a prostitute is that immoral? If so, does the prostitute have a moral requisite of making sure that her customer is not married?

No Okinrus I do not find a married individual having an outside affair 'immoral'. I do not believe marriage to be a sanctified institution. People will remain faithful for only as long as they desire; forced monogamy is bullshit as far as I am concerned.

The problem with restricting prostitution is that it continues anyway but without any protection. To decriminalize the activity would mean utilizing police enforcement in a direction where they can do the most good instead of penalizing two people for having concensual sex. It also offers the women legal rights within their profession by eliminating the 'pimp', perhaps even containing the activity to certain red light districts, which means prostitution is safer.

When you steal from someone you deprive them of something and this is why it is criminal. Prostitution does not deprive anyone of anything. The man receives the service he payed for, the woman receives money for the service. So where is the criminality in this? Who is being deprived?

okinrus:
Brilliant, the perfect draft dodging scheme. Get high off whatever you want while your buddies die.

What the hell do you get this from?

I believe condoms narrow the risk of std's to something like 5%. Just don't get upset when everyone has AIDs.

How will everyone have aids, you hysterical fuck?

I know some hispanics who know that they are working over 40 hours a week without overtime but do so anyways because of the other benifits.

Uh, this has relevence somehow?

Is it really that bad that you cannot make money off of sex?

No. It's bad that misogynistic little slave moralists like you are forcing your sick ideology on decent people.

Your the one who accused me of treating woman like objects.

You are. Reducing a human to her sexuality is as vile as you are, okinrus.

Integrity implies the abstance of peddling.

No. It is possible to be honourable and to trade - there are honourable businesspeople.

It is not possible to be honourable if you trade your body and your emotions in order to have a pretty white dress and financial security.
You are one sick, hateful little boy. I daresay you'd not be so obsessed with the way some women arrange their sexlives if you had a sex life of your own.

Lucysnow:
People will remain faithful for only as long as they desire; forced monogamy is bullshit as far as I am concerned.

I disagree. Nobody forces men or women to marry. If you choose to be in a monogamous relationship and promise not to fuck anyone else, you are bound by your promise so long as you are bound by your relationship.

We shouldn't coddle those stupid enough to enter relationships that they can't handle.

To Xev who wrote:I disagree. Nobody forces men or women to marry. If you choose to be in a monogamous relationship and promise not to fuck anyone else, you are bound by your promise so long as you are bound by your relationship.

We shouldn't coddle those stupid enough to enter relationships that they can't handle.

I see your point. I just don't understand how anyone can expect anyone to promise tht they will remain faithful forever and a day. I am sure everyone believes their word at the time given...most are not honest enough to admit to their partners that their love has waned or are sexually peaked by another.

I also don't understand why anyone need promise monogamy at all. When two people are emotionally and physically invested in one another they never feel the need to look elsewhere; infidelity is not an issue and need not be discussed when all desires are met and contained within a love bond.

I take marriage so seriously that I have avoided it precisely because I did not think I could make such a promise of life-time fidelity. I am not saying it is not possible I just have yet to meet someone who inspires such an oath.

I also don't understand why anyone need promise monogamy at all. When two people are emotionally and physically invested in one another they never feel the need to look elsewhere; infidelity is not an issue and need not be discussed when all desires are met and contained within a love bond.

We could extend adultry to cheating in premarital relationships. The prostitute does not care if it's a married man or a man with a significant other --- it doesn't matter as long as the bills are green. And there is no way that the prostitute could obtain such information anyways. So while the prostitute is not directly reponsible for the crime, she is giving the man a loaded gun.

Xev I thought nothing was truely good or evil? Does this extend to me as well? If it does, then there is a possibility that you are vile and evil and you are merely seeing a reflection.

Yes Okinrus but a married man can just as easily go pick up a woman at a bar and not tell her he is married and get laid anyway. There is no 'loaded gun'! It makes no difference to the prostitute if her customer is married or not because it is none of her business.

PS: I think Xev is probably the least 'vile' or 'evil' of any of us here.

okinrus:

So while the prostitute is not directly reponsible for the crime, she is giving the man a loaded gun.

He has no free will? He is incapable of not deciding to purchase sex?
In any case, if it was such a great relationship he wouldn't be off paying to get laid, eh?

Xev I thought nothing was truely good or evil?

Huh?

If it does, then there is a possibility that you are vile and evil and you are merely seeing a reflection.

Do I despise an entire gender just because I am a stupid little Catholic and think that women are dirty? No.
Do I try to force other people's personal lives to conform to my standards? No.
Do I make war upon the principles my country was founded on? No.
Do I lack any sense of honour or decency? No.
Am I a fascist? No.
Am I servile? No.

So no, I'm not seeing a reflection okinrus.

Lucysnow:
I see your point. I just don't understand how anyone can expect anyone to promise tht they will remain faithful forever and a day. I am sure everyone believes their word at the time given...most are not honest enough to admit to their partners that their love has waned or are sexually peaked by another.

Yup. And most give their word too freely. I more prefer the Nietzschen ideal of someone whose "word is gold and who always does more than he promises".

To be that person means never giving your word unless you are sure that you agree with it.

I also don't understand why anyone need promise monogamy at all. When two people are emotionally and physically invested in one another they never feel the need to look elsewhere; infidelity is not an issue and need not be discussed when all desires are met and contained within a love bond.

This is true. Which goes back to what I said at the top of my post: if a man is paying for sex, the relationship is either dysfunctional or open (i.e he likes something his wife doesn't, she doesn't want to partake but she doesn't want her man to be unsatisfied)

"You controlling, egomaniacal fool. You have a right to do whatever you wish so long as you do not trespass unto another person's rights."

But where does that come from? To borrow from someone else, dont I have the right to do what I want, and its up to everyone else to stop me?

It comes from being a most sensible principle of government.

HHmm, but why have gvt?
Or rather, I thought id throw in the kind of idea that Unregistered and even Congrats seem to be throwing about.

He has no free will? He is incapable of not deciding to purchase sex? In any case, if it was such a great relationship he wouldn't be off paying to get laid, eh?

Many men who commit adultry regret it.


Do I despise an entire gender just because I am a stupid little Catholic and think that women are dirty? No.

What does gender have anything to do with this? There are boy prostitutes you know.


Do I try to force other people's personal lives to conform to my standards? No.

Of course you do have standards such as not killing, stealing and maiming others. Oh and the one standard you do love to force on others is your "standard" of having no standards.


Do I make war upon the principles my country was founded on? No.

Do I?


Do I lack any sense of honour or decency? No.

Honor and decency are subjective type of things. What is honorable to Hitler is barabaric to most of us.


Am I a fascist? No.

And I'm not a fasciest either?


Am I servile? No.

Your are not servile but arrogant.


Yes Okinrus but a married man can just as easily go pick up a woman at a bar and not tell her he is married and get laid anyway.

Maybe but woman at bars are looking for long term relationships correct?


There is no 'loaded gun'! It makes no difference to the prostitute if her customer is married or not because it is none of her business.

Of course it is her business. If having sex with the guy is breaking up his family then she is partly responsible. Say if you see a guy about to commit suicide. You don't go up to him and say "hi now take this gun and shoot yourself". This would contradict your 1st principle and commiting suicide is generally considered personal harm. I'm wondering do you all support suicide hotlines or do you think people should have the choice to blow up their brains.

Maybe but woman at bars are looking for long term relationships correct?
You're a riot ork.
Many men who commit adultry regret it.
Only after they get caught:)

You have a very unrefreshing lack of real world knowledge.

okinrus:
Of course you do have standards such as not killing, stealing and maiming others. Oh and the one standard you do love to force on others is your "standard" of having no standards.

How do I have no standards? Simply because I am not YHWH's subserviant little slave does not make me without standards.

Maybe but woman at bars are looking for long term relationships correct?

*Blinks*
*Reads again*
*Wipes her eyes*
*Reads again*
*Collapses in giggles*

Please tell me you're being sarcastic.

Of course it is her business. If having sex with the guy is breaking up his family then she is partly responsible.

No, this is absolute bullshit. I can't stand this new liberal trend of taking away personal responsibility.

If you eat nothing but quarter pounders and fries, you will become obese. This is soley your fault, and suing Burger King (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/fatsuit020725.html) is unfounded.

Likewise, if you choose to engage in sex with someone, you, and only you are responsible for whatever adverse consequences there are.

Excuse me, I'm off to look for my soulmate by getting shitfaced and picking up the guy with the best pickup line. Maybe we'll have a long-term relationship and he'll actually mumble an "I'll call you!" instead of just sneaking out after sex.

Okinrus you are really naive and sheltered if you think women in bars are looking for a long-term relationship. Most women who leave with a guy they meet in a bar are looking for a good lay.

You say that many men regret adultry? So? It is irrelevant to this topic.


To say that a prostitute should care whether a man is married or not is about the same as a bartender caring if his customer is an alcoholic. In both instances customers don't offer that information and it would be presumptuous for the server to ask.

Suicide Okinrus? No one is commiting suicide in the midst of a blow job!

How old are you anyway? You sound shy of fourteen.

Originally posted by Lucysnow
No one is commiting suicide in the midst of a blow job! I've had some pretty bad ones.... I've almost wished I could 'fake it' just to get out of there.

No, this is absolute bullshit. I can't stand this new liberal trend of taking away personal responsibility.

I'm not taking away responsibility, I'm holding the prostitute also responsible while you are taking away her responsibility.


To say that a prostitute should care whether a man is married or not is about the same as a bartender caring if his customer is an alcoholic. In both instances customers don't offer that information and it would be presumptuous for the server to ask.

No, if someone is drunk, the bartender is supposed to stop the drunk from driving his car.


How old are you anyway? You sound shy of fourteen.

My age is up on the personal info.


You have a very unrefreshing lack of real world knowledge.

So basically your saying that these woman go to the club only to have sex. There not even attempting to have long term relationships but just short term. In dating, I thought that you call a failed relationship short term but I don't really know.

okinrus:
I'm not taking away responsibility, I'm holding the prostitute also responsible while you are taking away her responsibility.

You, like the laws, take away her client's responsibility.

She is performing a service. She is responsible for that, just as the bartender is responsible for pouring drinks.

So basically your saying that these woman go to the club only to have sex.

And the minor power trip of selecting between various attractive men, yes.

There not even attempting to have long term relationships but just short term

Uh - YES! DUH!

Lucysnow:
No one is commiting suicide in the midst of a blow job!

Jesus, let's hope not.

How can you be college age, yet be so clueless?

Yes, believe it or not people have *gasp* sex *gasp*, just to *gasp* have sex *gasp*.

Spuriousmonkey should lend you his avatar with the monkey covering its eyes.

How can you be college age, yet be so clueless?

I'm socially inept with absolutely no money.


She is performing a service. She is responsible for that, just as the bartender is responsible for pouring drinks.

So she is an object?


Uh - YES! DUH!

Ok, I'll remember not to visit bars. The MTV's show a while back displayed three men who were seeking long term relationships abate sexual though.

"So she is an object?" NO Okinrus she is not an object she is a sex trade worker! She is flesh and blood and has made the choice to offer sex for money.

You wrote: No, if someone is drunk, the bartender is supposed to stop the drunk from driving his car.

And so? That is not the point. If someone comes into a bar and is not drunk the bartender does not ask him if he is an alcoholic.

If someone gives you a massage/manacure/haircut/whatever, does that make them an object? No. So why would a woman providing a different service (sex) suddenly become an object?

The reason you are probably 'socially enept' is because you have these views of everything which are just going to isolate you.

Uh, women are objects. At least I hope I'm an object.

*Disappears in a puff of smoke*

Guess not.

okinrus"
I'm socially inept with absolutely no money.

So? So am I.

Ok, I'll remember not to visit bars. The MTV's show a while back displayed three men who were seeking long term relationships abate sexual though.

I don't think men "seek" long term relationships. They're more roped into them.

Not always roped, sometimes we fall into them.

If someone gives you a massage/manacure/haircut/whatever, does that make them an object? No. So why would a woman providing a different service (sex) suddenly become an object?

She is selling herself, while the others are selling their skill.


And so? That is not the point. If someone comes into a bar and is not drunk the bartender does not ask him if he is an alcoholic.

Alcohol addiction is not as severe. Also it is relevatively easy for an alcoholic to find another store to buy stuft and by asking if someone is an alcoholic, it might worsen the condition by making his condition stigmatized. Alcoholics are typically in denial and the bartender would expect a negative answer anyways. On the other hand, if the prostitution's customer is married, then they both commit the crime of adultry.

LoL...really Okinrus you amaze me!

It is probably difficult for you to imagine but some prostitutes are skilled...that's why he's there and not in bed with his wife.

How is the prostitute guilty of adultry? Don't you realize that all those who at this moment are engaging in sex for money and their customers couldn't give a rats ass about your moral conclusions concerning their behaviour.

Alcohol is not as severe as what?

Really Okinrus you should consider a monastic life. I am not ridiculing you either, I just find it difficult to believe that you could survive in the real world.

Originally posted by okinrus
She is selling herself, while the others are selling their skill.
No. Why is she selling herself? It is as much a service as anything else.

Alcohol addiction is not as severe.
How many people a year does adultry kill per year? How many dads come back home after visiting a prostitute and beat their wife? In a system were it is legal, prositution actually decrease the amount of STDs.

Also it is relevatively easy for an alcoholic to find another store to buy stuft
And it is relatively easy to find somebody else to fuck. What's your point?

and by asking if someone is an alcoholic, it might worsen the condition by making his condition stigmatized.
What? Do you even know how to spell 'logic'?

On the other hand, if the prostitution's customer is married then they both commit the crime of adultry.
And this is a crime why?

okinrus:
She is selling herself, while the others are selling their skill.

No, she's selling her ability to fuck. That's a skill, cherry.

if the prostitution's customer is married, then they both commit the crime of adultry.

Adultery is not a crime in most states.

Persol:
The difference between falling into a pit and being netted, then.

Lol... agreed. But I swore I saw gold at the bottom of the pit... no idea where that went though;)

"Maybe but woman at bars are looking for long term relationships correct?"

.....what? HAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAA

'cause the marryin' type hangs about sleezy bars now apparently

Adultery is not a crime in most states.

There are other meanings of the word crime


No, she's selling her ability to fuck. That's a skill, cherry. .

Is that a skill they should teach at schools?


Really Okinrus you should consider a monastic life. I am not ridiculing you either, I just find it difficult to believe that you could survive in the real world.

We are in the world and no one will survive. I've considered it but I'd rather work in the computer field, get married etc. I'm open to possibilty but I'm not that good.


I don't think men "seek" long term relationships. They're more roped into them.

Well I seek a long term relationship and well I seem to be a man.


Lol... agreed. But I swore I saw gold at the bottom of the pit... no idea where that went though

When the stones turn to gold you will know.


The reason you are probably 'socially enept' is because you have these views of everything which are just going to isolate you.

No, that's not why. It's extremely painful to see men throw away a wife, a family and everything else for a prostitute. Is that what makes me isolated?

not all skills are taught in school. the cheap ones are only selling a warm body to have sex with. the good ones, who charge hundreds or thousands of dollars, certainly are skilled at sex. they are the type to know sex instruction books inside and out, performing every trick in the book if the customer pays for it. giving a proper blowjob is difficult and requires plenty of skill (excepting on adolescent boys). there are tricks involving the tongue, you have to know how to handle teeth, how much pressure from your lips, reading response and adjusting accordingly, how to take him in the mouth and when to do it, you must know the degrees of sensitivity of the different areas and which movements with the tongue and mouthparts to perform there, you have to take into account speed. building up to the point of orgasm in the most eloquent way possible is an art. it requires a background of knowledge and practice, no less a skill than cutting hair or massaging people.

not all people who go to prostitutes are married. if they are, they probably shouldn't be. if they must stay unhappily married for whatever reason, i doubt the wife would care much so long as she gets to go out and do the same thing.

there are some who do not believe in monogamy and a prostitute is obviously one such person. why should she care if he is having sex with or in relationships with other women or men?

Okinrus a most men don't discard their families or wives after seeing a prostitute. They don't go home and say to their wives "I have paid for sex and now i am leaving you and the kids".

Are married men your only concern? There are lots of single men who pay for sex also.

not all skills are taught in school. the cheap ones are only selling a warm body to have sex with. the good ones, who charge hundreds or thousands of dollars, certainly are skilled at sex.

Love is quite different and does not require or need thousands of dollars. Isn't sex supposed to be an expression of love?


not all people who go to prostitutes are married. if they are, they probably shouldn't be. if they must stay unhappily married for whatever reason, i doubt the wife would care much so long as she gets to go out and do the same thing.

Should the kids care?


there are some who do not believe in monogamy and a prostitute is obviously one such person. why should she care if he is having sex with or in relationships with other women or men?

She's commiting adultry.

Originally posted by okinrus
Love is quite different and does not require or need thousands of dollars. Isn't sex supposed to be an expression of love?
Sometimes it is, but othertimes sex is just sex. I'm willing to bet you have never actually had sex. Funny how people are willing to judge stuff they know nothing about, based soley on what their cult tells them.

Should the kids care?
No. Why should they?

She's commiting adultry.
Adultry is a christian concept in this country... and surprise, we aren't all christian. Which is funny when you consider that more 'cheaters' in this country are christian.

It is up to the couple what they are willing to except. Going out behind your wifes back is most certainly wrong. Some couples do it openly. Either way, it is non of your concern as it DOESN'T EFFECT YOU AT ALL. You have yet to give out good reasons why it shouldn't be legal.

Let alone you are completely ignoring that most men who go to prostitutes are probably single. The adultry point is moot. Do you think if the prostitute asked the guy would say "yeah, and 3 kids too"? No, especially he knew it meant she wouldn't serve him.

okinrus:
There are other meanings of the word crime

It does not matter - America is not a Christian country and thus should not define its laws based on Christian concepts.

Is that a skill they should teach at schools?

It does not matter whether it should be taught in schools - it is still a skill.

No, that's not why. It's extremely painful to see men throw away a wife, a family and everything else for a prostitute. Is that what makes me isolated?

Your seething hatred for the opposite sex might have something to do with it. Grow up Okinrus - it's the 21st century and women are no longer things that are "thrown away".

Not that I'm suprised to see a Christian exhibiting ressentiment. :rolleyes:

Isn't sex supposed to be an expression of love?

You know, I had regarded this discussion as futile and wasn't going to reply any longer. Then I realized why I can't - you just keep coming up with the funniest things!

No okinrus, sex is not an expression of love.

She's commiting adultry.

Who cares?

how can she be guilty of a concept, adultry, neither of them believe in?

god almighty, you are sheltered. it is sweet that you believe in true love and monogamy and sex for expression of love and all that supercute stuff. you'll make a nice flandersian husband/father some day. i too believe in monogamy. but you cannot seriously be so naive that you think everyone is like you and believes and behaves the same as you. some people just like having sex, no strings attached. no fuzzy emotions, no shame or guilt, no wedding rings. just having a good ol' romp in the sack for the pleasure of it and moving on. this is just the way it is.

Originally posted by Xev
okinrus:


It does not matter - America is not a Christian country and thus should not define its laws based on Christian concepts.





Your knowledge of History seems to be lacking. In 1892, the Supreme Court, in the case of Holy Trinity Church vs. United States, declared the United States to be a Christian nation.

http://members.aol.com/TestOath/HolyTrinity.htm

The so called male chauvinists would love to fuck a feminist for $250 per hour. feminity is available at their disposal for just $250 / hour that too from a defender bitch..:D

biblethump:
I'd be much obliged if you didn't attempt to demean the intelligence of your superiours:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm

Ta, now go back to sucking the flaccid member of your tyrant-god.