Some humans frighten themselves. They delude themselves that a particular thing, living or nonliving, is a threat to them. Then they use that fear as an excuse for removing that thing from the world. If they want it gone, it doesn't matter how innocuous the thing is. If the least bit of threat exists, it's an excuse to destroy.

I don't think that any human who cannot overcome this tendency, bad habit, mental illness, whatever you want to call it, should be allowed to make any rules for anyone else. I think that such a human is childish. He has the mentality of a two-year old child who sees other living beings as worth nothing unless they are of some service to him. He thinks he has the right to destroy what displeases him. He loves to persuade others to do his bidding by any means that he can obtain. He is unfit to lead, unfit to control, and should not be listened to by anyone.

Fear must be a chemical problem,. too many or too little juices pumped into the wrong part of the brain causing electrical overload!

Are you thinking of anyone in particular, Metakron?


http://www.toccionline.com/creations/photofun/tn_bushchimp.jpg

Chimp is just the lead pissant for now.

MetaKron, it sounds like you are really afraid of something.

You understand that clouds your thinking, don't you?

It clouds everyone's thinking.

Fear is bad when it makes you fear each experience that might end in disaster. If you think clearly about this, you might realize that every experience might end in disaster. How do you handle it? Do you try to control every variable? Do you let yourself be paralyzed? Or do you learn how to relate to the world as best you can, and think on your feet as best you can, and accept the risks?

The types who do not learn how to handle fear cause a lot of problems when they try to make the world "safe." So far that type has tried to "protect" us from homosexuals, blacks, most animals, diseases that either don't exist or are not significant causes of death, other religions, scientific knowledge, nations that wouldn't and couldn't assault us, and especially from our own human decency and compassion.

Fear explains A LOT of the destructiveness in human behavior. But it doesn't explain all of it. Sometimes evil is incredibly complex.
Fear-driven leaders- all they really scurred or are they just using fear to gain support?
Is Bush actually driven by fear? I think he just uses fear to gain power. I think he's just using his "spread of democracy" (aka: war on terrorism) to have a special section in the history books. So my question is, Is the root of Bush's drive for power one of fear?
Ah, like I said...evil is complex.

They "just" use fear. They make us afraid enough of each other to kill each other.

Maybe the complexities are just smokescreens.

And I think that evil is banal and fairly simple.

It clouds everyone's thinking.

Fear is bad when it makes you fear each experience that might end in disaster. If you think clearly about this, you might realize that every experience might end in disaster. How do you handle it? Do you try to control every variable? Do you let yourself be paralyzed? Or do you learn how to relate to the world as best you can, and think on your feet as best you can, and accept the risks?

The types who do not learn how to handle fear cause a lot of problems when they try to make the world "safe." So far that type has tried to "protect" us from homosexuals, blacks, most animals, diseases that either don't exist or are not significant causes of death, other religions, scientific knowledge, nations that wouldn't and couldn't assault us, and especially from our own human decency and compassion.


You are right.

So what is the alternative? How can people overcome their fear without giving up on their feeling of security?

By basing their confidence on trust in their own judgement and working to make that judgement as accurate as possible.

My judgement tells me that if there is a pitbull in the yard, he is no more likely to attack me than I am to be struck by a car on that particular day. Thus I can feel safe even though there is a minor threat near me. The chance that I will be injured severely is something like the chance that I will be struck by lightning. Maybe slightly greater, but my judgement tells me that it is not worth fretting about. The sane thing is to be polite and cautious, and friendly because almost every single time the dog will be friendly.

I do pretty much the same thing with humans, adjusted for social appropriateness, and you have an idea how much reason I have to feel endangered by humans. Good judgement gets me through the day, knowing what a one in a million chance of disaster means.

People who want me to fear things work to undermine my good judgement.

I will not get on an airliner.

By basing their confidence on trust in their own judgement and working to make that judgement as accurate as possible.

My judgement tells me that if there is a pitbull in the yard, he is no more likely to attack me than I am to be struck by a car on that particular day. Thus I can feel safe even though there is a minor threat near me. The chance that I will be injured severely is something like the chance that I will be struck by lightning. Maybe slightly greater, but my judgement tells me that it is not worth fretting about. The sane thing is to be polite and cautious, and friendly because almost every single time the dog will be friendly.

I do pretty much the same thing with humans, adjusted for social appropriateness, and you have an idea how much reason I have to feel endangered by humans. Good judgement gets me through the day, knowing what a one in a million chance of disaster means.

People who want me to fear things work to undermine my good judgement.

But you can decide that you do not want to be afraid; don't allow other people to undermine you.

I thought you did a pretty good job holding your own with me ;)

I take medication to help with my fear and anxiety.

Thank you, Sam. I do not do well with intimidation and fear tactics.

Superluminal, I am not in the least afraid of airplanes but you might have guessed that I do not get along with security all that well if they play games.

I am afraid to take medication. Been there, done that, got messed up.

Thank you, Sam. I do not do well with intimidation and fear tactics.


And I do not do well with confrontations.

So we're even.

My meds make me much less messed up. Just thinking about getting on an airline makes my palms start to sweat.

My fears were implanted by force and I can write a book about it. I was not born fearful. Some fears I failed to acquire, ever, thank goodness.

My fears just slowly grew. From whence thay came, I know not.

I stick with the abuse theory.

If the pace, stress, and demands of modern life count as abuse, then I agree.

They could.

There is also the general attitude of the people you live with, even if they do not abuse you. That does not count as abuse but it still causes harm.

They could.

There is also the general attitude of the people you live with, even if they do not abuse you. That does not count as abuse but it still causes harm.
Sure it does. In my book anyway.

My meds make me much less messed up. Just thinking about getting on an airline makes my palms start to sweat.

Do you have vertigo?

Sure it does. In my book anyway.

It has an effect like abuse, but I think of abuse as a deliberate act and this isn't it. Abuse by omission, anyway, but good intent that is not used to excuse deliberate acts of abuse has to count for something. We can't all be the best human on Earth. I reserve the label of abuser for those who either cause harm or allow harm to be caused by neglect, knowingly, or without a much better reason than "I just felt like it."

Do you have vertigo?
Not at all. I'm not afraid of heights. What I have is an anxiety disorder of some kind. Spontaneous panic attacks. Landed me in hospital a few times. Throwing a PVC on every third beat don't ya know. Big fun! The thought of getting in an airliner terrifies me. It wasn't always this way. I've flown many many times. I even took flight lessons. It appears to have developed with age.

It has an effect like abuse, but I think of abuse as a deliberate act and this isn't it. Abuse by omission, anyway, but good intent that is not used to excuse deliberate acts of abuse has to count for something. We can't all be the best human on Earth. I reserve the label of abuser for those who either cause harm or allow harm to be caused by neglect, knowingly, or without a much better reason than "I just felt like it."


It is possible to abuse someone without knowing it MK sometimes by imposing our version of rightness on other people

Do you also feel pressure in your head? I used to and when it stopped the panic attacks stopped.

Not at all. I'm not afraid of heights. What I have is an anxiety disorder of some kind. Spontaneous panic attacks. Landed me in hospital a few times. Throwing a PVC on every third beat don't ya know. Big fun! The thought of getting in an airliner terrifies me. It wasn't always this way. I've flown many many times. I even took flight lessons. It appears to have developed with age.

It must be very frustrating :(

It is possible to abuse someone without knowing it MK sometimes by imposing our version of rightness on other people

Yes, but it is still appropriate to give out the best information that you have and let the other person make up their own mind. My side had more and better information in that discussion, more than could rightly be overwhelmed by some articles that suggested a possibility but could not make a positive statement. I felt that it was worth the risk and that mongering fear was the wrong thing to do.

Now, if I tried to scare someone, that would be a way to impose myself. If I use correct information to reassure someone, how am I imposing?

Do you also feel pressure in your head? I used to and when it stopped the panic attacks stopped.
Not really. I've been on the meds for... six years now. I still get an occasional one, for which I also have a pill for immediate support, as it were. But no head pressure.

Yes, but it is still appropriate to give out the best information that you have and let the other person make up their own mind. My side had more and better information in that discussion, more than could rightly be overwhelmed by some articles that suggested a possibility but could not make a positive statement. I felt that it was worth the risk and that mongering fear was the wrong thing to do.

Now, if I tried to scare someone, that would be a way to impose myself. If I use correct information to reassure someone, how am I imposing?

I was not really talking about the discussion, I was thinking more in terms of authority figures in life like parents and teachers, who wilfully manipulate children in directions. e.g. many parents want to re-live their lives through their children, many teachers have little patience in dealing with children who have special needs, maybe because they think differently from other children.

It must be very frustrating :(
Not really. You get used to it, and the meds do a really good job. No airplanes though. Nope. Not gonna do it. Sorry. You can keep asking, but, no way. Sorry.

I was not really talking about the discussion, I was thinking more in terms of authority figures in life like parents and teachers, who wilfully manipulate children in directions. e.g. many parents want to re-live their lives through their children, many teachers have little patience in dealing with children who have special needs, maybe because they think differently from other children.

You're preaching to the choir about that one, and I thank you for doing so.

Yes, it's bad. To spell that out, it is bad because in order to impose the one doing so has to compromise the judgement of his victim. When right, it is still a bad place for the subordinate to be when his judgement always lags behind because he has to wait. When wrong, the subordinate can wind up with a crippled mind.

You're preaching to the choir about that one, and I thank you for doing so.

Yes, it's bad. To spell that out, it is bad because in order to impose the one doing so has to compromise the judgement of his victim. When right, it is still a bad place for the subordinate to be when his judgement always lags behind because he has to wait. When wrong, the subordinate can wind up with a crippled mind.

The worst part of course, is that they are doing it out of love, which makes it even more painful and unbearable, because rebelling against it feels wrong and makes the child feel guilty for wanting to be different.

Not really. You get used to it, and the meds do a really good job. No airplanes though. Nope. Not gonna do it. Sorry. You can keep asking, but, no way. Sorry.

So how do you travel?

So how do you travel?
Don't mostly. When I do, it's the RV. Mostly local camping trips. If gas was cheaper, we'd go more places. If I was still scuba diving, it'd be pretty hard to drive the RV to the caribbean. :D

There's always Amtrak

There's always Amtrak
True, true. Still expensive though...

The worst part of course, is that they are doing it out of love, which makes it even more painful and unbearable, because rebelling against it feels wrong and makes the child feel guilty for wanting to be different.

That's where it gets to be a headgame, and this causes a lot of damage. It is what I believe to be the root cause of schizophrenia and psychosis. A lot of that is because the victims simply can't believe that it is real. Worlds created in your mind to try to reconcile contradictory evidence aren't going to accurately represent the real world.

How do you pull yourself out of a mess like that?

A little bit at a time. I am a lot better off than I used to be.

Yes I think you have what it takes, so stick with it.

I got nothing better to do. :D

I haven't read this entire thread, but has anyone mentioned yet, that fear is essential for survival? If a deer did not fear then lion it would be eaten a whole lot quicker and surer than if it 'fears' and runs away and attempts to save itself. Fear is what ensures we cross the road safely, fear is what stops sensible people going overboard on pleasure inducing drugs that are ultimately harmful. Fear of the law and imprisonment is what stops most people committing crime and harming others. LONG LIVE FEAR

Meanwhile for people living with irrational fears, I have this to say, (I do it myself)

view fear as your enemy, summon up your natural survival 'fighter' instincts to fight your enemy 'fear'. Say to yourself, that you will NOT allow fear to rule your life, to detract form the joy of living your life. When you want to do something and your enemy 'fear' steps in foreboding you (irrational fears that is not sensible ones!) say 'NO' and try to do what you may do in real life when encountering a real life human foe, and fight it.

Easier said than done, but at least resolving to 'fight' fear instead of resolving to succumb to it is a good start. I myself have overcome many fears or at least for that moment.

I am afraid of heights, yet did a prachute jump (I'm still afraid of heights...but at least I know I can overcome my fear to do something I might like) I have been attacked many times and was agrophobic for about 6 months when I was 16, couldn't go out, or answer door or even the phone! So I forced myself into a public arena for employment and got a job where I had to speak with strangers daily. I am afraid of the dark, but can't sleep with ANY light, so that is a toughie! Usually I am too tired to care, hence my late nights (1am awake at 6am)

Irrational unproductive fear is harmful to your enjoyment of life, fight it with everything you have.

Good luck, oh and start taking EPA 1000-2000mg daily, it really helps (3 months min)

Irrational unproductive fear is harmful to your enjoyment of life, fight it with everything you have.

Amen.

Fear does not make it safe to cross the street. Knowing when it is safe and exploiting that moment is what makes it safe to cross the street. It doesn't even take fear to understand that one has to perform certain actions at the right time and in the right manner to accomplish a goal, like crossing the street safely.

Fear can actually drive a person into a bad situation that results in an accident.

Fear does not make it safe to cross the street. Knowing when it is safe and exploiting that moment is what makes it safe to cross the street. It doesn't even take fear to understand that one has to perform certain actions at the right time and in the right manner to accomplish a goal, like crossing the street safely.

Fear can actually drive a person into a bad situation that results in an accident.

Sorry Met but you are wrong, without fear you walk into the road without looking or listeneing. Fear is what you ensures you have an interest in 'requiring the safe moment' that you discuss the indiviudal as exploiting. Fear of death by moving vehicle is what ensures safe crossings, nothing less.

As a child I used to play 'death', we used to lie in the road and the bravest was the one who lay there for the shortest distance between them and the oncoming car. Our fear of death was not so strong then thus playing such games was not considered risky.

When I did my parachute jump I did not fear death as I thought the risks were low, however having had problems with my exit and chute not opening when it should I now would 'fear' a second jump as I know the risks are greater than I previously realised. Fear would stop me doing a second jump, now you may argue, sensible judgement makes me not jump, but that sensible decision originates from fear.

I'm not going for that. I am not wrong. It does not take fear to have a desire to cross the road without sustaining injury or incurring an unreasonable risk of injury. It just takes intelligence and a little common sense. Fear can make you run right into traffic. Fear doesn't think. If you think "I want to live and have a life" then you don't need fear for common situations that you have to handle every day.

What kind of life do you live that you have to be afraid to do the right thing? Do you not understand what is wrong with making decisions that are motivated by fear and anger? Don't you understand what is wrong with making decisions only when you are motivated by fear and/or anger? There are rational decision-making processes for any situation. I've been around people who seemed to think it was a miracle that I could put out a fire without being afraid and running around like "what am I going to do, what am I going to do"? It doesn't take a rocket scientist. Any person can learn how to put out a fire with what is available.

Someone who gets fear forced into him finds that the fear prevents him from making any good decisions until he gets rid of that fear, I have found from bitter experience.

I think you two are talking about two different kinds of fear. The ToR kind is an integral part of all living creatures. It's what stops one from sticking ones hand in fire or crossing the street in heavy traffic while twirling to and fro like a wood fairy. This kind of "preemptive" fear becomes second nature to us (once we've identified the source) and we no longer necessecarily classify it as "fear".

The MetaKron kind is the immediate "fight or flight" kind of fear that we are all familiar with. The kind of blind fear that just might make you run into traffic while being chased by an 800lb grizzly bear.

I think you two are talking about two different kinds of fear. The ToR kind is an integral part of all living creatures. It's what stops one from sticking ones hand in fire or crossing the street in heavy traffic while twirling to and fro like a wood fairy. This kind of "preemptive" fear becomes second nature to us (once we've identified the source) and we no longer necessecarily classify it as "fear".

The MetaKron kind is the immediate "fight or flight" kind of fear that we are all familiar with. The kind of blind fear that just might make you run into traffic while being chased by an 800lb grizzly bear.

Agreed, I am surprised Meta doesn't understand there is a difference. For him there is only one kind of fear and that is destructive. Interestingly having no fear is also equally destructive. I knew people with no fear of the law or imprisonment, thus they committed crime without 'fear' of capture. They did not fear reaction to their violence but embraced it and so were violent.

http://www.gazellebookservices.co.uk/ISBN/1594543348.htm

"Fear is a normal human emotional reaction - it is a built-in survival mechanism with which we are all equipped. Fear is a reaction to danger that involves both the mind and body. It serves a protective purpose -- signalling us of danger and preparing us to deal with it. The major components of fear are sensations, feelings, cognitions and behaviours. Fear can be individual or collective such as expressed in the national fear in the United States related to terrorism. The Washington DC sniper attacks caused widespread fear in a large geographic region far out of proportion to the real danger. Individuals must cope with fear on a daily basis in a myriad of forms: financial fears, health fears, relationship conflict fears, dental appointments, fears about the future etc. ......"

I think you two are talking about two different kinds of fear. The ToR kind is an integral part of all living creatures. It's what stops one from sticking ones hand in fire or crossing the street in heavy traffic while twirling to and fro like a wood fairy. This kind of "preemptive" fear becomes second nature to us (once we've identified the source) and we no longer necessecarily classify it as "fear".

The MetaKron kind is the immediate "fight or flight" kind of fear that we are all familiar with. The kind of blind fear that just might make you run into traffic while being chased by an 800lb grizzly bear.

For the fear of sticking your hand in a fire to happen, some kind of mental connection between doing that and the pain has to be there. Fear won't happen in a specific instance unless you know something to be afraid of. It is quite possible to know something to be afraid of that doesn't actually exist. To me if the thing to fear is a one in a million chance, it is very close to not existing.

Agreed, I am surprised Meta doesn't understand there is a difference. For him there is only one kind of fear and that is destructive. Interestingly having no fear is also equally destructive. I knew people with no fear of the law or imprisonment, thus they committed crime without 'fear' of capture. They did not fear reaction to their violence but embraced it and so were violent.

To me, the "fear" you seem to be talking about is rational thought process. It can also be called "legitimate concern" and "enlightened self interest."

I don't know that the people who you describe were fearless. Fear drove them to the acts of violence. Fear does not prevent violence. It inspires violence. If the perps can't do it openly they do it in ways that they can hide.

The amygdala (http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Amygdala) is fear itself. Some people with a damaged amygdala (http://www.exn.ca/Stories/1998/08/10/53.asp) are incapable of experiencing fear. The amygdala becomes active when we receive incoming sensory information that we perceive as a threat. It sends signals to the adrenal glands, which releases adrenaline, and glucocorticoids. (Stress hormones) People with phobias have an overactive amygdala.

...To me if the thing to fear is a one in a million chance, it is very close to not existing.
Agreed. This is why my fear of airliners is irrational.

The amygdala (http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Amygdala) is fear itself. Some people with a damaged amygdala (http://www.exn.ca/Stories/1998/08/10/53.asp) are incapable of experiencing fear. The amygdala becomes active when we receive incoming sensory information that we perceive as a threat. It sends signals to the adrenal glands, which releases adrenaline, and glucocorticoids. (Stress hormones) People with phobias have an overactive amygdala.
Yep. Don't they perform amygdalotomies on people for certain disorders?

Yep. Don't they perform amygdalotomies on people for certain disorders?

I’ve never heard of people having their amygdala surgically removed because of a disorder. Psychotherapy, virtual reality therapy, and drugs are the only treatments that I am aware of.

Agreed. This is why my fear of airliners is irrational.

The irrational has its place.

The amygdala (http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Amygdala) is fear itself. Some people with a damaged amygdala (http://www.exn.ca/Stories/1998/08/10/53.asp) are incapable of experiencing fear. The amygdala becomes active when we receive incoming sensory information that we perceive as a threat. It sends signals to the adrenal glands, which releases adrenaline, and glucocorticoids. (Stress hormones) People with phobias have an overactive amygdala.

It is also involved in pleasure. Pleasure is one thing that overcomes fear.

It is also involved in pleasure. Pleasure is one thing that overcomes fear.

That is true. Some people do enjoy the excitement of fear. (Bungee jumping, skydiving, roller coasters) However, it only becomes enjoyable when a large amount of dopamine is released into your bloodstream, followed by the release of serotonin when you have landed on the ground safely after jumping out of a plane. Some people do not have what some psychologists call type T personalities (T = thrill) because they are so overwhelmed by the release of adrenaline and glucocorticoids that they don’t experience any pleasure when they engage in risky behavior. The high that some people feel when they engage in risky behavior like skydiving is exactly what cocaine users experience.

To me, the "fear" you seem to be talking about is rational thought process. It can also be called "legitimate concern" and "enlightened self interest."

I don't know that the people who you describe were fearless. Fear drove them to the acts of violence. Fear does not prevent violence. It inspires violence. If the perps can't do it openly they do it in ways that they can hide.

You are still wrong metakron in so many ways. Fear proceeds logical thought. Logical thought is not a subconscious instruction to the physilogical body to 'react' it does not intiate releases of chemicals and physiological changes that enable us to 'react'.

Fear is a very primitive instinct all animals possess it.

Oh and renaming fear as logical concern does not make a spade not a spade anymore.

Get over your fear of the word fear and stop talking garbage.



And no fear did not drive them to acts of violence. You were not there so you would not know.

Agreed. This is why my fear of airliners is irrational.


Super, on a deep level you will also fear the following:

dying
pain
illness
injury
drowning
suffocating
starving
dehydrating
attack
loss of mental control
getting fat
getting thin
getting old

you may fear other less physical things such as

rejection
social embarrassment, humilation,
failure
poverty
financial losses
debt
punishment

the tax man


and every thing you do everyday is take steps to ensure these things do not happen, we all do to more or lesser degrees

I ensure everyday I do not go hungry and i eat a diet that ensures my heath and survival. meta will say this is logical intelligence blah blah, but it stems from the innate fear to avoid death and sufferring. It is just not so close to the surface that you 'feel' it.

Fear does not have to be felt in every instance, it is merely there lurking.

Feeling fear on the surface as in fight flight freeze is a heightened sense of self that calls the body to action, in this heightened state it is possible to feel elated, as we feel stronger, thus people do enjoy extreme sports that stimulate this fear response.

Then there are irrational fears. Interesting what q0101 etc had to say on that. I shall look at that some more.

The amygdala (http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Amygdala) is fear itself. Some people with a damaged amygdala (http://www.exn.ca/Stories/1998/08/10/53.asp) are incapable of experiencing fear. The amygdala becomes active when we receive incoming sensory information that we perceive as a threat. It sends signals to the adrenal glands, which releases adrenaline, and glucocorticoids. (Stress hormones) People with phobias have an overactive amygdala.

why has everyone missed this ay? Do the facts Not suit the malaise?

You are still wrong metakron in so many ways. Fear proceeds logical thought. Logical thought is not a subconscious instruction to the physilogical body to 'react' it does not intiate releases of chemicals and physiological changes that enable us to 'react'.

Fear is a very primitive instinct all animals possess it.

Oh and renaming fear as logical concern does not make a spade not a spade anymore.

Get over your fear of the word fear and stop talking garbage.



And no fear did not drive them to acts of violence. You were not there so you would not know.

Some kind of mental process has to occur before someone feels fear. Without recognition of a feared object or situation, there is no way to start a fear reaction.

Fear doesn't think. It doesn't know anything. It doesn't recognize anything.

That is true. Some people do enjoy the excitement of fear. (Bungee jumping, skydiving, roller coasters) However, it only becomes enjoyable when a large amount of dopamine is released into your bloodstream, followed by the release of serotonin when you have landed on the ground safely after jumping out of a plane. Some people do not have what some psychologists call type T personalities (T = thrill) because they are so overwhelmed by the release of adrenaline and glucocorticoids that they don’t experience any pleasure when they engage in risky behavior. The high that some people feel when they engage in risky behavior like skydiving is exactly what cocaine users experience.

The link you gave me said that the amygdala is also involved in the experience of pleasure. This isn't fear giving pleasure.

Some kind of mental process has to occur before someone feels fear. Without recognition of a feared object or situation, there is no way to start a fear reaction.

Fear doesn't think. It doesn't know anything. It doesn't recognize anything.


Again wrong, you don't know much about human physiology or psychology do you?

http://www.nel.edu/23_2/NEL230202R01_Grammer.htm

"Fear arises in stressful situations that are subjectively perceived as threatening. The intensity of the induced negative feeling corresponds to the subjective perception of threat in a situation. If the negative feeling becomes too intense, a seeking-reaction for stress-relieving mechanisms is initiated [3].
Fear can be induced by external, objective threats (e. g. predators), as well as by internal, subjective threats, called “free floating anxieties”[4]. Free floating anxieties can be generated by conscious or subconscious memories of threatening experiences in the past, or by the mere anticipation of a stressful situation.

The assumption that fear is a learned avoidance reaction to potentially dangerous situations is gradually being questioned. Recent studies show that fear may be a genetically determined function of the nervous system [4]. This hypothesis receives support from an evolutionary point of view. The ability to detect and anticipate dangerous situations seems to be crucial for survival, and individual learning might not be entirely quick enough to ensure survival chances. Moreover, even potentially dangerous stimuli might be rare and thus impossible to learn – leading an individual into danger when the stimulus is encountered for the first time.

Panksepp [4] "

See RED

This is obvious when considering animals

IMO,
Many animals do NOT have much capacity to learn anything and most of their brain is concerned with innate knowledge, this knowledge includes 'fear' which ensures they can identify predators from birth from that 'fear' response and take avoidance action. There is no voice saying 'hey this bird will eat you, run for cover when you see it' they naturally fear it and so run for cover. It is innate fear not intellectual: 'I saw you eat my mum' fear.

The link you gave me said that the amygdala is also involved in the experience of pleasure. This isn't fear giving pleasure.

http://www.news.utoronto.ca/bin6/050915-1631.asp

"By delivering shocks to mice, the researchers activated the NMDA receptors and traced a subunit of the molecule - a protein called NR2B - long believed to be associated with fear memory in the hippocampus and the amygdala, an almond-shaped structure in front of the hippocampus. To further test the protein's influence, researchers reduced the amount in mice and found they were less hesitant to avoid shocks. "We tested the animals using both spatial and auditory cues," Zhuo says. "In one experiment, the mice received small shocks when entering a chamber and they developed fear memory. In another experiment, we used sound tones to be associated with shocks. When NR2B was blocked, they no longer avoided the chamber or reacted to the tone."

This is different type of fear to which I refer but that which you refer, either way it is a brain thing not an intellectual one.

The link you gave me said that the amygdala is also involved in the experience of pleasure. This isn't fear giving pleasure.

Fear is just a word that we use to describe the chemical reactions that are going on in our body. An active amygdala can trigger the release of dopamine. Dopamine is one of the chemicals that can make a person feel good. It can be associated with excitement and anticipation. But it can also be associated with negative emotions like anxiety. It all depends on the areas of our brain that are active and which cells are exposed to the chemicals in our body.

Dopamine, Adrenaline, Glucocorticoids = Fear And Anxiety

Dopamine, (Serotonin in specific areas of the prefrontal cortex), Adrenaline, = Pleasure

Fear is a word for an emotion and emotions are real. Emotions do not think. Brain cells either think the way we think of as thinking, or they process information in a way that decides what systems to stimulate into action.

Fear is a word for an emotion and emotions are real. Emotions do not think. Brain cells either think the way we think of as thinking, or they process information in a way that decides what systems to stimulate into action.


wrong again, fear is a word for a response, that response is physiological, emotions do not manifest by themselves they arise from chemical processes in the brain.

All that you are doing now is trying to start a fight.

All that you are doing now is trying to start a fight.

an interesting interpretation of someone rejecting your 'statement of fact'.

I see no flames here?

wrong again, fear is a word for a response, that response is physiological, emotions do not manifest by themselves they arise from chemical processes in the brain.

perhaps you fear contradiction

wrong again, fear is a word for a response, that response is physiological, emotions do not manifest by themselves they arise from chemical processes in the brain.

So fear does not arise from a chemical process in the brain?

Of course fear is an emotion. Love and anger could also be described as reponses.

There are different kinds of fear that, at least I, experience differently, ie social fear and physical fear, is there any scientific distinction made between the two?

There are different kinds of fear that, at least I, experience differently, ie social fear and physical fear, is there any scientific distinction made between the two?


By definition, fear is a perception of danger, be it real or imaginary. Then we have grades from dislike to terror to phobia.

I believe social or physical fear may fall into one or either category.

an interesting interpretation of someone rejecting your 'statement of fact'.

I see no flames here?



perhaps you fear contradiction

Your objections aren't making sense and I think you're just being contrary. If I am wrong I apologize. This is really frustrating. The way you are doing it looks like you're trying to yank me around back and forth.

I am not wrong when I say that some mental process has to occur before fear can occur. Certainly fear can be triggered by something that causes certain hormones to be released, but this isn't the usual process. A sound, an image, a thought, a contact, something triggers the process that leads to fear, and it has to be mediated by some part of the brain or nervous system.

Your objections aren't making sense and I think you're just being contrary. If I am wrong I apologize. This is really frustrating. The way you are doing it looks like you're trying to yank me around back and forth.

I am not wrong when I say that some mental process has to occur before fear can occur. Certainly fear can be triggered by something that causes certain hormones to be released, but this isn't the usual process. A sound, an image, a thought, a contact, something triggers the process that leads to fear, and it has to be mediated by some part of the brain or nervous system.

sometimes I talk crap..it's not deliberate :)

I'm taking things too seriously.