I am speechless. If this was 1April, I would say it was a joke...but it is true.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Man Sentenced for 'Burning Bush' Comment


By Associated Press

December 6, 2002, 2:37 PM EST


SIOUX FALLS, S.D. -- A man who made a remark about a "burning Bush" during the president's March 2001 trip to Sioux Falls was sentenced Friday to 37 months in prison.

Richard Humphreys, of Portland, Ore., was convicted in September of threatening to kill or harm the president and said he plans to appeal. He has said the comment was a prophecy protected under his right to free speech.

Humphreys said he got into a barroom discussion in nearby Watertown with a truck driver. A bartender who overheard the conversation realized the president was to visit Sioux Falls the next day and told police Humphreys talked about a "burning Bush" and the possibility of someone pouring a flammable liquid on Bush and lighting it.

"I said God might speak to the world through a burning Bush," Humphreys testified during his trial. "I had said that before and I thought it was funny."

Copyright © 2002, The Associated Press

How is it fascism to be found guilty by a jury of your peers?

Peace.

HAHAHAHAHAAA!!! Land of the free!!! Freedom of speech!!! HAHAAHAHAHAHAA!!! :D

Ok, not fascism. But the idea that an American citizen could be brought up on charges in the first place, & then convicted/sentenced to 37 months in prison for such a non-threatening statement, is very very disturbing.


Originally posted by goofyfish
How is it fascism to be found guilty by a jury of your peers?

Peace.

In iraq they would just have him shot and left in the street. Actually they would kill everyone in the opposing political party and a few hundred others for good measure.

First off, let me just say that fascism works if you have a good, strong willed leader. The definition of such a person varies, but the basic idea is that one emperor/king/ruler keeps everyone else equal and free by force. Although like socialism it is extremely unlikely that we will ever see a succesful fascist civilization.

he crosses his fingers and hopes he's right

On this subject I'm amazed. I guess it was only a matter of time before we started seeing these stories, eh? Maybe we should think about shutting down the politics forum for member's safety...(this is said half-jokingly).

Excellent point clockwood. Is it wrong to attempt to protect a citizen? As clockwood said if this i was Iraq he would already be dead and etc. Besides he wasn't automatically proven guilty he was "proven" by his peers. And the fact he is allowed to appeal shows that prisoners still have freedom of speech even though they lose their rights when imprisoned.

Originally posted by Clockwood
In iraq they would just have him shot and left in the street. Actually they would kill everyone in the opposing political party and a few hundred others for good measure.
Really? Can you demonstrate this happening before, or is this silly flag-waving?

U.S. Code: Title 18 : Section 871 (http://usgovinfo.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/871.shtml) -- which reads, in part: Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits for conveyance in the mail or for a delivery from any post office or by any letter carrier any letter, paper, writing, print, missive, or document containing any threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to inflict bodily harm upon the President of the United States, the President-elect, the Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President of the United States, or the Vice President-elect, or knowingly and willfully otherwise makes any such threat against the President, President-elect, Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President, or Vice President-elect, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. My dislike for Mr. Bush aside, the Presidency of the United States is a dangerous job (http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/stories/02/07/whitehouse.incidents.02/index.html). In the case of Francisco Martin Duran, he told people he was going to kill President Clinton and nobody took him seriously. On October 29, 1994, in broad daylight and surrounded by tourists, Duran walked up to the fence and fired at least 29, 7.62 mm rifle rounds into the White House

Given that Mr. Humphries was sentenced to three years or so suggests that his comments were not made in the off-handed manner he describes. Without transcripts, it really is impossible for us to second-guess the decision by a judge or jury.

http://www.xecu.net/goofyfish/__public/leaf.gif Peace.

Originally posted by goofyfish

Given that Mr. Humphries was sentenced to three years or so suggests that his comments were not made in the off-handed manner he describes. [/B]


Maybe. But have you ever read about the Espionage Act of 1917 (President Wilson signed it in June of that year)? It was much worse than the Alien & Sedition Act signed by President Adams.

People were thrown in jail * simply for speaking out against the war *.

Charles Schenck was sentenced to six months n jail for printing & distributing leaflets in Philly. The leaflets denounced the war & the draft law. No threats of violence, etc. were in the leaflet. His appeal is the case that lead to USSC justice Holmes talking about "...falsely shouting fire in a theatre..." which was a completely bogus argument in this context.

Eugene Debs was arrested & jailed for saying this at a public rally:

"They tell us that we live in a great free republic; that our institutions are democratic; that we are a free & self-governing people. That is too much, even for a joke...
Wars throughout history have been waged for conquest & plunder...And that is war in a nutshell. The master class has always declared the wars; the subject class has always fought the battles..."

In all about 900 people went to prison under the Espionage Act.

The Espionage Act remains in effect today...

So it would not surprise me AT ALL if the "burning Bush guy" was guilty of nothing more than what was reported. BTW, CNN has reported this story this morning, with no more damning info than in the AP report.

I know the act that this guy was charged under was a different one than the Espionage Act. My point is that the government can smash all opposition & dissent, if they wanted too. That 12 jurors in South Dakota found him guilty does not make me feel any better.

Cheers

Originally posted by RMC
...the government can smash all opposition & dissent, if they wanted too.Well, it can certainly try, but that is a good topic for another thread if you like. I bit more information on this topic: Humphreys, who calls himself prophet Israel Humphreys, said a similar reference he made in an Internet Christian chat room was a joke and that neither can be viewed as a threat on the president...

Humphreys said his trip to South Dakota was the fourth of his "discipleship journeys" that began in 1993 and are meant to promote Christianity through controversial acts or unusual public statements...

Humphreys said he left Portland on March 1, 2001, and arrived in Watertown on March 8 where he got into a 1:20 a.m. barroom discussion with a truck driver about Christians who drink too much alcohol.

Realizing that President Bush was to visit Sioux Falls the next day, a bartender told police that Humphreys talked about a "burning Bush" and the possibility of someone pouring a flammable liquid on Bush and lighting it.

"I said God might speak to the world through a burning Bush... (Full text here (http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16929))Placed in context with facts that were not presented in the previously-referenced articles, his comments could certainly be seen as threatening. I believe the bartender was right to call authorities. That 12 jurors in South Dakota found him guilty does not make me feel any better.Humphreys represented himself in court with help from a public defender. As I said, I don't like our current President, but as I read additional facts I tend to feel more comfortable with the outcome.

http://www.xecu.net/goofyfish/__public/leaf.gif Peace.

Originally posted by goofyfish
Placed in context with facts that were not presented in the previously-referenced articles, his comments could certainly be seen as threatening. I believe the bartender was right to call authorities.




Sorry, I see nothing in such comments that would justify putting a nutcase (Christian or otherwise) in jail. I see as little freedom of speech as one might encounter in Cuba.

Remind me to never go out drinking with you ;-)

So we agree to disagree. :)
What do the rest of you think?

http://www.xecu.net/goofyfish/__public/leaf.gif Peace.

"It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those
three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom
of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them."

Take care :cool:

PS Like the addition, goofy :D

If you have the right leader??


What a comment. You need to study fascism.

Fascism only works for the elite.

What colour do you want your shirt to be? Black or Red?


http://www.michaelparenti.org/RationalFascism.html

http://www.anti-fascism.org/

I think I would prefer brown.

:cool:

Originally posted by Adam
Really? Can you demonstrate this happening before, or is this silly flag-waving? You're kidding, right? Check any year's Amnesty International report on Iraq. Or just read a newspaper.

In any case, this person was found to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt by twelve random individuals. It only takes one dissenter to prevent a guilty verdict, so presumably the government had a pretty strong case against him. Public jury trials are hardly a hallmark of fascism.

So explain Bush's new 'star chamber' court. Being held without bail or ability to call a lawyer?

Originally posted by jandt
So explain Bush's new 'star chamber' court. Being held without bail or ability to call a lawyer? I don't agree with all of Bush's policies - I'm just saying that there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with this particular instance.

neo-fascism or 'friendly fascism'.

By whatever name, it means eroding rights of the individual and the redistribution of EVERYTHING to the elite via the state.

Have a look at Hitler's financial backers.



WALL STREET AND THE RISE OF HITLER by Anthony C. Sutton
The U.S. bankers who financed Hitler (who, how, and when).


TRAGEDY AND HOPE, A HISTORY OF THE WORLD IN OUR TIMEby Dr. Carroll Quigley. This prominent Georgetown professor, establishment insider and author, who had access to their secret archives, reveals the global history of the international bankers' conspiracy and describes its origins and the use of central banks and secret and semi-secret societies to control governments worldwide. This scholarly work was soon suppressed as it revealed too much, and was only recently independently resurrected.

Originally posted by Nasor
You're kidding, right? Check any year's Amnesty International report on Iraq. Or just read a newspaper.

Show me the evidence.

Originally posted by Adam
Show me the evidence. http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/aireport/ar99/mde14.htm
http://www.web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/webmepcountries/IRAQ?OpenDocument
http://www.web.amnesty.org/web/ar2000web.nsf/countries/24fe8ccc9d037845802568f200552932?OpenDocument

Here are three year's worth of amnesty international reports. There are dozens of corroborating sources that can be easily found.

Thanks very much. You are the first in a long while to supply evidence of claims.

You might find these interesting:
http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/aireport/ar99/amr51.htm
http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/webamrcountries/UNITED+STATES+OF+AMERICA?OpenDocument
http://www.web.amnesty.org/web/ar2000web.nsf/countries/ff139dffe65c995f802568f20055297f?OpenDocument


Sixty-eight prisoners, including three juvenile offenders, were executed in 18 states. More than 3,500 people remained on death row. There were continuing reports of torture and ill-treatment by police and prison officers, and of shootings by police in disputed circumstances.



Police brutality, disputed shootings and ill-treatment in prisons and jails were reported. In May the UN Committee against Torture considered the initial report of the USA on implementation of the UN Convention against Torture. Eighty-five prisoners were executed in 14 states bringing to 683 the total number of people executed since 1976. Those executed included individuals who were children under 18 at the time of their crimes, and the mentally impaired. In December it was announced that George W. Bush had won the November presidential elections.



More prisoners were executed in 1999 than in any year since 1951. Police brutality, deaths in custody and ill-treatment in prisons and jails were reported. In October the US submitted its initial report to the UN Committee against Torture, five years after ratifying the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. The report acknowledged there were areas of concern but stated that torture did not occur except "in aberrational situations and never as a matter of policy". US authorities continued to violate international standards protecting children. AI's year-long worldwide campaign against human rights violations in the USA continued throughout most of the year. It called on the authorities at local, state and federal level to take action on a wide range of human rights concerns including the death penalty, police brutality, prison and jail conditions and the treatment of refugees, and called on the government to ratify international human rights treaties.

Of course there is police corruption and abuse in the United States, but you can't compare it to what the government does in Iraq. I didn't note any cases of people having their eyes gouged out or holed drilled in their hands while in police custody when I read through the Amnesty International report on the United States.

Originally posted by Adam
Really? Can you demonstrate this happening before, or is this silly flag-waving?

UUUh... yes. What box are you living in? They sporadically have heavily publicized execution of so called traitors without a trial or anything. Some of the most notable of these reach all the way to such places as CNN and the New York Times. He also has been proven to commit "ethnic cleansing" aka: GENOCIDE on the ethnic kurds in the north part of Iraq.

aussie human rights (http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/countries/australia?OpenView&Start=1&Count=30&Expandall)------->more (http://www.hrw.org/asia/australia.php)

canadian human rights (http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/countries/canada?OpenView&Start=1&Count=30&Expandall)--------> more (http://www.hrw.org/americas/canada.php)

english human rights (http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/countries/uk?OpenView&Start=1&Count=30&Expandall)-------> more (http://www.hrw.org/europe/uk.php)

Adam, the defender of exo-Oz morality and ethics, himself lives in the Land of the Great Orchestrated Aboriginal Expirations.

Some defensible high ground from which to pass judgement on the Lessers of the World.

:rolleyes:

Of course there is police corruption and abuse in the United States, but you can't compare it to what the government does in Iraq. I didn't note any cases of people having their eyes gouged out or holed drilled in their hands while in police custody when I read through the Amnesty International report on the United States.

Yet I note in the country I linked to, people are held in prison awaiting certain death for over a decade, even though it has been shown that 15% of them are actually innocent. People are killed, beaten, tortured. People are strapped to chairs and have huge voltages run through their bodies. Others are killed by chemical weapons regularly, by the state.


... There were continuing reports of torture and ill-treatment by police and prison officers, and of shootings by police in disputed circumstances...


... In May the UN Committee against Torture considered the initial report of the USA on implementation of the UN Convention against Torture...


... In October the US submitted its initial report to the UN Committee against Torture, five years after ratifying the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. The report acknowledged there were areas of concern but stated that torture did not occur except "in aberrational situations and never as a matter of policy"...

What box are you living in? They sporadically have heavily publicized execution of so called traitors without a trial or anything.

1) They also have criminal trials in Iraq.

2) The USA holds alleged criminals indefinitely without trial. Example: the Afghani fighters in Cuba.


He also has been proven to commit "ethnic cleansing" aka: GENOCIDE on the ethnic kurds in the north part of Iraq.

Ever heard of the "trail of tears"?

1)
If you had actually read the links you had posted, you would notice that nearly every article refers no to anyone in Australia, but to those outside Australia, outside Australia's responsibility, who simply state Australia as their destination. Those refugees from the Tampa, for example, were actually Indonesia's responsibility; yet somehow, simply because they said they were eventually headed for Australia, it became our fault. Odd.

2)
I'm well aware of what my government has done, as opposed to what people simply assume it has done. Amnesty International and such only see the things that get in the newspaper; I was lucky enough to see more. You are pointing out the elephant's toenail and not seeing the elephant at all. My country has done much worse than any of the things listed there.

3)
I have actually posted critically about the activities of my own country on several occasions in the past. But the topic here is not Australia. If I can look at my own country critically, perhaps you could do the same. Stop being so emotional and defensive, and simply look at things objectively.

Once again, the King of Kings has beat me to it. Oh, fudge.

Yet I note in the country I linked to, people are held in prison awaiting certain death for over a decade, even though it has been shown that 15% of them are actually innocent. People are killed, beaten, tortured. People are strapped to chairs and have huge voltages run through their bodies. Others are killed by chemical weapons regularly, by the state. Once again: you can't compare police abuses in Iraq to police abuses in the United States.

In the United States a person who is beaten while in police custody can sue the police. Stories about people being mistreated by police officers and then getting huge cash settlements form the police departments are common. Police departments have their own Internal Affairs divisions to investigate allegations of misconduct by police officers, and when it's found that an officer has acted inappropriately they are usually fired, fined, or sent to jail depending on how serious the misconduct was. People in the United States aren't afraid of police officers; I can say whatever I want to a policeman (short of talking about setting the president on fire) with no fear of being beaten, tortured, imprisoned, or disappeared for expressing my beliefs. Compare this with Iraq, where the police are a tool used to keep everyone so afraid of the government that no one dares to ask questions. They regularly torturer and kill people in hideous ways who are suspected of disloyalty, and no one dares to question it because they are afraid of being next.

You also can't compare the death penalty in the United States to the death penalty in Iraq. I don't like the death penalty for many reasons, but it's absurd to claim that state-sponsored killing in the two countries is equivalent. In the US they execute suspected murders with the intention of discouraging murder. In Iraq they execute political opponents for disagreeing with the government. In the US people are executed after a public trial in which they are found to be guilty by a jury of their peers. In Iraq people simply vanish and their relatives get a letter a few days later telling them to pick up the body at the police station.

"Stop being so emotional and defensive, and simply look at things objectively.

"objectively" has been done before. i am in defensive mode.
why you ask? cos its fun. what about facts? to hell with facts!
you idealistic punks are annoying as roaches, but hey, been there done that!

i leave you brother adam with a few parting words......

set the abo's free!!




:D

You have some odd ideas. Mr G is just an idiot, and has assumed from the beginning that I am on one side or another of this matter, when in fact I have not said at all which side I am on if any.

And if I want to keep slaves, I will!

Mr G is just an idiot,....
I know you mean that as an insult, but I take it as a badge of honor, ala Sun Tzu.

How well-read are you?

For anyone interested in 'Sun Tzu on the Art of War':

http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html

Enjoy :cool:

Chagur:

Have you no faith in the depth of his personal library?

Kind of figured that if he didn't have it in his personal,
he'd find it easy enough on the net.

I was thinking more of the juvies who seem somewhat
limited when it comes to searching for information. :D