Evolutionary Theory responsible for Nazism

Raithere

08-18-05, 04:17 PM

Unfortunately, your graceful and beloved theory of Evolution has a dark side when combined with astheistic and neopaganism/humanism:Why don't we see what Hitler had to say on the issue:

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." - Adolf Hitler

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922

It will at any rate be my supreme task to see to it that in the newly awakened NSDAP, the adherents of both Confessions can live peacefully together side by side in order that they may take their stand in the common fight against the power which is the mortal foe of any true Christianity. -Adolf Hitler

Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church. - Adolf Hitler

I am absolutely convinced of the great power and the deep significance of the Christian religion, and consequently will not permit any other founders of religion (Religionsstifter). Therefore I have turned against Ludendoriff and separated myself from him; therefore I reject Rosenberg's book. That book is written by a Protestant. It is not a party book. It is not written by him as a member of the party. The Protestants can settle matters with him. - Adolf Hitler

And from his fellow Nazi's:

"Although he himself [Hitler] was a Catholic, he wished the Protestant Church to have a stronger position in Germany, since Germany was two-thirds Protestant." -Hermann Göring

"With the Catholic Church the Führer ordered a concordat to be concluded by Herr Von Papen. Shortly before that agreement was concluded by Herr Von Papen I visited the Pope myself. I had numerous connections with the higher Catholic clergy because of my Catholic mother, and thus-- I am myself a Protestant-- I had a view of both camps." - Hermann Göring

"We believe that the Fuhrer is fulfilling a divine mission to German destiny! This belief is beyond challenge. " - Rudolf Hess

"I swear before God this holy oath, that I shall give absolute confidence to the Fuehrer of the German Reich and people." -Heinrich Himmler, reminding his hearers about the oath taken by all SS men as well as by the military forces (Hitler's Elite, Shocking Profiles of the Reich's Most Notorious Henchmen," Berkley Books, 1990)

We have a feeling that Germany has been transformed into a great house of God, including all classes, professions and creeds, where the Fuhrer as our mediator stood before the throne of the Almighty. - Joseph Goebbels, in a broadcast, 19 April 1936

We believe on this earth in Adolf Hitler alone! We believe in National Socialism as the creed which is the sole source of grace! We believe that Almighty God has sent us Adolf Hitler so that he may rid Germany of the hypocrites and Pharisees. - Robert Ley

Germans must fight Jews, that organized body of world criminals against whom Christ, the greatest anti-Semite of all time, had fought. -Julius Streicher

It is quite obvious that Hitler and the rest of the Nazi scum considered themselves to be Christian and doing God's own work. Of course, Hitler's Anti-Semitism is likewise derived from a Christian source. Rather than Darwin, his ideas came from Martin Luther:

"I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that these miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen." - Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

"He did not call them Abraham's children, but a "brood of vipers" [Matt. 3:7]. Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, "He has a demon' [Matt 11:18]. Our Lord also calls them a "brood of vipers"; furthermore in John 8 [:39,44] he states: "If you were Abraham's children ye would do what Abraham did.... You are of your father the devil. It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham's but the devil's children, nor can they bear to hear this today." - Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

"Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people." -Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

"Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self-glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them." - Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

"...but then eject them forever from this country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!" - Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

"Over and above that we let them get rich on our sweat and blood, while we remain poor and they such the marrow from our bones." - Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

I think that's enough evidence for now. Case Closed.

~Raithere

SnakeLord

08-18-05, 05:05 PM

Lol.. royally fucking owned.

Hapsburg

08-18-05, 05:36 PM

Ah, so he was Catholic...

superluminal

08-18-05, 06:56 PM

So, lawdog, why are you so blinded to the truth? Hitler was a good christian. Just like you, you complete loon. That's some nice company you keep there bub.

lawdog:

The Church provides in its dogma provisions for a just war.

Fuck the church and jesus with a big cross shaped dildo. Oh I forgot. Priests already do that to alter boys.

"Our father, who art in my ass, phallic be thy shame..."

You stupid, blind asshole.

Lawdog

08-18-05, 07:08 PM

Hitler's fake christianity hide a real obssession with the occult and neopagan doctrines of an Aryan Christ, the ubermensch, everyone knows that. Dont try and use quotaions of a madman to try and twist historic facts.

The Devil can quoth scripture for his purpose.

Now, since you have been unable to refute the position of the article that was presented, I will assume that you agree.

superluminal

08-18-05, 07:20 PM

Hitler's fake christianity hide a real obssession with the occult and neopagan doctrines of an Aryan Christ, the ubermensch, everyone knows that.
So, Darwins off the hook then?

§outh§tar

08-18-05, 07:40 PM

The ubermensch is "an Aryan Christ"?

You are even more - - than I presumed Lawbitch.

It's like saying Goldilocks and the Three Bears is an anti-semitic science fiction story set in a different dimension. Utter bollocks.

Why don't you actually bring some textual evidence?

Raithere

08-18-05, 08:14 PM

Hitler's fake christianity hide a real obssession with the occult and neopagan doctrines of an Aryan Christ, the ubermensch, everyone knows that. Dont try and use quotaions of a madman to try and twist historic facts.Two points here. One, as superluminal was talking about; occult and neopagen doctrines have nothing to do with Atheism or Darwinism. Two, regardless of Hitler's personal beliefs. Even if he was lying, he was speaking to the German people, convincing Christians that his opinions were correct. And the followed him as Christians.

Further quotes from Hitler:

"National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of today, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life . . . These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles!"

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

But let's look at the article:

Hitler believed that the human gene pool could be improved by using selective breeding similar to how farmers breed superior cattle strains.This is not one of Darwin's ideas, this is simply animal husbandry, a practice that has been understood and used for thousands of years. Long before Darwin was born.

Hitler’s government relied heavily upon Darwinism, especially the elaborations by Spencer and Haeckel.The reference is, of course, to Social Darwinism. Notably, Spencer was a philosopher/sociologist and Haeckel was a Lamarckian and a follower of Spencer. Their related ideas are a divergence from the science of biology and not a part of biological Evolutionary theory. Once again, Darwin cannot be held accountable.

Darwin’s notion that evolutionary progress occurs mainly as a result of the elimination of the weak in the struggle for survivalAnd once again the author shows his ignorance. Evolution is often misunderstood as the elimination of the weak. Survival, in an Evolutionary sense, is strictly about procreation. It doesn't matter how strong or weak you are. It matters how prolific you are. Additionally, deliberately killing off the "weak" would be artifical selection, also known as animal husbandry and we're back again to non-Darwinian concepts.

Although it is no easy task to assess the conflicting motives of Hitler and his supporters, Darwinism-inspired eugenics clearly played a critical role.As an interesting aside, the U.S. and other nations were also misapplying Evolutionary concepts and had their own Eugenics programs in place prior to WWII.

Expunging of the Judeo-Christian doctrine of the divine origin of humans from mainline German (liberal) theology and its schools, and replacing it with Darwinism, openly contributed to the acceptance of Social Darwinism that culminated in the tragedy of the holocaust.This, of course, was never done.

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without religious foundation is built on air; consequently all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . ." - Hitler

Furthermore, the primary reason that Nazism reached to the extent of the holocaust was the widespread acceptance of Social Darwinism by the scientific and academic community.And here we finally get some truth. None of this has anything to do with Science, Evolution, or Atheism. It's about Social Darwinism (as I stated above) which has nothing to do with any of the other topics.

I note you seem to have nothing to say about Martin Luther's opinions.

If we can lay responsibility for the Holocaust at Darwin's feet because people misinterpreted and misapplied his ideas we must also lay responsibility for the Holocaust at the feet of Jesus Christ for people doing the same thing to his ideas. Oh and don't forget the Crusades, the Witch Trials, the Inquisition, the slaughters in Rwanda and Bosnia. If these are the fruits of Jesus, of God, then he has a fair amount more to answer for than poor old Charles.

~Raithere

okinrus

08-18-05, 09:00 PM

It is quite obvious that Hitler and the rest of the Nazi scum considered themselves to be Christian and doing God's own work. Of course, Hitler's Anti-Semitism is likewise derived from a Christian source. Rather than Darwin, his ideas came from Martin Luther:

I don't know for a fact whether Hitler was exposed to Martin Luther's writings on Jews. But what we do know, however, is his reading of anti-semetic german nationalist works beforehand. His purity of blood line obsession is cause by social dawinism and is absent in Martin Luther's writings.

It is quite obvious that Hitler and the rest of the Nazi scum considered themselves to be Christian and doing God's own work. Of course, Hitler's Anti-Semitism is likewise derived from a Christian source. Rather than Darwin, his ideas came from Martin Luther:

In his table talk writings Hitler denounces Christianity. So, more likely, both people and religion were tools to Hitler. He'd lie about his faith if he'd think it would give more power.

Raithere

08-18-05, 10:44 PM

I don't know for a fact whether Hitler was exposed to Martin Luther's writings on Jews. But what we do know, however, is his reading of anti-semetic german nationalist works beforehand. His purity of blood line obsession is cause by social dawinism and is absent in Martin Luther's writings. Hitler mentions Luther in Table Talk and in Mein Kampf so it seems likely that he would have more than a superficial exposure to Luther's writing. On the other hand, to the best of my knowledge, Hitler never once mentioned Darwin. But neither Luther nor Hitler invented anti-semitism, they didn't even introduce it to Europe. It was prevalent throughout Europe through the dark-ages and during the inquisition. Martin Luther's writings are simply an example of its prevalence within Christianity. And certainly a much more direct link to his "Final Solution" than a perversion of Darwin's theory.

In his table talk writings Hitler denounces Christianity. So, more likely, both people and religion were tools to Hitler. He'd lie about his faith if he'd think it would give more power.As I said to Lawdog, Hitler's personal opinion really isn't the point. The quotations I referenced were directed towards Christians. From what I've read, it seems that Hitler believed in Christianity but also believed it should serve the cause of his Aryan nation. In any case, it certainly wasn't an Atheistic or Darwinist agenda that he had as Lawdog and the brain-dead author of the article he referenced are asserting.

~Raithere

Lawdog

08-19-05, 08:02 AM

Hitler mentions Luther in Table Talk and in Mein Kampf so it seems likely that he would have more than a superficial exposure to Luther's writing. On the other hand, to the best of my knowledge, Hitler never once mentioned Darwin. But neither Luther nor Hitler invented anti-semitism, they didn't even introduce it to Europe. It was prevalent throughout Europe through the dark-ages and during the inquisition. Martin Luther's writings are simply an example of its prevalence within Christianity. And certainly a much more direct link to his "Final Solution" than a perversion of Darwin's theory.
Luther does not represent genuine Christian doctrine anyway. You need to explain to me why Hitler had many thousands of Catholics put in death camps along with the Jews. His only purpose for promoting ideas and saying he believed in Christianity and the German Church and such is so that he could get elected. It would not have otherwise been possible for the liar to have been elected. Mein Kampf was written long before he came into power, when perhaps he may have even had some lingering interest in Religion as a social tool. It was not long after his rise to power that the Bible was outlawed in Germany, pagan festivals were observed, idols erected, the Aryan Christ joined the pantheon of ancient Germanic gods, jews and christians with any integrity were persecuted. A brief reading of Hitlers favorite philosopher Neiztche, like his work "the AntiChrist" will help you understand.

You seem to want to separate Social Darwinism from Evolution. You are walking a very sticky wicket.

Furthermore, you should be very careful about talking about Christ in that way, like blaming him for stuff. Remember my friend, Death will come for you someday, who will you turn to then?

tecoyah

08-19-05, 08:17 AM

After reading this entire thread I have a couple very simple questions for you...Lawdog

Do you consider the Church you belong to/follow to be the correct form of Chrisianity?

And...if so, Why?

If you decide to answer these....I will follow up with a few more, and in doing so prove beyond a doubt the failure of your Dogmatic belief structure.

Or....you could simply Quote your Bible again...as I am sure it is the correct one out of the seven or so translations I have read to date.

okinrus

08-19-05, 08:23 AM

Hitler mentions Luther in Table Talk and in Mein Kampf so it seems likely that he would have more than a superficial exposure to Luther's writing.

I don't see how before as a catholic and latter as a non-catholic he'd wind up reading Martin Luther's writings, much less his attack on Jews. But perhaps he could have.

Martin Luther's writings are simply an example of its prevalence within Christianity. And certainly a much more direct link to his "Final Solution" than a perversion of Darwin's theory.

Well, theologians such as Thomas Aquinas took a more moderate approach to the Jews. And back in the middle ages they didn't care so much about race. So-call racially pure pagans simply weren't allowed to practice their rituals, while the Jews were allowed, though restricted somewhat.

KennyJC

08-19-05, 08:35 AM

Lawdog

08-19-05, 01:47 PM

Anti-semitism which has been found among various christians has more to do with religion, not race, as you find in Hitlers writings. Furthermore, no serious christian is antisemetic, since Christ himself was a Jew.

tecoyah, whoever you are, I consider the Catholic form of Christianity the best and most genuine, with the most teneble doctrines, a systematic dogma that permits a variety of philosophic perspectives and spiritualities. Other forms of christianity I find more rigid and less tolerable of differing philosophies. I also would like to see other forms of christianity dwindle and be replaced by our faith, since it has the full embodiment of truth, unlike the others. It doesnt mean that I do not appreciate their contributions, only that I see them as flawed.

If you want to debate this thats ok, but I really dont. Here the issue is Evolution and christianity, Hitler, and history.

Lawdog

08-19-05, 01:50 PM

I believe that Lawdog is a troll who is actually an athiest under the guise of a fundamentalist christian/creatonist in order to prove a point how dumb they can actually be.

At least I hope that's the case as surely nobody can be this dumb...

Such posts dont really help your cause. They do not effect me or stop me. Everyone knows that the one who is accusing another of stupidity without offering counterpoints is really the one guilty of the flaw he claims he sees in another. Is this not common knowledge?

Hapsburg

08-19-05, 01:52 PM

Lawdog, if you actually believe the bullshit you are typing, you are even stupider than hitler.

Lawdog

08-19-05, 01:55 PM

Of course I believe it. Nor was Hitler stupid. Morality and Genius are not equivalencies, you do realize, dont you?

By the way, you have read the entire article.....or not?

Hapsburg

08-19-05, 01:59 PM

Nor was Hitler stupid.
:bugeye:
So, you're saying that anti-semitism, racism, mass-murder, torture, genocide, slaughter, killing, starting the largest war ever seen on this earth, and then making the most fucktarded decisions which led to him being defeated and destroyed in said war, in addition to killing millions of his own people and destroying his own nation's infrastructure, is not a stupid thing to do?

Great Odin's Beard, what is wrong with you? :bugeye:

kenworth

08-19-05, 02:06 PM

:bugeye:
So, you're saying that anti-semitism, racism, mass-murder, torture, genocide, slaughter, killing, starting the largest war ever seen on this earth, and then making the most fucktarded decisions which led to him being defeated and destroyed in said war, in addition to killing millions of his own people and destroying his own nation's infrastructure, is not a stupid thing to do?

Great Odin's Beard, what is wrong with you? :bugeye:

i have to agree with lawdog here,its dangerous to say that hitler was stupid because he wasnt,he was time man of the year for fucks sake!he single handedly rescued the german economy.you cannot be a stupid man and get into power in the way that he did,using peoples weaknesses and other countries indecision to get his power.however he let power go to his head and became even more mental and arrogant and that was his downfall.also he only had one ball.

Lawdog

08-19-05, 02:13 PM

You may hate what he did, you may even hate the man himself, but you cannot deny the facts of his machiavellan political genius and power to convince the masses. He started to make mistakes as he got older and went on drugs, mistakes like invading Russia. He would most likely be diagnosed with mental illness, megalomania or socio-pathetic today. Personally I think he was possessed by the Devil and was an antichrist, which would explain his ability at mass hypnotism and terror, in accord with the prophecies.

tecoyah

08-19-05, 02:19 PM

Hapsburg

08-19-05, 02:37 PM

i have to agree with lawdog here,its dangerous to say that hitler was stupid because he wasnt,he was time man of the year for fucks sake!he single handedly rescued the german economy.you cannot be a stupid man and get into power in the way that he did,using peoples weaknesses and other countries indecision to get his power.however he let power go to his head and became even more mental and arrogant and that was his downfall.also he only had one ball.
Hmmmm....maybe "insane" was the word I was looking for.
Still, though, he was a military retard. His military decisions fucked over his own war effort, and he got omgwtfpwnz0rd for it.

Ophiolite

08-19-05, 03:38 PM

Evolutionary Theory responsible for Nazism Unfortunately, your graceful and beloved theory of Evolution has a dark side when combined with astheistic and neopaganism/humanism:It is clear (and well known to any one who has taken the trouble to learn a little of the history of Germany in the inter-war years) that Hitler and his followers took much from Darwin's thoughts on 'survival of the fittest'. It is equally clear (and well known to any one who has taken the trouble to learn a little of the details of Darwinism and how these have been adapted and adjusted over the century or so since Darwin published Origin of Species) that what the naziz took from evolutionary theory was so grossly simplified as to be in error.
Blaming the Holocaust and Hitler's other madnesses on evolution is akin to blaming the attack on the Twin Towers on Orville and Wilbur Wright.
So, Lawdog, an interesting article, an interesting site, but ultimately a flawed conclusion.

Lucas

08-19-05, 03:46 PM

In that case you could also say that the Wright Brothers were responsible for the disaster of the Twin Towers, because they invented the plane. No, sorry. Evil minds will always find the dark side of things, in this case the theory of evolution. Hitler was evil, I'm sure that if creationism was the standard theory in Germany in that time, he would have managed to find an interpretation of Creationism denigrating jews. I'm sorry, but I find fundamentalists like you despicable persons, you better should start reading some science books, now you are apparenting to be a rather silly person

Edit: Ophiolite was more rapid to mention the Twin Towers example

SnakeLord

08-19-05, 03:56 PM

A couple of years back I had a long debate with a journalist from the New York Times who had written an article stating that the Game GTA: Vice City should be banned. He cited it's extremely 'realistic' violence and the case of a couple of kids who played it and then went out and started shooting cars.

In short I explained to him that he might aswell then ask for everything to be banned - for example Pulp Fiction which was 100 times more 'realistic' than a computer game will ever be, and just as violent. I then proceeded to explain that the issue is not with the product, it's with the person.

I heard of a kid once who thought he was Superman, jumped out his window and went splat on the concrete.

I asked if he would ask for a ban on Superman merchandise, or whether he would instead recognise that Superman wasn't to blame, but that the kid had something clearly wrong with him.

It's pretty much the same thing here, and I find it dishonest and rather naive of you, Lawdog, to try and pass the blame around in such fashion.

kenworth

08-19-05, 03:57 PM

Hmmmm....maybe "insane" was the word I was looking for.
Still, though, he was a military retard. His military decisions fucked over his own war effort, and he got omgwtfpwnz0rd for it.

yeah,i heard that they were planning to assasinate him but by 1944 they stopped trying cause he was fucking up the war and they were worried if they killed him someone compentant might take over.

KennyJC

08-19-05, 04:37 PM

Maybe Lawdog has a point... I mean, you'd never see anyone using religious teachings to justify killing.

Raithere

08-19-05, 05:26 PM

Luther does not represent genuine Christian doctrine anyway. Yes, I'm well familiar with the "No True Scotsman" argument, logical fallacy that it is.

You need to explain to me why Hitler had many thousands of Catholics put in death camps along with the Jews.Politics. As I already stated it seems that he believed in Christianity but also believed that it should serve the State.

His only purpose for promoting ideas and saying he believed in Christianity and the German Church and such is so that he could get elected.Who elected him? Who is it that his appeals to Christianity were directed towards?

A brief reading of Hitlers favorite philosopher Neiztche, like his work "the AntiChrist" will help you understand. Been there, done that.

You seem to want to separate Social Darwinism from Evolution. You are walking a very sticky wicket.Hardly. The misunderstanding and misapplication of idea is not the idea itself. Biological Evolution is science. Social Darwinism is not. Big difference. Huge.

Furthermore, you should be very careful about talking about Christ in that way, like blaming him for stuff. Remember my friend, Death will come for you someday, who will you turn to then?I'm shaking. :rolleyes:

Look. I'm simply using your own argument.

Darwin didn't invent Social Darwinism. Some bastards took what he said about Biology and tried to apply it to human society. They misunderstood it, twisted it out of context, and used it to justify all kinds of terrible behavior. This is no different that some asshole taking the Bible, misunderstanding it, twisting it out of context and using it to justify all kinds of terrible behavior. Therefore, if Darwin is to blame for Social Darwinism and Social Darwinism is responsible for Nazism then Jesus is responsible for all the horrors Christians have committed in his name.

But I know, I committed the sin that you theists hate so much. I applied logic to God.

~Raithere

Raithere

08-19-05, 07:56 PM

Considering yourself to be a Christian and being a Christian are two different things. Hitler was not a follower of Christ. They used the church to help get what they wanted, just as so many do. The more powerful a Christian, the less likely they are to be a Christian.This is known as the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. It works like this:

A statement is made such as, "No true Scotsman wears underpants under his kilt."
The refutation, "Argyle Gregor is a Scotsman and he wears underpants under his kilt."
The counter is then made, "Then Argyle Gregor is not a true Scott."

As you can see, the fallacy is based upon circular reasoning. The conclusion becomes part of the premise.

Your argument is the same and thus fallacious.

The definition of a Christian is one who believes in Jesus Christ. Whether or not Hitler was a Christian by this definition no one can know. Of course, we cannot know that the former Pope, John Paul, was Christian by this definition either. All we can know is what they professed to believe.

Once again though, Hitler's true belief is actually irrelevant to my argument.
Why do I have to keep repeating myself?

~Raithere

§outh§tar

08-19-05, 08:43 PM

Sleeper

08-19-05, 10:58 PM

Let us pray for discernment. "by their fruits ye shall know them"

Unfortunately, your graceful and beloved theory of Evolution has a dark side when combined with astheistic and neopaganism/humanism:

TRUE FRUITS OF THE THEORY (http://www.trueorigin.org/holocaust.asp)

Hello Lawdog. I have only glanced at the link so can't comment on its content but I think it is important to keep in mind that European antisemitism predates Darwinism by by many centuries. My understanding is that antisemitism actually has its origins in the New Testament (that's another discussion) and prior to the 19th century all antisemitism was religious in nature. The USA and Canada turned away a shipload of German Jewish refugees before the start of the war (sent them back to Nazi Germany where they all perished). This refusal to admit them had nothing to do with Darwinism and everything to do with a long standing dislike of Jews. The future state of Israel had British support prior to the British mandate of Palestine because some British leaders (Churchill included) thought world Jewry could be influential in bringing the Great War to a favourable end (a lot of nonsense!) and many Germans believed (unjustifiably) that Jews were responsible for their losing the war. This is where Hitler's antisemitism stems from - not Darwinism! The Nazi party co-opted social Darwinism because it suited their purpose. Had Darwinian theory not been available to corrupt they would have found another excuse to murder Jews. REMEMBER - Hitler's anti-semitism did not originate in Darwinism but sprang from his misguided belief that the Jews had betrayed Germany.

Hapsburg

08-20-05, 12:19 AM

many Germans believed (unjustifiably) that Jews were responsible for their losing the war.
Exactly.
In reality, it was an amalgam of many conflicting interests, mostly involving socialists, not Jewish Germans. The whole damn mess could have been totally avoided if Russia, and in effect, France, had not allied with Serbia prior to 1914. It would've just been the "Austro-Serb War of 1914" instead of "The Great War". Hilter wouldnt've had any basis for claiming power, and Europe probably would be in a better economic condition to absorb the shock of the 1929 Depression (if it happens at all,).

Hapsburg

08-20-05, 12:50 AM

It was really Serbia's fault, ultimately. I mean, yeah, Austria overreacted a bit, and Germany didn't do enough to stop them, but in the end, it was Serbia's government that supported and funded the terrorist organization that fired the first shot of the war...the assassination of Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand.

Sleeper

08-20-05, 10:25 AM

Very good point. But I will just like to ask one thing..

You haven't seen any Christians around handling snakes and drinking poison, just as the inspired Apostles testified to doing have you?

I mean, if Christians started doing that, or I dunno.. things as wild and crazy as nailing themselves to crosses and/or starving themselves for days on end in fasting, you think we could get a ban on Christianity? ;)

South Star, are you being facetious? Christians, particularily in Third World Catholic countries, do nail themselves to crosses at Easter and there is a snake handling Christian cult in Tennessee: The Dolly Pond Church of God. (See: http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Snakes.html) The founder of the movement died of a snake bite as have several other members. As a result snake handling was banned.

Sleeper

08-20-05, 10:33 AM

Exactly.
In reality, it was an amalgam of many conflicting interests, mostly involving socialists, not Jewish Germans. The whole damn mess could have been totally avoided if Russia, and in effect, France, had not allied with Serbia prior to 1914. It would've just been the "Austro-Serb War of 1914" instead of "The Great War". Hilter wouldnt've had any basis for claiming power, and Europe probably would be in a better economic condition to absorb the shock of the 1929 Depression (if it happens at all,).

I agree with everything you say above. As for the rise of anti-Semitism in Germany, much of it also resulted from the sudden influx of poor eastern European Jews, which I didn't mention as I didn't want to get too far off topic.

(Q)

08-20-05, 12:47 PM

The Church provides in its dogma provisions for a just war.

With that one statement, you have encapsulated all that is the purpose of religion.

I think I'll go and throw up now.

Raithere

08-20-05, 08:39 PM

In other words, I don't think Hitler ever considered himself to be a Christian, he just professed to be when it fit his agenda. I thought I should at least point my mistake out.He didn't only speak of being Christian during political speeches. There are many references from private conversations as well as from before he began his rise to power. So I would tend to disagree. Certainly it seems that he had quite a warped interpretation of Christianity and he did use it to serve his own agenda but then that is what this thread is about after all.

~Raithere

mountainhare

08-20-05, 09:06 PM

In other words, I don't think Hitler ever considered himself to be a Christian, he just professed to be when it fit his agenda

Ahh, I see. And how would you define 'Christian'? And why should we take your personal definition seriously?

Hapsburg

08-20-05, 09:57 PM

One who believes in Christ. To believe in Christ, you would display evidence for what Jesus taught.
Oh, like how the fanatically christian Crusaders slaughtered and butchered thousands of Muslims and Jews between 1095 and 1273? Or like how the fanatically christian Teutonic Knights obliterated the Baltic Prussian and Slavic peoples in the name of your "christ"? Or like how the Pope(s) ordered state-sanctioned genocide of anyone who wasn't christian in the inquisitions throughout Europe and North America? Or how the Conquistadors murdered nearly every single Mayan, Incan, or Aztec they saw in the Americas?
:rolleyes:

Hapsburg

08-21-05, 12:41 AM

Oh, and like how Jesus Christ formed His battalions and marched against the Romans.
I would've respected him more if he did organize armed rebellion.
And how He taught those who would follow Him to kill their neighbors.
He specifically didn't, but those that carried on his message did ("Kill the muslims! Arr!" so said every christian from 770 to 1300).
And how He preached hate as a hallmark of His ministry.
Again, he specifically didn't, but his followers did.
Yeah, I can see how His message was instruction to the Knights and the Pope
Well, since the Knights and the Pope blew it waaaay out of proportion, yeah.
(what the hell is a pope, anyway)
Christ's vicar on earth, spritual leader of Christianity, etc.
Damn, I'm an athiest, and even I knew that.
and the Conquistadors, who, as SouthStar put it so eloquently, were motivated by gold.
They were also devoutly religious...the gold was the initial motiviator, but when they discovered "pagan savages", they killed them on religious reasons.

§outh§tar

08-21-05, 02:41 AM

South Star, are you being facetious? Christians, particularily in Third World Catholic countries, do nail themselves to crosses at Easter and there is a snake handling Christian cult in Tennessee: The Dolly Pond Church of God. (See: http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Snakes.html) The founder of the movement died of a snake bite as have several other members. As a result snake handling was banned.

Yes, I was being facetious. But admitting that ruins the fun!

SnakeLord

08-21-05, 03:40 AM

Against the teachings of Christ. Christ commanded His followers to spread His message, not kill people.

I understand your point and I believe what you say, but Christ never directed anyone to do those things. He instructed people to love their enemies. Isn't that exactly the opposite of what these examples illustrate.

You have to take into account that if you're one of those people that believes jesus is god and that there's only one god, then he is the very same being from the OT who ordered many slaughters, performed many slaughters, commanded people to stone prostitutes to death, stone naughty children to death, caused the death of just about every single human and animal on the planet via drowning etc etc etc.

water

08-21-05, 03:44 AM

Hapsburg

08-21-05, 04:35 AM

I know who the pope is supposed to be. I just don't believe it.
Hmmm....I take it you are a Protestant?
Pissant.

Anyway, you do realize you are using improper grammar throughout your post? Improper noun ("he") is not supposed to be capitalized. :rolleyes:

Hapsburg

08-21-05, 01:52 PM

Hmmm....that's odd, because isn't religion supposed to be NOT taught in public schools?
Hmmmm.

Hapsburg

08-21-05, 02:28 PM

It's a federal law, that public schools cannot teach religion. It was ruled unconstitutional to teach religion in public schools in about fourty-five years ago.

Hapsburg

08-21-05, 03:33 PM

Aye, I am. The schools here teach evolution and proper grammar.

Hapsburg

08-21-05, 05:35 PM

I usually do ace my tests, yeah.
And, yeah, I'm guessing that some kind of alien life out there (the universe is way too fucking big for earth to be the only hospitable planet.), they've probably figured out how to utilize radio waves of some kind for communication.

superluminal

08-21-05, 06:46 PM

A radio. What's the point?

Hapsburg

08-21-05, 07:23 PM

I don't know what aliens with radios have to do with nazism and evolutionary theory. dalahar brought it up.

superluminal

08-21-05, 07:35 PM

Okey Dokey(?)

SnakeLord

08-22-05, 10:34 AM

I don't think God gives a rat's ass what people think of His methods. He calls Himself a "Terrible God" (meaning to those who hate Him).

I don't think Hitler gave a rat's ass what people thought of his methods. He was a "terrible person" (to those that he hated). If you think the statement justifies the one then it certainly justifies the other.

Those people who were slaughtered would have killed mine and your asses at the drop of a hat if we were to show up in their frontier.

Who? Where? How do you know?

They were definitely ungodly in God's eyes.

I see.. So much so that he drowned them all. But then it is worth asking whether Hitler wasn't considered ungodly in god's eyes, or anyone of the countless nasty bastards that have not been dealt with in such fashion.

About the flood...I figure the "Conan the Barbarian" character comes from around this time. Except these people were extremely evil. The whole world was evil.

Yeah ok, the whole world was evil? What were the 6 month old babies doing? Rape, murder, bank robbery? What?

About the prostitutes, there weren't many. Not because they were stoned to death

Whether there was 1 or 5 million is of no relevance. Your god still ordered the death of them by stoning. You wouldn't really think what a woman does with her vagina is all that important that it deserves killing them for it.

I have had a round or two with alcohol but if someone told me they were going to stone me to death if I got drunk, I would have to pass up that drink.

And what would your thoughts be concerning the person who told you he would kill you?

Back then, for a while, Israel was the envy of the rest of the world and quite blessed. People would flock to Israel to see for themselves what God had done for them.

?? Who?

Rosnet

08-22-05, 11:58 AM

Lawdog, don't you understand that Raithere blasted your theory in Page 2 itself? If you argue that the theory of Evolution was responsible for Nazism, then by the same account, you have to accept that Christianity was as much responsible for it. Whether Hitler was practising true Christianity or not does not concern you. By the same account that Hitler wasn't doing what Darwin had told him (or would have told him). Their "fruits", remember? There you have it. Nazism is a fruit of Christianity, and so, Christianity should be abolished, according to its own teachings.
So this means that Evolution should also be abolished along with this? No. And agin, no. Because since Christianity has already been destroyed, that silly rule you stated in the beginning is also invalid (if it is based solely on the Bible). And besides, with christianity gone, you have all the more need of a good theory to explain our existence.

superluminal

08-22-05, 07:04 PM

dalahar,

First,

Maybe they should have spent the SETI money on the starving kids in Africa.
Maybe. And maybe they should have spent the 2.6 million that they spent on that new church down the street on the starving kids in Africa. That particular sword swings in many ways.

I figured we would have picked up at least a couple signals by now. Looks like nobody is evolving but us.
Here's a neat example of why we may live in a galaxy teeming with life, but never pick up a radio signal. I think Sagan came up with it but I'm not sure.

Imagine that from the time you develop radio to the time you go to fiber, cable, directed communications (microwave, satellite, etc.) or just plain low power local communications (instead of wasting all that RF energy by beaming it into space) is say a couple of hundred years. That's the only time slot that you will be inadvertently broadcasting your presence.

Now imagine our 4.5by history mapped onto the height of two very tall buildings, standing side-by-side. That couple of hundred years represents less than the thickness of a penny perched on top of each building. What are the odds of those two pennies being at exactly the same height? On any number of buildings? Yep. Not very encouraging.

superluminal

08-22-05, 07:10 PM

dalahar:

It is inate in humans. To the atheists...first there is a god...then there is none.

No. Belief is innate, not god(s). How many Buddhists do you think there are? Strict Buddhists do not believe in god(s) or that Buddha was anything other than a man who found the path to enlightenment.

See how this sits with you:

http://www.csicop.org/si/9505/belief.html

superluminal

08-22-05, 09:10 PM

Radio waves do continue, but their energy per unit area becomes weaker by the inverse square of the distance. Upshot: casually transmitted signals get too weak to detect after a few dozen or a few hundred light years. The point is that we may stop transmitting anything detectable very soon as we improve our technology. It's a waste of energy to transmit into space. And as far as I know we've only sent one deliberate signal. It was to M13, a large globular cluster 13,000ly away.

Anyway, it's just a thought. Might be completely wrong.

Angelic Being

08-22-05, 10:08 PM

The Scriptures stated that in the Last Days there would be a great period of Tribulation for Loyal Christians that would last Six Years. Today we have come to realize and recognise that this period was in reference to the duration of World War II.

The fact that this period was prophesied about 2000 years before it occured makes it logical to believe that the devil had a part in this monstrosity.

Hitler was groomed as a child to do the work of the devil. His exposure to a troubled childhood and at a time when the Christian Church (this is not a title) were locked in serious debate about alot of its doctrines gave the devil (or god to some of you) the right opportunity to strike at mankind - remember, this war was for the destruction of civilization up to that point, and if Hitler had got hold of nuclear bombs the devils plans would have worked.

The Apostle Paul said something that I often considered strange - some have been written off - The Messiah said that there are no preexisting conditions to anyones life, so what did Apostle Paul mean?

I grasped the message of Apostle Pauls words when I realised that he meant that this would only refer to a select few ("special") - these ones would be selected by the devil himself to be 'movers' of his designs.

So there you go - hitler, stalin, saddam, castro ( modern demons so to speak) - will another such as hitler rise???

I will elaborate on this at a later time.

The Creator Loves You!!!!!!

Angelic Being

08-22-05, 10:23 PM

This is known as the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. It works like this:

A statement is made such as, "No true Scotsman wears underpants under his kilt."
The refutation, "Argyle Gregor is a Scotsman and he wears underpants under his kilt."
The counter is then made, "Then Argyle Gregor is not a true Scott."

As you can see, the fallacy is based upon circular reasoning. The conclusion becomes part of the premise.

Your argument is the same and thus fallacious.

The definition of a Christian is one who believes in Jesus Christ. Whether or not Hitler was a Christian by this definition no one can know. Of course, we cannot know that the former Pope, John Paul, was Christian by this definition either. All we can know is what they professed to believe.

Once again though, Hitler's true belief is actually irrelevant to my argument.
Why do I have to keep repeating myself?

~Raithere

The Scriptures stated that in the Last Days there would be a great period of Tribulation for Loyal Christians that would last Six Years. Today we have come to realize and recognise that this period was in reference to the duration of World War II.

The fact that this period was prophesied about 2000 years before it occured makes it logical to believe that the devil had a part in this monstrosity.

Hitler was groomed as a child to do the work of the devil. His exposure to a troubled childhood and at a time when the Christian Church (this is not a title) were locked in serious debate about alot of its doctrines gave the devil (or god to some of you) the right opportunity to strike at mankind - remember, this war was for the destruction of civilization up to that point, and if Hitler had got hold of nuclear bombs the devils plans would have worked.

The Apostle Paul said something that I often considered strange - some have been written off - The Messiah said that there are no preexisting conditions to anyones life, so what did Apostle Paul mean?

I grasped the message of Apostle Pauls words when I realised that he meant that this would only refer to a select few ("special") - these ones would be selected by the devil himself to be 'movers' of his designs.

So there you go - hitler, stalin, saddam, castro ( modern demons so to speak) - will another such as hitler rise???

I will elaborate on this at a later time.

The Creator Loves You!!!!!!

superluminal

08-22-05, 10:34 PM

dalahar:

I also know I am going to get a scheitz-load of flak for this. That's cool!

Ok. If you insist! :)

Anyway, this:

Piss.....no one knows diddly about what is out there. It could be a place that has no physics at all. We do not know.

is exactly the point of the atheist. It could be a realm ruled by giant Hostess Twinky™ people. Postulating this, and an infinity of other things that can be imagined, including a god, it pointless. It can be neither proved or disproved. In fact, the simplest position is that the universe is just as it appears - natural. A god gains you nothing. You can't use the god theory to predict the behavior of gas molecules under pressure. It dosen't help you in repairing a faulty heart valve (prayer has a proven zero effect on physical reality). But it does allow a savvy few to manipulate this weakness in the psyches of millions to the detriment of all.

The god theory really is on a par with the Hostess Twinky™ people theory. In fact I have extensive objective evidence that twinkies exist. Are they intelligent? Who knows. Maybe they're just observing us...

twz (http://www.laserwireless.net/Diagrams/twz.mp3)

Angelic Being

08-22-05, 10:49 PM

7 years...culminating in the Battle of Armageddon, in Israel.

Maybe, but the bastard that comes around during the tribulations will make Hitler look like Howdy-Doody.

I disagree with you there - The Scriptures say six years and it is gonna stay six years - please do not try to change my words, I am trying to defend you from those "genius" atheists out there.

By the way, your anger is directed towards the wrong person - hitler - if you had read my message carefully you would have realized that it is the devil that is responsible - one man cannot do such great evil but one fallen angel certainly can and his name is LIAR-SATAN.

The Creator Loves You.!!

superluminal

08-22-05, 10:50 PM

The Creator Loves You.!!
What? Only two exclamation points? Getting tired ABJ?

Angelic Being

08-22-05, 11:03 PM

I don't go around trying to convince people of God. I try to live a good life and be a good example to the people around me. If they ask me what I believe, I tell them that I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe that He is the gateway to eternal life. I don't belong to a church. I am not in any organized religion. I just believe in Jesus Christ.

Your explanation about god not helping in the gas molecule business or the faulty heart valve is ok. But I don't want God to help me with gas molecules, or help me with an algebra problem. I want it all. Eternal life, please! And I'll take it blindly, by faith.

Then start practising what you preach - you sound much like the rich guy who approached The Christ and said that he was keeping the ten commandments and so on........ - the question is are U really????

The Creator Loves You!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

superluminal

08-22-05, 11:05 PM

dalahar:

Your explanation about god not helping in the gas molecule business or the faulty heart valve is ok. But I don't want God to help me with gas molecules, or help me with an algebra problem. I want it all. Eternal life, please! And I'll take it blindly, by faith.

But what about the Hostess Twinky™ people???

superluminal

08-22-05, 11:14 PM

Yeah, I knew that.

Angelic Being

08-22-05, 11:15 PM

Wait...let me go out and sale everything I own...

If you want - but remember what Apostle Paul said - it is no use your being a servant of GOD if you cannot look after your family - so if you have a family or people that depends on you surely selling your everything would be a negative effect on them.

How you do it will depend on you and your family. Remember - The Christ did not tell us to become fools by selling everything we have and be unable to look after your loved ones.

Hapsburg

08-22-05, 11:15 PM

Oh....fuck! I thought Jadon left permanently, since he hadn't posted in a while. Damn! :p

Angelic Being

08-22-05, 11:21 PM

You didn't check out how I changed your words up there? :D

Apparently you do not understand the message of the story in The Scriptures that I referred too.

Sigh!!! another shallow minded person!!!!

superluminal

08-22-05, 11:28 PM

AB Jadon,

Why do you refer to Jesus as The Christ™? As if he were a thing, like "the cat" or "the car"? Nobody says "Hey look! It's the Bob!". What's up with that?

Angelic Being

08-22-05, 11:36 PM

AB Jadon,

Why do you refer to Jesus as The Christ™? As if he were a thing, like "the cat" or "the car"? Nobody says "Hey look! It's the Bob!". What's up with that?

Part of the reason is in the words you have just said.

superluminal

08-22-05, 11:40 PM

New! The Christ™ on a Stick® ice cream bars! Comes in three flavors:

Crunchy Crucifix Delight®

Apostle Apple Supreme®

and

Rocky Road Ressurrection®

Stock up now if you're unsaved, for that long stay in Hell!

One per unsaved after Judgement Day. While supplies (and souls) last.

superluminal

08-22-05, 11:51 PM

Cool! Where do I pay? Which tent?

Angelic Being

08-23-05, 12:03 AM

Proof that evolution caused Hitler to freak:

z^2/sqrt28(36-3z/6*42(t))

Thank you all for participating in this thread.

HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

Hapsburg

08-23-05, 12:09 AM

AB Jadon,

Why do you refer to Jesus as The Christ;? As if he were a thing, like "the cat" or "the car"? Nobody says "Hey look! It's the Bob!". What's up with that?
Actually Jay's right on this one. "Christ" comes from the Greek "Khristos" which means "anointed one". "Christ" is a title, not a name. Also, the name "Jesus" is just a hellenized version of the name "Joshua".

superluminal

08-23-05, 12:10 AM

dalahar:

Proof that evolution caused Hitler to freak:

z^2/sqrt28(36-3z/6*42(t))

Thank you all for participating in this thread.

You fool! You forgot to add the z3 term to the radical denominator! You've just proved that squirrels eat their own body weight of acorns every three days! Fool! Ha!

superluminal

08-23-05, 12:18 AM

superluminal

08-23-05, 12:31 AM

dalahar,

It probably dosen't have enough resolution to begin with so it turns to crap when you reduce it. Did you try applying a sharpening filter to it?

Hapsburg

08-23-05, 12:31 AM

Because it is a painting. I copy-pasted it to MS Paint, resized it, and used it as my av.
What, you got a problem with it?

Raithere

08-23-05, 12:39 AM

Hapsburg

08-23-05, 12:43 AM

It looks like a scary god type thingy and I am scared of it. :eek:
What, the Kaiser of Austria scares you?
:p
Boo!
http://www.beatificationemperorcharles.info/images/JPG%20800/cd%201/01--Line%20of%20Succession/Cat%20No%2012A--Emperor%20Franz%20Josef--Original%20Painting,%20Oskar%20Bruech,%201909--Artist,%20Christopher%20Reisser.jpg

superluminal

08-23-05, 12:45 AM

It does look very much like my foot, but it's not. I thought about my comment to AB Jadon about him noticing that his feet looked like atrophied hands or something, and I figured it was time to change my av. Hmm... Not sure I like it.

superluminal

08-23-05, 12:52 AM

That's it. I'm changin' it.

superluminal

08-23-05, 12:58 AM

There we go. Much better.

Hapsburg

08-23-05, 01:01 AM

Wilhelm...oh, no. I didn't recognize him at first. He doesn't scare me. :)
That's not wilhelm, fuckface :p
Wilhelm II was Kaiser of Germany.
Franz Josef was Kaiser of Austria.
Learn your history.

Hapsburg

08-23-05, 01:05 AM

Far from it. The two houses of Hohenzollern and Habsburg never went close to marrying into each other, and Franz Josef (NOT "Frank". It was "Franz", or Francis in english) was born in 1830. Wilhelm II was born in 1859. Far and much between, lad, far and much between.

Hapsburg

08-23-05, 01:19 AM

No, I haven't.
Anyway, the name "Franz" is often anglicasized as "Francis".
Ludwig = Louis
Luipold = Leopold
Wilhelm = William
Friedrich = Frederick
August = Augustus
Clemens = Clement
Johann/Johannes = John/Jonathan
Josef = Joseph
Wenzel = Wenceclaus
Karl = Charles

superluminal

08-23-05, 01:26 AM

Gotcha.

Hapsburg

08-23-05, 02:11 AM

First, I have been joking a lot but I have also been paying attention to what you are saying. You are obviously into German history. I was born in Germany...Frankfurt. I have been there 3 times. I lived in Darmstadt and Bad Tolz.
Cool.

Do you by any chance play wargames...like 'Computer War In Europe'? Just curious.
Not often, at least not on the interweb. I play iv3 and RoN mostly, but just single-player. A game I really freakin' want, cause it looks so cool, is a game called "Imperial Glory". It's a Napoleonic wargame, looks just pure excellent.

SnakeLord

08-23-05, 10:10 AM

You know what will happen then? Atheists will be killing atheists by the bucketloads...that's what. Atheists will be starving to death in underdeveloped countries because atheists in rich countries won't give a shit. Don't make like the world is going to turn to roses because humans don't change no matter what you call them.

My apologies, but where did I 'make like' the world was going to turn to roses? I don't even remember getting into such subject - I was more focused on how Hitler didn't even kill a hundredth of what god has so I fail to see the problem.

Another thing, yours is a losing cause.

And what cause is that might I ask?

People have a built in knowledge that there is a god.

No they don't.

Do you think they formulated that idea just because "you" think they are ignorant?

Of course. With little understanding of the planet, the simplest idea is to conjure up an exterior being that does it all. To then explain this being they generally follow the environment:

South American gods are generally all snakes, Egyptians had crocodile and jackal gods, the Indians have elephant and tiger gods - etc.

They have just looked at what is present, and powerful - slapped a name on it and considered it the doer of all. Everytime there's an earthquake the gods are angry, everytime the plants grow the god is happy.

I will change your last quote to something I think is more appropriate:

"People have a built in ability to create imaginary friends".

The idea of god, if it is not inate, would take a lot to conjure up.

Not at all. Now, if perhaps South Americans were conjuring up elephant gods and Romans were conjuring up Amazonian frog gods, then I would certainly be more impressed - but to make a god out of something you see everyday.. Not impressive. Hell, I've just created a badger god and hedgehog god 'cause us Brits lack a god of our own.

You would have to teach people that there is no god and that won't stop most of them from believing there is a god of some sort.

Well although it might sound uncaring, other people are really not my concern. I wont let you teach my daughter that shit but everyone else can do as they please.

Start a colony of people on a secluded island giving them no knowledge of god or any of your ideas, and we will see your evolution when you return to the island in 100 years and they have a 30 foot totem pole and are dancing around it in order to please their god.

Sure, and that totem pole and focus of worship would most certainly be given to something that is prevalent on that island. Just like Red Indian totem poles with eagles, buffalo and other such things that lived right in front of their faces.

To the atheists...first there is a god...then there is none.

You're completely wrong. Everyone, (you included), was born with no belief at all. The belief you now have came along when someone plopped the idea of god and jesus and brahma and whoever else you can think of in your head.

Medicine*Woman

08-23-05, 11:46 AM

SnakeLord

08-23-05, 01:03 PM

God would have created more people than Hitler, also. If He sees reason to eliminate them, that is His business. Hitler created no one.

That is the same as justifying a parent killing their child because they made them.

People do have a built in knowledge of god.

No they don't.

People do have a built in knowledge of god. Do you think the idea was dreamed up by one person and then all these other people flocked to the idea of god when there was no seed to grow to begin with? There is something there.

That's akin to saying that people have a built in knowledge of unicorns, lake monsters and fairies. All of those I have mentioned abound in world culture, are as old as beliefs in gods and obviously, given your statement, couldn't have been 'flocked to' by others.

Back in the early days man worshipped things like the sun. People didn't really need to "flock to one man's idea" because everyone could feel and see it's power in action. They couldn't look directly at it's 'face', but their god was ever present, (for half a day).

These beliefs would have been handed down, handed down and handed down. Taught from generation to generation. The stories of course, (like everything else), evolved. Ideas are not static, and given time the images associated with the gods would have changed to different things, (snakes/crocodiles etc). Different people, with as much imagination as we have, would have made stories, poems and songs to describe how they thought the world began, their purpose on it and so on.

The ideas have been spoon fed to humanity for thousands of years and that is why it is hard to get rid of.

None of that substantiates a belief that in man exists a "built in knowledge". gods have only survived, and only continue to survive because of a lack of knowledge. Until every question has been answered, gods will survive. So yes, I agree with you that we cannot remove gods and religion, but their lights are already starting to flicker. Several thousand years ago man said god caused plagues and the like, now we blame germs and disease and go about eradicating them. Thousands of years ago god said it was ok to keep slaves, now we disagree with him and say it isn't. Thousands of years ago god ordered us to stone prostitutes and naughty children to death, now we disagree with him and have found more appropriate and less harmful methods. Etc etc.

god is fading into the sunset slowly but surely.

People who don't want to believe just deny it.

So, you disagree with me when I state we're all born without god belief?

If god were such a far fetched proposition, then I wonder why I am not getting sucked in by all propositions.

I could use the rather pathetic response that I was given: "you just deny it", but I wont, because that's naive.

We are who we are because of a billion different things. Our associations, upbringing, experiences and so on. You are a religious man because something/s in your life have made you that way - be it upbringing, circumstance, or experience. I cannot fault you for that, and I would simply ask that you understand that instead of just putting it down to "just deny it".

I am an honest man and will hereby tell you that I will believe anything you want - gods, sea serpents or goblins. All you need to do is provide adequate evidence. Am I asking too much?

Do you think the debate would be so passionate to some if there was an inate idea that there was no god?

Those people who debate passionately... Have they been spoonfed belief? As a result "inate idea" has no place. What you would need is a child that has never even heard the word.

Of course people would make their god something familiar. That is a result of there being an idea that god exists to begin with.

To begin with? As in: when humans didn't really know anything? How else would they explain the world and it's events? Think the first idea would have been evolution and gravity? No no, that comes later when man understands more, the simple answer comes first.

These early men would have wondered just as much as you do, but with no ability to explain it. No equipment, no ability to study - across a multitude of people with a different expertise, no technology, no anything. All they had was a beaming hot ball of fire in space that killed them on occasion, made plants grow, and couldn't be looked at. The world was flat as a pancake, surrounded by a sky dome and supported by an orang utan's bottom. Would that imply inate knowledge of orang utan anus and sky domes?

I don't think I want to count all of the gods that people believe in

Most certainly not. All of which were created by people who didn't know anything. They could not explain an earthquake, a bolt of lightning, or the difference between life and death, (other than dead people didn't breathe).

Did evolution decide that we need to believe in god? For what? Survivability? Comfort?

No, not in the slightest. An idea gets taught from generation to generation and it sticks. We all generally try and avoid fire. We know it burns. This doesn't imply that we have an inate knowledge of what fire does, but that it has been taught from generation to generation for thousands of years. It only takes one man to burn his hand to ensure it will become 'known' by everyone to follow.

I will make sure I don't teach your daughter about god, but it will be up to you to teach her that there is no god.

That's where we obviously differ. It is not my place to tell my daughter what does or does not exist. She can believe in Lenny the leprechaun if she chooses to. A parent has no right to tell their child what they should or should not believe in. When she's old enough she can examine all the data, (or not, it's her choice), and come to her own conclusions. Given that I have stated a parent does not have the right, nobody else bloody well does either.

If no one ever told me about god, I would have searched on my own.

If no-one told you about god, you wouldn't even be making that statement. The very term 'god' would be completely unknown to you.

Raithere

08-23-05, 03:11 PM

God would have created more people than Hitler, also. If He sees reason to eliminate them, that is His business. Hitler created no one.Why would you willingly submit to tyranny, even from God?

People do have a built in knowledge of god.There is no knowledge of god. There are no facts that you can point to, no evidence you can site beyond a claim of ignorance. And there is no innate universal understanding or there would be no debate and there certainly wouldn't be any atheists. There is only the human tendency to anthropomorphize. It's natural enough to perceive the universe through a personalized perspective; we have no other POV from which to experience the world. The problem is that this doesn't hold up to analysis. The clouds may seem angry when they turn dark and violent but they are not. The brook may seem happy. It's not.

The image of God that so many people see is simply a projection of their selves, displayed against the backdrop of the world.

~Raithere

Raithere

08-23-05, 03:49 PM

Yes. If, by your statement (since you don't believe), there is a God...then I would have no choice.I didn't ask whether you would or if you had a choice. I asked, why would you willingly submit to tyranny?

Let me rephrase the question: Presuming there is a god and presuming he created us, does this give him the moral authority to do whatever he wants to us?

I have knowledge of God through personal experience backed up with prophecy. Now, I know you wont like that answer but that is what I have.This is neither evidence nor knowledge. You have experience and your interpretation of that experience. The question is, how do you validate your interpretation?

Anthropomophization is assigning human characteristics to non-human things. I am not guilty of that. I don't analyze God. When you assign actions and attributes to God you have.

~Raithere

Raithere

08-23-05, 04:48 PM

I would not willingly submit to tyranny. I do not think God is a tyrant. He gives us a choice. I believe He is just and what He does is just. Going by Christian doctrine I cannot agree. Believe in me and do what I say or you will suffer eternal torment isn't a choice. It's tyranny.

You said I was assigning human characteristics to nature. That I have not been doing. Any human characteristics that God shares with man, I believe God had first.If god were the constant in the equation then all perceptions of god should be the same... or at least compatible with one another. That they are so disparate and conflicting (even within the same religion) leads me to conclude that the constant is not god. This is one of the core principles in my disbelief of a Christian god; I am unable to reconcile the concept even within its own paradigm.

~Raithere

Medicine*Woman

08-23-05, 05:22 PM

Were you in the military or are you an army brat? Hmm...I take for granted that you didn't just live there. If you were not in the military, how did you find yourself in Wiesbaden? I arrived in Germany the second time in January of 1982. I was in the army.
*************
M*W: Well, apparently, we just missed each other. I was one of the few USAF at the medical center. I departed Germany when the hostages were released and came to the hospital where I got to meet them. What unit were you in?

Raithere

08-23-05, 05:34 PM

No, it's just matter of fact to God. To Him it is just natural. If you deny Him, you cannot inherit life which comes from Him. It is more like, "Believe in Me and you will be saved."Saved from what, created by whom?

Either God is the author of everything or he is bound by something greater. If the former is true then eternal torment is his desire. If the latter is true then he is not God.

God is a constant in the sense that He never changes. In other words, He has different emotions, yes, emotions. But His character never changes. God has the ability to be angry, along with feeling sad. He also feels compassion and humor. But He is still a constant in who He is. He is holy and just. He abhors sin. He will not change in those respects.Different religions claim different characteristics... particularly in what God wants me to do. What lends credence to your claim? How can I know that you are accurately representing God? Maybe someone else is right and you are wrong. Perhaps, for me to get to Valhalla, I should instead die valiantly in battle.

~Raithere

Medicine*Woman

08-23-05, 06:12 PM

Alpha Company, 11th Signal Bn/32 AADCOM. I was at Cambrais-Fritsch Kaserne in Darmstadt. I was in a retrans unit and I had it made compared to the rest of the company. When everybody else went to the field, I got in my pickup truck w/radios in the back and cruised to either Monchburg, Kaiserslaut...er...K-town, or Malibokus. It has been 22 years so I might have the names a little screwed up or misspelled. Each place had a hill with a permanent radio sight and all I had to do was establish and maintain a relay for 2 other sights that retransmitted through me. It was a great time for me in the army. I got into "Conan the Barbarian" and read almost all the books. I wish we could have met because it would have been a trip to run into each other on this forum. What a coincidence that would have been. :)
*************
M*W: Did you by any chance know a Robert Goolsby. He had two tours while I was there. He was at Hahn AB, I forget the town. He married my best friend. I was active in the theater at Wiesbaden. I seem to recall he was in artillery tanks, etc. Wiesbaden AFB became an Army installation in 1976. V Corps was there. I lived at American Arms. I was a disco freak at that time, but didn't sit out too many dances. Used to go to the Amelia Earhart (NCO Club). It was a lot livelier than the Officer's Club at Lindsey AS. Those were the days!

Medicine*Woman

08-23-05, 09:06 PM

*************
M*W: Ah, yes... the concerts! Let me see if I can recall some of them:

Queen
Judas Priest
Thin Lizzy
Charlie Daniels Band
Pink Floyd - The Wall
Jethro Tull
Moody Blues

I can't remember all of them.

Hey, it's great to know somebody who was there. I spoke fluent Deutsche, but I've lost most of it.

Later

Hapsburg

08-23-05, 09:22 PM

Oh,man. The demo is 226 Mb. I am on dial-up. We're talking a whole day here. I better wait until a more convenient time.
I have bb. Hya Hya! :p
Seriosuly, though, it's fun, even though the demo only has two battle scenarios.
The full game that I read about on the site looks motherfuckin' awesome.

Raithere

08-23-05, 10:01 PM

God is not bound by something greater. He is the author of everything. Eternal torment is not His desire but it is a result of rejecting Him. It is a separation from Him because you don't believe (accept) Him.You can't have both. Either God made the rules or he didn't. Either things are (reputedly) the way he wants them to be or they aren't.

Regarding rejecting god, I've yet to see anything to reject other than an unfounded idea. It seems to me that it would be an infinitesimally small matter for God to make himself known unequivocally. I also find it unethical for God to enforce a set of rules without making them very explicit. Let me use an analogy.

Imagine driving along a road and you see a speed limit sign that says 35mph and right next to it one that says 55, then 20, then a stop sign, a yield sign, and a wrong way. What do you do? Would you think it ethically sound for a police officer to arrest you for failing to obey the 20mph speed limit?

This is me personally: I recognize Christ as the Messiah. I recognize in His words, deeds, and manner. Also in the authority that He exercised.I didn't ask what you believe though, I asked how you know you are right?

If you die in battle, we will bury you at Arlington. You should request that coins be placed on your eyes.Yet another myth of the afterlife... so should I strive to die valiantly or make sure to bring an obolus for Charon? If I become a suicide bomber will I be greeted by 70 virgins or will I burn in hell? Or will all of this striving only make certain that I retain my attachment to the world and never reach Nirvana?

Is my dilemma any clearer to you now?

~Raithere

Hapsburg

08-23-05, 11:34 PM

God is the law.
No, the U.S Government is The Law in these here parts, but it differs depending on region.

superluminal

08-23-05, 11:37 PM

Sherrif Cletus "rusty spurs" Abernathy III is the Law where I live.

Hapsburg

08-23-05, 11:48 PM

Sherrif Cletus "rusty spurs" Abernathy III is the Law where I live.
What kind of fucked name is that?Sounds like a hillbilly to me. :D

SnakeLord

08-24-05, 10:43 AM

Basically, if you were given proof that there is a god, and you could see with your own eyes, you would believe? You would believe but you would not approve.

Why would I not approve?

Further to which it wouldn't really make a difference, imo, whether I approved or not.. I would still then 'know' that god existed - and then if I was to be doomed to hell, it would actually be my fault for being sent there, {although that does bring up some serious issues of it's own}.

I deal with things that cannot be explained and so I feel I am at a disadvantage.

I generally get a small smirk on my face when people say "cannot be explained". That means that whenever someone starts mentioning god, they basically don't have the slightest clue concerning the subject matter they are speaking of. The same then would also be true of all those ancient people who gave you your religion would it not?

I am not highly educated nor have I a great position in the community. I am a lowly fellow if you want to know the truth. You might have already deduced that.

I never was a man for self-doubt. Look, you're better than that - no need to put yourself down.

Having said that, I am aware that god plays a big part in that, (from a christian perspective).. We're all sinners, all useless, all worthless little creations that can be 'switched off' whenever the creator has a bad day. That's a major aspect to me not liking christianity.

What exactly do we know? How much knowledge do we have as compared to the knowledge to be had?

Not a lot, but more than we did several thousand years ago.

Do we know that much about our universe? What about beyond?

Not a great deal, but more than we did several thousand years ago.

Do you believe that space is infinite? Does it never stop? What's on the outside of the universe?

Wouldn't know.

How little are we compared to what we have entered into? Are our minds capable of comprehending what might be possible (excluding god even)? Are there things in the universe and beyond that our minds might not be capable of understanding? I mean physically not capable, which, of course, would translate to mentally.

It's unlikely. Time and technology will provide the answers.

Do you not see flaws in evolution? Just curious.

In general science is not static. I accept that when it comes to theories that the details can 'evolve'. However, the fact that evolution happens simply cannot be disputed.

SnakeLord

08-25-05, 09:11 AM

also. It is just in regard to my belief in Jesus Christ that I only require faith. Here is why...it is one of the major themes in the Old Testament. "Abraham was saved by faith."

Ok, let's consider this a moment: In the bible it states that god spoke to Abraham, (quite a lot). This would show that 'faith' is not an issue. Abraham would "know" god because they had spoken to each other. 'Faith' only remains when the person does not actually 'know'.

When it comes to sacrificing his son, his 'faith' is not in question. The angel says: "Do not harm him, for now I know you fear god."

Seemingly god wants people to be afraid of him. I personally don't consider that a good thing.

At the end of the day, Abraham wouldn't have been 'saved by faith', but saved because god felt like talking to him. Had god not decided to approach Abraham, he'd still be sitting in Sumeria worshipping tiamat and marduk. As a conclusion to this, atheists are 'unsaved' merely because god doesn't feel like talking to us like he did with Adam, Moses, Noah, Abraham, Abimelech, etc etc etc etc.

I know that still leaves a lot to be desired for someone who does not believe.

Well, if he came and spoke to us all like he did Abraham, (and many other people), then this wouldn't be an issue. The only problem is that he's done a vanishing act. He doesn't generally seem to talk to people anymore, (other than to tell some woman to stone her sons to death, to tell some chinese man to crawl into a lions den and preach jesus to the lions and other such things like that).

Let it be said that you cannot in any way call these people "insane", or something along those lines without also labelling Abraham and the others the same way.

(I am sorry if you hate bible quotes in this forum like some of the others, but it is necessary if you would understand aspects of why I believe)

Not at all, I use them myself.

You never said whether you were a Ricky Hatton fan..

Who's he?

Lawdog

08-25-05, 09:12 AM

Hello Lawdog. I have only glanced at the link so can't comment on its content but I think it is important to keep in mind that European antisemitism predates Darwinism by by many centuries. My understanding is that antisemitism actually has its origins in the New Testament (that's another discussion) and prior to the 19th century all antisemitism was religious in nature. The USA and Canada turned away a shipload of German Jewish refugees before the start of the war (sent them back to Nazi Germany where they all perished). This refusal to admit them had nothing to do with Darwinism and everything to do with a long standing dislike of Jews. The future state of Israel had British support prior to the British mandate of Palestine because some British leaders (Churchill included) thought world Jewry could be influential in bringing the Great War to a favourable end (a lot of nonsense!) and many Germans believed (unjustifiably) that Jews were responsible for their losing the war. This is where Hitler's antisemitism stems from - not Darwinism! The Nazi party co-opted social Darwinism because it suited their purpose. Had Darwinian theory not been available to corrupt they would have found another excuse to murder Jews. REMEMBER - Hitler's anti-semitism did not originate in Darwinism but sprang from his misguided belief that the Jews had betrayed Germany.

I agree, but there are some errors in your historical research. The New Testament is much more proof of the persecution of Christians than Jews, wouldnt you say? Not only the Crucifixion, but the stoning of St. Stephen, the persecution of Saul, the difficulties of Paul of Tarsus, etc etc.

ALSO: I dont recall saying that antisemitism was brought about by a fascination with Darwinism/Evolution.

The idea of Survival of the Fittest and (un)natural selection, social and genetic engineering, was drawn from the philosophy of utopian-materialist/socialist and capitalist/atheistic/military-industrial 19th century matrix of bloodshed.

Though many misguided christians became jew-haters, antisemitism does not have its origins in Christianity, as many here would like to assert in their frenzy to illiminate the religion. Antisemitism has its origin in the old pagan cultures. We know this from Roman and Egyptian History, and the fact that Jews were disliked originally not because of being Christ-killers, but because their religion is exclusive and monotheist.

Germany's antisemitism stems from its ancient paganism. Germany never became a fully christianized people but always were trying to turn back to their pagan roots. In the middle Ages, when almost all Europe was Catholic even "the bad guys", the Church always got the blame. But even as far back as the middle ages the Church bemoaned the slaughter of Jews by nominal Catholics in Germany and Israel in the Crusades and forbade the persecution of Jews. When in the late middle ages Lutheranism offered an ungovernered and freed up form of christianity, the Germans felt free to let their old antisemitism flourish. In the 19th century the German aristocracy, dissillusioned by the industrial matrix, embraced the occult and neopaganism. They lured the weak christians including some Catholics into accepting a renewed antisemitism. Darwinism combined with the occult doctrines of Theosophy and German Neopaganism to create the Nazi machine.

Dr Lou Natic

08-25-05, 11:41 AM

(the Aztecs were prevented from offering thousands of human sacrifices because of Cortez's intervention)
Haha. Yeah, they're far happier being extinct than they were sacrificing the odd person.
Not that I'm against wiping out aztecs mind you, but that was a funny statement.

Angelic Being

08-25-05, 08:12 PM

Angelic Being

08-25-05, 08:18 PM

It seems to me that WWII was more of tribulation for Jews than loyal Christians.

But more to the point, how did you go about verifying this prophesy? I've read the Bible many times, not once does it mention Hitler or Germany. The reestablishment of a Jewish state cannot be considered evidence because it was, in part, a direct result of the "prophesy".

~Raithere

Should I tell you?

No, I think you would find it more exciting if you found it out for yourself.

But I assure you, it is prophesied in The Scriptures.

Angelic Being

08-25-05, 08:19 PM

dalahar,

We all make mistakes. Besides, I think AB JAdon just noticed he has five toes on each of his feet that look an awful lot like atrophied fingers. That's why he's laughing maniacially...

Hapsburg,

Ok. I'll accept the The Christ™ thing as a title.

As an athlete I have to keep my toes healthy and in good condition.

Thanks for your concern however Uncle!!!!!

(Q)

08-25-05, 08:29 PM

As an athlete I have to keep my toes healthy and in good condition.

Ballet?

Angelic Being

08-25-05, 08:33 PM

As an athlete I have to keep my toes healthy and in good condition.

Ballet?

Whatever, as long as I keep my muscles primed and my body toned.

Thank You.

Clockwood

08-25-05, 08:38 PM

Haha. Yeah, they're far happier being extinct than they were sacrificing the odd person.
Not that I'm against wiping out aztecs mind you, but that was a funny statement.
The Aztec were certainly more civilized than Europe of the time, I can certainly say.

Angelic Being

08-25-05, 08:50 PM

The Aztec were certainly more civilized than Europe of the time, I can certainly say.

I am not sure if you can claim such a thing - perhaps it would depend on what you mean by 'civilised'.

Hapsburg

08-25-05, 09:36 PM

Whatever, as long as I keep my muscles primed and my body toned.

Thank You.
Boast and brag all you want, retardo, but this is the internet. No one believes you, you little lying parrot. Do us a favor, and leave.

superluminal

08-25-05, 09:40 PM

AB JAdon,

Why do you have toes? (I bet all he can give is a smartass answer. Watch and see...)

superluminal

08-25-05, 09:54 PM

First,

AB JAdon,

I have met the real messiah and he brings a message of truth to all of us. He tells us that Jesus was a liar. That he is the true messiah, and I believe him. We must spread his truth. Are you with me?

(Q)

08-25-05, 10:22 PM

Whatever, as long as I keep my muscles primed and my body toned.

You probably weigh 300 pounds.

SnakeLord

08-26-05, 03:08 PM

But not like you and your friend if you met on the street.

Sure, more like a telephone call perhaps.

Abraham kept his faith even though it was difficult. His wife Sarah didn't and she disbelieved God about having a son.

Sarah had no logical reason to... god hadn't spoken to her. She could only have 'faith' that what her husband told her was true, and not through the "knowledge" that Abraham actually had.

But his fear of the Lord proved that he would obey God on great pain.

I guess nobody bothered asking his son if he minded being the would-be victim. Well, we don't even need to guess.. The bible shows that Abraham kept the plan secret from him. All this so god could know that Abraham feared him, even though being omniscient god would already know that Abraham feared him.

Of course my only real problem here is that we all know, from life experience/history etc, that someone who wants you to fear him is really not worth knowing. Once you're in a relationship built upon fear it can certainly be hard to leave, (as is most often the case with battered wives), but I think we'd all agree it be best left well alone.

When I was in boot camp, I feared my drill sergeant. He was not out to harm us but his word was absolute law and he could be mean as a pit bull.

And if he told you to kill your son? While you could say there's a big difference between a drill sergeant and god, there's also a tremendous difference between making you do 50 push ups and making you murder your child.

If I was in that same position I would have to decline on grounds of personal morality. If god had an issue with that he wouldn't be worth my time.

I found that by the time I graduated boot camp, I highly respected and admired my drill sergeant.

Certainly - just like an abused wife often states she loves the man that's beating her senseless. But it is not the same as respect, admiration and love given willingly and freely.

I can both fear God for His power and love God for what He has done.

Which is what exactly? Seriously, what has he done?

God talks to all people.

I think it's quite safe to say you're mistaken. There are several billion people on the planet who have never been spoken to by this god of yours or are being spoken to by some different god/s.

Perhaps though you're stating that he either made our ears not work properly or that he's just a very quiet kind of god.

We live in a very difficult world.

Well I don't really agree. Sure, there is shit going on in the outside world - but in general I find life rather relaxed.

It may not be that God told those people to do those things.

And by saying so the very same could be true for Abraham and anyone else who claimed to have heard gods talk to them.

Maybe He was trying to keep them from doing crazy things...but they chose not to listen to Him.

That doesn't support the information. god told the woman to stone her sons to death, which is hardly trying to keep her from doing crazy things. And of course the bible fully supports the possibility of it. Not only do we have instances of god telling people to murder their children, (Abraham), but we also have god himself telling people to stone naughty sons to death, (Deut).

Jesus Christ changed all that. "Behold, I make all things new."