I do not no where to begin so I will just ask. I am having trouble understanding the process of evolution, especially concerning what makes it happen. What is evolution's origin? What makes it happen?

Thanks,
His Son,
><>Warrior61<><

It involves a repeating process like reproduction (with variations), and a selection force, like the environment.

The living thing that happens to be better suited to the environment is able to make more copies of itself, thus influencing successive generations.

The operative entity in evolution is the gene. It has no intentions, but becomes more or less prolific in proportion to the suitability of the machine it builds to reproduce itself in it's environment, which includes both the Earth, the body, and other genes.

I do not no where to begin so I will just ask. I am having trouble understanding the process of evolution, especially concerning what makes it happen. What is evolution's origin? What makes it happen?You should post this on the Biology & Genetics subforum. This is the wrong place.

I do not no where to begin so I will just ask. I am having trouble understanding the process of evolution, especially concerning what makes it happen. What is evolution's origin? What makes it happen?

Thanks,
His Son,
><>Warrior61<><

There is no origin and nothing 'makes it happen'.

What exactly don't you understand about the process ?

It involves a repeating process like reproduction (with variations), and a selection force, like the environment.

The living thing that happens to be better suited to the environment is able to make more copies of itself, thus influencing successive generations.

The operative entity in evolution is the gene. It has no intentions, but becomes more or less prolific in proportion to the suitability of the machine it builds to reproduce itself in it's environment, which includes both the Earth, the body, and other genes.

Where does the gene come from and what has given it the ability to act?

You should post this on the Biology & Genetics subforum. This is the wrong place.

Is Creationism also to be debated there instead of here? What criteria is there for threads in this forum?

There is no origin and nothing 'makes it happen'.

What exactly don't you understand about the process ?

How something as great as evolution can act and have no cause and how life has no origin. Enlighten me?

That you have posted this in the religion forum, that you have already mentioned creationism, and the nature of your avatar makes us highly suspicious of your motives. :bugeye: I doubt that you really want to learn any science but instead are looking to start the usual evolution-creation crap fest.

If I’m wrong and your intentions are genuine, then you would do well to go to a library and check out a beginner’s book on evolutionary theory. Asking internet forum participants to explain evolution rarely results in satisfactory answers and nearly always degenerates into the aforementioned crap fest full of misinformation.

Answer:

That's the amazing thing, it doesn't act at all. A gene never adapts itself. Sometimes, when it gets copied, it gets copied inaccurately, and those changes affect how often it gets copied in the future, due to the variability of the survival of the living machine that comes from it.

Where the gene comes from is a bit of a mystery, scientists think it may have come from RNA based life forms. The study of this is called abiogenesis.

That you have posted this in the religion forum, that you have already mentioned creationism, and the nature of your avatar makes us highly suspicious of your motives. :bugeye: I doubt that you really want to learn any science but instead are looking to start the usual evolution-creation crap fest.

If I’m wrong and your intentions are genuine, then you would do well to go to a library and check out a beginner’s book on evolutionary theory. Asking internet forum participants to explain evolution rarely results in satisfactory answers and nearly always degenerates into the aforementioned crap fest full of misinformation.

Judging by your avatar, and that you called the evolution-creation debate a crap fest makes me highly suspicious of your motives. I doubt that you really want to learn any religion but instead are looking to start the usual scientific big worded cruel remarks to make me look stupid.

Concerning the library and books who is to say that I haven't done that, or who is to say that you have read more on evolution than me? And out of curiosity if I ask you, an internet forum participant, to explain evolution to me will it result in a satisfactory answer?

My intentions are to learn where this world came from and how evolution started from people who believe it. Also the Religious have been debating the origination of the world a quite bit longer than the scientific. Even if we debate creationism vs evolution if you do not like it I suggest you do not look at it. God forbid you waste your time on a debate of the ignorant.

In biology, evolution is a change in a group of living things' traits from one generation to the next. Traits are things we can use to describe some living thing, like its height, eye colour, or having a certain bit of DNA, but traits that are directly caused by outside forces, such as having a scar or a certain haircut, do not count when looking at evolution. Evolution is said to have happened when some trait that is not directly caused by outside forces becomes more or less commonplace in a group.[1]

In a person's family, his or her grandparents are one generation. The parents, aunts, and uncles are another, and that person, and his or her brothers, sisters, and cousins, are a third. Even photographs of all these people at the same age would not show very many people who looked exactly the same. This is the fact of evolution: A family, like all groups of living things, is changing from generation to generation in small ways, and these changes can add up over many generations and lead to very big differences.

The theory of evolution tries to explain all the patterns found in the entire history of living things. One part of evolution that explains a lot of what we see is due to natural selection. Natural selection says that since children are not exactly like their parents, some of them might have a slight advantage that makes them better able to live where they live. Since they have an advantage, these ones are more likely to survive. Children are more like their parents than other unrelated individuals. So the ones with a slight advantage are likely to have children with a slight advantage, or might even end up with some children with a bigger advantage. After many generations in the same place, the great-great-great-great-etc. grandchildren are likely to be really good at living where they live.


MORE:

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

Answer:

That's the amazing thing, it doesn't act at all. A gene never adapts itself. Sometimes, when it gets copied, it gets copied inaccurately, and those changes affect how often it gets copied in the future, due to the variability of the survival of the living machine that comes from it.

Where the gene comes from is a bit of a mystery, scientists think it may have come from RNA based life forms. The study of this is called abiogenesis.


I understand the first part, my inquire is concerning the mystery that you speak of. If it came from RNA based life forms then where did those life forms come from. See what I am asking? Thank you so much for the assistance though.

It is proposed that the early Earth, being lifeless, accumulated organic chemistry in it's oceans, which, under deep sea pressures and volcanic heat, was saturated with dissolved minerals. Laboratory testing reveals that the chemical precursors to life are formed in conditions like the early Earth- lightning, ammonia in the atmosphere, water.

Due to the mere shape of some molecules, they can influence the kinds of combinations that occur within a system. We know this kind of action as a catalyst. A molecule made of more than one component can hold other examples of it's constituent components in place so that they react much more readily than if they depended on running into each other at random. When outcome is a copy of itself, it is known as a self-catalyzing reaction.

The copy then makes a copy, and the reaction grows exponentially. Each time a copy comes together, probably floating in the ocean, just by bumping into the required molecules, there is the possibility of error. Perhaps one of these errors is better at making copies of itself. That version becomes the most common. Given enough diversity, these molecules could find a parasitic strategy on other types, forming a situation that we know of as an "arms race". The more complex a molecule, the more possibility of errors, and thus the more probability that it will form a variation that can exploit all available resources, including others like itself, more effectively.

The outcome of this process were single celled structures that exploited the sun's energy to power themselves and copied themselves by dividing.

How those became you is the subject of evolution.

Warrior61:

Are you interested in evolution or the origins of life? Because the two things are quite separate questions.

It is proposed that the early Earth, being lifeless, accumulated organic chemistry in it's oceans, which, under deep sea pressures and volcanic heat, was saturated with dissolved minerals. Laboratory testing reveals that the chemical precursors to life are formed in conditions like the early Earth- lightning, ammonia in the atmosphere, water.

Due to the mere shape of some molecules, they can influence the kinds of combinations that occur within a system. We know this kind of action as a catalyst. A molecule made of more than one component can hold other examples of it's constituent components in place so that they react much more readily than if they depended on running into each other at random. When outcome is a copy of itself, it is known as a self-catalyzing reaction.

The copy then makes a copy, and the reaction grows exponentially. Each time a copy comes together, probably floating in the ocean, just by bumping into the required molecules, there is the possibility of error. Perhaps one of these errors is better at making copies of itself. That version becomes the most common. Given enough diversity, these molecules could find a parasitic strategy on other types, forming a situation that we know of as an "arms race". The more complex a molecule, the more possibility of errors, and thus the more probability that it will form a variation that can exploit all available resources, including others like itself, more effectively.

The outcome of this process were single celled structures that exploited the sun's energy to power themselves and copied themselves by dividing.

How those became you is the subject of evolution.

But how the earth and its water and lighting etc. got here is a mystery?

Warrior61:

Are you interested in evolution or the origins of life? Because the two things are quite separate questions.


What is evolution's origin? Not the theory/concept/idea of evolution.

What is evolution's origin? Not the theory/concept/idea of evolution.

The process of biological evolution is built into reality.

How something as great as evolution can act and have no cause and how life has no origin. Enlighten me?

First of all evolution is not a being, so it doesn't act.
I guess you call environmental pressure and gene variety the cause of evolution..
Who said life has no origin ??

Let me ask you this: have you actually at least tried to learn about evolution ?
You seem like a very biased person, and probably are just another theist looking for a fight.

But how the earth and its water and lighting etc. got here is a mystery?

Not so much. We have a pretty good idea how planets form, and what causes lightning. Water is very common in the universe.

What is evolution's origin? Not the theory/concept/idea of evolution.

Evolution's origin is encoded in the Bible for those who can understand,. I suggest you contact,
Father P.J O'Grady, SJ, at the Vatican

First of all evolution is not a being, so it doesn't act.
I guess you call environmental pressure and gene variety the cause of evolution..
Who said life has no origin ??

Let me ask you this: have you actually at least tried to learn about evolution ?
You seem like a very biased person, and probably are just another theist looking for a fight.


LoL You got me!!!!!! Im here looking for a fight!!! LoL yes I have studied buy I have yet to find anything on the origin of evolution. If you say its in that evolution is built into the world then my question is how did the world/universe get here. I am honestly not looking for a fight, I couldn't sleep the other night for about 3 hrs. pondering the origin of evolution. I haven't been to sciforums in a while so I thought I would come here for answers.

Some evolutionist believe everything started with the "big bang." Some just believe everything has been here. As a Christian if the Genesis account of the origin of the world is not true then my whole faith falls apart. As atheists if evolution and the explanation of the origin apart from a Creator is proven to be a fallacy then the same thing happens to them.

So how did evolution get here? Did a particle combust and evolution is a chain reaction, is everything in existence in existence because of evolution, is evolution just a component of the cosmos that like the cosmos has no origin?

The process of biological evolution is built into reality.

Only biological? So it has no origin? What, in your opinion, is the constant, non-originated thing in the universe?

Thanks, please do not take this as if i am attacking you.

Only biological?

You were referring to biological evolution so I made it an explicit statement.


So it has no origin?

It depends on how you are defining 'origin' and the result might show that you're not asking a coherent question. Regardless, the statement "it is built into reality" conveys the correct meaning.


What, in your opinion, is the constant, non-originated thing in the universe?

I don't quite understand what you are asking; however, if you are inquiring about features of the universe that are constant then I would say that it's what it inherited from reality... a presence of information that is consistent, persistent, and non-contradictory.


Thanks, please do not take this as if i am attacking you.

I don't.

Evolution describes the nature of cause and effect under certain conditions that I explained. If there is copying with variation (error), and some form of selection of the initial copying entity, then those entities will change over time.

The same principle can be put to work in computer programs. It has no existence of it's own, it's just a description of what happens in some kinds of systems.

As atheists if evolution and the explanation of the origin apart from a Creator is proven to be a fallacy then the same thing happens to them.
No, that is not correct. My trust in the ability of evolution to explain how complex life arose is not based on faith. If it were disproven, I would not be devastated, but rather fascinated by what actually happened.

Also, you equate belief in evolution with the big bang, they are separate explanations for separate things. Of course, they aren't really separate, but somewhat different rules and principles apply- Quantum dynamics rather than chemistry.

Hi folks,
Am I the only one who sees why this guy is here ? He's playing what he regardsas a clever game, What is the origin of a, x but what is the origin of x, b, but what is ...and so on ad nauseaum . Hell find everything he needs to support his ignorance on any one of a number of Creationist sites, where the truth is tailored to confirm the biblical account of things.

Only biological? So it has no origin? What, in your opinion, is the constant, non-originated thing in the universe?

Thanks, please do not take this as if i am attacking you.

Cut to the chase and tell us about god and Genesis. Then tell us the origin of god, as you seem so keen on asking about origins.

Hi folks,
Am I the only one who sees why this guy is here ? He's playing what he regardsas a clever game, What is the origin of a, x but what is the origin of x, b, but what is ...and so on ad nauseaum . Hell find everything he needs to support his ignorance on any one of a number of Creationist sites, where the truth is tailored to confirm the biblical account of things.

So what? Can't you answer a question without the attitude?

Yea man...hes just asking questions...chill.

Warrior1,

Evolution is simply all about change; whether biological evolution or otherwise. Its essential characteristic is one of undirected and unintentional change, although, if humans are involved in the process then some intentions become part of the process - e.g. the evolution of computers from the simple abacus to the modern day super computer. In this later case man has no idea where computers will end up but we do see that what they do does change over time.

Look at anything and everything around you, whether man made or not, and you will see that everything interacts and undergoes change. A piece of metal left in the open air will oxidize over time and produce new substances that will react with the environment. Earthquakes on the ocean floor and undersea volcanoes push up material that moves whole massive parts of the planet surface around, these in turn create mountains, etc.

At the microcosmic level of atoms and chemical compounds many elements combine and create new materials and quantities that in turn affect the environment or surroundings. Diamonds for example are made from carbon and so are we. But diamonds form from pressure and time.

All the time anything in the universe is in motion then interactions will occur and those interactions may or may not cause other interactions. At the subatomic level there are primal forces that attract or repel. From a casual look at the periodic table we can see how a vast number of very different and fascinating materials can be formed by the simple interactions of basic building blocks and the primal forces.

That biological entities formed should come as no surprise since the basic building block in biology is carbon and that particular element is one that can form more interactions with other elements than any other. Given the vast amount of motion that the universe creates and the high degree of interaction made possible via carbon then simple life was inevitable. And as we see with many chains of interactions simplicity grows into complexity through continual interactions.

There is nothing intentional about evolutionary processes, although now that man has evolved to a point where he understands what is happening then his future is very likely to evolve at an accelerated pace since he can now add elements of direction and intention to those underlying undirected processes.

As for origins in general, there can be no such thing as an origin. An origin implies a beginning and for any event to occur there would need to be something to initiate the event. That in turn requires that something existed before the beginning. That indicates an impossible infinite series.

The Big Bang is often posited as the beginning of the universe but modern versions of the theory simply view the BB as a point where matter was far denser than it is now. It is not that matter and energy was created at that point. As to its cause then that is unknown and theories about that are also quite prolific e.g. the cyclic idea of bang, expansion, collapse, implosion, bang, and the cycle repeats infinitely. Another theory posits that this BB is just one of an infinite number of concurrent BBs, just like bubbles in a soda pop bottle. Another perspective points out that there are serious flaws in BB theory and no such event ever took place.

What is a constant in everything we observe is that everything reacts and interacts and from such interactions change can occur. Sometimes these changes are constructive and sometimes destructive. What is also clear is that these changes are unintentional and undirected.

Evolution in all its forms has no beginning, and the question of how it began has no meaning; it is simply part of how the universe operates –

Evolution = motion -> interactions -> change.

Not so much. We have a pretty good idea how planets form, and what causes lightning. Water is very common in the universe.

My point exactly. The scientist may tell you about what he perceives, but not their origins. He may tell you of their origins within what he perceives, but he cannot tell you how existence itself came to be nor why it is here. He cannot define it for you. He cannot measure it for you.


Where did the materials needed to form the universe come from? And they? And they?

A Creator

Perhaps slightly off topic but your post was a prime example.

Norsefire,

Where did the materials needed to form the universe come from? And they? And they?

A CreatorOr the infinitely more obvious and infinitely more credible. They have always existed.

Why add the fantasy of something supernatural when no such explanation is needed or has any basis?

Why do we have the same tired arguments over how existence came to be? It always degenerates into overs simplified answers that really dont get anyone anywhere, all of existence is infinite in its scope, so I would assume that the reasons behind how it came to be or even what it really is are equally infinitely hard to understand. We lack the ability to really fathom what we call existence, so why argue about it when none of us really will ever know?

LoL You got me!!!!!! Im here looking for a fight!!! LoL yes I have studied buy I have yet to find anything on the origin of evolution. If you say its in that evolution is built into the world then my question is how did the world/universe get here. I am honestly not looking for a fight, I couldn't sleep the other night for about 3 hrs. pondering the origin of evolution. I haven't been to sciforums in a while so I thought I would come here for answers.
Ok, I apologize for insinuating that you were then. It's just obvious what your motives are when you ask these questions. You ask them with God in the back of your mind.

Some evolutionist believe everything started with the "big bang." Some just believe everything has been here.
We don't know how everything came to be, the big bang is just an explanation for the current state of everything. What was before that or if there was a before we don't know.

As a Christian if the Genesis account of the origin of the world is not true then my whole faith falls apart. As atheists if evolution and the explanation of the origin apart from a Creator is proven to be a fallacy then the same thing happens to them.
All you can do is look at the facts and make up your own mind.

So how did evolution get here? Did a particle combust and evolution is a chain reaction, is everything in existence in existence because of evolution, is evolution just a component of the cosmos that like the cosmos has no origin?
You see, this is why I asked if you studied evolution. That question just makes no sense. Evolution is not 'a thing', it's a process (or rather processes).

--

Short explanation:

There are three driving forces behind evolution: natural selection, genetic drift and gene-flow.

Natural selection is a process that favors traits that gives organisms a better chance for survival and reproduction.
A trait is an distinct observable quality of an organism that is the result of gene-expression.
So over the generations favorable heritable traits become more abundant in the population, while unfavorable heritable traits become less abundant.

Genetic drift is a random change in the gene frequencies of a population brought on by chance events. So if half of the population is somehow instantly destroyed it could be that some genes are more abundant in the surviving half of the population than the were in the original population.

Gene-flow is the exchange of genes between populations. If this is hindered in some way genetic differences have a greater chance of occurring between the populations. Or individuals of a population could join another population in so influence the gene pool.

My point exactly. The scientist may tell you about what he perceives, but not their origins. He may tell you of their origins within what he perceives, but he cannot tell you how existence itself came to be nor why it is here. He cannot define it for you. He cannot measure it for you.


Where did the materials needed to form the universe come from? And they? And they?

A Creator

Perhaps slightly off topic but your post was a prime example.

What are materials? They are mostly nothing aren't they? I do not deny that there appears to be a formative event, but was it separate from it's causes? Having an answer is not always preferrable or superior to not having one.

What is the difference between something and nothing?
What is the difference between a uniform infinity of solid, and a uniform infinity of nothingness?

Hi folks,
Am I the only one who sees why this guy is here ? He's playing what he regardsas a clever game, What is the origin of a, x but what is the origin of x, b, but what is ...and so on ad nauseaum . Hell find everything he needs to support his ignorance on any one of a number of Creationist sites, where the truth is tailored to confirm the biblical account of things.

If you answer his question you are pitting his perception of objective reality against the real thing. That's a good way for him to learn.

Having an answer is not always preferrable or superior to not having one.

Especially when the answer is based on exactly zilch.

What are materials? They are mostly nothing aren't they? I do not deny that there appears to be a formative event, but was it separate from it's causes? Having an answer is not always preferrable or superior to not having one.

What is the difference between something and nothing?
What is the difference between a uniform infinity of solid, and a uniform infinity of nothingness?

Our existence. There is gravity, magnetism, inertia, etc, but WHAT ARE THEY? How do you measure them? How do they exist? Where could they have come from if there was absolute nothing, if existence in itself is an impossibility. Until a scientist can show me, I choose to believe in a Creator. Whether it be Abrahamic God or a scientist examining us under a microscope, there was a creator in my opinion.

Warrior61:

What is evolution's origin? Not the theory/concept/idea of evolution.

Evolution occurs because resources are limited and living things compete for those limited resources. Only two things are needed for evolution: descent with variation, and natural selection. Given those, evolution is automatic.

If you say its in that evolution is built into the world then my question is how did the world/universe get here.

The universe started with the big bang. But that's a physics question that has nothing to do with evolution.

As a Christian if the Genesis account of the origin of the world is not true then my whole faith falls apart.

I'd be careful in basing your faith on such a shakey foundation.

Is it not obvious to you that the Genesis myth is at best an allegory? I mean, do you really believe in talking snakes, and that men have one less rib than women?


Norsefire:

Our existence. There is gravity, magnetism, inertia, etc, but WHAT ARE THEY? How do you measure them? How do they exist?

Look up any first-year undergraduate physics textbook to find the answers.

At some point, you need to take responsibility for your own education.

Where could they have come from if there was absolute nothing, if existence in itself is an impossibility.

Clearly, existence isn't an impossibility, because here we are.

Brain on. Think.

Until a scientist can show me, I choose to believe in a Creator.

Why is that the default?

So what? Can't you answer a question without the attitude?

If by attitude you mean a reluctance to be drawn into an infinite regress about the origin of the origin of the origin........ then I have an attitude. I. however, call it common sense.

Warrior61:




[QUOTE]Norsefire:



Look up any first-year undergraduate physics textbook to find the answers.

At some point, you need to take responsibility for your own education.
Will they tell me how they came to be or how they exist (as in, "run" in our universe? How does it work if there is no system to measure it? What is it if there is nothing? Nothing?
What is the origin of exisence? And how can you even think to have something......how can something be measured if there is not even nothing.



Clearly, existence isn't an impossibility, because here we are.

Brain on. Think.



Why is that the default?

Because that is the only plausible explanation. How do you know we are not in some test bubble, being examined by a far superior race? That we are not an experiment, inside a marble?
The mere fact that we exist on the realm we do, imo, proves something created our universe.........something that must have been created by outside influence (from a different realm of existence).

If you answer his question you are pitting his perception of objective reality against the real thing. That's a good way for him to learn.

You make a good but, if I may say so, an optimistic point. Do you seriously believe anyone can say anything that will make him change his outlook. If he were genuinely seeking information, your approach would be right and my attitude to him would be different. He has already said something to the effect that if Genesis were not true his faith would collapse. Do you honestly believe that answering his questions will cause him to doubt the bible ?

Why do we have the same tired arguments over how existence came to be? It always degenerates into overs simplified answers that really dont get anyone anywhere, all of existence is infinite in its scope, so I would assume that the reasons behind how it came to be or even what it really is are equally infinitely hard to understand. We lack the ability to really fathom what we call existence, so why argue about it when none of us really will ever know?

The answer is that the jury is still out. We do not know.Why does anyone have a problem admitting that ?

[QUOTE=James R;1782270]Warrior61:





Will they tell me how they came to be or how they exist (as in, "run" in our universe? How does it work if there is no system to measure it? What is it if there is nothing? Nothing?
What is the origin of exisence? And how can you even think to have something......how can something be measured if there is not even nothing.





Because that is the only plausible explanation. How do you know we are not in some test bubble, being examined by a far superior race? That we are not an experiment, inside a marble?

The mere fact that we exist on the realm we do, imo, proves something created our universe.........something that must have been created by outside influence (from a different realm of existence).

What you suggest is not an answer; you are simply speculating and pushing the question back a stage. How did the "outside influence" come into existence ?

[QUOTE=Norsefire;1782288][/COLOR]

What you suggest is not an answer; you are simply speculating and pushing the question back a stage. How did the "outside influence" come into existence ?

I have no idea. But I also have no doubt of its existence.
Remember, this outside influence would likely not be on our plane of existence, and therefore is perhaps not bound by our laws. However, when taken into account as a whole, existence itself is the largest mystery in existence.

You make a good but, if I may say so, an optimistic point. Do you seriously believe anyone can say anything that will make him change his outlook. If he were genuinely seeking information, your approach would be right and my attitude to him would be different. He has already said something to the effect that if Genesis were not true his faith would collapse. Do you honestly believe that answering his questions will cause him to doubt the bible ?

Sure why not? There have been other theistic members whom were influenced by reality. As long as a person has a reasonable criteria for rejecting supersition in favor of truth, there is a motivation for that person to value truth above an psychological / emotional satiation provided by supersitious belief.

Sure why not? There have been other theistic members whom were influenced by reality. As long as a person has a reasonable criteria for rejecting supersition in favor of truth, there is a motivation for that person to value truth above an psychological / emotional satiation provided by supersitious belief.

As I said, one may explain the how the universe works and what it contains......but not its origins. I believe God is real, and that the did create the Universe (13.7 billion years ago in our time) with its own set of laws. But I do believe that, even while Nature may play the effect now, God did create the Universe.


And what "truth"?
Here is a scenario: assuming God is real, what if He specifically created these illusions of science in order to tell who is faithful and who is not?

Norsefire:

Will they tell me how they came to be or how they exist (as in, "run" in our universe?

In physics, there are many very deep understandings of why certain laws exist. Some of them are quite surprising. For example, the law of conservation of energy turns out to be required by time invariance - the fact that if you perform the same scientific experiment at two different times, the mere fact that you did it at two different times shouldn't alter the outcome.

How does it work if there is no system to measure it? What is it if there is nothing? Nothing?
What is the origin of exisence? And how can you even think to have something......how can something be measured if there is not even nothing.

What you're asking here is the age-old question "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

You think the reason is God, but you have no scientific evidence for that. There are alternative explanations, and the question is still open. Instead of keeping an open mind, you've obviously decided you already know the answer, by some irrational process of "faith".

Because that is the only plausible explanation.

No. It's just the only explanation you know something about. You probably don't understand the scientific explanation of the big bang, so you prefer to fall back on an ancient myth that you can understand.

How do you know we are not in some test bubble, being examined by a far superior race? That we are not an experiment, inside a marble?

I don't know. And neither do you.

The mere fact that we exist on the realm we do, imo, proves something created our universe.

No. It proves the universe came into existence somehow. That's all. The rest is just your extrapolation.

[QUOTE=Myles;1782302]

I have no idea. But I also have no doubt of its existence.
Remember, this outside influence would likely not be on our plane of existence, and therefore is perhaps not bound by our laws. However, when taken into account as a whole, existence itself is the largest mystery in existence.

Well, can you see that if you " have no idea", you have no reason to believe as you do. Why not settle, as I do, for admitting that we just don't know at present. We may never know.

Sure why not? There have been other theistic members whom were influenced by reality. As long as a person has a reasonable criteria for rejecting supersition in favor of truth, there is a motivation for that person to value truth above an psychological / emotional satiation provided by supersitious belief.

Well, I cannot say you are wrong but in all my years I have never come across a case of a person of faith being swayed by evidence contrary to what he believes.

Well, I cannot say you are wrong but in all my years I have never come across a case of a person of faith being swayed by evidence contrary to what he believes.

Check out SouthStar, he was a bible thumper until he came to this site.

As I said, one may explain the how the universe works and what it contains......but not its origins.

You mean before our universe inflated? While we don't know the answer now, science is making progress on that topic. Science is also modeling what may be outside of our universe and all information strongly suggests a reality which always exists.


I believe God is real, and that the did create the Universe (13.7 billion years ago in our time) with its own set of laws. But I do believe that, even while Nature may play the effect now, God did create the Universe.

If you learn about Anthropomoprhism, you will understand why you believe this and will understand that an gap of knowledge or identity being filled with 'God' is an irrational substitution.


And what "truth"?

Conformity between concept in the mind to actual reality.


Here is a scenario: assuming God is real, what if He specifically created these illusions of science in order to tell who is faithful and who is not?

The notion isn't coherent. Assuming an omnipotent life form exists, there is no rational reason it would use reality to deceive humans in an effort to understand who accepts its existence as true without supportive evidence and with contradictory evidence.

Since there was no response to my post (33), I decided to repost it:

Short explanation:

There are three driving forces behind evolution: natural selection, genetic drift and gene-flow.

Natural selection is a process that favors traits that gives organisms a better chance for survival and reproduction.
A trait is an distinct observable quality of an organism that is the result of gene-expression.
So over the generations favorable heritable traits become more abundant in the population, while unfavorable heritable traits become less abundant.

Genetic drift is a random change in the gene frequencies of a population brought on by chance events. So if half of the population is somehow instantly destroyed it could be that some genes are more abundant in the surviving half of the population than the were in the original population.

Gene-flow is the exchange of genes between populations. If this is hindered in some way genetic differences have a greater chance of occurring between the populations. Or individuals of a population could join another population in so influence the gene pool.

Check out SouthStar, he was a bible thumper until he came to this site.

I hear what you say but cannot help wondering how commited he was to his earlier beliefs, Nonetheless, you have made your point. It's nice to be proved wrong in this instance.

Now , if only you could get Adstar to changes his ways, I woulde buy you a year's supply of whisky, or whatever your tipple is.

As I said, one may explain the how the universe works and what it contains......but not its origins. I believe God is real, and that the did create the Universe (13.7 billion years ago in our time) with its own set of laws. But I do believe that, even while Nature may play the effect now, God did create the Universe.


Interesting, how do you suppose we learn more about this creator?

You mean before our universe inflated? While we don't know the answer now, science is making progress on that topic. Science is also modeling what may be outside of our universe and all information strongly suggests a reality which always exists.
Science can certainly make progress, but I think there is no doubt the universe was somehow created: either via a natural force (of which then would be impossible, because natural forces would need to be created), or more likely because of that a God.



If you learn about Anthropomoprhism, you will understand why you believe this and will understand that an gap of knowledge or identity being filled with 'God' is an irrational substitution.
It isn't. I believe as I do because of the mere fact that I exist........when existence cannot be defined or measured, how can I exist? But I do, therefore I was created.




The notion isn't coherent. Assuming an omnipotent life form exists, there is no rational reason it would use reality to deceive humans in an effort to understand who accepts its existence as true without supportive evidence and with contradictory evidence.

There is plenty reason. He could wish to see who is faithful and who is not.

Secondly, while I myself am not very religious, I do believe Faith is an extremely important aspect of society as it gives identity, morality, it gives anticipation and goals, and it gives you something to live for. For all we know, God is very real.
And lastly, again, how did existence come into existence when even nothing did not exist?

Norsefire:



In physics, there are many very deep understandings of why certain laws exist. Some of them are quite surprising. For example, the law of conservation of energy turns out to be required by time invariance - the fact that if you perform the same scientific experiment at two different times, the mere fact that you did it at two different times shouldn't alter the outcome.
Again, you are missing the point. That law defines something which is already present, but does not explain its origin or how it exists.
Where is energy? How did energy be created and how was it then measured as existing? What is energy (not in the sense of what it is in our universe, but as a universal force, how does it exist?), Why is there energy? Existence?

The scientist may explain how that around him works, but not how or why it exists. He may tell you interesting facts, but he cannot tell you their origin or how they are.



What you're asking here is the age-old question "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

You think the reason is God, but you have no scientific evidence for that. There are alternative explanations, and the question is still open. Instead of keeping an open mind, you've obviously decided you already know the answer, by some irrational process of "faith".
For me there is no doubt there is a Creator. And "faith" is only good.



No. It's just the only explanation you know something about. You probably don't understand the scientific explanation of the big bang, so you prefer to fall back on an ancient myth that you can understand.
Sure I do. Time and space were squeezed together or whatever and they formed our universe, which expanded from there and hydrogen atoms were the first and all that rubbish

However, keep in mind my question, even for that explanation, is: where did space and time originate and how did they exist? Hydrgen atoms?

The concept of hydrogen existing when it could not even be defined nor could it have originated from a former suggests two things 1) hydrogen originated from absolute nothing, which is ridiculous or 2) A Creator created our universe

Furthermore, to have hydrogen where there is no such thing is like looking for a lost ruin when you have no senses.



I don't know. And neither do you.



No. It proves the universe came into existence somehow. That's all. The rest is just your extrapolation.
The only plausible explanation (where stuff does not simply "pop up") is a Creator

So, how did the creator pop up ?

I thought this was about evolution.. I suggest the religious trolls get out of here :bugeye:

So, how did the creator pop up ?

Again, the Creator would not have been on our realm of existence, and therefore would not be bound by our laws. However, if we are to think like that, it would make existence an impossibility, and raises more questions: what is existence? Why do we exist? How do we exist? Where do we exist and how are we measuring that?

Would there be existence without conciousness?

If there is more than one "realm of existence", it should be considered part of our own, unless there is no intersection whatsoever, which there is. It's basically a way to avoid the issue. You invent a non-intersecting space, and say the laws don't apply there, so you can't ask how THAT got there.

Science can describe the universe to within a microsecond of it's formation. If it can't describe what went before that, perhaps that is because no evidence remains. That makes it more difficult for you to show a reason why any kind of complex being existed before that.

If there is more than one "realm of existence", it should be considered part of our own, unless there is no intersection whatsoever, which there is. It's basically a way to avoid the issue. You invent a non-intersecting space, and say the laws don't apply there, so you can't ask how THAT got there.

Science can describe the universe to within a microsecond of it's formation. If it can't describe what went before that, perhaps that is because no evidence remains. That makes it more difficult for you to show a reason why any kind of complex being existed before that.

However, it also shows that something must have lead to the formation of our universe; I believe that to be God.

If the baby universe is God, then so am I.

The living thing that happens to be better suited to the environment is able to make more copies of itself, thus influencing successive generations.

Though not necessarily true. Disadvantageous traits can go to fixation, given drift.

Effective populations of invertebrates, plants, and vertebrates are estimated to be around one to two hundred thousand from heterozygosity calculations, which is far smaller than the infinite population required for your statement to hold true for all cases.

Natural selection isn't always the explanation for why a trait persists in a population. Sometimes, it's just chance.

I hear what you say but cannot help wondering how commited he was to his earlier beliefs, Nonetheless, you have made your point. It's nice to be proved wrong in this instance.

Now , if only you could get Adstar to changes his ways, I woulde buy you a year's supply of whisky, or whatever your tipple is.

Adstar unfortunately doesn't appear to be influencible with truth. That is, if every word in the bible was conclusively proven false he would still believe. It's a natural human behavior to value psychological needs above truth and Adstar is an extreme example of it.

Science can certainly make progress, but I think there is no doubt the universe was somehow created: either via a natural force (of which then would be impossible, because natural forces would need to be created), or more likely because of that a God.

All models of what's 'outside' or 'before' our universe show a vast reality which is essentially an eternal everchanging presence of information. Time appears to be something specific to our universe so its hard to imagine something as being eternal in the absence of time. The most probable resolution of course is that not all change requires time.


It isn't. I believe as I do because of the mere fact that I exist........when existence cannot be defined or measured, how can I exist? But I do, therefore I was created.
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And lastly, again, how did existence come into existence when even nothing did not exist?


How you can exist is a well known process of evolution. How existence can exist isn't necessarily a valid question. It might be better to ask the question: can 'nothing' (i.e. the absence of anything) exist? Clearly there are no instances of 'nothing' that anyone can point to; thus, suggesting that 'something' must always exist.



There is plenty reason. He could wish to see who is faithful and who is not.

That's equivalent to searching for the stupid people so he can reward them. There would be no rational motivation for it.


Secondly, while I myself am not very religious, I do believe Faith is an extremely important aspect of society as it gives identity, morality, it gives anticipation and goals, and it gives you something to live for.

Faith serves as a substitute for personal identity and can improve your chance of survival if you believe there is a threat and take action to protect yourself (regardless of whether or not the threat is real or not). Morality is culturally influenced and genetically rooted in the primary question humans use to judge each other: "is that person mean?". Humans are genetically prone to want to persist and that's the genetic root of having something to live for.



For all we know, God is very real.


While the concept of a generic 'God' might have equal probability of existing as the zaboombafoo dimension, any specific human claims of a 'God' existing are demonstrably false.

Norsefire:

Again, you are missing the point. That law defines something which is already present, but does not explain its origin or how it exists.

And saying "God make it exist" only pushes the question back one step, so we then need to ask "Why does God exist?" instead of "What does this law exist?"

God gets us nowhere in this inquiry.

The scientist may explain how that around him works, but not how or why it exists. He may tell you interesting facts, but he cannot tell you their origin or how they are.

The scientist's explanations are a hundred times more helpful and informative than the imam's. With religion, everything is reduced to "God must have done it. We don't know how, and we don't need to know. All we need to know about it God."

If the answer to everything you don't know is "God did it" or "God caused it" or "God wants it" or "It's God's plan", then you have no agency in the world. You might as well just curl up and let God do what he wants with you, because you'll never really know anything.

The only plausible explanation (where stuff does not simply "pop up") is a Creator

But stuff simply "pops up" with a Creator, too. The Creator is supposed to just will stuff to exist, and there it is. How is that a better explanation for where stuff came from than formation out of nothing?

Compare: "God created the universe" to "Nothing created the universe". How could we tell the difference by looking at the universe?

The scientist's explanations are a hundred times more heelpful and informative than the imam's. With religion, everything is reduced to "God must have done it. We don't know how, and we don't need to know. All we need to know about it God."

This is exaggerated.
Believing God created universe, doesn't prevent the quest of how this universe come into existing.

If the answer to everything you don't know is "God did it" or "God caused it" or "God wants it" or "It's God's plan", then you have no agency in the world. You might as well just curl up and let God do what he wants with you, because you'll never really know anything.

Another exaggerated and too simplistic assumption you made on people believing in God.