View Full Version : Evolution of metamorphosis


arauca
10-13-11, 11:13 AM
The life of Caterpillar and butterfly is explained by Darwin's evolution

spidergoat
10-13-11, 11:53 AM
You can just say evolution, or neo-Darwinism, but that's correct.

Believe
10-13-11, 01:26 PM
Did you mean to say its not explained by it? Otherwise this is a no brainer thread bound for the cesspool.

arauca
10-13-11, 01:39 PM
Did you mean to say its not explained by it? Otherwise this is a no brainer thread bound for the cesspool.

Sorry don't know what you mean ,


The problem here , there is a discontinuity . The caterpillar dies and the becomes a rebirth into a butterfly

spidergoat
10-13-11, 01:42 PM
No it doesn't die.

arauca
10-13-11, 01:49 PM
No it doesn't die.

So what happened ? what is the process I am not familiar . I jest know there is a discontinuity

spidergoat
10-13-11, 01:53 PM
Here you go then. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=evolution+of+metamorphosis)

Hercules Rockefeller
10-13-11, 06:09 PM
So what happened ? what is the process I am not familiar.

Metamorphosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphosis)

arauca
10-13-11, 07:18 PM
Metamorphosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphosis)

Great , so how does that firs with Darwin evolution theory ?

billvon
10-13-11, 07:38 PM
Great , so how does that firs with Darwin evolution theory ?

Metamorphosis allows one organism to fit two different niches. In the case of caterpillar vs butterfly, the organism gets all the benefits of a low energy leaf-eater (fast-growing, durable, ready food supply, not much wasted energy) AND all the benefits of a high-energy flying organism (different food supply, ability to lay eggs in protected places far, far away.) This is a big survival advantage, so the trait is retained.

spidergoat
10-13-11, 08:42 PM
It fits Darwin's theory because we can outline a gradual step by step process by which it could evolve, based on the fossil record and existing species, which retain some of the same traits in a more primitive form.

Hercules Rockefeller
10-13-11, 08:53 PM
Great , so how does that firs with Darwin evolution theory ?


*sigh*

It seems like a self-evident thing to say, but......

There is a wealth of scientific information out there on the internet. Sixty seconds worth of searching revealed these relevant scientific* articles. Further searching will reveal even more. (Some are not free, but if you’re serious about learning you can either (i) pay for the online version, or (ii) go to a library and photocopy the articles.)

Origin and Evolution of Insect Metamorphosis
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9780470015902.a0022854/full

The evolution of amphibian metamorphosis: insights based on the transformation of the aortic arches of Pelobates fuscus (Anura)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2100297/

The Origins and Evolution of Vertebrate Metamorphosis
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(11)00831-1

Evolution of metamorphosis: role of environment on expression of mutant nuclear receptors and other signal-transduction proteins
http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/content/46/6/808.abstract

The origins of insect metamorphosis
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v401/n6752/full/401447a0.html


---------------------
* I stress “scientific” sources because, as with most evolutionary topics, idiot creationists have bastardized and corrupted the topic to fit their pre-determined non-scientistic viewpoint. Be wary of where you get your information from.

arauca
10-13-11, 10:00 PM
Metamorphosis allows one organism to fit two different niches. In the case of caterpillar vs butterfly, the organism gets all the benefits of a low energy leaf-eater (fast-growing, durable, ready food supply, not much wasted energy) AND all the benefits of a high-energy flying organism (different food supply, ability to lay eggs in protected places far, far away.) This is a big survival advantage, so the trait is retained.




Well I just took as if caterpillar and a butterfly are like different specie , are they not? we know they look different ?

drumbeat
10-13-11, 11:17 PM
So do babies and adults, but they are not different species.
Caterpillars are the laval form of the butterfly.

James R
10-13-11, 11:34 PM
Well I just took as if caterpillar and a butterfly are like different specie , are they not? we know they look different ?

Not only are they not different species, but they are the exact same individual.

A caterpillar doesn't evolve into a butterfly. It metamorphoses.

arauca
10-14-11, 10:12 AM
So do babies and adults, but they are not different species.
Caterpillars are the laval form of the butterfly.



Call them what ever you want , they are different ,babe is human and an adult is human babe walk adult don't fly . Caterpillar don't fly butterfly.
You can argue any way you want they are different, The only thing I want ask is how can you explain evolution in this case , and not using a fancy word metamorphosis.

arauca
10-14-11, 10:14 AM
Not only are they not different species, but they are the exact same individual.

A caterpillar doesn't evolve into a butterfly.

That is closer to what I ask.

drumbeat
10-14-11, 10:40 AM
Think of it as growing up, not evolving. A Caterpillar is a child and when it hits puberty it turns into a butterfly.

There isn't really a simpler way to say it.

wellwisher
10-14-11, 10:54 AM
Most critters have way more genes then they use. The caterpillar begins its life using one part of its entire genes. The metamorphosis shuts off some genes and turns on others. The net result is it uses more genes over its life.

Evolution already implies the same answer for everything. Science that is conducted to support evolution, will make use of this template even before the investigation begins. This is why they all sound the same. The butterfly does not fit the template in quite the same way.

Caterpillars can defoliate large areas. Their metamorphosis into a butterfly will not lower their stress on an ecosystem, but also allows the caterpillars of the future to move their eating show to another fresh location in record time.

The caterpillars, if they did not change, might strip an area of leaves, leading to their own demise. They will no longer be as hidden from birds and could run out of food. By becoming a butterfly, they are able to relocate far enough away to get fresh food, while allowing the stripped area to regrow. As the butterfly they also change their diet into nectar and help pollinate to make up for their destruction.

billvon
10-14-11, 11:59 AM
It fits Darwin's theory because we can outline a gradual step by step process by which it could evolve, based on the fossil record and existing species, which retain some of the same traits in a more primitive form.

Sure.

First step - single life stage without shedding. (i.e. ants.) They are hatched with the same basic form, then grow as soft, weak insects, then their exoskeleton hardens and they cannot grow any longer.

Second - single life stage with shedding (i.e. some beetles.) They are hatched small, and a hard shell forms almost immediately. When they get too big for their skin they shed it and get larger. This has evolutionary advantages - they can form hard protective shells right away, are stronger right away, and can still grow to be bigger and stronger.

Third - multiple life stages with shedding. (Dragonflies.) These are hatched small and immediately form a hard shell for protection. They then moult once, and during that moult, get larger _and_ slightly change their form as new features grow. Dragonflies grow wings, for example. This is a big advantage since the egg doesn't have to contain enough energy to grow the wings at first; the nymph can eat to get enough energy to moult.

Fourth - metamorphosis. As the organism evolves, the change from nymph to adult becomes more and more drastic, and takes longer and longer. Nymphs that just stop moving while that long final moult happens get eaten, so there is an evolutionary advantage to protecting yourself during that time (digging a burrow, making a cocoon.)

origin
10-14-11, 02:05 PM
Sure.

First step - single life stage without shedding. (i.e. ants.) They are hatched with the same basic form, then grow as soft, weak insects, then their exoskeleton hardens and they cannot grow any longer.



Actually I think ants do go through a complete metamorphosis. About 90% of the insects go through a complete metamorphosis.

arauca
10-14-11, 03:28 PM
Sure.

First step - single life stage without shedding. (i.e. ants.) They are hatched with the same basic form, then grow as soft, weak insects, then their exoskeleton hardens and they cannot grow any longer.

Second - single life stage with shedding (i.e. some beetles.) They are hatched small, and a hard shell forms almost immediately. When they get too big for their skin they shed it and get larger. This has evolutionary advantages - they can form hard protective shells right away, are stronger right away, and can still grow to be bigger and stronger.

Third - multiple life stages with shedding. (Dragonflies.) These are hatched small and immediately form a hard shell for protection. They then moult once, and during that moult, get larger _and_ slightly change their form as new features grow. Dragonflies grow wings, for example. This is a big advantage since the egg doesn't have to contain enough energy to grow the wings at first; the nymph can eat to get enough energy to moult.

Fourth - metamorphosis. As the organism evolves, the change from nymph to adult becomes more and more drastic, and takes longer and longer. Nymphs that just stop moving while that long final moult happens get eaten, so there is an evolutionary advantage to protecting yourself during that time (digging a burrow, making a cocoon.)




It is simple explanation . It is no different " what ever will be will be "
What is you simple explanation for the Monarch butterfly , They die in the process to make a round trip from Canada to Mexico , then all the way to Canada and no death in bet ween

spidergoat
10-14-11, 03:44 PM
Are you trying to say the phenomenon is irreducibly complex? Because if you can break it down into gradual steps, which each step providing a incremental benefit, then evolution can get you there.

origin
10-14-11, 03:45 PM
It is simple explanation . It is no different " what ever will be will be "
What is you simple explanation for the Monarch butterfly , They die in the process to make a round trip from Canada to Mexico , then all the way to Canada and no death in bet ween

Huh?

billvon
10-14-11, 03:50 PM
It is simple explanation .

Why thank you!


What is you simple explanation for the Monarch butterfly , They die in the process to make a round trip from Canada to Mexico , then all the way to Canada and no death in bet ween

Migration in general is driven by lack of food as a population expands.

Stage 1: Organisms all live in an ideal climate (for them.) They expand until they start to run out of food. They start to die.

Stage 2: A few hardy individuals go north in summer when it's warm enough to do so to feed, and return when it gets too cold. They survive better than the organisms that do not, so the "wanderlust" to go north in summer becomes part of their genetic code.

Stage 3: The new requirements on the organism (better legs/wings, more fat stores due to more food eaten and longer travel times) causes rapid evolution of some traits.

Stage 4: The migratory organisms speciate from the stay-in-one-place organisms due to the significant genetic changes required, and a new migratory species is born, one with an instinct to go north in the summer, south in the winter.

billvon
10-14-11, 04:32 PM
Actually I think ants do go through a complete metamorphosis. About 90% of the insects go through a complete metamorphosis.

You're right; an aphid would have been a better example.

RichW9090
10-28-11, 05:24 PM
William Diller Matthew (1871 - 1930) wrote a wonderful little book in 1915 called Climate and Evolution. Matthew saw climate as the primary cause or engine of evolution, and after all these years, he is still right. Since climate largely determines vegetation, and vegetation is at the base of the food chain for animals, it follows right through, including Monarch butterflies and their migration.

Rich

spidergoat
10-28-11, 05:25 PM
And vegetation determines climate, so it's a nice closed circle.

RichW9090
10-28-11, 05:28 PM
No, vegetation doesn't determine climate - grander scale phenomena, such as the earths rotation, tilt, the confuguration of the continests and of the oceanic circulation determine climate.

Climate is described by the sort of vegetation an area supports (desert, tundra, rain-forest, etc) but the vegetation is a result of the climate, not a cause of it.

Rich

spidergoat
10-28-11, 05:33 PM
Without plants, there would be no oxygen in our atmosphere, so I think it has a significant effect.

Fraggle Rocker
10-29-11, 06:57 PM
Actually I think ants do go through a complete metamorphosis. About 90% of the insects go through a complete metamorphosis.Yes, ants go through complete metamorphosis. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant#Development_and_reproduction)

RichW9090
10-30-11, 10:20 PM
Spidergoat, I think I see where you are coming from, but remember, the oxygen content of the air does not differ anywhere on earth, no matter what the climate, or the elevation, or the latitude. It is the same everywhere - so oxygen, at the present time, has no determinative effect on climate.

Rich

superstring01
10-30-11, 10:51 PM
Yes, ants go through complete metamorphosis. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant#Development_and_reproduction)

Aunts. Bees. Wasps. All vespids.

The caterpillar stage didn't always used to be a free ranging insect. It used to be the "thing" that hatched from the egg and was fed by the parent (like wasps). In the case of moths and butterflies, through gradual steps in evolution, the "worm" stage increased in time and ability. It developed eyes and digestive abilities that allowed it to roam away from the nest and find it's own and scavenge for food. Whereas with flies, wasps, bees and ants never escape the next in the worm stage, in the case of butterflies and moths, the worm is a lot more independent. Eventually, though, it goes through the same pupal phase and becomes the adult.

~String

420Joey
10-31-11, 03:59 PM
If an insect migrates how is it written in its genetic code if its advantageous?? Like imprints could just be created like that and affect all of its species?

Dywyddyr
10-31-11, 04:04 PM
Aunts. Bees. Wasps. All vespids.
But not uncles?

billvon
10-31-11, 05:11 PM
No, vegetation doesn't determine climate

It does actually have a pretty significant (though not overwhelming) effect overall. Forests create their own weather; they cool and humidify the air, resulting in higher water retention, higher transpiration rates and more rain downwind of them.

Pete
10-31-11, 08:59 PM
If an insect migrates how is it written in its genetic code if its advantageous??
It's not.

An insect's genetic code might give an insect a tendency to migrate (eg a tendency to move toward the mid day sun when the weather is cooling).

If the insect's genetic code makes it do something advantageous, then the insect is more likely to survive and pass on its genetic code to its offspring.

If the insect's genetic code makes it do something disadvantageous, then the insect is less likely to survive and pass on its genetic code to its offspring.

So, advantageous genetic codes tend to proliferate, while disavantageous genetic codes tend to disappear.

Fraggle Rocker
11-01-11, 08:17 AM
So, advantageous genetic codes tend to proliferate, while disavantageous genetic codes tend to disappear.We see that happening today, right here in the northeastern United States.

For all eternity, the most important survival traits for deer were speed and agility: the ability to elude predators. But then the Americans took over the continent and killed off all the deer's predators. Predation is no longer a major threat to a deer's survival. Instead, the major threat is auto traffic. No matter how fast a deer can run, he can't outrun a car. And agility--the ability to change direction quickly--is not just not an advantage, but it's actually a disadvantage. Drivers would much prefer not to hit a deer (take my word for it, a year ago one did $7,000 damage to my truck), but if the deer runs in a zigzag pattern, he's hard to steer around.

So the deer with their time-tested survival traits are now less likely to survive and pass on their DNA to the next generation. A few deer are occasionally born with above-average intelligence. They have the ability to survey their surroundings and make reasoned decisions about it. They see the cars moving in a straight line and never going over the edge of the highway. They see drivers slowing down to avoid hitting people, dogs, cats and raccoons. They see large groups of humans--even tiny children--walking blithely across busy streets in a pattern that seems to be synchronized with the little red and green lights above the intersections. They understand that new methods are required for survival and they develop them. Those genes are passed down to the next generation.

In each generation of deer, the average speed and agility are a little less than they were before, but the average intelligence is higher. Today we see deer calmly grazing on the strip of grass next to the highway, with their antlers not quite sticking out into the traffic, confident that the cars will stay on the pavement.

More astoundingly, many people (including myself) report seeing deer standing on the curb at a crosswalk, waiting for the pedestrian signal to turn green, and then calmly walking across the street with the humans.

They have even figured out that most dogs, at some time in their ancestry, were trained to guard livestock rather than killing it. Back home in California, the deer jump over the fence into our yard at night, knowing that our dogs will do their best to protect them from the bears and cougars.

With each generation, the stupid, fast-running deer die off and the slower, smarter ones live to reproduce. The average strength and speed of the species is declining, but the average IQ is rising.

origin
11-01-11, 08:37 AM
More astoundingly, many people (including myself) report seeing deer standing on the curb at a crosswalk, waiting for the pedestrian signal to turn green, and then calmly walking across the street with the humans.

I find that EXTREMELY hard to believe. It would make more sense that the deer cross the road when the cars stop instead of them using the cross walk signal.

Walter L. Wagner
11-03-11, 08:08 AM
We see that happening today, right here in the northeastern United States.

For all eternity, the most important survival traits for deer were speed and agility: the ability to elude predators. But then the Americans took over the continent and killed off all the deer's predators. Predation is no longer a major threat to a deer's survival. Instead, the major threat is auto traffic. No matter how fast a deer can run, he can't outrun a car. And agility--the ability to change direction quickly--is not just not an advantage, but it's actually a disadvantage. Drivers would much prefer not to hit a deer (take my word for it, a year ago one did $7,000 damage to my truck), but if the deer runs in a zigzag pattern, he's hard to steer around.

So the deer with their time-tested survival traits are now less likely to survive and pass on their DNA to the next generation. A few deer are occasionally born with above-average intelligence. They have the ability to survey their surroundings and make reasoned decisions about it. They see the cars moving in a straight line and never going over the edge of the highway. They see drivers slowing down to avoid hitting people, dogs, cats and raccoons. They see large groups of humans--even tiny children--walking blithely across busy streets in a pattern that seems to be synchronized with the little red and green lights above the intersections. They understand that new methods are required for survival and they develop them. Those genes are passed down to the next generation.

In each generation of deer, the average speed and agility are a little less than they were before, but the average intelligence is higher. Today we see deer calmly grazing on the strip of grass next to the highway, with their antlers not quite sticking out into the traffic, confident that the cars will stay on the pavement.

More astoundingly, many people (including myself) report seeing deer standing on the curb at a crosswalk, waiting for the pedestrian signal to turn green, and then calmly walking across the street with the humans.

They have even figured out that most dogs, at some time in their ancestry, were trained to guard livestock rather than killing it. Back home in California, the deer jump over the fence into our yard at night, knowing that our dogs will do their best to protect them from the bears and cougars.

With each generation, the stupid, fast-running deer die off and the slower, smarter ones live to reproduce. The average strength and speed of the species is declining, but the average IQ is rising.

I suspect that the behavior might be changing, but that that is learned. I doubt that there has been much genetic change in a few generations; how long did it take to domesticate wolves into dogs - many many generations, right?

Fraggle Rocker
11-03-11, 12:37 PM
I find that EXTREMELY hard to believe. It would make more sense that the deer cross the road when the cars stop instead of them using the cross walk signal.I've seen it personally and it's become a regular feature of life in Washington--one of those little things that give a city its charm. The problem with your suggestion is that they don't have the math processor to calculate whether a car half a block away is going to stop--or is even capable of stopping. Vehicles are not as nimble as predatory animals, but they move, accelerate and decelerate much faster. The deer don't have the necessary intuition to base calculations on that. Even if there are no human pedestrians around, they understand that cars are far more likely to stop at a crosswalk than anywhere else, and even more likely to do that if the little green light is on.

Perhaps more to the point, waiting for cars to stop, even when the pedestrian light is on, can be a vain hope. If there's no foot traffic in the crosswalk cars from the cross street--who also have a green light--will make right and left turns across it. Even human pedestrians have to take the initiative and step off the curb before traffic making legal turns will stop for them.

There are a few major intersections in some cities where even turning traffic is held back by their own red arrow lights when it's the pedestrians' turn to walk. But most of them are not like that. In America it's our sacred god-given right to make a right turn.
I suspect that the behavior might be changing, but that that is learned. I doubt that there has been much genetic change in a few generations; how long did it take to domesticate wolves into dogs - many many generations, right?I doubt that we'll ever have the answer to that question. The fact that it only happened once is a clue that it was a slow process. All dogs are descended from a group of a dozen or so in Mesopotamia right around the time of the Agricultural Revolution, when it would have made the most sense for them to be attracted to our new, much larger middens, and for us to appreciate the help in keeping the place clean. It was apparently much easier and faster for the people who already had domestic dogs to trade or otherwise bring them to nearby villages than it was for the people there to duplicate the domestication process.

The same is true of cats; they're all Felis silvestris libica, the subspecies that was welcomed into the granaries of Egypt to feast on rodents.

billvon
11-03-11, 03:46 PM
I've seen it personally and it's become a regular feature of life in Washington--one of those little things that give a city its charm. The problem with your suggestion is that they don't have the math processor to calculate whether a car half a block away is going to stop--or is even capable of stopping.

Neither do we - but we have no problems crossing streets. Dogs don't have math processors, but they can accurately calculate the parabolic trajectory of a thrown ball and start running towards where they know it will end up. Bears don't have math processors, but they can calculate trajectories well enough to snatch fish out of the air. Eagles don't have math processors, but they can go into a stoop and hit even a fast-moving animal by predicting where it will be when they land.


Vehicles are not as nimble as predatory animals, but they move, accelerate and decelerate much faster. The deer don't have the necessary intuition to base calculations on that.

No car can accelerate as fast as a cheetah, and most do not go faster than a cheetah at top speed - at least on surface streets.


Even if there are no human pedestrians around, they understand that cars are far more likely to stop at a crosswalk than anywhere else, and even more likely to do that if the little green light is on.

Deer are colorblind.

Arioch
11-03-11, 05:22 PM
I find that EXTREMELY hard to believe.

I don't. I once saw a pigeon get on a subway train(it was the 2 train for you New Yorkers out there) in Brooklyn and get off the train at the Central Park stop. Animals can truly have some odd behavioral traits when they're transported out of their natural habitat. Hell, I've even seen normally migratory birds refuse to migrate and take shelter in the subway system during the winter and they do just fine.

chimpkin
11-03-11, 06:48 PM
No, vegetation doesn't determine climate - grander scale phenomena, such as the earths rotation, tilt, the confuguration of the continests and of the oceanic circulation determine climate.

Climate is described by the sort of vegetation an area supports (desert, tundra, rain-forest, etc) but the vegetation is a result of the climate, not a cause of it.

Rich

Um, it's a feedback loop.
Vegetation alters climate right back, both on a micro and macro scale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_heat_island


An urban heat island (UHI) is a metropolitan area which is significantly warmer than its surrounding rural areas....

Monthly rainfall is greater downwind of cities, partially due to the UHI. Increases in heat within urban centers increases the length of growing seasons, and decreases the occurrence of weak tornadoes.


http://rainforests.mongabay.com/0906.htm

Tropical rainforests play a vital role in the functioning of the planet's natural systems. The forests regulate local and global weather through their absorption and creation of rainfall and their exchange of atmospheric gases. For example, the Amazon alone creates 50-80 percent of its own rainfall through transpiration. Cutting the rainforests changes the reflectivity of the earth's surface, which affects global weather by altering wind and ocean current patterns, and changes rainfall distribution. If the forests continue to be destroyed, global weather patterns may become more unstable and extreme.

Edited to add: and wildlife is a part of that feedback loop:

Wolf reintroduction to Yellowstone causes aspen regrowth. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19997826/ns/us_news-environment/t/yellowstone-trees-get-help-wolves/)


The most impressive aspen comeback has occurred near streams and gullies in the northern part of the park. In these areas, wolves easily sneak up on elk and the terrain makes it difficult for elk to escape. The research team suggests elk are now avoiding these areas, allowing aspen shoots there to grow into adulthood.

Reiku
11-03-11, 08:53 PM
Well I just took as if caterpillar and a butterfly are like different specie , are they not? we know they look different ?
No it is not a different species at all!!!!!

It is simply a biological transition into a new state or form.

420Joey
11-03-11, 09:01 PM
Why is it favourable for particles to bond together into more complex systems and complete tasks for a 'collective' system to work? Why dont they just work in fast-pace neuron gas cloud or something. Do you think human or high intelligence can be a frame work for something else like in the field of consciousness or manifestation? Why would evolution stop at this point given the fact that we no longer depend on our physical as a way of survival .. we have this vast arena of high intelligence and reality-states like dreams and imagination to explore to evolve into something greater?

Dywyddyr
11-03-11, 10:12 PM
Why is it favourable for particles to bond together into more complex systems and complete tasks for a 'collective' system to work? Why dont they just work in fast-pace neuron gas cloud or something.
What stops the cloud dispersing? How would the elements of a dispersed cloud communicate?


Do you think human or high intelligence can be a frame work for something else like in the field of consciousness or manifestation?
What?


Why would evolution stop at this point given the fact that we no longer depend on our physical as a way of survival
Stop eating for a year then come back and tell me we no longer depend on the physical for survival.


we have this vast arena of high intelligence and reality-states like dreams and imagination to explore to evolve into something greater?
Right...

Arioch
11-04-11, 05:00 AM
@Joey --


Why would evolution stop at this point...

Who said it's stopped? We're still evolving just like every other species is. We've found that many things, including our brain size, have increased in the past fifty thousand years. And vestigial organs like the appendix are also signs that we're evolving, they're organs that used to have a function but have lost their purpose in the human body.


given the fact that we no longer depend on our physical as a way of survival ..

But we do still depend on the physical for our survival, especially in the harsher climates. You try living through a Minnesota winter without proper shelter while telling me this. Of course you really couldn't tell me anything because you'd be dead, but that's just details.


we have this vast arena of high intelligence and reality-states like dreams and imagination to explore to evolve into something greater?

1. Species don't evolve into "something greater" they become better adapted to their environment(which includes things like predators) because those that are more fit for the environment tend to survive while those that are less fit tend to become something's lunch.

2. What the hell do dreams and altered mental states have to do with evolution?

spidergoat
11-04-11, 12:03 PM
Why is it favourable for particles to bond together into more complex systems and complete tasks for a 'collective' system to work? Why dont they just work in fast-pace neuron gas cloud or something. Do you think human or high intelligence can be a frame work for something else like in the field of consciousness or manifestation? Why would evolution stop at this point given the fact that we no longer depend on our physical as a way of survival .. we have this vast arena of high intelligence and reality-states like dreams and imagination to explore to evolve into something greater?

There has to be an avenue of gradual improvement. Evolution cannot make leaps of insight and change to something entirely new just because it might work.

Arioch
11-04-11, 03:50 PM
It's also important to note that natural selection is not very far sighted. It doesn't plan on evolving something which might be beneficial in a few generations, it's only concerns are what is beneficial now.

RichW9090
11-06-11, 09:10 PM
The best evidence indicates that wolves gave rise to dogs at least three different times, in different parts of the world. The wolf to dog change was not a one-off.

Rich

RichW9090
11-06-11, 09:17 PM
Vegetation does not determine climate. Your examples of the interdependency of animals and plants doesn't speak to determining climate at all.

All photosynthesizing plants add oxygen to the atmosphere. It is not the kind of vegeation - the species - that matter, it is the total biomass of O2 producing plants.

One can take the "earth as organism" analogy a bit too far.

Rich

Hercules Rockefeller
11-06-11, 09:49 PM
All photosynthesizing plants add oxygen to the atmosphere. It is not the kind of vegeation - the species - that matter, it is the total biomass of O2 producing plants.

People always seem to forget that 50% of Earth’s oxygen is produced by photosynthetic marine protists. It’s not all about land plants!

Dywyddyr
11-06-11, 09:54 PM
Green whales with placards and banners cause oxygen? :p

420Joey
11-09-11, 10:24 AM
Do you think we will eventually evolve into realizing more than 3-1 dimensions? When I said dream-like states consider what happens when we dream.

We can take on other perspectives, can take on more than one focal point, subconsciously create alternative or similar enviorments, etc. to the point of perfect simulations.

No other animals as far as we know have this type of intelligence and brain power available to them. Evolution doesent work at an exponential rate? I just find it to be amazing that we were made randomly through bacteria and we are now high complex beings and that it would end there in lieu of the possibilities. Conscious beings reduce entropy in the system. We seem to be the universe trying to organize it.

Dywyddyr
11-09-11, 10:29 AM
Do you think we will eventually evolve into realizing more than 3-1 dimensions?
What do you mean "realising"?
Why would we?


to the point of perfect simulations.
Nope.


No other animals as far as we know have this type of intelligence and brain power available to them.
So what?


Evolution doesent work at an exponential rate?
No.


I just find it to be amazing that we were made randomly through bacteria and we are now high complex beings and that it would end there in lieu of the possibilities.
What makes you think it's ended?

Pincho Paxton
11-09-11, 12:41 PM
Humans have evolved....... into me! :D

billvon
11-09-11, 01:00 PM
Evolution doesent work at an exponential rate?


No.

In many ways I think it does. The development of sexual reproduction greatly accelerated the pace of evolution because it became possible to retain traits that might be harmful in the absence of a second trait, but massively beneficial in the presence of a second trait or in an alternative environment. (Sickle cell anemia would be an example here.) The development of the HOX complex allowed simple mutations to produce very divergent functional phenotypes. The implementation of nursing allowed much more diversity in mammals; removing the requirement for the organism to fend for itself right out of the womb allowed a much greater flexibility in the evolution of higher mental functions (less hardwired circuitry required; more room for mutations that increase the ability to learn.)

leopold
11-09-11, 03:21 PM
I stress “scientific” sources because, as with most evolutionary topics, idiot creationists have bastardized and corrupted the topic to fit their pre-determined non-scientistic viewpoint. Be wary of where you get your information from.
how is that any different than idiot evolutionists that have bastardized and corrupted the topic to fit their pre-conceived non-scientific viewpoint?

spidergoat
11-09-11, 03:32 PM
how is that any different than idiot evolutionists that have bastardized and corrupted the topic to fit their pre-conceived non-scientific viewpoint?

Because they aren't idiots, they have not corrupted the topic, and their standpoint is scientific. :p

Hercules Rockefeller
11-09-11, 07:58 PM
Mod note: Wellwisher’s post (and associated replies) have been moved to a dedicated thread for collecting the numerous posts (spam) by wellwisher on his 'alternative hypothesis' that entropy explains anything and everything in biology.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=2853509

Edit: Eight more 'wellwisher entropy' posts (and associated replies, 18 posts total) have been moved to the dedicated wellwisher/entropy thread.

arauca
11-23-11, 08:18 PM
Think of it as growing up, not evolving. A Caterpillar is a child and when it hits puberty it turns into a butterfly.

There isn't really a simpler way to say it.

Migratory monarchs are at least two generations removed from those that made the journey the previous fall," said Steven M. Reppert, MD, professor and chair of neurobiology and senior author of the study. "They have never been to the overwintering sites before, and have no relatives to follow on their way. There must be a genetic program underlying the butterflies' migratory behavior. We want to know what that program is, and how it works."

In a paper published in the journal Cell, Reppert and UMMS colleagues Shuai Zhan, PhD, and Christine Merlin, PhD, along with collaborator Jeffrey L. Boore, PhD, CEO of Genome Project Solutions, describe how next-generation sequencing technology was used to generate a draft 273 Mb genome of the migratory monarch. Analysis of the combined genetic assembly revealed an estimated set of 16,866 protein-coding genes, comprising several gene families likely involved in major aspects of the monarch's seasonal migration. The novel insights observed by Reppert and colleagues in the newly sequenced monarch genome include:

identifying genes involved in visual input and central processing by the sun compass
a full repertoire of molecular components for the monarch circadian clock
all members of the juvenile hormone biosynthetic pathway whose regulation is critical for a successful migration and which shows an unexpected regulation pattern
additional molecular signatures of oriented flight behavior
monarch-specific expansions of odorant receptors potentially important for long-distance migration
a variant of the sodium/potassium pump that underlies a valuable chemical defense mechanism to fend off predators during the migration

"Why sequence another species?" said Laurie Tompkins, Ph.D., who oversees grants focused on the genetics of behavior at the National Institutes of Health's National Institute of General Medical Sciences, which supported the work. "In this case, it's because monarch butterflies are exceptional in that they migrate thousands of miles, seasonally. Genomic sequence provides the raw material for understanding the remarkable behavioral and physiological adaptations that enable the butterflies' long-distance migration."

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-11-sequence-monarch-butterfly-genome.html

Aqueous Id
11-23-11, 10:08 PM
... There must be a genetic program underlying the butterflies' migratory behavior.


why did the larva need wings?
why did it need to go anywhere?
how far did they go when the landmasses were closer together?
did these long migratory routes increment gradually from short ones?
how does any creature navigate?
what is the oldest known migratory animal?


evolution addressed all of this and more.....much more!

kwhilborn
11-24-11, 07:32 AM
Maggots resemble little caterpillars, and flies a smaller version of butterflies. Evolution of flying species like this is unique, and basically the "baby" developed legs or ability to move somewhat for self defence.
There are probably other versions of the species where the baby could not move, and either could not provide enough sustenance to survive, or was killed too often for the species to propagate.
Insect wings are probably very delicate, and all flying insects develop wings after birth. The butterfly wing is quite extreme and requires the caterpillar to hide away for at least a week.

arauca
11-24-11, 12:07 PM
why did the larva need wings?
why did it need to go anywhere?
how far did they go when the landmasses were closer together?
did these long migratory routes increment gradually from short ones?
how does any creature navigate?
what is the oldest known migratory animal?


evolution addressed all of this and more.....much more!

I am sure it does address , but some time is it sensible,
The butterfly is born , die , rises from the ashes and back .
I am curious for an explanation. Not just , " it is evolution" or, " shit happens "

Aqueous Id
11-25-11, 11:51 AM
I am sure it does address , but some time is it sensible,
The butterfly is born , die , rises from the ashes and back .
I am curious for an explanation. Not just , " it is evolution" or, " shit happens "

Earlier you mentioned that the caterpillar dies. No, it morphs. It does go dormant, but it is not dead. It is reconstructing itself, using the tools of nature, which include tools exploited during the evolution of a species. And of course this is the general trend among vast numbers of insects, whose adult form needs wings.

I asked you why they need wings. It would seem that this is the best way to spread sexual variation, by covering vast regions where regional variations can help species survive.

In this regard, metamorphosis would appear to have evolved, or at least to reflect the evolved aspects of increasing the range to increase the variation, i.e., to strengthen the contribution of variation by sexual reproduction.

Your say you are searching for an understanding of metamorphosis. Have you considered a course in entomology?

Crunchy Cat
11-25-11, 08:59 PM
...
The butterfly is born , die , rises from the ashes and back .
I am curious for an explanation. Not just , " it is evolution" or, " shit happens "

Considering all the correct responses you have been given, I can only presume that you do not understand them. Perhaps taking some college classes on evolutionary biology in your area of the world will help as it can be communicated in whatever your native language is.

arauca
11-25-11, 09:26 PM
Earlier you mentioned that the caterpillar dies. .

I asked you why they need wings. It would seem that this is the best way to spread sexual variation, by covering vast regions where regional variations can help species survive.

In this regard, metamorphosis would appear to have evolved, or at least to reflect the evolved aspects of increasing the range to increase the variation, i.e., to strengthen the contribution of variation by sexual reproduction.

Your say you are searching for an understanding of metamorphosis. Have you considered a course in entomology?

Well as you pointed out , the larva did not die ok so it evolves into a butterfly, U accept that.
But In the case of Monarch butterfly what is the explanation , without me taking an entomology course

Aqueous Id
11-25-11, 09:48 PM
Well as you pointed out , the larva did not die ok so it evolves into a butterfly, U accept that.
But In the case of Monarch butterfly what is the explanation , without me taking an entomology course

No actually it does not evolve. We use the term metamorphosis here to distinguish from the evolution over generations.

I guess I didn't understand what you are asking about the butterfly. Could you state more fully what you are saying about this critter in regard to evolution?

Hercules Rockefeller
11-27-11, 09:22 PM
Mod note: 22 off-topic posts moved to here (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=97099).

ULTRA
11-27-11, 10:29 PM
I've not read the whole thread yet, (its pretty late) but i'm not sure that darwinian evolution does express the metamorphasis process. Its a process that is still not well understood, and I would say would be best described by the differentiation of cells. It is only in this metamorphasis process I can think of where any complex life (barring nematodes) seems to be able to rebuild itself in this way.

Hercules Rockefeller
11-27-11, 11:05 PM
Its a process that is still not well understood, and I would say would be best described by the differentiation of cells. It is only in this metamorphasis process I can think of where any complex life (barring nematodes) seems to be able to rebuild itself in this way.

Whilst I’m not claiming that humans metamorphosize in the same way insects do, I’ve always thought that the changes humans, particularly males, undergo during puberty might be considered to be a mini-metamorphosis. Growth spurts, breaking voices, hair growth, muscle growth, sexual maturity etc etc. There are some pretty dramatic changes and they are all hormone-, cell proliferation- and cell differentiation-driven physiological events, just as the metamorphosis of an insect is a hormone-, cell proliferation- and cell differentiation-driven event.

Fraggle Rocker
11-28-11, 11:17 AM
Whilst I’m not claiming that humans metamorphosize in the same way insects do, I’ve always thought that the changes humans, particularly males, undergo during puberty might be considered to be a mini-metamorphosis. Growth spurts, breaking voices, hair growth, muscle growth, sexual maturity etc etc. There are some pretty dramatic changes and they are all hormone-, cell proliferation- and cell differentiation-driven physiological events, just as the metamorphosis of an insect is a hormone-, cell proliferation- and cell differentiation-driven event.The word "metamorphosis" is applied very specifically in science. It has to be an abrupt and conspicous change in body structure, such as a frog growing legs, lungs and tongue in one day. Growth spurts, increase in the size of limbs or organs, and glands ramping up their production of hormones are just maturation, not metamorphosis.

Many of the changes which begin (or at least become noticeable) in human adolescence are not completed at the end of that period. In particular, the synapses which manage what we think of as adult reasoning or "wisdom" (deferred gratification, caring for others, long-term thinking, risk analysis and management, etc.) are not fully formed until the 30's.

This is why armies are primarily comprised of very young people--not just because they're stronger and heal faster.

Sock puppet path
11-28-11, 03:53 PM
I find that EXTREMELY hard to believe. It would make more sense that the deer cross the road when the cars stop instead of them using the cross walk signal.

Did some research, not definitive but interesting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l14mj2w3NXg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxcNOJN-ovo

Hercules Rockefeller
11-28-11, 04:25 PM
The word "metamorphosis" is applied very specifically in science.... yada yada yada.

Yeah, dude, my doctorate and first postdoctoral position was in the area of developmental biology (neurodevelopmental biology to be precise). I have four first-author and two additional co-author publications in various developmental biology journals. I have a better than average understanding of animal body plan development. Even a cursory glance at what I wrote indicates that I was not saying humans undergo a genuine metamorphosis.

Fraggle Rocker
11-29-11, 02:00 PM
Even a cursory glance at what I wrote indicates that I was not saying humans undergo a genuine metamorphosis.Sure, but the rest of the members might not understand that. No offense intended, sorry.

Hercules Rockefeller
11-29-11, 11:12 PM
Mod note: 12 off-topic posts moved here (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=97099).

Mod note: Thread title changed from ‘Darwinian evolution’ to ‘Evolution of metamorphosis’. The new title is more reflective of the intended discussion; the old title was attracting irritating uneducated general evolution denialism posts.

arauca
12-14-11, 08:57 PM
E

Your say you are searching for an understanding of metamorphosis. Have you considered a course in entomology?


"... But to build a butterfly you have to break down a caterpillar.
The thing that drives caterpillars (and other flying insect larvae) to stop feeding their faces, settle down somewhere safe, and pupate, is the hormone ecdysone. It's the same hormone that causes the larvae to moult each time they outgrow their current skin. The reason this final moult into a butterfly is so different from the earlier ones is because the level of another hormone — juvenile hormone — is suddenly lower.

Juvenile hormone is the great controller of metamorphosis, by delaying it until the caterpillar has moulted and grown enough to produce a decent-sized butterfly. It works by blocking the genes in the imaginal discs, keeping those wannabe butterfly cells in a holding pattern. So while juvenile hormone is being pumped out of tiny glands behind the brain, all the caterpillar can do is feed, grow and — when instructed by ecdysone — moult. (It's so good at preventing larvae from maturing that a lot of insecticides have been based on artificial juvenile hormone).

But juvenile hormone isn't just a suppressor of butterfly development, it's essential for the caterpillar's own cells to stay alive.

The cells that make up the caterpillar's muscles, gut and salivary glands are destined to end up as spare parts for the greater-butterfly-good. Each cell is poised to self-destruct during metamorphosis by activating some of its own enzymes, called caspases.

Like digestive enzymes, caspases tear through the cell's proteins, releasing prime butterfly-making material. (This process is called apoptosis, or programmed cell death, and it's the same thing that happens to about 50 million cells in your body every day to make sure you don't double in size every time your cells multiply). At any given time juvenile hormone is the only thing stopping all those caterpillar cells from ending it all.

Like other flying insects that undergo complete metamorphosis, caterpillars go through five regular moults during their mindless hungry lives, upsizing their outer skin each time.

When the caterpillar is big enough, usually after the fifth moult, the level of juvenile hormone drops off. With less juvenile hormone around, instead of inducing a regular moult the ecdysone now drives the caterpillar to pupate. Once the caterpillar is safely ensconced in some kind of silky hideaway, juvenile hormone stops being made altogether.

Without juvenile hormone to suppress the imaginal discs, or to keep the regular cells from topping themselves, the two trademarks of metamorphosis kick into full swing. And in the kind of beautifully orchestrated way that only nature or really top-shelf creators can manage, the demise of caterpillar and creation of butterfly happen side-by-side


Were you familiar with this process ?

arauca
12-15-11, 09:49 AM
The cells in the imaginal discs are like stem cells without commitment issues. From early on in the caterpillar's life, each one of them is locked into becoming a particular bit of butterfly anatomy. And they're all just sitting there, waiting to get the go ahead to start making butterfly parts.

But to build a butterfly you have to break down a caterpillar.

During the week or two spent in its chrysalis (pupation) the caterpillar gradually digests all of its own tissue, releasing the nutrients that all those imaginal discs then use to grow into butterfly wings, legs, feelers and the rest. It's the ultimate in recycling makeovers, and it's due to some interdependent hormonal changes that make puberty look like a doddle.

The hormonal tango

From little grubs butterflies grow

The thing that drives caterpillars (and other flying insect larvae) to stop feeding their faces, settle down somewhere safe, and pupate, is the hormone ecdysone. It's the same hormone that causes the larvae to moult each time they outgrow their current skin. The reason this final moult into a butterfly is so different from the earlier ones is because the level of another hormone — juvenile hormone — is suddenly lower.

Juvenile hormone is the great controller of metamorphosis, by delaying it until the caterpillar has moulted and grown enough to produce a decent-sized butterfly. It works by blocking the genes in the imaginal discs, keeping those wannabe butterfly cells in a holding pattern. So while juvenile hormone is being pumped out of tiny glands behind the brain, all the caterpillar can do is feed, grow and — when instructed by ecdysone — moult. (It's so good at preventing larvae from maturing that a lot of insecticides have been based on artificial juvenile hormone).

But juvenile hormone isn't just a suppressor of butterfly development, it's essential for the caterpillar's own cells to stay alive.

The cells that make up the caterpillar's muscles, gut and salivary glands are destined to end up as spare parts for the greater-butterfly-good. Each cell is poised to self-destruct during metamorphosis by activating some of its own enzymes, called caspases.

Like digestive enzymes, caspases tear through the cell's proteins, releasing prime butterfly-making material. (This process is called apoptosis, or programmed cell death, and it's the same thing that happens to about 50 million cells in your body every day to make sure you don't double in size every time your cells multiply). At any given time juvenile hormone is the only thing stopping all those caterpillar cells from ending it all.

Like other flying insects that undergo complete metamorphosis, caterpillars go through five regular moults during their mindless hungry lives, upsizing their outer skin each time.

When the caterpillar is big enough, usually after the fifth moult, the level of juvenile hormone drops off. With less juvenile hormone around, instead of inducing a regular moult the ecdysone now drives the caterpillar to pupate. Once the caterpillar is safely ensconced in some kind of silky hideaway, juvenile hormone stops being made altogether.

Without juvenile hormone to suppress the imaginal discs, or to keep the regular cells from topping themselves, the two trademarks of metamorphosis kick into full swing. And in the kind of beautifully orchestrated way that only nature or really top-shelf creators can manage, the demise of caterpillar and creation of butterfly happen side-by-side.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2011/12/07/3384014.htm?site=science/basics

scheherazade
12-15-11, 10:20 AM
Interesting information on butterflies, arauca. Thanks for the link.

Delightful creatures, are butterflies, and so much diversity in their size and color.

http://slodive.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/butterfly-picture/colorful-butterfly.jpg

We even have a number of them in the Yukon, as in the following photo.

http://www.adventurouspirits.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/IMG_0416.jpg

arauca
12-16-11, 10:30 AM
why did the larva need wings?
why did it need to go anywhere?
how far did they go when the landmasses were closer together?
did these long migratory routes increment gradually from short ones?
how does any creature navigate?
what is the oldest known migratory animal?


evolution addressed all of this and more.....much more!

Why call it evolution . Call it what ever will be will be , because changed are programmed in sense creation of a cell in the living being.