SEE: Caste System is Racism, Fascism and Nazism www.ambedkar.org/News/Cssacndzsm.htm

As author states, even major figures who have greatly suffered racism and have inspired challenge and change, such as Martin Luther KIng, and Mandella, have not eeven mentioned the Caste System of India!

Its influence is really far reaching. te New Age nearly all look to te East for their insoiration , and most of that came from the likes of Theosophy, Madam Blavasky and her racist idea of 'root races, which inspired the nazis..!

And tis idea is basically endemic throughout patriarchal cultures.

So read article--which is rightly VERY passionate--and share you views about this
enormous issue affecting R E A L people, freely.

maybe you don't like it, but it's the truth. cause. effect. karma.
that's how the world works, you can't change it.

blavatsky's ideas may seem racist, but they're still true.
---
but because people are stupid, they create evil of everything.

This is just a case of blowing out of proportion, something which is miniscule as compared to any other manifestation of racism. What would have started as a social division of labour probably became set in stone over a period of time.

And things have changed a great deal; which country in the world reserves 50% of all its state educational and job positions to the so-called under-privileged, but India?

Thanks.

India has its problems, but the country is emerging. And, IMHO, they are far more enlightened than their Paki neighbors to the west. God, what a shithole Pakistan is.

Let's see:
c7ityi - "It's their own fault"
UltiTruth - "It's a lot worse elsewhere, and it's changing. Why make a fuss?"
Xerxes - "It's changing, and it's a lot worse elsewhere."

So good folks, as long as it's worse elsewhere, or not really too bad (and pretty much their own fault anyway) we can just ignore it? Allow the injustices to continue? After all, India is the largest democracy on the planet, so it wouldn't be politically correct to denigrate them for this little idiosynchrasy, would it? We wouldn't want to devalue our attacks on Bush, or Big Business by attacking other injustices, would we? I guess not.

Sleep well.

I trust it won't inconvenience you Duendy, having me visibly on the same side of the fence as yourself.

Let's see:
c7ityi - "It's their own fault"

it isn't, because people don't choose to exist and be stupid.

east (like india) has earthly poverty, but west has spiritual poverty.

Interesting quote by the good doctor:

"To substantiate and permanently sustain this diabolical Caste System, the white aryans invented millions of gods and goddesses, most cruel karma theory, tons of superstitions, dogmas, fear-instilled blind faiths, all in the name of barbarous "brahminism".*

Later on, the obnoxious brahminism was and still is referred to as "hinduism" (the name given by the invading ignorant Muslims)"

*edited to add first paragraph.

Hey Oph.....good to hear your empathy. It amazes me some of the replies........speechless actually. but can still type!
bottom line is, its exactly this (points to head) which causes all that and tis bullshite, yes c7 and co. silly bloody thinking. which leads to actions which in India's case have gone on for tousands of miserable years, especially for the UMAN being said to be lower caste and getting the karma they deserve.
Can you no see it is yor thinking that ADDS TO this madness. you may think you are just saying what you say and it dont matter, but it is as part of the problem as the ones who began it

It is really important to get yer head round tisproblem cause as aid it is even ignored by major individuals who suffered great racism, like King, and Mandella. WHY WHYis this problem so invisible....'untouchable'? The investigation of this is really serious. it is not something we can play with, cause it goes right to the heartt of our culture, of the WORLD. right to the heart of you me.

What I hate is people trying to destroy ancient Indian civilization and impose our western standards on them. It's colonialism!

India is package deal and for all of the crap that goes on in its borders it's a damn cool place. If we try to force India out of the caste system, it will destroy their culture. What India really needs is a slow evolution of their values, not to become a mirror image of the west, cram as many McDonalds as can feed a billion people and forget their timeworn heritage.

Its the last major museum of civilization.

Oh.. And don't lump with the Theosophists..

What I hate is people trying to destroy ancient Indian civilization and impose our western standards on them. It's colonialism!

me)))))The British empire?......colonialism?? remember?

India is package deal and for all of the crap that goes on in its borders it's a damn cool place.

me)))a 'damn cool place'? for WHO? did you even read the article?have you any idea what the poverty is like tere where people have to disable tem selves and thir children to get some pity. Did you read what happens to the 'intouchables'. i find your 'damn cool' obscene. if it's so damn cool would you like to be an 'untouchable' and shovel shit etc for your masters. would you like to see our mamma , pappa, gran, children treated like shit....? answer me honestly.

If we try to force India out of the caste system, it will destroy their culture.

me))))SO? the whole point is that it is a fukin EVIL culture tat creates a caste system which treats people like shit? what cannot you see this?? i find you despairing. ok, you gotfreedom to tink tis, but i got freedom to let you know your views are so horrendous to me.....So dispiriting

What India really needs is a slow evolution of their values, not to become a mirror image of the west, cram as many McDonalds as can feed a billion people and forget their timeworn heritage.

me)))whose on about McDonalds?
Ibelieve you are being romantic. you are assuming that to NOT be te fascist culture tey've been for tousands of years the only alternative is Mcdonaldism/Americanisation. But you fail to dig that hat INdia IS has greatly affected the world. The caste system IS not only in Idia in a very extreme form but everywhere. so to tackle that we cant ignore India, which author of article argues is its birth place. I a saying the patriarchy is its birthplace

Its the last major museum of civilization.

me)))))who wants a museum. i just want the end of people being treated like shit by others who think they are superior, and have that right. they are NOT. and how they maintain this oppression is through myth/propaganda. S when you SEE and understand this you cannot go back. you've seen it. Now i am curious as to why you haven't? are you denying it, or haven't you looked?

Oh.. And don't lump with the Theosophists..
ahhhhhh, you haven't. you can't not 'lump' in the Theosophists! The Theosophits are a main connecting factor between that Eastern fascist myth and West's fascist myth. to explore all this Xerxes you have GOT to see patterns which connect!

A word of caution duendy - Lowell saw patterns that connect and the myth of canals on Mars was born. We are a pattern creating beast. We see them even when they aren't there.

Ghandi had a thing or two to say about the caste system. And of course I am reminded of his wonderful rejoinder to the journalist who asked what he thought of Western Civilisation. "I would be in favour of it."

A word of caution duendy - Lowell saw patterns that connect and the myth of canals on Mars was born. We are a pattern creating beast. We see them even when they aren't there.

Ghandi had a thing or two to say about the caste system. And of course I am reminded of his wonderful rejoinder to the journalist who asked what he thought of Western Civilisation. "I would be in favour of it."
the patterns i a point out all over these forums are there for you etc to see. ting is many of you dont even want to look!
the literalist religionists here certainly dont as dont the scientific materilists. so am including these mindsets in my seeingpaterns and am seein they are in SEVERE denial!...when someone wont look, or cannot 'hear' or 'see' you, tis i call 'taboo behaviour'. of course i also can get heavy abuse. tis is also taboo behaviour. when someone will NOT serioulsy look and explore the argument but goes into prsonal abuse this is a diversionary tactic. not only twards me but also for themselves/ so that they dont HAVE to suffer having to look at their worldview...!
Good you mention Ghandi. many do when talking about such issues. he is held up as some kind of saintly figure but in REALITY he was a follower of Vedata philosophy which believes in a 'Oeness' versus a 'Many'----thus he would call the suffering the caste system causes, espcially for tose at the bottom of it, 'Maya' ie., illusion. this is a major major fukin cop out. to so not deal with it is calling something an illusion. in this way you dont even give it credit for being R E A L!!

well i dont need old and dead ghandi etc etc etc to quote etc etc. i am telling you NOW, all this situation--this evil caste system is VERY real and has been going on and on for several thousand years!!!

its exactly this (points to head) which causes all that and tis bullshite, yes c7 and co.
don't say that. i might cry.

don't say that. i might cry.
if you Did, it'll only be for yourself!

yr so mean.

yr so mean.
oh so you can feel mean??? wen its coming to YO that is. but next breath can write off countless generations of fellow sufferers, including what happening now as 'oh, its their karma'..?!

my suffering is also my karma. but it's not people's fault that they have karma, because no one is responsible for their existence.

my suffering is also my karma. but it's not people's fault that they have karma, because no one is responsible for their existence.
you haven't gotten my point---as usual. i am clearly saying that the karma-doctrine is a pile of crap. a schema to have those that have keeping those that don't without, and treated as less-than, and MAKING--THE OPPRESSORS making, not 'karma'--their lives a misery

what is the main block preventing you from seeing this?

the karma doctrine itself is not crap. the way which people teach it is crap, and what they think about it.

gun's don't kill, people do.
doctrines are not evil, people are.

what is the main block preventing you from seeing this?

karma.

So read article--which is rightly VERY passionate--and share you views about this enormous issue affecting R E A L people, freely.

I think a caste system is necessary. Most people don't have the aptitude to be leaders; in fact, most people suck at anything other than picking turnips. Thus, keep 'em down.

My belief is that the caste system is oppressive in nature, hence by the leaders of Hinduism have called for the abloishment of this system in the common era, including the Mahatma Gandi.

Hinduism isnt evil though, even if I believe it is false, to say it is evil is too much.

Peace.

My belief is that the caste system is oppressive in nature, hence by the leaders of Hinduism have called for the abloishment of this system in the common era, including the Mahatma Gandi.

Hinduism isnt evil though, even if I believe it is false, to say it is evil is too much.

You really are living in a fantasy world, Diamondhearts. The author, who was a Dalit himself, says Hinduism is a Satanic Cult, and that it should be abolished.

Of course, if that were to happen, Islam would probably be next.

You really don't have a clue, do you?

karma exists, but it would probably be better to not talk about it since people are too stupid.
My belief is that the caste system is oppressive in nature,
of course, because you believe in islam.

the karma doctrine itself is not crap. the way which people teach it is crap, and what they think about it.

gun's don't kill, people do.
doctrines are not evil, people are.



karma.
OKe, you claim it is is the way the karma-doctrine has been taught, yes? so let me then ask you--as i am familiar with the doctrine--how does YOURunderstandingof it significantly differ from how it's been taught?

I think a caste system is necessary. Most people don't have the aptitude to be leaders; in fact, most people suck at anything other than picking turnips. Thus, keep 'em down.
Your silly-childishly provacative reponse is not surprising from what i've read of you before. hardly worth my effort. i am supposed you WULD love to shovel shit and wipe your 'leaders' arses. so we'll leave it at that!

OKe, you claim it is is the way the karma-doctrine has been taught, yes? so let me then ask you--as i am familiar with the doctrine--how does YOURunderstandingof it significantly differ from how it's been taught?
the karma doctrine should not be teached at all to people who are not ready to hear it.

Your silly-childishly provacative reponse
here you are, oppressing children again.

the karma doctrine should not be teached at all to people who are not ready to hear it.

me)))oh righrt, apart from ever-so-intelligent you...? so that means I a not ready tyhen? you are sooo full of mush i dont know why i even bother replyin to you to be quitehonest. but your silliness is THE only reaction this serious subject's getting. jeeeeeZUS what a fukin world this is. noone give A shit do they???????!!!

here you are, oppressing children again.
np. a child wouldhafv vstly MORE INSIGHT THAT YOUR DISPLAYING. COMING BACK WITH NOT-FUNNY QUIPS. NOT TAKING THISSHIT SERIOUSLY. WHEN I SAY 'CHILDish' I AM MEANING 'SILLY ADULT WIT NOT MUCH SENSE' IS WHATI MEAn

duendy,

you're silly, so i respond silly.

duendy,

you're silly, so i respond silly.
no darlin, you respond to EVEYOne silly. you ARE silly. you live in some kind of horrendous mish-mushness universe

np. a child wouldhafv vstly MORE INSIGHT THAT YOUR DISPLAYING. COMING BACK WITH NOT-FUNNY QUIPS. NOT TAKING THISSHIT SERIOUSLY. WHEN I SAY 'CHILDish' I AM MEANING 'SILLY ADULT WIT NOT MUCH SENSE' IS WHATI MEAn

Duendy, you're on to a good topic here and are defending the rights of those oppressed. You should ignore c7 and stick to your guns.

I read the good doctors lengthy article, c7 has probably not. Simply ignore her insane rants.

no darlin, you respond to EVEYOne silly. you ARE silly. you live in some kind of horrendous mish-mushness universe

im also silly. it takes a great deal of intelligence to be silly. lewis carroll was an ordained c of e priest & mathematician

im a christian/hindu. the only things i accept from hinduism are that we are god & reincarnation & genuine supernaturalism

im also silly. it takes a great deal of intelligence to be silly. lewis carroll was an ordained c of e priest & mathematician

me)))more surreal, than silly. c7 is just being ....silly

im a christian/hindu. the only things i accept from hinduism are that we are god & reincarnation & genuine supernaturalism
what are your views on the subject of this thread? the Indian Hindu Caste System??

...genuine supernaturalism

Can there be a fake supernaturalism?

Caste system per se is not bad. It is just a representation of specialization and division of labour. What is bad though is the discrimination and superiority-inferiority matrix that have emerged as a by-product of the structure.

India has been working hard to address these anomolies- the constitution guarantees equality and denounces discrimination. Can you believe that uttering a underprivileged person's caste is a non-bailable offence in India?
Half of all government post and educational opportunities in the country have been reserved for candidates from the under-privileged for the last 50 years (and continues today) to bring them upto speed - would this be possible in any other country? So the efforts in the direction of equality are very strong and have achieved quite a deal. The country has a fair democracy that allows equal rights for all.

Today, caste-based discrimination is limited to a few pockets in the interior, with no significant presence in the cities and the more-developed areas. It won't be long before even this is got rid of. And for the site mentioned, there are a million others. Does the site ever mention anywhere what have been the steps taken to correct the anomaly? So there is an agenda.
Karma has no relevance to this and is just a convenient projection. The concept of Karma is something very different.
Thanks.

Caste systems make sense.

Not every person can do every job.

Traits are heritable and determine who can do what job.

George Bush, in a caste system, would not be allowed to run for president.

Caste system per se is not bad.

me>>>>>>for WHO? YOU? are YO shovelling shit. and being treated like someone's salve?i ask seriously.

It is just a representation of specialization and division of labour. What is bad though is the discrimination and superiority-inferiority matrix that have emerged as a by-product of the structure.

meahhhhas 'by-product' hey. NO! the very idea is evil mate. who are these people who decide 'divisionsof labour'??

India has been working hard to address these anomolies- the constitution guarantees equality and denounces discrimination. Can you believe that uttering a underprivileged person's caste is a non-bailable offence in India?
Half of all government post and educational opportunities in the country have been reserved for candidates from the under-privileged for the last 50 years (and continues today) to bring them upto speed - would this be possible in any other country? So the efforts in the direction of equality are very strong and have achieved quite a deal. The country has a fair democracy that allows equal rights for all.

me))))where are your sources for tis. As far as I m aware thehorror of caste system continues onward into 21st century.

Today, caste-based discrimination is limited to a few pockets in the interior, with no significant presence in the cities and the more-developed areas. It won't be long before even this is got rid of. And for the site mentioned, there are a million others. Does the site ever mention anywhere what have been the steps taken to correct the anomaly? So there is an agenda.

me>>>>>>>well all I am looking at is your 'words of reassurance'......? where is YOUR evidence for what you state. are you also telling me abject poverty doesn't exist in India---obviously due to caste....?

Karma has no relevance to this and is just a convenient projection. The concept of Karma is something very different.
Thanks.
WRONG. it is CENTRAL to the very conceptual origins of the caste system ...obviously. it all stems from the propaganda of some people being 'born purer' than others!

Your an apologist.

duendy, you don't understand the karma thing. you look at it from your personal point of view. for many people, karma is good. especially for those who suffer. cos it gives them meaning, that it's not just bad luck that they suffer.

of course... it's wrong that people look down on those who suffer... and they will get karma for that... but no one can say that people who suffer have bad karma... only god knows what karma people have... no person should judge others...

you're too young duendy... you should wait a few thousand years.

duendy, you don't understand the karma thing. you look at it from your personal point of view. for many people, karma is good. especially for those who suffer. cos it gives them meaning, that it's not just bad luck that they suffer.

me))i asked you to explain how you understand it. you decline.
Now you are goingon about how it is good for people DEPSITE how we have pointed out very very clearly that it most surely surely isn't. you are seemingly completelty ignorant aren't you?

of course... it's wrong that people look down on those who suffer... and they will get karma for that... but no one can say that people who suffer have bad karma... only god knows what karma people have... no person should judge others...

you're too young duendy... you should wait a few thousand years.

and you are too bleedin daft to even bother with. sorry to be so blunt but it's true.

Where is your post?!

Originally Posted by UltiTruth
Caste system per se is not bad.

me>>>>>>for WHO? YOU? are YO shovelling shit. and being treated like someone's salve?i ask seriously.
Have you suffered because of caste? What is your source of information but for the shit you stepped into on the stupid website?

It is just a representation of specialization and division of labour. What is bad though is the discrimination and superiority-inferiority matrix that have emerged as a by-product of the structure.

meahhhhas 'by-product' hey. NO! the very idea is evil mate. who are these people who decide 'divisionsof labour'??
Nobody decides, pal. It is an aberration that evolved aside the main caste system.

India has been working hard to address these anomolies- the constitution guarantees equality and denounces discrimination. Can you believe that uttering a underprivileged person's caste is a non-bailable offence in India?
Half of all government post and educational opportunities in the country have been reserved for candidates from the under-privileged for the last 50 years (and continues today) to bring them upto speed - would this be possible in any other country? So the efforts in the direction of equality are very strong and have achieved quite a deal. The country has a fair democracy that allows equal rights for all.

me))))where are your sources for tis. As far as I m aware thehorror of caste system continues onward into 21st century.

Read about India and its polity. A good number of current leaders and officers are from the weaker sections. Forgot to mention there are also major scholarships/aid only for weaker sections.
i know a lot of people who didn't make it to being doctors because the seats moved to someone less qualified, thanks to the reservation system. No regrets, though.

Today, caste-based discrimination is limited to a few pockets in the interior, with no significant presence in the cities and the more-developed areas. It won't be long before even this is got rid of. And for the site mentioned, there are a million others. Does the site ever mention anywhere what have been the steps taken to correct the anomaly? So there is an agenda.

me>>>>>>>well all I am looking at is your 'words of reassurance'......? where is YOUR evidence for what you state. are you also telling me abject poverty doesn't exist in India---obviously due to caste....?

You are mixed up and emotional. Where did I talk about poverty? All I said is that with general advancement, caste becomes a non-entity.

WRONG. it is CENTRAL to the very conceptual origins of the caste system ...obviously. it all stems from the propaganda of some people being 'born purer' than others!

Your an apologist.
Phew, misconceptions!
And are you aware that caste system exists in Indian Christians and Muslims too?!

Now you are goingon about how it is good for people DEPSITE how we have pointed out very very clearly that it most surely surely isn't.

for me it is. i'm sure it's for others too. but i don't believe in karma because it makes me feel better when i suffer, but because i think it's true.

and you are too bleedin daft to even bother with. sorry to be so blunt but it's true.

you should listen to some daft punk and calm down.

Racits!!1!

Where is your post?!

Have you suffered because of caste? What is your source of information but for the shit you stepped into on the stupid website?

me)))yes i have suffered racism. yourself?

Nobody decides, pal. It is an aberration that evolved aside the main caste system.

me)))no. the divisin oflabour is class-based---obviously

Read about India and its polity. A good number of current leaders and officers are from the weaker sections. Forgot to mention there are also major scholarships/aid only for weaker sections.
i know a lot of people who didn't make it to being doctors because the seats moved to someone less qualified, thanks to the reservation system. No regrets, though.

me))))well itis limited. we want much mo radical than tat. token 'underclassians' being 'alloed' prestige careers etc. the very myth underlying not only India but all modern world needs looking at closely. whilst caste-system is ignored --a main root, we cant reall radicalize can we?

You are mixed up and emotional. Where did I talk about poverty? All I said is that with general advancement, caste becomes a non-entity.

me))))))'general advancement' is politcal baloney speak. it is the'trickel down BS'....it's been tried here, the States, elsewhere and it dont work. what we NEED is to face our myths, which mans starting to really search roots of te poblem. otherwise its fiasco. just words masking corruption, and no real radical change


Phew, misconceptions!
And are you aware that caste system exists in Indian Christians and Muslims too?!
Yes. but tis thread's about mainly Indian evil hindu caste system!

So will you soon start two more threads on Indian evil Christian caste system and Indian evil Muslim caste system?

So will you soon start two more threads on Indian evil Christian caste system and Indian evil Muslim caste system?
so, you are suggesting i am being racist towards Indian Hindus right?

no i attack efery one...hehe

all those you mentioned. if you familiar with what i explore , its more thepatriarchy, which is a mindset that doesn't just belong to a creed, clour, religion eat. it is all over

remember in opening post i said how great inspirers for social change like Martin Luther King, Mandella, etc have not mentioned about Indian caste system....i have been wondering why. and bringing out bout it in debate

thing is when someting aint faced it isn't there. and also mythic propaganda keeps it invisible to. but it's real and is here

Duendy

Good thread...but it is kinda very old ..it is like saying Church allowed the slaying of Jews and providing sanctuary to Nazi officers ..

When was the last time you checked up on the actual ground reality of the Country called India ..and the Hindu's living there with other religious community in peace. Caste system is a culture which was formed out of religious Aryan books ..thousands of years old ...India has done a lot after its independence from foreign rulers in the last 50 years...Compare the progress to other western civilization who all got their indendence from foreign rulers 200 + years ... Blacks were given rights to vote I believe in 1950 ..but the discrimination was abolished in 1968 ..almost 200 years after independence..

I agree the caste system was wrong and the government is doing a lot to get the oppressed class be back on their feet. But you are quoting a very extreme political site which can be compared to Black Panther party here in US. HIndu's are the only liberal religion on this planet earth ..they have never incited any religious hatred and occupation of any country ...in their rich history of over 7000 years ...

Please deal with following before pointing fingers to hindu society peacefully coexisting on this planet

Xianity - Talk of forced conversion, torture in middle ages, brain washing the down trodden by handing them bread in one had and bible in another ..Raiding other countries ..killing non-whites ..( Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Korea) ..these doings come from Bible followers

Islam - we all know about Islam's contribution to Mankind (Terrorism, Suppression of Women rights, fundamentalism, theocracy)

Judaism - Peaceful community but still lives on occupied land..

Guru, on message boards we call those "red herrings" and "attempts of derailing the topic". I think we should stick to talking about Hinduism here. There are plenty of other threads for bashing the three heavenly religions :p

Now, while it can certainly be argued that the hindu caste system isn't in itself racist or opressive, since the castes are supposed to be considered of equal value and status - I really doubt that this ideal has ever been, or could ever be, put in practise. And I'd say that the caste system today is in many cases racist and in all cases somewhat opressive. Which is why I support it being illegal.

Ok, the only point is why argue about somethin long past in history... like why did the british invade India.

U cant talk about the caste system without talking to an indian.
Here is the truth about the caste system.
Originally the caste system was not so corrupt. It was based on the qualities students possessed when they completed their education (gurukula). The most clever and benovolent became the Brahmins and those who were more practically based became the shudras. This is over 2000 years ago before the system was corrupt. Over time the sons of brahmins became selfish and greedy. They wanted to get the same respect that their father's get without doing the work. This is the bad karma that was done by the kingdom of India that led to the downfall of the caste system. The caste system in itself is not so bad, in fact no society can exist without a caste system. A society must have simple workers (shudras), traders and businessmen(Vaishyas), some form of military for protection (kshatriyas) and some for of teaching and preaching force; in modern society this would be the scientists and proffessors (brahmins). This was the original hindu perspective over 2 thousand years ago, the fact that no society, with whatever political basis, can exist without these 4 classes.

And I'd say that the caste system today is in many cases racist and in all cases somewhat opressive. Which is why I support it being illegal.

Trust me i have been in India and i was born there. There is NO discrimination between castes nowadays and everyone minds there own business. It is almost completely abolished- give it two more generations and it will be gone.
(the evil caste system i mean, not the original idea)

Trust me i have been in India and i was born there. There is NO discrimination between castes nowadays and everyone minds there own business. It is almost completely abolished- give it two more generations and it will be gone.
(the evil caste system i mean, not the original idea)- Well, I've been studying social anthropology, and I've been taught that while it isn't big in the cities, it certainly is so far out in the countryside.

Oh, they should have stuck with the old Harappan civilization...

(the evil caste system i mean, not the original idea)You mean it was not originally hereditary? Are there any ancient texts that describe it otherwise.

evil you know whats evil? when you squash innocent bugs. they're creatures with feelings, as are we. why would it be more evil to kill a human than to kill 20 ants? Point is, it's nature your looking at. everywhere in nature there is suffering, and you can't stop it. destroy it somewhere, and it will pop up elsewhere.

Trust me i have been in India and i was born there. There is NO discrimination between castes nowadays and everyone minds there own business. It is almost completely abolished- give it two more generations and it will be gone.
(the evil caste system i mean, not the original idea)

Are you Hindi?

Yes i am Hindu. And the only bad aspect of it is the caste system, which is gradually disappearing. The rest of the religion is more peaceful. Hindus believe that the whole world is one family and so we should help one another, not find faults about others. (Not that i care what u think about this fact, may u continue to insult hinduism and see whether i flinch)

No, the caste system was not always hereditery-i would know as my parents are brahmins, but in this generation i dont belong to any caste until i start working. Check out this site written by an EXPERT in Hinduism, not an original dalit who does not know the full history of the caste system.
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Caste_System.htm

So, since it is Hindu's who are the ones controlling the caste system, why should anyone believe you, a Hindu?

what experience have u got of hinduism except the caste system? U enjoy insulting and denouncing everything about hinduism without even looking at the full picture-and i dont care so keep ur thoughts to urself

Do Hindus not get a say in a discussion about the caste system? Or do u see us as animals who do not deserve the priviledge of democracy? :mad:
In which case your attitude is no different to that of the caste system so i suggest u only talk when u feel u have both sides of the argument understood.

And another point- do i support the caste system? No, i find it just as evil as you do so thats why u should believe me.

And another point- do i support the caste system? No, i find it just as evil as you do so thats why u should believe me.

So, as a Hindu, what exactly are you doing to rid the world of the caste system?

Are you part of the solution or the problem?

I am a believer in Mahatma Gandhi. Therefore i am obviously the solution. I have joined an organisation called RSS (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh) in which all hindus (irrespective of caste) are allowed to join. We generally believe in the inspiration of new generation heroes and we wish to make hindus more knowledgable about hinduism and bring unity within hindus of different sects. This can hardly work if members of different castes refuse to work together in friendship and harmony, can it now?

Just to give u some idea RSS is the largest voluntary organisation in the world. VOLUNTARY yes, i do it out of my own spirit. Here is some general information about the organisation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh
And here is proof that RSS is against the evils of the caste system, but believe that the caste system is only evil due to the greediness of son's of brahmins that i have already mentioned.http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1507163/posts

No, the caste system was not always hereditery-i would know as my parents are brahmins, but in this generation i dont belong to any caste until i start working. Check out this site written by an EXPERT in Hinduism, not an original dalit who does not know the full history of the caste system.
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Caste_System.htm
Thanks for the link. It does give some compelling scriptural evidence for what you say, but interestingly, it states that the caste system was not defined anywhere in the Vedas, so it must be a later development within Hinduism.

One text I have read which does uphold the strict hereditary nature of caste division is the Laws of Manu.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manusmriti

"Thanks for the link. It does give some compelling scriptural evidence for what you say, but interestingly, it states that the caste system was not defined anywhere in the Vedas, so it must be a later development within Hinduism."

Exactly! Thats what i have been trying to say. Originally the caste system was a simple way in which society is run, just like in today's society. The reason for actually having a caste system (even though in those days it was nothing more than the way society runs) is that Hindus believe in a concept called karma-yoga.

"If any man does his duty in society, without critisising others and without expecting reward from others but doing it because he wishes well for humanity and generally wants to help others, it is equivelent to the worship of the Lord (Bhagavad gita)"

The same is mentioned in the Vedas as well. However, one may ask "what is one's duty" and to clarify that the caste system was introduced (varnashramdharma). In other words a brahmin's duty is to guide the other castes on the spiritual path, a kshatriya's duty is to protect the people of the kingdom from hostile invaders, a vaishya's duty is to provide services and trading facilities (i.e. supermarkets, hospitals etc) for the people, and the duty of the shudras is to work to create a better environment and place for everyone's benefit. This is what the caste system was created out of.

Personally, I believe that most traditional societies have caste systems, and they are really defined by the spectrum of human qualities.

In Indian philosophy there are said to be three levels - sattva, rajas and tamas. When I first read about this through Sri Aurobindo I found that it matched perfectly with my own observations of people.

In a way, it is somewhat hereditary because according to Indian ideas of reincarnation the soul wil gravitate towards like minded parents. But of course there are always many exceptions.

I believe that caste systems are only marginally related to the organization of 'duties'...I think it has more to do with segregation and such systems are always created from the top down.

bwahahahahaha@C7


Rick

SEE: Caste System is Racism, Fascism and Nazism www.ambedkar.org/News/Cssacndzsm.htm

As author states, even major figures who have greatly suffered racism and have inspired challenge and change, such as Martin Luther KIng, and Mandella, have not eeven mentioned the Caste System of India!

Its influence is really far reaching. te New Age nearly all look to te East for their insoiration , and most of that came from the likes of Theosophy, Madam Blavasky and her racist idea of 'root races, which inspired the nazis..!

And tis idea is basically endemic throughout patriarchal cultures.

So read article--which is rightly VERY passionate--and share you views about this
enormous issue affecting R E A L people, freely.

You do realize the whole "Caste sytem" thing ended, uh, a while ago, right? It's technically illegal due to the constitution of the Republic of India. It still exists in surrounding countries, but not India anymore.

The fact that it's illegal doesn't mean it doesn't exist...

I dont know : Go find pieces of your damm brain and listen : stop smoking, there's NO CASTE DISCRIMINATION IN INDIA,
and
Duendy :

are you from South or something? get a life doood


gaah
Rick

No topic of discussion.Thread closed.

http://www.sciforums.com/images/buttons/threadclosed.gif

I dont know : Go find pieces of your damm brain and listen : stop smoking, there's NO CASTE DISCRIMINATION IN INDIA, - Of course there is! The caste system in India is believed to be nearly 3000 years old - these things don't disappear overnight just because it's made illegal :p

Just look around and do some reading, I think ethnographies and articles about the caste system are pumped out pretty regularly :)

India has its problems, but the country is emerging. And, IMHO, they are far more enlightened than their Paki neighbors to the west. God, what a shithole Pakistan is.


Are you sure about that? last time I checked Pakis didn't bath in rivers and turned them into the worlds biggest sewer (Ganges) the Pakis also don't spear dung and imbibe the piss of the cow and claim it to be the Lord goddess.

Have you ever really read the Vedas, Upanishads, Smritis and Puranas (Ramayanaand Mahabharata)?

Your answer most probably will be: "No!" The Hindu mentality is such, that it usually accepts anything without questioning its authenticity. The reason is that for several centuries, the higher cast Brahmin has taught that the low caste Hindu has no right to question any discrepancies in Hindu beliefs and mythology. Therefore, to question anything or to seek answers concerning religious questions is not encouraged.

GODDESS PANCHALI
This goddess was married to five brothers. Which one would become the legitimate father of his child should she have one? Dr Charles says that instances of incest are common in Hindu scriptures.

Should you read the Ramayan you will come to the conclusion that it cannot be a God revealed book. On the other hand you will find materials of pornography, incest, lies, cheating etc.

The average Hindu is kept in the dark and in reality, he is ignorant on matters pertaining to Hindu beliefs. If he really reads the Ramayana, we challenge, he will be ashamed of his religion and himself for being a Hindu.

The Vedas say that the cow is holy and should be worshipped. These Brahmins also claim that cow dung ash has medicinal value. Samples sent to a leading test laboratory in West Germany have proved this to be untrue. Even today ignorant Hindus smear their homes with cow dung.

In India people are dying of hunger. Why are these low caste Hindus prohibited from eating beef? In India cow meat is cheaper than other available meats. Instead of these Brahmins taking care of the low caste peoples of India they are doing their best to save their "holy" cows. According to Valmith's Ramayana, God Rama "ATE" meat. Why then have these Brahmins given up beef-eating?

One erstwhile Prime Minister, Morarji Desai (Brahmin), boasted that he was drinking eight ounces of his own urine daily (pure and fresh!) in the morning in accordance with the Vedas claim that urine has medicinal value. With the same claim today the Brahmins/RSS are drinking cow's urine as if it is a DAILY TONIC. No scientists have ever claimed that urine has any medicinal value. On the contrary it is well known fact that urine is an unwanted organic substance that the human body needs to discharge. [Muslim's Note: This is just plain common sense!!!]

Hindus are dumping half-cremated bodies, and the ashes of these corpses, into River Ganges for their salvation as ordered by the Hindu scriptures. In other words, the Holy Ganges water is a human soup! This has made the Ganges water polluted and a breeding ground for numerous diseases.

Question: Is there anything similar to this water in America?

Answer: Yes there is! It is called raw sewage. And common sense tells one that sewage is not to be swam in, drank, nor utilized in sacred activity.


HINDU WOMAN
The Hindu woman has no right to divorce her husband.
She has no property or inheritance rights.
Choice of partner is limited because she can only marry within her own
caste; moreover her horoscope must match that of the intending bridegroom/family.
The family of the girl has to offer an enormous dowry to the bridegroom/family.
If her husband dies she should commit Sati (being cremated with her dead husband). Since today's law forbids Sati, society mainly punishes her in other "holy" ways (see below).
She can never remarry.
The widow is considered to be a curse and must not be seen in public. She cannot wear jewelry or colorful clothes. (She should not even take part in her children's marriage!)
Child and infant marriage is encouraged.

THE MUSLIM WOMAN
The Muslim lady has the same right as the Muslim man in all matters, including divorce.
She enjoys property and inheritance rights. (Which other religion grants women these rights?). She can also conduct her own separate business.
She can marry any Muslim of her choice. If her parents choose a partner for her, her consent has to be taken.
The dowry in Islam is a gift from a husband to his wife (not the other way round as is practiced by some ignoramuses).
A Muslim widow is encouraged to remarry, and her remarriage is the responsibility of the Muslim society.
Mixed marriage is encouraged and is a means to prevent racism creeping into society.
A Muslim mother is given the highest form of respect.
So you, you little cow worshiper don't talk crap about Pakistan, the Pakis are 10000000 X times better then Hindus!

Hindus are dumping half-cremated bodies, and the ashes of these corpses, into River Ganges for their salvation as ordered by the Hindu scriptures. In other words, the Holy Ganges water is a human soup! This has made the Ganges water polluted and a breeding ground for numerous diseases.

I've actually seen that on TV. Sandlewood trees are becoming scarce and expensive so some people cannot be completely burned and their bodies are cast into the river anyway.

Useless fact: Jerry Garcia's ashes were scattered into the Ganges by his friend and bandmate Bob Weir.

I've actually seen that on TV. Sandlewood trees are becoming scarce and expensive so some people cannot be completely burned and their bodies are cast into the river anyway.

Useless fact: Jerry Garcia's ashes were scattered into the Ganges by his friend and bandmate Bob Weir.


Yeah this is how stupid, these people are. You know what they say? the river cleans itself. lol

It is obvious that Muslim is a pakistani, and he doesnt like his country (anyways pakistan is a muslim state) or religion being ridiculed, i am an indian, and i know all the facts he states are bull shitting and indian women have no rights? bwahahahaah you are t3h gay, You fuckers ask women to close their faces and shit so that they dont ssay or do anything, you are fucking supporters of terrorism in kashmir and oh yea, hindus cremation, you are describing your fucking frustation here biatch, furthermore dont fucking try and mess with indians;

GO FUCK A GOAT.
PERIOD.
Rick

It is obvious that Muslim is a pakistani, and he doesnt like his country (anyways pakistan is a muslim state) or religion being ridiculed, i am an indian, and i know all the facts he states are bull shitting and indian women have no rights? bwahahahaah you are t3h gay, You fuckers ask women to close their faces and shit so that they dont ssay or do anything, you are fucking supporters of terrorism in kashmir and oh yea, hindus cremation, you are describing your fucking frustation here biatch, furthermore dont fucking try and mess with indians;

GO FUCK A GOAT.
PERIOD.
Rick


I like eating your god. lol hmmmmmm I love beef!

Typical dumb ass Hindu couldn't type anything original so just started talking out of his ass.

Hay don't you gotta go and burn some woman or something?

And by the way, Muslims ruled India for 1000 years The Taj Mahal was build my a Muslim for the love and affection for his wife. Unlike you guys who burn your woman, Muslims show love and and peace.


Hindus such as yourself always criticize, condemn and mock other Religions, and they actually have the nerve to try to mock Al-Islam. Their criticism and mocking is unreasonable and unacceptable. In his autobiography, Dr. Charles, an American scholar says that it is very simple to define a Hindu. He says a Hindu means "one who believes anything and everything if said in the name of God and shall never question its authenticity". The Brahmins claim that Lord Rama is incarnated (came in human form) to study and understand the difficulties of mankind. Is it really necessary for a god to incarnate Himself? Can He not understand His creation? Why should God become a donkey or a cockroach in order to understand the sufferings of these creatures?

Rama called his father "a FOOL, an IDIOT" (Ayodhya Kandam, 53 rd Chapter). The reader should bear in mind that in Al-Islam, it is a very serious sin to disrespect one's parents.

Lord Krishna was very fond of looking at naked young girls. Once upon a time Krishna, in order to get a full view of some bathing virgin girls, went to the extent of hiding their clothes on the tree tops just to get a panaromic view. Does behave divine immunity from looking at a naked woman?

The Gita, a Holy Book of the Hindus, quotes that when these bathing low caste girls begged for the return of their clothes. Lord Krishna demanded that they come out of the water with their hands raised instead of covering their bodies. Oh my innocent Hindu brethren! Can this action be attributed to a god? Is this god capable of indulging in such ungodly acts? Surely, if their deity is "divine," then it should be able to easily restrain its passions.

ok, so yea, i fucked ur mom, then?

whteva kid, have fun back in your asylum

Are you sure about that? last time I checked Pakis didn't bath in rivers ...
Yes, I hear they don't bathe much and rely on the perfume industry.

Hindus such as yourself always criticize, condemn and mock other Religions...
:D You say that?!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

THE MUSLIM WOMAN
The Muslim lady has the same right as the Muslim man in all matters, including divorce....
Ha ha ha Muslim, how can you be so dumb? This is not a thread to save the muslim woman. So don't expose yourself naked voluntarily!
So you, you little cow worshiper don't talk crap about Pakistan, the Pakis are 10000000 X times better then Hindus!....
Again, India and Pakistan are countries; Hinduism and Islam are religions. You need to understand what you talk. :p

I can see hinduism is too much to take for your little head. Just ignore it and rest in peace.

P.S.: This isn't a thread on Hinduism vs. Islam either. Please do your copy-paste in other threads. I understand it isn't easy for you to distinguish threads, but please try. Thanks.

Yes, I hear they don't bathe much and rely on the perfume industry.


:D You say that?!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D


Ha ha ha Muslim, how can you be so dumb? This is not a thread to save the muslim woman. So don't expose yourself naked voluntarily!

Again, India and Pakistan are countries; Hinduism and Islam are religions. You need to understand what you talk. :p

I can see hinduism is too much to take for your little head. Just ignore it and rest in peace.

P.S.: This isn't a thread on Hinduism vs. Islam either. Please do your copy-paste in other threads. I understand it isn't easy for you to distinguish threads, but please try. Thanks.


Don't post shit about Muslims and call names at Pakistanis. Then others wouldn't do that to you - fucking Karma ini? lol

Hitting at bad is good Karma! :)

BTW, no shit has been posted about Muslims here- we have good muslim friends too.

You are exposing yourself and getting yourself into shit, neck deep.
Thanks.

I read somewhere that during the Aryan invasion in India they introduced the caste system to the hindus.

muslim : i believe you have nothing better to do at home, so yea again go figure what to do; it is people like muslim who are ideal candidates for becoming extremists, since they have nothing better to do at hands.

Live in your circumsized shell
Rick

Hindus such as yourself always criticize, condemn and mock other Religions, and they actually have the nerve to try to mock Al-Islam. Their criticism and mocking is unreasonable and unacceptable.I like eating your god. lol hmmmmmm I love beef!

Typical dumb ass Hindu couldn't type anything original so just started talking out of his ass.

Hay don't you gotta go and burn some woman or something? - :l

This religious intolerance is disgusting. Muslim, grow some decency. Zion, Muslim probably isn't even a Muslim ... choosing a username like that smacks of troll.

No, he's definitely a Muslim. I've seen a picture of him and his mates drinking Bacardi Breezers.

ok, let me explain a little about misconception that several people have about hinduism, it is often said that hindus dont eat meat or anything, this is absolutely wrong or non-knowledgable, most south indians have added meat to their chiefly rice diet.
Also you have to understand that it is a matter of personal interest, lot of Americans today are vegan by choice(which is kind of bull shit in my opinion, if you are serious about living a healthy and long life).

Thirdly,
Meat has naturally occuring creatine, you wont wanna miss it, but at the same time it has a lot of fats etc. (more on Health/Fitness later, being an experienced)

Rick

Even though the caste system in India is now illegal, people still live by it and many innocent people are being discriminated. The gov't of course is trying to help out however the mindset of alot of people is hard to change esp. because the caste system was around for a long time. Some people are not willing to give up their position of power to someone considered lower caste.

I have lived in NYC, for an year now, there are people who still discriminate on the basis of race in the city, but does that mean everyone else does?

More to emphasize : just because one Muslim is like the one here on sciforums, doesnt mean that all muslims are like that, so yea its his personal opinion.

Rick

I read somewhere that during the Aryan invasion in India they introduced the caste system to the hindus.

When are you going to realize the Aryan invasion of India is a myth? it was the Indians who transported the indo-European language to Europe not the other way around. How long is this going to carry on for :confused:

ok, let me explain a little about misconception that several people have about hinduism, it is often said that hindus dont eat meat or anything, this is absolutely wrong or non-knowledgable, most south indians have added meat to their chiefly rice diet.
Also you have to understand that it is a matter of personal interest, lot of Americans today are vegan by choice(which is kind of bull shit in my opinion, if you are serious about living a healthy and long life).

Thirdly,
Meat has naturally occuring creatine, you wont wanna miss it, but at the same time it has a lot of fats etc. (more on Health/Fitness later, being an experienced)

Rick

Hypocrites. ;)

Whats happened know since i was away? Let me guess-a muslim is trying to turn the discussion about the cast system into an attack on hinduism.

- Of course there is! The caste system in India is believed to be nearly 3000 years old - these things don't disappear overnight just because it's made illegal :p

Just look around and do some reading, I think ethnographies and articles about the caste system are pumped out pretty regularly :)

You are being too simplistic. Indian culture is over 4000 years old. Over this period, India has sustained innumerable invasions from diverse cultures ranging from the Aryans to the Greeks, Mughals, Dutch, French, Portuguese and of course, the British.

What is different about India is that inspite of ALL these invasions, Indians have maintained their identity, their culture, even their customs food and language. To give a very succint example, there are 18 official languages and around 200 dialects spoken in India. At the same time they have also integrated the cultures, language and customs of their invaders, e.g. the Jews in India are unable to identify with the concept of Jewish discrimination as experienced by Jews in other parts of the world, because they have no experince of it !

How is this possible? Well,by respecting that everyone has a right to his/her own religion.

Besides, Hindus, Muslims, Parsis ( Persians who migrated to India following the advent of Islam), Christians ( the oldest sect of Syrian Christians is based in India) all prefer to maintain their separate identities. These identities are defined not by religion alone, even among the Hindus, but are also representative of differences in history, costume, cuisine and class structures.

The caste system in Hindus is based on a stratification of society on occupational bases. This was largely because of the very compact nature of the Indian joint family system where the son would follow the occupation of his father; over time this led to divisions in society based on economic and social differences arising from these choices ( I don't know anything about the establishment of the caste system, so I am not going to comment on that), an led to feelings of inclusiveness and exclusiveness based on the perceived importance of said social groups.

The fallout of this was a good idea gone bad; Muslims and Christians were not unaffected by this social stratification and in fact there are different sub-classes in Indian Muslims and Christians, and they preferred not to inter-marry.

With the advent of urbanization and modernization, however, and subsequent to the formation of a Republic, there has a steady erosion in the caste system.

Not surprisingly, the degree of erosion is linked to the break-up of the traditional family system and deviation from family based occupations.

Again, due to differences in languages and cuisine ( vegetarian vs. non-vegetarian) and even customs and practices, the natural human tendency to resist change means that the mingling of the castes is slow.

There is a great deal deal of tolerance in the Indian psyche, however, and if you consider the exploding population with its extreme economic and social consequences, why I do believe that India is doing a very good job of it.

I am an Indian and a Muslim and very proud of it.

Hi All...what a limited discussion...the caste system in India goes beyond just Hinduism. It existed before what you call Hinduism was formed and goes right across religion in India. A few have said that the duendy is a Muslim. If this is true then your hate is understandable as hate is constitutional within Islam.My appologies if you are not.

But for the non haters and the GOOD people who want to understand, I offer you the following C&P as a more realistic explination of the nature of caste within India.
The non-Hindus in caste system
Religiously anyone who does not belong to the four Varnas is an outcast and untouchable. It means, all foreigners and non-Hindus are all supposed to be untouchables. But in reality neither all foreigners nor non-Hindus were treated as untouchables. Foreigners and non-Hindus were treated differently in different parts of India. Some of the foreigners adopted Hinduism and integrated in the upper level of the Hindu hierarchy.

The Rajputs of Rajasthan belong to the Kshatria Varna (warrior castes). The Rajputs, more than any other Indian Jat, represent the warrior castes of India. Almost any Indian community which claims to be a warrior community, claims a Rajput ancestry. But it is believed that many foreign invaders of ancient India (see- India in the past), like Scythians; Huns; Greeks and others, who adopted Hinduism, integrated in the Rajput community and acquired a Kshatria status (see also Sati - burning of the widow).

The Konkanash Brahmans of west India are also believed to have non- Indian descent. According to a Hindu legend, an incarnation of Lord Vishnu, Parsuram, found on the Konkan beach some dead bodies which were washed to the shore. In order to cremate them Parsuram gathered them on a pyre. These dead bodies woke up on pyre, probably because they were not dead in the first place but were only unconscious. Parsuram converted these people to Hinduism and made them Brahmans. There are other theories about the origins of these Kokanasth Brahmans. Many of these Brahmans have gray-green eyes. Some claim them to be Vikings or of other European origin. In the Konkan coast there is Jewish community called Bene Israel. Some claim that these Jews are from the 'Lost Tribes'. These Jews who arrived in India after their ship-wrecked near the Konkan coast claim that they and the Kokanastha Brahmans are descendants of the survivals from the same ship. And in their version, it was not an incarnation of Lord Vishnu who converted the Kokanastha Brahmans but a local Brahman. Anyway these Jews do not have gray-green eyes like the Kokanastha Brahmans.

Different religion followers got different status in different parts of India. The Jews of west India (called Bene Israel) had a different status from Jews of south India (Cochini Jews). The Bene Israels professed oil pressing and they had a status equal to a Hindu Jat called Somwar Teli, which also professed oil pressing and were part of Sudra Varna. Some orthodox Hindus treated anyone who wasn't one of them as untouchable and therefore treated the Jews also as untouchables. But even though the Jews in west India had low status there were among them some who were landlords, businessmen and high rank officers in local armies.

Comparing to the Bene Israels, the Jews in south India had higher status. The Jews in Kerala were the business community of Kerala. They even ruled a small principality. They had aristocratic rights, such as use of elephants and sedans. They even had servants whose job was to announce their coming to the streets so that the low castes could move away from their way.

The relations between the Jewish communities of India are sometimes explained as affected by the Indian caste system but these relations can also be explained according to Jewish religious laws. There were three main Jewish communities in India. The Baghdadis, the Bene Israels and Cochinis. The Baghdadi Jews were much strict about religious laws than the Bene Israel Jews. The Baghdadis did not mingle with Bene Israel Jews. The Baghdadis did not allow marriages between their children and the children of Bene Israel. They did not eat food prepared by Bene Israel and they refused to count the Bene Israel as part of the Minyan (the ten necessary to start a Jewish prayer). Many explain these relations as an influence of the Indian caste system on the Jewish communities. According to this explanation, the Baghdadi Jews referred to themselves as higher caste than the Bene Israel Jews and therefore did not mingle with them. But these relations between the Jewish communities can also be explained according to the Jewish Halacha laws. The Baghdadi Jews who were much strict about Jewish laws and diet did not mingle with the Bene Israels because the Bene Israels were secular Jews and they perceived in Bene Israel Jews as impure Jews.

The Muslims who arrived in India were strong and powerful to be treated as untouchables. Not only were they strong in the military sense, they also tried to enforce their religion on the Indians. The Indians who converted to Islam in most of the cases remained in the same social status as they had before their conversion to Islam. Hindus from the higher Varnas remained at the higher levels of Indian society. Hindus from the lower levels of the hierarchy thought that by converting to Islam they would come out from the Hindu hierarchy system, but in most of the cases they remained in the same hierarchy level after they converted. Among the Muslims of India there has developed a two-tier hierarchy. The upper class, called Sharif Jat, includes Muslims who belonged to the higher levels in caste hierarchy and also Muslims who arrived to India from foreign countries. The lower class, called Ajlaf Jat, includes Muslim converts from lower castes. As in the world, the upper classes do not have close social relations with lower classes, the same way the Sharif Jat do not normally have close social relations with Ajlaf Jat.

The different Christian communities of India were treated in different ways in different parts of India. The Syrian Christians of Kerala had a high status. Along with the Jews, they were the business communities of Kerala and they too had aristocratic rights. The Indians who were baptized from the 16th century by Christian missionaries remained mostly in the same status they had before. As in the Muslim community of India, the Christians also have a two-tier social hierarchy. Many untouchables who converted to Christianity are still treated as untouchables, sometimes by other Christians.

The European Christians are also supposed to be untouchables to Hindus. Some Europeans in the 17th and 18th century even claimed that they were treated as untouchables. But later on with British rule over India it were the upper level Hindu castes, specially the Brahmans, who adopted the European democratic philosophy according to which all are equal and they introduced it to other Indians.

Other religions which were established in India - Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism - also have some marks of caste system, even though they oppose caste system. Sikhism rejects caste system. But different Jats who adopted Sikhism act according to traditional Jat lines. The different Jats normally marry within caste lines. The Jats which were the elite of the Punjab and converted to Sikhism do not give equal respect to Sikhs who belong to the lower levels of Indian hierarchy. The Jains also have separate communities who marry within the community lines. The Buddhist in India have a two-tier hierarchy and just like in the cases of Christians and Muslims it is also related to the status of the community to whom the person belongs. On the other hand the Mahar community of west India, who were untouchables and converted mostly to Buddhism, prefer, because of different political reasons to recognize themselves as Mahars and not always as Buddhists.

Not all residents of India were part of the caste system. About 7% of India's population are referred to as tribes and not as castes or Jats. These tribes are scattered all around India and they are descendants of communities who were not interested in the Varna hierarchy. They preferred to live away from the main societies deep in the jungles, forests and mountains of India. They survived mostly on fishing, hunting or simple agriculture, and also from stealing, robbing and plundering. These tribes had different religious beliefs and different gods. Some of them had simple beliefs, but others use to sacrifice human beings in their ceremonies. One such tribe, called Gond, had a strong kingdom in central India. Most of the tribes adopted Hinduism, others adopted Islam or Christianity. Some tribes in East India claim to Jewish origin.

If this is true then your hate is understandable as hate is constitutional within Islam :rolleyes:

Otherwise, one of the better representations of Indian culture.

The Muslims who arrived in India were strong and powerful to be treated as untouchables. Not only were they strong in the military sense, they also tried to enforce their religion on the Indians.

Not true, they ruled the Indian subcontinent for almost 200 years but influenced the architecture more than they did the religion. Only Jahangir, son of Akbar, enforced conversions to Islam, which was ironic, because his mother was a HIndu.

The Mughal ruling class were Muslims, but most of the subjects of the Empire were Hindu.


These Muslims were Mongols (Mughal is the Persian word of for Mongol) who ruled most of the Indian Subcontinent, then known as Hindustan, and parts of what is now Afghanistan, between 1526 and 1707). Their religion was Islam. One of the most famous of the Mughal kings in India is Akbar, who was not only of liberal disposition but also intimately acquainted, since birth, with the mores and traditions of India. Under Akbar's rule, the court abolished the jizya (the poll-tax on non-Muslims) and abandoned use of the lunar Muslim calendar in favor of a solar calendar more useful for agriculture. One of Akbar's most unusual ideas regarding religion was Din-i-Ilahi ("Faith-of-God" in English), which was an eclectic mix of Hinduism, versions of Sufi Islam, Zoroastrianism and Christianity. It was proclaimed the state religion until his death.

Another famous Mughal is Shah Jahan who is known primarily for the Taj Mahal, which he built as a memorial to his wife, Mumtaz
http://www.placesidratherbe.com/Taj%20Mahal.jpg

I doubt that any Indian today thinks of the Taj as a Muslim monument.

The Mughal period would see a more fruitful blending of Indian, Iranian and Central Asian artistic, intellectual and literary traditions than any other in Indian history. The Mughals had taste for the fine things in life - for beautifully designed artifacts and the enjoyment and appreciation of cultural activities. However, the Hindus of India provided the Mughals with a richer philosophy and the plentiful spices which were incorporated into modern Indian life. While the Mughals' superior position may have been appreciated, in reality, they borrowed as much as they gave.

More confusions in the Indian caste system:

The Confusing Caste System

The confusion in the caste system begins by the use of the word caste. The Indians in their different languages use the word 'Jat' for any community who have something common like religion, language, origin, similar geographical background and so on. The Indians also use the word 'Jat' for Varna. The Portuguese who were the first European power to arrive in India distorted the word 'Jat' into caste. The British who arrived to India much later after the Portuguese also used the word caste. The British used the word Caste instead of Jat and Varna. And so sometimes in English the caste system is explained in a confusing way according to which, the caste system consists of four castes which are divided into many castes. Sometimes in English the word caste is used for Varna and the word sub-caste for Jat. In this section to prevent confusion we will use the words Varna and Jat.

And now we will see the complication in the caste system itself.

Each Varna consists of many communities called Jats. Each Varna does consist of different Jats but many of these Jats break up into more communities and each such community refers to itself as different or unique Jat. There are different reasons for these different communities within each Jat. One reason can be the different occupations each community within the Jat professes. Other reasons can be inter-Jat political reasons. Many Jats consists of millions of people and it also causes break up of the larger community into smaller communities. There are also Jats which originate from different parts of India and profess the same profession and therefore get a common name, even though they are not one single community. For example the Jats that profess cloth washing are called collectively as Dhobi. For non- Dhobis the Dhobis are one Jat but within them they are not one community.

The hierarchy between the Varnas. All the Jats accept that the Brahman Varna is the highest Varna in the hierarchy and the untouchables are outcast and lowest in the hierarchy. But most of the Jats in different Varnas claim to be superior and higher than other Jats. Some of the Jats as stated earlier break up into smaller communities or Jats. In these Jats that break up into different communities, there are communities that look at themselves as superior or higher in hierarchy than other communities. Among the Brahman Varna, there are Jats that consider themselves as superior than other Brahman Jats. Some of the Brahman Jats break up into smaller communities, and between these communities within the Jat there also exist a hierarchy.

Among the other Varnas there also exists hierarchy phenomenon. Different Jats claim to be superior than the other Jats in their Varna. Some Jats in the Vaisia and Sudra Varnas also claim to be closer or equal in hierarchy to the Brahman Varna. These Jats that claim this status adopted Brahman customs like vegetarian diet and strict observance of purity and cleanliness. Some Jats claim to be closer to Kshatria, which is the warrior class of the Indian society. The Marathas in west India and Reddys in south India were among the Jats which claimed Kshatria status.

Among the outcast there was also the superior status phenomenon in which one outcast Jat considered itself as superior and did not have physically contact with other outcast Jats which it considered as inferior. For example the Mahars in west India considered themselves superior than Dhed and they did not mingle with the Dheds.

Each Jat professes an occupation worthy of its Varna status. In most of the cases there was a connection between a persons profession and his Varna. Among the different Varnas there also developed guilds based on Jat lines, professing specific professions. In west India the Jat that professed oil pressing were called Somwar Teli. Another Jat members were the shepherds of the society and they were called Dhangar. Another Jat members were the cowherds of the society and they were called Gaoli. The Kunbis were the peasants of the society.

But some of the professions had different status in different parts of India and they were located at different levels in the caste hierarchy. For example Dhobis (washers) in north India were seen as untouchables. While in west India they had Sudra status. The oil pressers in east India were seen as untouchables, in central India they had a high status while in west India they had Sudra status.

There were also many cases where the Jat members did not profess occupation worthy of their Varna. Many Brahmans, who are supposed to be the priest and learned of the society, did not find jobs as priests or did not manage to feed their families as priests and therefore worked as simple farmers. On the other hand there were many Brahmans who were landlords and businessmen, professions supposed to belong to the Vaisia Varna.

Also among the other Varnas not all professed the occupations worthy of their Varna. In west India the Maratha were the warriors and the aristocracy. Originally the Marathas belonged to the different Jats in west India. Most of these Jats were in Sudra level. But the Marathas who became the aristocracy of west India claimed and acquired the Kshatria status. In the 17th and the 18th century the Marathas even established an empire which ruled large parts of India. During the Maratha reign members of a Brahman Jat, Kokanastha Brahman, were ministers. From 1750 these Brahmans became the rulers of the Maratha Empire.

Like the Marathas there were other communities which, religiously did not belong to the Kshatria status but acquired this status. The Reddy in Andra Pradesh and Nayar in Kerala are such two examples.

Religiously marriage occurs within the Jat. The different Jats members almost always respected this rule and people who dared break this rule were outcasted. But this rule also had exceptions. Usually the higher Varnas were very strict about this custom. But in some of the higher level Jats of the society, they used to have polygamy. In these cases, because of scarcity of women, men use to marry women from the lower levels of the society.

In some Indian societies between-jat marriage was even an acceptable feature. One such example of marriages existed in Kerala, in south India. In Kerala, Nayar women (aristocracy community) married men from Numbodiri Brahman community.

Another problem considering the Jat marriage was the internal structure of the Jats. As stated earlier some Jats break up into smaller communities. In most of the cases each such community members marry only with members of their own community and not with other community members within the Jat. In some cases there is a hierarchy between the different communities of the same Jat. In such cases a daughter from the lower community could marry a son from the higher community but not vice versa.

Each Varna had different diet. Hinduism has many strict dietary rules. In general the higher Jats are more strict about their dietary customs than the lower Jats. The Brahman Jats have the most strict dietary customs. They will not eat in lower Jats homes or even with lower Jats (because of this reason many restaurants hired Brahman cooks). The Brahman diet is supposed to include only vegetarian food. Jats who claimed Brahman status also adopted vegetarian diet of the Brahmans. But there are some Brahman Jats who traditionally eat meat, fish, chicken and egg (which is considered non-vegetarian). Some Brahman Jats in Kashmir, Orissa, Bengal and Maharashtra traditionally eat meat. But this meat was never cattle meat.

Jat is determined by birth and it cannot be changed. In the beginning the caste system was not a strict system and people could move from one Varna to another. Indologists give different dates to this period of change. Some claim the change occurred around 500 B. C. and other claim 500 A. D. Until then, communities and even singular person moved from one Varna to another Varna, because of their desire to adopt different occupations. There were some kings who belonged the Kshatria (warrior castes) and changed their status to become religious Brahmans. There were also who changed their status to become warriors. And even after the caste system was organized in a strict manner there were many communities who did not always follow their status occupations. There was a case of a Jat that lost its high status because they did not profess the profession worthy of their Varna. The Kayastha of east and north east India originally belonged to the Kshatria Varna (warrior caste). Some time in the past among warriors communities, there developed a bureaucratic unit whose job was writing and listing war events and they were called Kayasthas. Because these unit members were not warriors, they were excluded from the Kshatria status and were given a lower status. But the Kayasthas even today claim Kshatria status.

The Jat status. Jats like Kayastha, Reddy, Maratha, Nayar and others changed the basic four-fold hierarchy caste system. These Jats had high status but their exact status is not clear and different communities give different interpretations to their status of different Jats. As stated earlier different Jats claim theirs to be the superior than the other Jats and therefore the caste system even today is not always interpreted objectively by Indians but subjectively. For example the Kayastha claim themselves to be Kshatria while others do not always agree with this claim. Among the Marathas the confusion is even greater. In the narrow sense the Jat of Maratha applies to 96 clans who ruled and governed the parts of west India. Originally the Maratha clans belonged to different levels of Indian hierarchy. They mostly belonged to different Jats of Sudra. But many Jats of west Maharashtra claim that they are Marathas too. Sometimes the Kokanastha Brahmans (who were ministers of Maratha empire in 18th century and later on continued the Maratha Empire and their reign) are also introduced as Marathas causing a greater confusion in Maratha definition.

The reasons stated above are among the few reasons that causes confusion in understanding the caste system.

[QUOTE=samcdkey]:rolleyes:

Hey dont roll your eyes at me!! lol ;) Sorry bout the disparaging re-marks about muslims...I should have said that SOME Muslims are haters of anything other then Islam.

hate is not a good state to be.

Amen

You are being too simplistic.- I was being simple, but I wouldn't say I was simplistic. After all, the topic isn't the entire Indian culture, just the caste system.

Now the thread title, on the other hand, that's simplistic.

- I was being simple, but I wouldn't say I was simplistic. After all, the topic isn't the entire Indian culture, just the caste system.

Now the thread title, on the other hand, that's simplistic.


Aaaheeemmmm!

Simplistic

Adjective

1. Unrealistically simple. (Webster's)

as in looking at the caste system without the context in which it exists

I'm a nit picker :p !!

Hi Me again!

duendy..whilst we are on the subject of Racism...regarding India's neighbors

The Tribune India
September 2, 200

Sindhis ‘Victims of Racism’ in Pakistan
*

Durban, September 1
Lashing out at Pakistan for subjecting the Sindhi community to the “ravages of racism”, the US-based World Sindhi Institute (WSI) today said Islamabad was denying them their legitimate right to self-determination.
*

“The indigenous people of Indus having roots in the third millennium BC are being subjected to racism in the Third Millennium AD, while the so-called civilized and democratic world of today stands merely as a silent spectator,” WSI Executive Director Munawar Laghari said here.
*
Mr Laghari, who is in exile in Washington for the past 10 years, has been invited as a delegate to the ongoing World Conference Against Racism here to represent the WSI which has been granted NGO accreditation.
*
The ruling elite in Pakistan was treating the Sindhi people as second class citizens, he alleged.
*
Mr Laghari, who maintained that he would be “arrested and killed” if he returned to Pakistan, said the “fundamentalist rulers” they were adamant on building a dam on the Indus river against the wishes of the Sindhi people, which could convert Sindh into a desert.
*
Mr Laghari said “three million Sindhi Hindus in Sindh are surviving sans security to their life, honour and property”. PTI

It's obviously something in the water in that part of the world........So when do you propose that positive discrimination will happen for the Sindhis...as it's happening in India for the Dalits???????? Go on...have a go at a guess..... :bugeye:

And more....this focuses on "Dalit Muslims"
The 'Dalit Muslims': Who Are They?

Most Indian Muslims are descendants of ' untouchable and 'low' caste converts, with only a small minority tracing their origins to Arab, Iranian and Central Asian settlers and invaders. Although the Qur’an is fiercely egalitarian in its social ethics, Indian Muslim society is characterised by numerous caste-like features, consisting of several caste-like groups (jatis). Muslims who claim foreign descent claim a superior status for themselves as ashraf or 'noble'. Descendants of indigenous converts are, on the other hand, commonly referred to contemptuously as ajlaf or 'base' or 'lowly'. As among the Hindus, the various jatis among the ajlaf Muslims maintain a strong sense of jati identity. The emergence of democratic politics is, however, bringing about a radical change in the manner in which this sense of identity is articulated. Aware of the importance of numbers in order to acquire political power and the economic benefits that accrue from it, the Dalit movement has sought to establish a wider sense of Dalit identity that transcends inter-caste and inter-religious divisions and differences among the ‘lower’ caste majority. This wider Dalit identity does not seek to deny individual jati identities. Rather, it takes them into account but seeks to subsume them within the wider collective Dalit identity, based on a common history of suffering as well as common racial origins as indigenous people. This seems to have been a crucial factor in the emergence of a specific 'Dalit Muslim' identity that the AIBMM seeks to articulate. 'Lower' caste Muslim ideologues and activists in the AIBMM are now in the process of fashioning a new 'Dalit Muslim' identity, seeking to bring all the 'lower' caste Muslims under one umbrella, defined by their common identity as Muslim as well as Dalit.

The All-India Backward Muslim Morcha

The AIBMM was set up in 1994 by Ejaz Ali, a young Muslim medical doctor from Patna, capital of the eastern state of Bihar, belonging to the Kunjera caste of Muslim vegetable-sellers. Bihar, India's poorest state, is notorious for its acute caste problem and for its frequent anti-Dalit pogroms. Consequently, the Dalits in Bihar have been among the first to take to militant forms of struggle. The Muslims of Bihar, who form over fifteen per cent of the state's population, are also characterised by sharp caste divisions. The plight of Bihar's Dalit Muslims, whom the AIBMM estimates at forming almost ninety per cent of the state's Muslim population and consisting of twenty-nine different caste groups, is particularly pathetic. 1 Most Bihari Dalit Muslims work as daily wage labourers, manual workers, artisans and petty peasants, barely managing to eke out an existence.

According to Ali, the plight of the overwhelming majority of the Muslims of Bihar, as well as an acute awareness of the limitations of the traditional Muslim leadership, suggested to him the need for the establishment of the AIBMM to struggle for the rights of the Dalit Muslims. He regards the destruction of the Babri mosque at Ayodhya in 1992 as a landmark event in this regard, seeing the traditional, and largely 'upper' caste, Muslim leadership as having only further complicated matters by playing into the hands of Hindu militants and as 'misleading' the Muslim masses for their own petty gains.

In less than a decade of its founding, by early 2001 the AIBMM had emerged as an umbrella group of over forty organisations claiming to represent various different Dalit Muslim castes. It now has branches in the states of Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, West Bengal, Delhi, Rajasthan and Maharashtra, in addition to Bihar, where it has its headquarters.

Aims and Objectives of the AIBMM:
The foremost priority for the AIBMM is to get recognition from the Indian state for the over 100 million 'Dalit Muslims' as Scheduled Castes so that they can avail of the same benefits that the Hindu, Sikh and Buddhist Scheduled castes enjoy, including reserved government jobs, reserved seats in state legislatures and in the Indian Parliament, special courts to try cases of atrocities against them as well as social and economic development programmes meant specially for them. According to Indian law as it stands at present, only those Dalits who claim to be Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists can be considered to be members of the Scheduled Castes and thereby eligible for the special benefits that the state has made available to these castes. The AIBMM sees this as violating the basic secular character of the Indian Constitution. It insists that its demand for Scheduled Caste status for 'Dalit Muslims' is fully in consonance with the spirit of the Indian Constitution. Recognising the fact that demands for special legal status for Muslims have been viewed in the past as 'separatist' and 'anti-national' and even ‘pro-Pakistan’, the AIBMM is careful to project its demands as aimed at integrating the 'Dalit Muslim' into the 'national mainstream' by enabling them to progress economically and socially, along with other deprived sections of the Indian population. Besides being considered 'anti-secular', the law as it stands today is also condemned by the AIBMM as a gross violation of human rights. Furthermore,it is seen as a ploy to keep the more than one hundred million Dalit Muslims in perpetual thraldom, a conspiracy in which both the Hindu as well as Muslim 'upper' caste elite are seen as being involved. Because they have been denied Scheduled Caste status and the benefits that accrue from such status, the Dalit Muslims are said to lag far behind the Hindu Dalits, who have been able to make considerable progress in all fields because of the special facilities that the state has provided for them.

A New Indian Muslim Leadership and Changing Discourse of Community Identity:

The AIBMM prides itself in having coined the term 'Dalit Muslims', and in this it seeks to radically refashion notions of Muslim community identity. Deconstructing the notion of Muslims as a homogenous bloc, it brings to the fore the existence of caste distinctions among the Indian Muslims, which it sees as one of the primary and defining features of Indian Muslim society.

In articulating a separate Dalit Muslim identity it finds itself at odds with the traditional, largely 'high' caste Muslim leadership, which, in seeking to speak for all Muslims, sees the question of caste that the AIBMM so stridently stresses as divisive. Leading Muslim spokesmen have, not surprisingly, accused the AIBMM of seeking to create divisions within the Muslim community and of spreading 'casteism', and thus playing into the hands of militant Hindus.Ali sees as Islam as having historically played a key role in the emancipation of the Dalits, a role which, he says, was gradually watered down over time. Islam spread in India principally through the agency of the Sufis, he says, whose teachings of love and social equality attracted many Dalits to the new faith, shackled as they were by the chains of the caste system and the Brahminical religion. 7 It was not by the sword but through the love and compassion that the Sufis exhibited in their behaviour towards the poor, principally the Dalits, that large numbers of Hindus converted to Islam. With the establishment of Muslim political power in various parts of India, however, he says, this radical egalitarianism of the early Sufis gave way to more institutionalised forms of religious expression. 'High' caste Hindus, in order to save their properties or to secure high positions in Muslim-ruled territories, converted to Islam, bringing with them notions of caste superiority that are foreign to pristine Islam. Doctrines were developed that sought to legitimise caste inequalities by suitably misinterpreting the Qur'an. Gradually, he says, the 'spirit of Islam' was replaced by the 'rituals of Islam'.

Getting a bit more complext isnt it duendy??? Life isnt black and white you know...not all Muslims are suicide bombers and not all Dalits are Hindu......

I'l have a post on the way Christian Dalits are being treated by the Christian community later....it's a lovely day and I'm going to sun myself...untill then.....peace!!! :cool:

i say!
are dalit bitches hot and shit?

thanks

Why? did you sprain your hand?

why yes!
indeed i did :(

Aaaheeemmmm!

Simplistic

Adjective

1. Unrealistically simple. (Webster's)

as in looking at the caste system without the context in which it exists

I'm a nit picker :p !!- So am I, and there's nothing unrealistic about my post :p

- So am I, and there's nothing unrealistic about my post :p

This could go on forever :p

Let us agree to disagree :rolleyes:

The caste system owes its heritage to divisions of occupation or varna - varna is described in the vedas as symptomised by guna (quality) and karma (activity) as opposed to janma (birth) - its not that the caste system is wrong - its that a caste system based upon birth, as opposed to quality and activity is wrong

We weren't really disagreeing, I was just being captious :p

Seriously, though: The caste system still exists, and imo it shouldn't.

We weren't really disagreeing, I was just being captious :p

Seriously, though: The caste system still exists, and imo it shouldn't.


Yes of course; but if you explore the modern day casteism, you'll discover it has more to do with economic exploitation and the reservation system utilized by the Indian government to help with the "upliftment of the downtrodden" which has conferred benefits on "lower caste" people. This is viewed with resentment by those "upper caste" people who inspite of better education or merit find themselves on the fringes of an uncertain job market. The resultant resentments are of course expressed through caste wars. If you work in a private company, however, where merit is more important, such "casteism" is rarely encountered. In many cases, even where there is no casteism it is viewed as such by individuals who may feel defensive about their position. e.g. I know an instance of an airline pilot who got into a national airline through the scheduled caste reservation. He continually did poorly at his simulations and needed many trials in order to clear the grade. Honestly, would you want someone like that flying you across the Atlantic? When other pilots protested against his clearing the grade, that pilot claimed he was being discriminated against.

Its a very complex issue; I don't doubt that there are rural pockets in India where the caste system is a way of life, but such individuals also follow the village form of government and are less likely to go up in arms against each other. There may be economic exploitation but it is related more to the educational shortcomings than to the "evils" of the caste system.

i say!
are dalit bitches hot and shit?

thanks
All women are hot..dalit or not..... :rolleyes:

But not all men fry in their hormones

A brahmana is supposed to be qualified by samo, damas, tapah, saucam etc, peacefulness, self control, austerity, cleanliness etc

This is the distinction between one class of person and another

Xerxes:If we try to force India out of the caste system, it will destroy their culture. What India really needs is a slow evolution of their values, not to become a mirror image of the we

I think India is already on the road towards change and its happening internally among their intellectuals, writers, artists and politicians. The caste system is very strong and difficult to break so of course the change will be slow. Its not easy for a caste conscious person to accept an untouchable as an equal. Now personally I think the reincarnation nonsense is a convenient ruse used to ensure wealth and access to education stays within a particular group. Since all brahmins are definitely not 'white' nor 'aryan' I wouldn't say its equivalent is racism but more a form of classism. Anyway even though there has been access given to untouchables so they can enter university and perhaps will eventually secure a financial base I don't think they will ever be thought well of by other Hindus. Christian Indians love the untouchables and vice verse because it rids them of the caste thing. How can one be an untouchable if one is no longer Hindu? Nevertheless it hasn't changed how they are perceived. I do agree with you on one note, since there is enough of a debate among Hindu's about this issue its really their business and not ours. I mean what are we supposed to do air drop pamphlets? Making caste illegal won't change the culture.

Xerxes:If we try to force India out of the caste system, it will destroy their culture. What India really needs is a slow evolution of their values, not to become a mirror image of the we

I think India is already on the road towards change and its happening internally among their intellectuals, writers, artists and politicians. The caste system is very strong and difficult to break so of course the change will be slow. Its not easy for a caste conscious person to accept an untouchable as an equal. Now personally I think the reincarnation nonsense is a convenient ruse used to ensure wealth and access to education stays within a particular group. Since all brahmins are definitely not 'white' nor 'aryan' I wouldn't say its equivalent is racism but more a form of classism. Anyway even though there has been access given to untouchables so they can enter university and perhaps will eventually secure a financial base I don't think they will ever be thought well of by other Hindus. Christian Indians love the untouchables and vice verse because it rids them of the caste thing. How can one be an untouchable if one is no longer Hindu? Nevertheless it hasn't changed how they are perceived. I do agree with you on one note, since there is enough of a debate among Hindu's about this issue its really their business and not ours. I mean what are we supposed to do air drop pamphlets? Making caste illegal won't change the culture.

Actually all societies have a caste system - in other words all societies have an intelligent class (brahmana) martial class (ksatriya) mercantile class (vaisya) and labourer class (sudra) - the solution is not to abolish a caste system but to have a properly functioning one - for instance if you try to artificially raise evryone to the platform of a brahmana there will be chaos and if you try to artifically bring everyone down to the platform of a sudra (like communism) it will also fail. Birth can indicate a propensity for a class designation (like the son of a high court judge has an increased potential to become a high court judge) but ultimately one looks at qualification (the son of a high court judge doesn't actually become a high court judge until he is properly qualified).

Otherwise if you run around trying to bring the lowest person to the highest position or the highest person to the lowest position you disturb the natural order of things and are just operating on the same principle general principle, namely birth as an indication of what one deserves / doesn't deserve in life- even the hindu scriptures clearly state that it is quality (guna) and activity (karma) that establishes social designation (varna) as opposed to birth (janma)

All societies don't design their caste system from an idea of predestination through birth into a certain caste. In other words one sibling from the same family can decide to become a doctor because he not only desires the profession but has the intellectual capacity to reach the goal. His brother becomes a fireman because he has always liked fireman. The other brother becomes a wanderer doing this and that until he finds his own way. Very different than using a myth to decide the fate of others (but you wouldnt know better would you).

The caste system in India is a social construct designed to keep wealth, education and access within strict social lines but that doesnt make it right and it certainly wasnt dictated by the divine. In any case this issue has been on the minds of India's intelligencia for a long time and in time this too shall alter itself.

Hey why don't you answer the questions posted in the veggie section?

you disturb the natural order of things
Time-honoured phrase used by the wealthy and the powerful throughout history to keep those insolent, huddled masses in their proper place.

Time-honoured phrase used by the wealthy and the powerful throughout history to keep those insolent, huddled masses in their proper place.

Well put a fitter and turner in the position of the president, put the the president in the position of a ballet dance, put a ballet dancer in charge of a multi billion dollar supermarket chain, and put a multi billion dollar supermarket chain manager in the position of a fitter and turner and see if the picture doesn't equal to something like a disturbance of the natural order of things.

LG has the vedas and upanishad stunted your thinking? We don't 'put' people anywhere.

All societies don't design their caste system from an idea of predestination through birth into a certain caste.

Neither does india - my point was that the system has been corrupted by the notion of birth as an automatic qualification when the scriptures declare it is more a case of quality and activity.

In other words one sibling from the same family can decide to become a doctor because he not only desires the profession but has the intellectual capacity to reach the goal.

I agree, vedic scrpture also states the same thing - intellectual capacity means guna, quality

His brother becomes a fireman because he has always liked fireman. The other brother becomes a wanderer doing this and that until he finds his own way.

This is all quality and activity

Very different than using a myth to decide the fate of others (but you wouldnt know better would you).

I don't see what you are contending - my previou s post is in complete alignment with yours - maybe I didn't explain it properly (its my weakness as an academic to sometimes render simple concepts incomprehensible :p )

The caste system in India is a social construct designed to keep wealth, education and access within strict social lines but that doesnt make it right and it certainly wasnt dictated by the divine. In any case this issue has been on the minds of India's intelligencia for a long time and in time this too shall alter itself.

If a person is not qualified, whether they take birth in a high or low family - you don't solve the problem of social chaos by reserving positions for people of low birth just as you don't solve the problem by reserving them for people of high birth - you solve the problem by reserving them for qualified persons - now a person who takes birth in a high family may start out with an advantage (if their father is a high court judge they may more readily absorb the position of a high courst judge) but that is not an automatic qualification - it as opportunity to develop the right qualifications - but after al is said and done in the way of birth you are left with the examination of a persons qualification which stands independent of their birth as either low or high.

Hey why don't you answer the questions posted in the veggie section?

I'm getting there - please be patient its been a busy day :D

Well put a fitter and turner in the position of the president, put the the president in the position of a ballet dance, put a ballet dancer in charge of a multi billion dollar supermarket chain, and put a multi billion dollar supermarket chain manager in the position of a fitter and turner and see if the picture doesn't equal to something like a disturbance of the natural order of things.
So actors, for instance, should forget about any idea of ever becoming president (hmmm.. well, actually..)? You underestimate our adaptability.

If you are in agreement then we agree but I didn't pick that up in your post perhaps because you use religious text to explain your beliefs instead of just expalining your personal point of view.

LG: If a person is not qualified, whether they take birth in a high or low family - you don't solve the problem of social chaos by reserving positions for people of low birth just as you don't solve the problem by reserving them for people of high birth - you solve the problem by reserving them for qualified persons -

I agee up to a point. The methods used in India are the same as affirmative action in the States-you know the idea of reserving positions for minorities. Well affirmative action worked, it did give people access the trouble is knowing when those measures are no longer necessary. I am not sure if its no longer necessary in India.

So actors, for instance, should forget about any idea of ever becoming president (hmmm.. well, actually..)? You underestimate our adaptability.

If ronald reagan is anything to judge by, yes :p

If you are in agreement then we agree but I didn't pick that up in your post perhaps because you use religious text to explain your beliefs instead of just expalining your personal point of view.

LG: If a person is not qualified, whether they take birth in a high or low family - yo