View Full Version : Europeans are worse than cockroaches


Jerrek
11-07-03, 07:41 PM
Europeans are worse than cockroaches
http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3?table=old&section=current&issue=2003-11-08&id=3699

Here’s a round-up of recent items from the world’s press you may have missed: Item 1: In the last two weeks, two Toronto-bound El Al flights had to be diverted to other airports after credible terrorist threats were made about using surface-to-air missiles against them. The Canadian transport minister, David Collenette, responded by suggesting that the Israeli airline’s service to Pearson International Airport might be ended.

Item 2: The Baghdad hotel in which Paul Wolfowitz was staying was blown up. Several people were killed, though the US deputy defence secretary emerged unscathed. Much of the death and destruction was caused by French 68mm missiles ‘in pristine condition’, according to one US officer who inspected the rocket tubes and assembly. In other words, they’re not rusty leftovers Saddam had lying around from the 1980s. The Baathist dictatorship had acquired these missiles from the French rather more recently.

Item 3: According to Le Nouvel Observateur, ‘D’après un questionnaire de la Commission Européenne, 59% des Européens pensent qu’Israël est le pays le plus menaçant pour la paix dans le monde.’

Item 4: In the Guardian, Tariq Ali ended this week’s column on the mounting American (and NGO) death toll in Iraq thus: ‘Iraqis have one thing of which they can be proud and of which British and US citizens should be envious: an opposition’.

On 11 September 2001, I wrote that one of the casualties of the day’s events would be the Western alliance: ‘The US taxpayer’s willingness to pay for the defence of Canada and Europe has contributed to the decay of America’s so-called "allies", freeing them to disband their armed forces, flirt with dictators and gangster states, and essentially convert themselves to semi-non-aligned.’ ‘The West’ was an obsolete concept, because, as I put it later that month, for everyone but America ‘the free world is mostly a free ride’.

Two years on, most governments, at least officially, and most commentators, at least in the mainstream press, still don’t believe the relationship between America and its ‘allies’ is in a terminal state. But the above quartet of stories -- and you can find equivalent items any week -- illustrates why it can’t be put back together.

One: Mr Collenette’s response to terrorists is to take it out on their targets. Terrorists are threatening to use SAMs against El Al? No problem, we’ll get rid of El Al. That’s a great message to send. How soon before similar threats are phoned in to similarly jelly-spined jurisdictions in Europe? Pretty soon El Al won’t be flying anywhere. But no matter: Air Canada and Air France and Lufthansa will still be flying to Tel Aviv -- at least until a couple of anonymous phone calls are made hinting at fresh targets.

The threats against El Al came via phone calls from the Toronto area from terrorists claiming to have heat-seeking missiles. Police subsequently found a cache of weapons including a German-made shoulder rocket launcher that was smuggled into Canada through the ingenious method of dropping it in the mail and letting the Post Office deliver it. So there are two approaches to this problem: you can crack down on Toronto-based terrorist cells and try to get government agencies not to deliver their rocket launchers; or you can ban El Al. Mr Collenette inclines to the latter. This is a man, by the way, who marked the first anniversary of 11 September by publicly regretting the fall of the Soviet Union because now there is nobody to check America’s ‘bullying’.

Lesson: In the war on terror, the United States believes in pre-emption; Canada, like many other ‘allies’, believes in pre-emptive surrender. These two strategies are incompatible.

Two: Just suppose that one of those French rockets had killed Paul Wolfowitz. One of the greatest fictions of the interminable debate on Euro-American differences over Iraq is that it’s an argument about the means, not the end. If only Bush had been a little less Texan, less arrogant, less bullying, if only he’d been less impatient and willing to put in the hours, he could have brought the French and Germans round. After all, everyone agrees Saddam Hussein is a very bad man.

Not the French and Germans. There’s too much evidence suggesting the main reason they were unable to join the Bush side in this war is that they’d already signed on to the other team and they’d decided, in the sort of ghastly vernacular the cretinous Yanks would use, to dance with them what brung you. They’re being admirably consistent about this: at the recent Madrid conference France and Germany both refused to pony up one single euro to Iraqi reconstruction. It was never about the means, only the end.

Lesson: America and ‘Old Europe’ have different objectives in Iraq, and those objectives are incompatible.

Three: 59 per cent of Europeans think Israel is the biggest threat to world peace. Only 59 per cent? What’s wrong with the rest of you? But, hey, don’t worry. In Britain, it’s 60 per cent; Germany, 65 per cent; Austria, 69 per cent; the Netherlands, 74 per cent. The good news is that Israel won’t be a threat to world peace much longer, at least not if Iran’s nuclear programme carries on running rings around the International Atomic Energy Agency and the ayatollahs fulfil their pledge to solve the problem of the Zionist Entity once and for all.

Let us leave for another day the question of whether Israel is actually a bigger global menace than North Korea, which has hung a big shingle on the street saying ‘Nukes? We Got ’Em! And You Won’t Believe Our Prices!’ The fact is that 11 September bound America to Israel in ways that oblige Washington to regard European distaste for Jews as more than a mere social faux pas. Given the rate of Islamic immigration to Europe, those anti-Israeli numbers are heading in only one direction. At present demographic rates, by 2020 the majority of children in Holland -- i.e., the population under 18 -- will be Muslim. What do you figure that 74 per cent will be up to by then? Eighty-five per cent? Ninety-six per cent? If Americans think it’s difficult getting the Continentals on side now, wait another decade. In that sense, the Israelis are the canaries in the coalmine.

Lesson: America’s and Europe’s world views have diverged significantly, and those world views are now incompatible.

Four: Tariq Ali may not be the most representative political commentator, but it’s still quite something to find the house journal of the United Kingdom’s leftie establishment printing the assertion that Americans and Britons can only envy the vigour of the Iraqi ‘opposition’. So that’s what Iain Duncan Smith was doing wrong! He should have been loading up ambulances with rockets and firing them into hospitals. That’s the way to draw attention to the problems of the NHS.

The other day I accidentally referred to Tariq Ali as Tariq Aziz and within minutes had a little flurry of emails from correspondents sneering that evidently all these guys sound alike to me. Well, I wouldn’t say that. But Tariq Ali and Tariq Aziz are sounding very much alike. In fact, T. Ali sounds more Baathist than T. Aziz these days. When I was in the Sunni Triangle, I met many Iraqis who were grateful to the Americans; some who wanted a more visible US presence on the ground, a few who resented the infidel occupier -- but not one who was as gung-ho for the Saddamite holdouts and Syrian and Iranian opportunists as Tariq Ali. For him, and for Mr Collenette, and for Goran Persson and Nelson Mandela and many many others, even on 11 September, the issue was never terrorism; the issue was always America.

Lesson: Washington and Europe do not agree on the problem, so they’re hardly likely to agree on the solution.

Tariq and co. are right to this extent: in the scheme of things, it’s not about Islamic terrorism. The Islamist goal is a planet on which their enemies are either dead or Muslim converts. That’s not going to happen. But Islamism is sufficiently disruptive to rupture permanently the old ‘Western alliance’. A lot of things have been said on both sides, but what’s impressive about the Europeans is the palpable desire for America to fail, and Bush to fall.

I can’t see that happening. On election day next November, the Democrats have no chance of taking back the House of Representatives and they’re all but certain to lose seats in the Senate. Bush is likely to be re-elected: with that 7.2 per cent growth in GDP, it’s hard even for the BBC to keep pretending America’s in the middle of some sort of recession; and whatever happens in Iraq it’s difficult to see the Democrats, running on a foreign policy of Cut & Run, being the beneficiaries. But the trouble with a war on terror is that the victories go unreported -- the plotters who get foiled, the bombers who don’t make it through. All you hear about are the defeats. Let’s say there’s a terrorist attack in the US in the next 12 months and it kills several hundred people. On the one hand, you could argue that this shows the soundness of Bush’s judgment in making terrorism the priority of his administration. On the other, you could argue that this proves he never learnt the lessons of the failures of 11 September. Knowing the American media, I’d bet on the latter line being the one they settle on.

But other than that, the arguments over the next few years are going to be between conservatives -- between those who think it is worth pushing on with an ambitious programme to bring the Middle East within the non-deranged world, and those who figure that’s doomed to fail and we should settle for something less. This project is in the national interest of the United States but, in the end, the fate of the world’s hyperpower does not hinge on it.

Now let’s turn back to Europe. The Telegraph’s Adam Nicolson got irritated the other day because Denis Boyles of America’s National Review had dismissed the Europeans as ‘cockroaches’. Boyles is wrong. The Europeans are not cockroaches. The cockroach is the one creature you can rely on to come crawling out of the rubble of the nuclear holocaust. Whereas the one thing that can be said with absolute confidence is that the Europeans will not emerge from under their own rubble.

Europe is dying. As I’ve pointed out here before, it can’t square rising welfare costs, a collapsed birthrate and a manpower dependent on the world’s least skilled, least assimilable immigrants. In 20 years’ time, as those Dutch Muslim teenagers are entering the voting booths, European countries, unlike parts of Nigeria, will not be living under Sharia, but they will be reaching their accommodations with their radicalised Islamic compatriots, who like many intolerant types are expert at exploiting the ‘tolerance’ of pluralist societies.

How happy what’s left of the ethnic Dutch or French or Danes will be about this remains to be seen. But the idea of a childless Europe rivalling America militarily or economically is laughable. Sometime this century there will be 500 million Americans, and what’s left in Europe will either be very old or very Muslim. That’s the Europe that Britain will be binding its fate to. Japan faces the same problem: in 2006, its population will begin an absolute decline, a death spiral it will be unlikely ever to climb out of. Will Japan be an economic powerhouse if it’s populated by Koreans and Filipinos? Possibly. Will Germany if it’s populated by Algerians? That’s a trickier proposition.

Last Sunday, recalling the US-Soviet summits that helped ‘ease the tensions of the Cold War’, the New York Times’s Thomas Friedman proposed we hold regular US-Franco-German summits. Implicit in that analysis is the assumption that France and perhaps other Continental countries now exist in a quasi-Cold War with America. If that’s so, the trick is to manage the relationship until the Europeans, like the Soviets, collapse. Europe is dying, and it’s only a question of whether it goes peacefully or through convulsions of violence. On that point, I bet on form. (emphasis added)

Interesting article. I agree with the conclusions he is drawing.

Yes
11-07-03, 07:45 PM
Posting large verbatim extracts of text from other sites is undesirable for several reasons:

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Jerrek
11-07-03, 07:49 PM
Undesirable, not wrong. I specifically highlighted certain parts. No I believe YOUR post, by hijacking a thread, is wrong. In either case, a PM would have sufficed. Your post has been reported.

Moderator, fix this.

guthrie
11-07-03, 07:49 PM
Why does everyone have the tendency to draw straight line graphs from current trends? The round up of anti-european points contains some serious points but also the usual suspects of facile anti-americanism. I mean who takes Tariq ali seriously any more? And is he realy stupid enough to think we'll all be working under sharia law in 30 years time? Whatll happen is that as europe goes under, all the islamists will move to the USA, where all the money is. Actually, whats more fun is that hes ignoring the simple point that what goes up, must come down. Europe will go down to some extent, yes, but then, assuming a lack of global nuclear holocaust etc, in a hundred years or 200 or suchlike, itll be up again. I have this funny, emoptional reaction to being said to be worse than cockroaches. That is a statement on the order of stupidity as the kind made about El Al by the Canadian transport minister.
Now, teh obligatory USA bashing- I have a big thick book postulating how economic power is closely linked to political power. And vice versa. When your economic power goes downhill, so does your world power. Adn guess which way the USA is heading? Thats right, downwards. The UK is well down, the USA has yet to realise its next.

Jerrek
11-07-03, 07:55 PM
Whatll happen is that as europe goes under, all the islamists will move to the USA, where all the money is.
The United States does NOT let immigrants flow in without some sort of control like Europe. Well, we do, but by far not as much as Europe.

Europe also has a habit of giving immigration visas to UNEDUCATED and UNQUALIFIED immigrants. The article reinforces that fact.

Islamists can't just move here as they can into Europe. So, your point is quite moot.


Europe will go down to some extent, yes, but then, assuming a lack of global nuclear holocaust etc, in a hundred years or 200 or suchlike, itll be up again.
Perhaps, but what makes you so sure? Look at sub-Saharan Africa. It has been down for eons.



I have this funny, emoptional reaction to being said to be worse than cockroaches.
I didn't make that up. Someone else did. The article in the Spectator merely quoted that.



I have a big thick book postulating how economic power is closely linked to political power.
I didn't need a book to tell me that.



When your economic power goes downhill, so does your world power. Adn guess which way the USA is heading? Thats right, downwards. The UK is well down, the USA has yet to realise its next.
Really. To my knowledge, Germany has been in a recession for a while. Unemployment is skyrocketing in Europe. Over 10% in some countries.

In the United States, we had record breaking growth (7.2% increase last quarter, annualized), and unemployment rate is actually DOWN. I'm sorry, but I don't see your wish of the USA to go down coming true anytime soon.

Tiassa
11-07-03, 08:09 PM
Quite hilarious. If there's one thing you're good for, Jerrek, it's spite in the guise of cheap humor. This article was well-tailored, though.

Ever heard of Titus Crow?

guthrie
11-07-03, 08:11 PM
"The United States does NOT let immigrants flow in without some sort of control like California. Well, we do, but by far not as much as Europe."

I would think that the south west of the country disproves that. Please note also that a lot of suicide bombers etc are quite well educated.

"Perhaps, but what makes you so sure? Look at sub-Saharan Africa. It has been down for eons."

But of course, I cant say for sure. Whats your crystal ball say about the USA's future?

"I didn't make that up. Someone else did. The article in the Spectator merely quoted that."

I wasnt reacting agasint you. However, I still dislike being compared to cockroaches, and then having him say that Europe is worse than cockroaches.

"I didn't need a book to tell me that."

Great, then youll know what I'm talking about.

"Really. To my knowledge, Germany has been in a recession for a while. Unemployment is skyrocketing in Europe. Over 10% in some countries."

So when was Germany last a world power? And as much, Europe? Thats right, before the 2nd world war.

"In the United States, we had record breaking growth (7.2% increase last quarter, annualized), and unemployment rate is actually DOWN. I'm sorry, but I don't see your wish of the USA to go down coming true anytime soon."

I'm talking 10 to 20 years. This isnt next year stuff. It took effectively 20 years for the british empire to disintegrate properly. Have you actulaly looked at the indices for ordinary americans recently? Purchasing power is comparable to what it was over 25 years ago? Record levels of personal debt? Oh, I forget, you dont live there. Oh, and lets not forget the Wal mart employees paid so little they need benefits to survive.

Jerrek
11-07-03, 08:20 PM
I would think that the south west of the country disproves that.
How? You think that by 2020 the majority of teens in the south west will be Mexican?

But of course, I cant say for sure. Whats your crystal ball say about the USA's future?
Rosy.

I'm talking 10 to 20 years. This isnt next year stuff. It took effectively 20 years for the british empire to disintegrate properly. Have you actulaly looked at the indices for ordinary americans recently? Purchasing power is comparable to what it was over 25 years ago? Record levels of personal debt?
And in the meantime, we live longer, happer, with a higher standard of living than the vast majority of countries.

Oh, I forget, you dont live there.
I don't? Since when?

Oh, and lets not forget the Wal mart employees paid so little they need benefits to survive.
And this has what to do with the discussion at hand?

guthrie
11-07-03, 08:30 PM
"How? You think that by 2020 the majority of teens in the south west will be Mexican?"

By 2020, Hispanics will be close to whites in the entire USA. Ill have to try and dig up the figures somewhere. The Conservative right wing is fighting so hard in part becasue they fear they will be the next minority in their own country.

"But of course, I cant say for sure. Whats your crystal ball say about the USA's future?
Rosy."

Maybe we should move this to pseudoscience. :D

"And in the meantime, we live longer, happer, with a higher standard of living than the vast majority of countries."

Really? Are you sure your happier? In fact, are you sure the actual standard of living is rising? And besides, how are you going to stop all these poorer countries going terrorist on you?

"I don't? Since when?"

You dont? DAmn, didnt you used to be canadian or something? I cant remember, its a while since Ive seen you.

"And this has what to do with the discussion at hand?"

Quality of life and drain on public resources etc.

Jerrek
11-07-03, 08:38 PM
By 2020, Hispanics will be close to whites in the entire USA.
Doubtful.

You dont? DAmn, didnt you used to be canadian or something? I cant remember, its a while since Ive seen you.
I'm getting tired of you bringing irrelevant things into this discussion. Yes, I'm Canadian. Yes, I am American too. Yes, I live in Toronto while I study. Yes, I'm working for Google now, and thus living in California for the time being.

Quality of life and drain on public resources etc.
I'm sorry, I didn't know that Wal-Mart dictates the quality of life for the entire country. My bad.

Yes
11-07-03, 08:45 PM
Just interested, what kind of work do you do for Google? Could you for example decrease the number of hits a certain name generates if a friend of yours disliked the person that the name belonged to? Would that be legal?

Jerrek
11-07-03, 08:48 PM
I don't have access to the database, or the application server clusters.

guthrie
11-07-03, 08:59 PM
"The Census of 2000 made clear minorities grew at 12 times the rate of whites. By the year 2050 according to Census projections racial and ethnic minorities will outnumber non-Hispanic whites. "
OK, 2050. My memory isnt brilliant.
http://www.rapidimmigration.com/usa/1_eng_immigration_facts.html

"California will achieve a statewide "minority majority" in 2004 and Texas by 2010. "
From the same page.

"I'm sorry, I didn't know that Wal-Mart dictates the quality of life for the entire country. My bad."

They help do so by driving down wages by putting other operators out of business. Its not exactly a simple thing, but its part of a whole in which the average USA wage is worth less than it used to be.

DeeCee
11-07-03, 09:08 PM
I don't have access to the database, or the application server clusters.
Sounds like a description of your neurobiology Jerrek :D

Europe is not perfect but expecting it to follow the US is a bit rich.
Europe does not want to be a US colony.
The US needs Europe, it's markets and it's troops.

Now make us a decent offer.
Dee Cee

otheadp
11-08-03, 02:46 AM
interesting article.
a bit soft spoken, a bit stating the obvious.
although it points out a grim reality... so unfortunately people will just ignore it and live in lala land where there's no terrorism, there's no flood of muslim immigration to europe, that that immigration is affecting the landscape of europe (political, cultural, economic, demographic), that bin Laden is Bush's invention, that europe and US are best friends.... and so on.

If there's one thing you're good for, Jerrek, it's spite in the guise of cheap humor. This article was well-tailored, though.


how typical of you, tiassa, whenever a rightwinger presents some good arguments you attack the presenter with irrelevant boring half-insults.
bother to comment on the article?

EI_Sparks
11-08-03, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by otheadp
interesting article.
a bit soft spoken, a bit stating the obvious.
although it points out a grim reality... so unfortunately people will just ignore it and live in lala land where there's no terrorism, there's no flood of muslim immigration to europe, that that immigration is affecting the landscape of europe (political, cultural, economic, demographic), that bin Laden is Bush's invention, that europe and US are best friends.... and so on.
Grow up othedap, we've been living with terrorism for longer than you've personally been alive, and for a damn sight longer than Bush has been sober. Hell, some countries here have been dealing with terrorism for longer than the US has existed.
The one thing we have learnt is that the US's approach doesn't work, won't work, and in fact just makes things worse.

how typical of you, tiassa, whenever a rightwinger presents some good arguments you attack the presenter with irrelevant boring half-insults.
bother to comment on the article?
Othedap, your definition of a good argument would have aristotle despairing for the intellectual well-being of the human race. As to Jerrek's definition of one... well, that'd just confirm it....

Avatar
11-08-03, 01:02 PM
five countries I'd never consider living in: Russia, China, USA, Congo, North Korea
and yeah, Europe has been dealing with terrorism since the crusades