Birth rates

In Europe 2.1 is considered to be the population replacement level. This table shows the mean number of children per woman (2004 figures)

Ireland 1.99
France 1.90
Norway 1.81
Sweden 1.75
UK 1.74
Netherlands 1.73
Germany 1.37
Italy 1.33
Spain 1.32
Greece 1.29

http://www.europa.eu.int/comm/eurostat/

The figure for France is misleading in the context of "Europeans". It is only as high as 1.90 because of the high birth rate among North African immigrants and some other immigrant groups. Among young children starting school, it is now reckoned that true French may be in a minority. French law forbids the gathering of data on an ethnic basis, so it is difficult to know just how bad the picture is for the historic inhabitants of France. By the end of this century, they may constitute an insignificant minority.

Eh, bien.

By the end of this century, they may constitute an insignificant minority.

That would be really sad. France is a nice place, unlike any other I've ever seen.

:m:

We are merely optimising our numbers. There is no need for a full factory of workers, if robots can do the same thing.
There is no reason that the decline should continue to zero.

In Europe 2.1 is considered to be the population replacement level.
the 2.1 figure is for the population to double every 40 years or so , as long as you have 1.+ birth rate there will be a population surplus , it just means a slower growth rate . I investigated your source the natural increase for 2005 was some 2 million . First demographic estimates for 2005 - Issue number 1/2006 (http://epp.eurostat.cec.eu.int/portal/page?_pageid=1073,46587259&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&p_product_code=KS-NK-06-001)
Based upon monthly data available at the end of 2005, latest forecasts and expert opinion, total population increase is estimated to reach a level of around 2.0 million (compared to 2.3 million in 2004), bringing the EU population on 1 January 2006 to 461.5 million.

I thought it was to compensate for loss of life through accident, violence, and for the estimated 2-4% of the population who will end up gay and thus not breeding.

yep,that is why gays show up in most species.

to absord children from dead straights.

it works out well too.

the 2.1 figure is for the population to double every 40 years or so , as long as you have 1.+ birth rate there will be a population surplus , it just means a slower growth rate . I investigated your source the natural increase for 2005 was some 2 million .
You appear to have overlooked the fact that only women give birth to children. They need to have at least two each to maintain the population.

The EU population is rising due to immigration.

Hopefully, the mess made my modernity can be undone with time as the compost heap helps rebuild normalcy over following centuries.


ONE of Britain's leading environmentalists will today sound a doomsday warning to the world: humanity's very existence is under threat from climate change and, even if we survive, the population will crash to about a third of its current level.

Sir Crispin Tickell, the man who convinced former prime minister Margaret Thatcher that global warming was a real problem, predicts that, in 200 years, there could be as few as 2.3 billion people because rising sea levels and temperatures will make some areas uninhabitable and, coupled with social factors, depress birth rates.

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=132492006

[ This is good news. ]

DAmned lazy Europeans! Give them freedom, and see what they do with it!
Before you know whats happened, they'll want a subsidy for children, claiming they are too expensive otherwise.

I started a thread on this topic not long ago. What hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that it's not just that Europeans aren't reproducing, it's that they are being replaced by Muslums through immigration and a much higher fertility rate. Before this century is out, Europe will be nothing but an extension of the middle east. Enjoy sharia!

I wonder what the American Indians thought of changing demographics a few centuries ago.

Birth rates

In Europe 2.1 is considered to be the population replacement level. This table shows the mean number of children per woman (2004 figures)

Ireland 1.99
France 1.90
Norway 1.81
Sweden 1.75
UK 1.74
Netherlands 1.73
Germany 1.37
Italy 1.33
Spain 1.32
Greece 1.29

http://www.europa.eu.int/comm/eurostat/

thanks for pointing that out Adolf.

I wonder what the American Indians thought of changing demographics a few centuries ago.
Good analogy. Except in a hundred years the "native" Europeans won't even be allowed to run casinos. They'll be an oppressed minority forced to convert to Islam, or leave.

Well it is their own damn fault for murdering their own children to the point that they are going to become minorities in their own countries...

the 2.1 figure is for the population to double every 40 years or so , as long as you have 1.+ birth rate there will be a population surplus , it just means a slower growth rate . I investigated your source the natural increase for 2005 was some 2 million .

No, I think 2.1 is the replacement level.

It just goes to show what happens when you replace culture with a consumer and entertainment based culture. What a dead end!

Quite funny how "progress" often fails as little more than conjecture while tried and true methods remain best.

Quite funny how "progress" often fails as little more than conjecture while tried and true methods remain best.
Whats are the corresponding death rates? Won't they have dropped too as a result of "progress"?

THOU

SHALT

NOT

COMMITETH

THREAD

NECROMANCY

Thus sayeth the PRINCE.

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2006/05/10/GR2006051000174.gif

Yust wanting to show that Europe isn't the only one with this sort of problems.

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2006/05/10/GR2006051000174.gif

Yust wanting to show that Europe isn't the only one with this sort of problems.

You can't really compare this to Europe. The entire figure basically consists out of immigrants.

oops wrong article but no really I've seen a study that states that the caucasian and black community is following European example but the but the hispanics are steadly increacing and should make the mayority of the US before 2050 I heard, but I can't seem to find the article

hispanics are steadly increacing and should make the mayority of the US before 2050 I heard, but I can't seem to find the article
Does that assume that Hispanic birth rates will continue as they are? I mean for 45 years?

It isn't birth rate, it is immigration (illegal).

I'm sure the world will be a much better place once all the white people are gone.

http://www.markdroberts.com/images/Child-starving-sudan-3.jpg

and to think, here in australia we get shit about our apparently 'tough on illegals' policy, when we're just trying to ensure we don't face the problems the US and Euro are facing.
The US has the latinos, Europe has the N Africans, and we got the Asian's.

and to think, here in australia we get shit about our apparently 'tough on illegals' policy, when we're just trying to ensure we don't face the problems the US and Euro are facing.
The US has the latinos, Europe has the N Africans, and we got the Asian's.All of which will overwhelm races that do not breed enough. Higher living standards brings lower birthrates. In early America whites had several kids per family, for work. When the 3rd World is brought up to 1st World standards this problem will go away. If we don't, they will overwhelm and overtake us. Which path do we take??

genji's right, we wall of our nations to immigrants, or we put our money and energies into bringing their nations up to our standard so that ours don't look that appealing.

afterall, our nations have been exploiting the resources of allot of these poorer nations for centuries anyway, bout time we gave back.

but damn, that may mean we have to pay more for all our nice cheap items being made by 10 year olds for 10c an hour......

Among young children starting school, it is now reckoned that true French may be in a minority. French law forbids the gathering of data on an ethnic basis, so it is difficult to know just how bad the picture is for the historic inhabitants of France. By the end of this century, they may constitute an insignificant minority.People have been saying the same thing about the USA since the wave of Irish refugees from the Potato Famine 150 years ago. (Does anyone know how the Irish survived before they imported potatoes from the New World?) The Germans, the Italians, the Chinese, the Mexicans. The original English are surely a minority in this country by now, and guess what? It doesn't matter!

Being American has nothing to do with blood. Everyone comes here and assimilates. Some take three generations like the Japanese, some take only one like the Mexicans. They bring something with them to add to our culture and keep it vigorous, and in return they adopt what they found here. The original settlers might not recognize the country, but except for those wacky Puritan one-percenters they would probably approve of what we've done with it. Ben Franklin would positively adore this place!

The same is true of France. Being French is not about having a certain mixture of Frankish, Gaulish and Roman blood. France stands for something just like America does. It is sturdy enough to absorb waves of newcomers. The first generation may desperately try to cling to the ways of the old country, but their children and especially their grandchildren will be drawn to things French. They will intermarry and one day when another Fraggle Rocker writes about the essence of France he will talk about that special mix of Frankish, Gaulish, Roman and North African blood.

Look at England. It was completely conquered and overrun by a foreign people. They never left, they never relinquished power. Yet 940 years later, no one speaks French as his native language. The Normans all intermarried with the native population and assimilated to their culture, after stirring in some of their own to keep it vigorous. The place is still England because England stands for something.

Why does the old guy have to lecture you young folks on the unimportance of "race"? The French have it right! A "true" Frenchman is not one with the right ancestry. He is one with the right spirit. Liberté, égalité, fraternité. It's irresistable. The immigrants will be drawn to that spirit as easily as those in our country are drawn to baseball, rock and roll, and women's liberation.

People have been saying the same thing about the USA since the wave of Irish refugees from the Potato Famine 150 years ago. (Does anyone know how the Irish survived before they imported potatoes from the New World?) The Germans, the Italians, the Chinese, the Mexicans. The original English are surely a minority in this country by now, and guess what? It doesn't matter!

Being American has nothing to do with blood. Everyone comes here and assimilates. Some take three generations like the Japanese, some take only one like the Mexicans. They bring something with them to add to our culture and keep it vigorous, and in return they adopt what they found here. The original settlers might not recognize the country, but except for those wacky Puritan one-percenters they would probably approve of what we've done with it. Ben Franklin would positively adore this place!

The same is true of France. Being French is not about having a certain mixture of Frankish, Gaulish and Roman blood. France stands for something just like America does. It is sturdy enough to absorb waves of newcomers. The first generation may desperately try to cling to the ways of the old country, but their children and especially their grandchildren will be drawn to things French. They will intermarry and one day when another Fraggle Rocker writes about the essence of France he will talk about that special mix of Frankish, Gaulish, Roman and North African blood.

Look at England. It was completely conquered and overrun by a foreign people. They never left, they never relinquished power. Yet 940 years later, no one speaks French as his native language. The Normans all intermarried with the native population and assimilated to their culture, after stirring in some of their own to keep it vigorous. The place is still England because England stands for something.

Why does the old guy have to lecture you young folks on the unimportance of "race"? The French have it right! A "true" Frenchman is not one with the right ancestry. He is one with the right spirit. Liberté, égalité, fraternité. It's irresistable. The immigrants will be drawn to that spirit as easily as those in our country are drawn to baseball, rock and roll, and women's liberation.

This is a load of horseshit. You might as well argue nothing changed for the AI with all the White "immigration" to North America.

I'm sure the world will be a much better place once all the white people are gone.

http://www.markdroberts.com/images/Child-starving-sudan-3.jpgLet's keep in mind this is a human being.

A human being with the misfortune of belonging to the least developed race, in the worse region of the planet, and mired in a system that is hopelessly corrupt and worsened by the bleeding heart policies which the West pursues in the region.

This is a load of horseshit. You might as well argue nothing changed for the AI with all the White "immigration" to North America.That was an Iron Age civilization occupying the territory of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and a few Neolithic subsistence farmers. We didn't come to enjoy the benefits of their society and join them, we destroyed their society without understanding it and moved them out of the way. The immigrants outnumbered the native people (in North America) something like ten to one.

This is not what happened when the Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc. came here, people from similar levels of civilization meeting more or less as equals, adding a small, easily assimilated fraction to the population. It is not even what happened when the Normans invaded England. Again, equivalent levels of civilization, people who learned to live together relatively easily despite the circumstances, and not an overwhelming influx of population.

And it is certainly not what is happening in France. When people from the Third World migrate to a Post-Industrial Era civilization it is pretty much the exact opposite of the Europeans with their wheels and domesticated animals and metal tools and cities migrating to the Third World of pre-Columbian North America. And if the volume of their influx is only sufficient to offset the natural decline in population it's hardly a threat to overrun the country.

I know there are some who liken France to Rome being overrun by the Visigoths. But France is not Rome collapsing from the spiritual rot of Christianity into the Dark Ages. And the North Africans are not coming to destroy civilization and run off with the loot, they are coming to live in it and better their lives.

I know that people who flout the French rule about measuring ethnicity say that 12% of the country's population is Muslim. They are counting millions of kids who call themselves Muslims but are as secular as the average French "Christian." They're shedding their foreign ways as immigrants always do. The tumult in France is not really over religion, it is about jobs.

Fraggle, you're an optimist. I'll admit there is logic to your argument, and I hope you're right. But I'd say it applies more to the Hispanics moving into the US than the Muslims moving into Europe.

The Hispanic population in the US pretty much just wants a better life and is happy to assymillate into mainstream culture. But many Muslim immigrants in Europe attend Mosques that preach the destruction of the societies they are now a "part" of.

madanthonywayne:

If they are so happy to assimilate, why do they not learn English? Stay in segregated communities? Consider themselves Mexicans over Americans? Rob the working man of a better wage by working for crap and not joining unions?

Fraggle, you're an optimist. I'll admit there is logic to your argument, and I hope you're right. But I'd say it applies more to the Hispanics moving into the US than the Muslims moving into Europe.

The Hispanic population in the US pretty much just wants a better life and is happy to assymillate into mainstream culture. But many Muslim immigrants in Europe attend Mosques that preach the destruction of the societies they are now a "part" of.

Immigrants do, but do their kids?
I know of a few Muslims that like to enjoy Bacardi Breezers and promsicuous relations with women.

madanthonywayne:

If they are so happy to assimilate, why do they not learn English? Stay in segregated communities? Consider themselves Mexicans over Americans? Rob the working man of a better wage by working for crap and not joining unions?
Most do learn English. I do agree that we should decrease the rate of immigration to allow more time for assimilation of those already here. Most especially, we should build a wall to stop illegal immigration.

And I say this as a third generation American. My grandfather immigrated from Cuba. I had an uncle who lived most of his life here, but never really learned English. He would complain about us younger generations not knowing Spanish, but we'd reply WE'RE IN AMERICA, YOU'RE THE ONE SPEAKING THE WRONG LANGUAGE!. This was mainly said thru interpreters, since we didn't speak Spanish.

Immigrants do, but do their kids?
I know of a few Muslims that like to enjoy Bacardi Breezers and promsicuous relations with women.
So did the Sept 11 hijackers. I believe they spent their last nite at a strip bar. It was OK, since all is forgiven so long as you die during jihad. A seamless transition, from a stripbar to 72 virgins at your beck and call.

Most do learn English. I do agree that we should decrease the rate of immigration to allow more time for assimilation of those already here. Most especially, we should build a wall to stop illegal immigration.

And I say this as a third generation American. My grandfather immigrated from Cuba. I had an uncle who lived most of his life here, but never really learned English. He would complain about us younger generations not knowing Spanish, but we'd reply WE'RE IN AMERICA, YOU'RE THE ONE SPEAKING THE WRONG LANGUAGE!. This was mainly said thru interpreters, since we didn't speak Spanish.

In a way your grandpa wasn't really wrong. Isn't it so that there is no official language in the USA? It's just that the majority speaks english at the moment. But that hasn't always been the case and maybe it will change in the future again.

Maybe we have official languages in Europe because we have a clearer history.

That was an Iron Age civilization occupying the territory of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and a few Neolithic subsistence farmers. We didn't come to enjoy the benefits of their society and join them, we destroyed their society without understanding it and moved them out of the way. The immigrants outnumbered the native people (in North America) something like ten to one.

Correct.

This is not what happened when the Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc. came here, people from similar levels of civilization meeting more or less as equals, adding a small, easily assimilated fraction to the population. It is not even what happened when the Normans invaded England. Again, equivalent levels of civilization, people who learned to live together relatively easily despite the circumstances, and not an overwhelming influx of population.

It was relatively low and relatively the same type of people doing the immigrating so it wasn't that big of a deal.

And it is certainly not what is happening in France. When people from the Third World migrate to a Post-Industrial Era civilization it is pretty much the exact opposite of the Europeans with their wheels and domesticated animals and metal tools and cities migrating to the Third World of pre-Columbian North America. And if the volume of their influx is only sufficient to offset the natural decline in population it's hardly a threat to overrun the country.

France and Western Europe in general is gradually being race replaced by third worlders. The numbers of actual French people are shrinking while the numbers of third worlders is increasing fast in France. White French people will easily be a minority before 2100 just like the UK and the States in 2050.

I know there are some who liken France to Rome being overrun by the Visigoths. But France is not Rome collapsing from the spiritual rot of Christianity into the Dark Ages. And the North Africans are not coming to destroy civilization and run off with the loot, they are coming to live in it and better their lives.

They will turn France into a shithole like the countries they came from.

I know that people who flout the French rule about measuring ethnicity say that 12% of the country's population is Muslim. They are counting millions of kids who call themselves Muslims but are as secular as the average French "Christian." They're shedding their foreign ways as immigrants always do. The tumult in France is not really over religion, it is about jobs.

I agree these punks are not devout muslims even though they do identify themselves as muslims and you are somewhat right about jobs, (they do badly economically because they have low IQs) however, when they become a big enough majority the French can kiss their country goodbye because they won't be the ones running it.

The idea that these Arabs and Africans will totally assimilate and become as French as the current White French people are is totally ridiculous. They don't even want to assimilate.

Check out

http://hotair.com/archives/2006/10/25/michelle-interviews-mark-steyn/

talks about France and population transformation.

So did the Sept 11 hijackers. I believe they spent their last nite at a strip bar. It was OK, since all is forgiven so long as you die during jihad. A seamless transition, from a stripbar to 72 virgins at your beck and call.

But they were immigrants. They had old beliefs. They weren't the children or grandchildren of immigrants. It's much harder for kids to resist the culture they'r ebeing raised in, as they go to school with other kids, they see stuff on tv, etc.

That's why integration is so important. If you marginalize your immigrants and put them in ghettos, then it's much more difficult to convert their kids to your culture.

Madanthonywayne:

"Most do learn English."

Where do you live, perchance? As this may clear up why we have differing views on this.

" I do agree that we should decrease the rate of immigration to allow more time for assimilation of those already here. Most especially, we should build a wall to stop illegal immigration."

I'm glad we concur on this.

"And I say this as a third generation American. My grandfather immigrated from Cuba. I had an uncle who lived most of his life here, but never really learned English. He would complain about us younger generations not knowing Spanish, but we'd reply WE'RE IN AMERICA, YOU'RE THE ONE SPEAKING THE WRONG LANGUAGE!. This was mainly said thru interpreters, since we didn't speak Spanish. "

I am quite glad you were capable of bothconveying that important message and understood such things at that age. It's also heartening to hear that such experiences exist, as so often it seems that no one values the English language enough to fight for it like that.

If they are so happy to assimilate, why do they not learn English? Stay in segregated communities? Consider themselves Mexicans over Americans?This is a totally false remark and you should be ashamed of yourself for attempting to deceive people. Latin Americans and Mexicans in particular have the highest rate of assimilation of any ethnic group that's ever come here, with the possible exception of the early Dutch settlers. There is a French-speaking community in Louisiana 203 years after the Louisiana Purchase, for the goddess's sake! Mexicans have a fifty percent intermarriage rate in the first generation. By the third generation it's difficult to even find anyone who can be identified as a hyphenated-American.Rob the working man of a better wage by working for crap and not joining unions?Oh buy a newspaper dude. The union movement has been dying since its peak in the 1940s and 50s. Barely 15% of American workers belong to unions any more, and that includes such bastions of the common workingman as the Screen Actors Guild, the American Federation of Musicians, and the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees.

As I posted on another thread, a friend wanted to have his basement dry-walled. An American union contractor quoted him thirteen thousand dollars and said it would take two weeks. He hired four Latinos with a truck, took them to Home Depot to buy the materials, and they finished the job in one day. He paid them a thousand dollars for it, which comes out to about $30 an hour. They were embarrassed and tried to give him back $600 but he refused--which would still be a very good wage for "hanging drywall," every laborer's cliche for the ultimate in unskilled work.

They're not robbing anyone of a better wage by working for crap. They're putting some of these despicable unionized parasites out of business and they deserve it.

This is a totally false remark and you should be ashamed of yourself for attempting to deceive people. Latin Americans and Mexicans in particular have the highest rate of assimilation of any ethnic group that's ever come here
http://www.mexica-movement.org/images/capt.carm10301072138.immigration_protest_carm103.j pg

Mexicans have a fifty percent intermarriage rate in the first generation. By the third generation it's difficult to even find anyone who can be identified as a hyphenated-American.
http://www.theurbangrindblog.com/wp-content/uploads/messicans.jpg

He hired four Latinos with a truck, took them to Home Depot to buy the materials.http://www.davidduke.com/images/home_depot_protest.jpg

They're not robbing anyone of a better wage by working for crap. They're putting some of these despicable unionized parasites out of business and they deserve it.http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/060412/gorrell.gif

"Most do learn English."
Where do you live, perchance? As this may clear up why we have differing views on this.

I am currently living in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Previously I lived in Illinois and practiced Optometry in Chicago. Even in Chicago, where there's a sizable Hispanic population, if the parents didn't speak English, the kids did.

That's the really important thing, the younger generations simply must learn English to become Americans. Learning a new language can be difficult for an adult. My grandfather still has a pretty strong accent despite living most of his life in the US.

It's funny how the government goes out of its way to not count Hispanics as "white". On census forms it says "White, not of hispanic origin" or something like that. But if you look at me, you'd say I was "white". Indeed, many of my Hispanic patients doubt that I'm the doctor with the spanish name they came to see. My, mostly, non-hispanic patients tend to Anglicize my name by mispronouncing it.

You see these predictions that the US will be majority "non-white" by 2050 or whatever and I say that's bull. Italians, Irish, Jews, etc were once not considered white. By 2050 hispanics will be "white" too, so long as they speak English.

http://www.theurbangrindblog.com/wp-content/uploads/messicans.jpg
http://www.targetofopportunity.com/1492.jpg
That really pisses me off. If Bush had some balls, he'd have sent the INS to those rallies and loaded up all the illegals and dropped them off in Mexico.

This is a totally false remark and you should be ashamed of yourself for attempting to deceive people. Latin Americans and Mexicans in particular have the highest rate of assimilation of any ethnic group that's ever come here,

http://static.flickr.com/25/90724379_357a90ad54.jpg

http://dojak.net/blogpix/racist.jpg

As I posted on another thread, a friend wanted to have his basement dry-walled. An American union contractor quoted him thirteen thousand dollars and said it would take two weeks. He hired four Latinos with a truck, took them to Home Depot to buy the materials, and they finished the job in one day. He paid them a thousand dollars for it, which comes out to about $30 an hour. They were embarrassed and tried to give him back $600 but he refused--which would still be a very good wage for "hanging drywall," every laborer's cliche for the ultimate in unskilled work.

They're not robbing anyone of a better wage by working for crap. They're putting some of these despicable unionized parasites out of business and they deserve it.
This must be on there day off:
http://www.michnews.com/c/Illegals%20-%20Day%20Laborers%20Rally%20with%20Mexican%20Flags .jpg

What's the matter, J.B.? Can't you write? If you're too lazy to say what you're thinking I sure as hell am not going to waste my time following half a dozen URLs. Didn't they teach you to do book reports in school? Aren't you intelligent and articulate enough to read something and write a cogent abstract about it? Why should we all read your original source material, which is generally written for people with fourth-grade educations and takes forever? This was the most arrogant series of posts I've ever seen. One URL is bad enough. Life is too short to follow URLs. Provide them as backup in case someone doesn't trust you or if they have an entertaining video.

As I posted on another thread, a friend wanted to have his basement dry-walled. An American union contractor quoted him thirteen thousand dollars and said it would take two weeks.:eek: He hired four Latinos with a truck, took them to Home Depot to buy the materials, and they finished the job in one day. He paid them a thousand dollars for it, which comes out to about $30 an hour. They were embarrassed and tried to give him back $600 but he refused--which would still be a very good wage for "hanging drywall," every laborer's cliche for the ultimate in unskilled work.

They're not robbing anyone of a better wage by working for crap. They're putting some of these despicable unionized parasites out of business and they deserve it.
thirteen thousand dollars and said it would take two weeks.:eek: ! Damn. I built a room in the basement of my old house, and the whole damn thing didn't cost anywhere near that much. That is absolutely absurd. Especially when you throw in the slow service.

What's the matter, J.B.? Can't you write? If you're too lazy to say what you're thinking I sure as hell am not going to waste my time following half a dozen URLs. Didn't they teach you to do book reports in school? Aren't you intelligent and articulate enough to read something and write a cogent abstract about it? Why should we all read your original source material, which is generally written for people with fourth-grade educations and takes forever? This was the most arrogant series of posts I've ever seen. One URL is bad enough. Life is too short to follow URLs. Provide them as backup in case someone doesn't trust you or if they have an entertaining video.

WTF? I see J.B. has posted a bunch of pictures which speak for themselves.

thirteen thousand dollars and said it would take two weeks.:eek: ! Damn. I built a room in the basement of my old house, and the whole damn thing didn't cost anywhere near that much. That is absolutely absurd. Especially when you throw in the slow service.Corporate profits are at an all time high, wages at an all time low. God Help Us All if a working man with a trade makes a living wage! We need LOWER wages! So, illegals will take those livlihoods, professions and turn them into minimum wage or below jobs. Fraggles quote isn't the norm for all honest American tradesmen. There are shysters everywhere, we have one as president even. But celebrating the fall of the American worker is the ultimate treason. I'm wondering what will happen when the middle class is finally exterminated by the conservatives. Their dream of being a razor thin elite class suppported by the other 98% of us is here. Who will buy their goods when all our trades are deported to the 3rd World and to illegals? Profit, not patriotism is the goal of the righties. Their positions on American workers exposes their true feelings about the people that built their country.

All right J.B., I apologize for maligning you. Those were photos, not text. I get so tired of reading news articles written for middle-school dropouts, using a hundred words to do the work of twenty, that I don't usually follow people's URLs.

Nonetheless, those pictures are good for inflaming people's emotions but they hardly make a point. These days you can find a photo of just about anything; that's how those stupid cable "news" channels stay in business. Find something outrageous and put it on the air. I guarantee you right now somewhere in America there is a demonstration with picket signs by people demanding the right to have sex with dogs while skydiving over a freeway interchange at rush hour, and a Fox camera crew is covering it.

Getting a photo of some angry people protesting does not show how much sympathy there is for their cause. Some of those people protesting against white Americans were Indians, and I don't begrudge them the right to do that.

When we moved out of the city to a small town further north, we had to do our own lawnmowing and gardening for many years. We were willing to pay ten bucks an hour for brainless labor, and we don't work people very hard, give lots of breaks and fill them with food and drinks. That's more than minimum wage and it's more than most of the adults in our town make at their regular jobs. (The cost of living is pretty low.) Kids used to go around begging for work like this, we figured that at this wage they'd be lined up at our door. Only two kids were interested and when they went away to college there was nobody. Finally the Latinos came far enough north that they hit our town. And we've got somebody willing to do yard work for an affordable wage while being plied with sodas and sandwiches and cookies.

There really is work that Americans simply will not do. This isn't a slogan, it's the damn truth.

Your pictures say nothing about the issues that people get so riled up about: language and assimilation. The number one Spanish music radio station in Los Angeles, the American city with the largest Latino population, recently had to switch to English-language DJs. Why? The young Latinos don't think it's hip to speak Spanish. That's for their old fuddy-duddy parents. THEY WANT TO BE AMERICANS.

Just like the young Asian-Americans and the young Arab-Americans and the young whatever-Americans. They want to be like us. No matter where they come from, kids hate being outsiders.

The young North African immigrants in France want to be French too. They would just like to have jobs, that's all. Maybe nobody in France wants to pay to have their lawn mowed.