I am at Princeton for a few weeks at a physics school, and one of my room mates is Italian, who got his PhD in America, and is currently working in Denmark.

We were talking about the differences between European culture and American culture, and (this is something that I have heard in other places, too) he mentioned that the current negative population trends in Europe are exceedingly dangerous for several reasons. The first reason is, of course, the European social services (of which they are so proud) rely on having a large work force, who still pays taxes. But this isn't going to be the case in the future, when the current generarion retires.

If the European social services begin to deteriorate, one could imagine a similar situation as in Germany, c. 1930, where a nationalistic government gains power. The immigrant communities are very segregated in Europe, to my knowledge (I have heard several European friends complain about this), and it is not too hard to imagine such a government blaming immigrants for the collapsing social services.

I'm interested to hear what you smart people think about this---is it possible that there could be a cultural backlash by Europeans toward an immigrant minority? I don't think that the Germans will be firing up any gas chambers any time soon, but I could certainly imagine a rebirth of nationalism, or Europeanalism, if the continent's beloved social net begins to collapse.

Europe is likely to handle aging population, ethnic, and funding issues with unique aplomb. Fiscally, European health care is far more diversified than (for example) using tax as exclusive revenue source. Politically, there is resilience because the many strong trade unions are particularly keen to fight for social services. Funding varies country by country, so we'll have to get more specific, if we want to make comparisons with any other social-services structures.

BenTheMan: "is it possible that there could be a cultural backlash by Europeans toward an immigrant minority?"

There are cultural backlashes all the time- It's unfortunately part of human nature. Still, it seems (as I think you would agree) that Europe has experience with and a developed resistance to nationalized racism, holocausts, wars, etc, all of which pre-dated the economically-integrating EU.

"...a rebirth of nationalism, or Europeanalism, if the continent's beloved social net begins to collapse."

I don't see any sign of a Europe-wide collapse of social services. Europeans are not encumbered by a social net any more or less than they are empowered by it. The institutions evolved separately, and so are diversified against collective vulnerablility. One thing held in common opinion across Europe is that a social safety net is expected, even definitive, of a "developed" society. Social services have remained diversified right through the process of European integration with good reason.

The immigrant communities are very segregated in Europe, to my knowledge (I have heard several European friends complain about this), and it is not too hard to imagine such a government blaming immigrants for the collapsing social services.
Just check out the social services in the country's these immigrants came from.

There are cultural backlashes all the time- It's unfortunately part of human nature. Still, it seems (as I think you would agree) that Europe has experience with and a developed resistance to nationalized racism, holocausts, wars, etc, all of which pre-dated the economically-integrating EU.

Certainly. But people tend to have short memories. From what I hear, the unltra-conservative parties are becomming more and more popular in Europe, which seems to indicate a softening of the anti-nationalistism attitude that so many people adopted after the second world war.

One thing held in common opinion across Europe is that a social safety net is expected, even definitive, of a "developed" society.

And you don't think that, if that social net became untennable, that there may possibly by some outlash against under-productive/non-assimilated members of the society?

Just check out the social services in the country's these immigrants came from.

Absolutely---you'll find no argument here. It is also worth mentioning how ironic it is that the brand of Islam that some immigrants are adopting in the West would not be tolerated in countries like Turkey (where the government is strictly secular) and, at least as of recently, Pakistan. It is only because the West allows things like freedom of religion and freedom of speech that such radical opinions are tolerated. Or, to cite another example, how they are outraged at the trend in Europe to outlaw traditional garments (like burquas), whereas in some Muslim countries it is mandatory for women to cover themselves.

A tempest in a melting-pot.

Ben, you are asking the wrong people. We have not one chance of knowing what the international bankers have planned for Europe next year, let alone the next few years.

Ask a banker.

Absolutely---you'll find no argument here. It is also worth mentioning how ironic it is that the brand of Islam that some immigrants are adopting in the West would not be tolerated in countries like Turkey (where the government is strictly secular) and, at least as of recently, Pakistan. It is only because the West allows things like freedom of religion and freedom of speech that such radical opinions are tolerated. Or, to cite another example, how they are outraged at the trend in Europe to outlaw traditional garments (like burquas), whereas in some Muslim countries it is mandatory for women to cover themselves.For the West to prove it's "Freedom of religion" the West will have to allow Muslims to destroy it.

Yep Willy, all them Muzlims are hell-bent on destroying freedom of religion in the "West". :rolleyes:

What kind of madrasa did you learn this crap in?

The Muslim religion calls for it.

Every organized religion has proclaimed ultimate truth and ultimate victory for thousands of years, for so long you could even say religious and cultural wars are getting just a little old; ancient; buried. Relax, Willy: What you perceive as an all-out, total culture/religious war of annihilation is really just petty secular power-politics as usual.

You hope.

That's right, and hope can conquer fear, resignation, apathy, xenophobia, and paranoia. It's some good stuff. Try it.

That's right, and hope can conquer fear, resignation, apathy, xenophobia, and paranoia. It's some good stuff. Try it.

Sorry, hyper, but Willy is correct in one sense - a very important one. Islam is not tolerant of any OTHER religion, so there will always be friction with the others. It has nothing to do with "fear, resignation, apathy, xenophobia, and paranoia." It's just built into the very basis of their belief that all others are infidels.

We have not one chance of knowing what the international bankers have planned for Europe next year, let alone the next few years.

I don't know how much this has to do with anything---specifically, how do internaitonal bankers (directly) affect how many childeren Europeans have?

Islam is not tolerant of any OTHER religion, so there will always be friction with the others.

To be fair, I think that this statement probably doesn't apply to all of Islam.

Damn, Hype has some Rose colored glasses where Europe is concerned.

From what I hear, Europe is a dead man walking.

Its native population is dying off without reproducing and the immigrants coming to take their place have no interest in continuing European cultural traditions but rather seem determined to recreate the hell holes they came from.

Frankly, a right-wing reactionary takeover in Europe may be the only thing that might save it. But I seriously doubt they have it in them anymore.

I fully expect them to enjoy their social services and sneer at the barbaric Americans while their culture dies around them. I hope I'm wrong.

To be fair, I think that this statement probably doesn't apply to all of Islam.

Yes, it does - to all who follow the Quran. But to be completely fair, it's only the extremists that actually try to kill members of other religions. But all of them still consider everyone else to be an infidel. And that line between consertavite and extremist can be crossed all to easily at the urging of some fanatical idiot leader that's hungry for power. (And besides bin Laden, there are dozens of them running loose all over the world selling violence to the young and impressionable.)

That's right, and hope can conquer fear, resignation, apathy, xenophobia, and paranoia. It's some good stuff. Try it.
Hope can not conquer reality.

Hope can not conquer reality.It does it all the time. You can see this clearly by removing your shit coloured glasses and recognising that practicality is not the same as perfection.

Read-Only: "Islam is not tolerant of any OTHER religion"

You should know that's a lie. It's probably more reflexive for me to recognize. I've lived as a minority in several Muslim-majority countries. I've known many Muslims, studied the Qur'an, and seen first-hand that Islam is comparably tolerant as any other major religion. Presently, I'm trying to gain an inkling of the mindset that causes people like you to willfully spread easily-debunked smears and lies.

BenThenMan also corrected you on that: "To be fair, I think that this statement probably doesn't apply to all of Islam."

You're making a cheap smear in polite company, trying to blend this nonsense into more honest discussion. What motivates that?

Read-Only: "It has nothing to do with "fear, resignation, apathy, xenophobia, and paranoia." It's just built into the very basis of their belief that all others are infidels."

Hypocrisy and insecurity within a declining socio-political movement must cause the organism to rally the most impressionable faithful to attack a target selected for criticism, ridicule and scapegoating. It's the political equivalent of a child trying to deflect peer ridicule onto another.

madanthonywayne: "From what I hear, Europe is a dead man walking."

Here's another perfect example.

"Frankly, a right-wing reactionary takeover in Europe may be the only thing that might save it."

Here we have a fascist appeal trying to pass for honest discussion. Such a statement must be carefully inserted into sincere discussions, because most people will recognize and reject the fascist meme if it's honestly offered for educated discussion.

"I fully expect them to enjoy their social services and sneer at the barbaric Americans while their culture dies around them. I hope I'm wrong."

A prime example of hypocritical antagonism. Feeding hatred in an insecure emotional loop, obsessesing that an alien culture must have identically arrested political development. What a pitiful and embarrassing way to think, denying the behavior one both criticizes and exhibits.

Read-Only: "to be completely fair, it's only the extremists that actually try to kill members of other religions. But all of them still consider everyone else to be an infidel. And that line between consertavite and extremist can be crossed all to easily..."

Translation: This isn't a hateful statement, but all them Muslims could turn on us, and I hate them.

...is it possible that there could be a cultural backlash by Europeans toward an immigrant minority? I don't think that the Germans will be firing up any gas chambers any time soon, but I could certainly imagine a rebirth of nationalism, or Europeanalism, if the continent's beloved social net begins to collapse.The recent election in France tends to confirm this is a real posibility.

But all of them still consider everyone else to be an infidel.

That sort of goes with the definition.

Main Entry: in·fi·del
Pronunciation: 'in-f&-d&l, -f&-"del
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English infidele, from Middle French, from Late Latin infidelis unbelieving, from Latin, unfaithful, from in- + fidelis faithful -- more at FIDELITY

1 : one who is not a Christian or who opposes Christianity
2 a : an unbeliever with respect to a particular religion b : one who acknowledges no religious belief
3 : a disbeliever in something specified or understood


Which part are you arguing against?

Maybe to get back on track:

One thing we have been doing is to start by raising the retirement age. A few years ago it was 65, now its 67. Also, efforts are being made in order to attract more people to work here (greencard style). This is in Denmark, but there is no European effort as such (at least I am not aware of one). There is to great a difference between the countries in the EU. Basically, people should start to have babies.

Problem with immigrants is, that they have to be skilled labor. There are virtually no jobs for unskilled labor anymore, so they will have to be trained, and this requires language skills. So the poor people will face difficulties in getting in, since they often end up on social sevices. In the past, little effort was done to get them in to the workforce, which was a mistake. And now it is almost to late. So now we want more immigrants, this time preferably with higher education.

I am at Princeton for a few weeks at a physics school, and one of my room mates is Italian, who got his PhD in America, and is currently working in Denmark.

We were talking about the differences between European culture and American culture, and (this is something that I have heard in other places, too) he mentioned that the current negative population trends in Europe are exceedingly dangerous for several reasons. The first reason is, of course, the European social services (of which they are so proud) rely on having a large work force, who still pays taxes. But this isn't going to be the case in the future, when the current generarion retires.

If the European social services begin to deteriorate, one could imagine a similar situation as in Germany, c. 1930, where a nationalistic government gains power. The immigrant communities are very segregated in Europe, to my knowledge (I have heard several European friends complain about this), and it is not too hard to imagine such a government blaming immigrants for the collapsing social services.

I'm interested to hear what you smart people think about this---is it possible that there could be a cultural backlash by Europeans toward an immigrant minority? I don't think that the Germans will be firing up any gas chambers any time soon, but I could certainly imagine a rebirth of nationalism, or Europeanalism, if the continent's beloved social net begins to collapse.

By the time social services collapse the minorities will probably be the majorities and it may look like South Africa after apartheid ended. A few killings of white people and a return to some form of feudalism. When societies kill off their children it may be convenient in the short term but it bites them in the ass over time.

http://www.omdurman.org/europe_cancer.jpg

is it possible that there could be a cultural backlash by Europeans toward an immigrant minority? I don't think that the Germans will be firing up any gas chambers any time soon, but I could certainly imagine a rebirth of nationalism, or Europeanalism, if the continent's beloved social net begins to collapse.

you know the old saying: "history repeats itself"
it does. people's minds can be changed very quickly about things. an enlightened society can transform into a bloodthirsty society within a few decades... the germans weren't [always?] bloodthirsty so when Hitler came they embraced the Final Solution. probably only a few decades before that they were very accepting and enlightened.

Did you know that most [African Americans] secretly sympathize with the [Black Panthers]? That's right, I know what they want, like I know what you want, which can't be what I want.

Can it.

What the hell you want?

Mofo

Another beer, DH.

I think this is getting kind of out of hand. I was hoping to have some sort of orderly discussion about this topic, because it is one that I am interested in.

Read-Only:

Yes, it does - to all who follow the Quran. But to be completely fair, it's only the extremists that actually try to kill members of other religions.

One could say the same things about Christians.

you know the old saying: "history repeats itself"

This is exactly what my italian friend was worried about. The rascism faced by immigrants in Europe is much worse than anything in America---while the social services in Europe are much better, the attitude of the European people is far different. (I have this opinion after talking to many people who spent time in Europe, both white people and minorities. For example, a Bengali friend of mine said that the worst rascism he ever experienced wasn't in Texas---where he was a post doc---but in Paris, France.)

It seems to me that this tension between non-European immigrants and Europeans, coupled with a collapsing social net, would make the environment ripe for radical nationalism.

1) Good for Europe. They needed the immigrants to work, and they invited them into their country willingly. It was only a matter of time before this happened.

2) I hope one day Britain faces the same problem it has posed on almost every portion of land on the globe.

BeenTheMan: "I was hoping to have some sort of orderly discussion about this topic"

This isn't an orderly topic. If you can't handle that, maybe you should PM an orderly (just do it in an orderly fashion please): Try not to disturb those hiding from their respective unknowns.

"The rascism faced by immigrants in Europe is much worse than anything in America---while the social services in Europe are much better, the attitude of the European people is far different."

I know, I went to the Czech Republic for a job, and a lot of girls wanted to buy me beer and fuck me, then have me stay for breakfast to talk about flying with their Dads. It's terrafucking over there. I mean tara-forming. Shit. I mean terrifying.

"The rascism faced by immigrants in Europe is much worse than anything in America---while the social services in Europe are much better, the attitude of the European people is far different."

I know, I went to the Czech Republic, and all the girls wanted to buy me beer and fuck me, then have me stay for breakfast to talk about flying with their Dads. It's terrifing over there.

Does your wife know why you want to move there?:bugeye:

Yeah, she's figured it fer sure. Can't go to Czech solo anymore :(

Yeah, she figured it out. Can't go to Czech on my own now :(

Sailors can't be trusted, especially the ones in still waters that run deep. :bugeye:

Aye, but I always bring me Wellies.

Aye, but I always bring me Wellies.

For the beer?:confused:

So you'll recognize me someday.

Ah so! :D

1) Good for Europe. They needed the immigrants to work, and they invited them into their country willingly. It was only a matter of time before this happened.

2) I hope one day Britain faces the same problem it has posed on almost every portion of land on the globe.
Of course, as a consequence of (1), if (2) happens a lot of Muslims will go down with it. Be careful what you wish for :rolleyes:

Of course, as a consequence of (1), if (2) happens a lot of Muslims will go down with it. Be careful what you wish for :rolleyes:

Not their land and culture to lose.

Read-Only: "Islam is not tolerant of any OTHER religion"

You should know that's a lie. I'm trying to gain an inkling of the mindset that causes people like you to willfully spread easily-debunked smears and lies.Well, it might have something to do with Islam imposing the death penalty for converting to another religion. Or maybe the fact that Islamic extreemist's are in conflict with every religion they come into contact with from animists, to Hindus, to Christians.
Here we have a fascist appeal trying to pass for honest discussion. Such a statement must be carefully inserted into sincere discussions, because most people will recognize and reject the fascist meme if it's honestly offered for educated discussion.It's been a while since I've been called a fascist. I can always count on Hype.:)

Not their land and culture to lose.Muslims will attempt to lower the standards of life to their own.

Good will beat evil.

http://home.comcast.net/~jimsondergeld/Hitler_Uber_Allah.jpg

Not their land and culture to lose.
No, just their homes and livelihood :rolleyes:

Yeah, she's figured it fer sure. Can't go to Czech solo anymore :(

All the fittest birds live in the czech republic (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5386634760205675938)

Karma is sure biting Europe in the ass right now for its mistreatment of non-Europeans for hundreds of years. Now ethnic minorities will basically overrun Western European countries, hehehe. Cool :D

Maybe Europe will cause less problems for the world now.

We should all lighten up, this is great news for most of the world. Europe will be less destructive now ;)

Karma is sure biting Europe in the ass right now for its mistreatment of non-Europeans for hundreds of years. Now ethnic minorities will basically overrun Western European countries, hehehe. Cool :D

Maybe Europe will cause less problems for the world now.

Who says Europe is causing problems in the world today? And destructive? I think you are confusing continents here.................

We should all lighten up, this is great news for most of the world. Europe will be less destructive now ;)

You're posting this from the states??

Reality is merely perception, Willy.

Take 9/11, for instance. After the news came in, the company was deciding what to do. That decision was made for them after Seattle authorities decided to clear the downtown area. As we left the building, one of my co-workers was in tears. "Who would do this?" she asked. "Why?" I told her there were a few candidates, and we'd most likely find out soon.

The idea that there were candidates to pull off the job, much less something that resembled a reason, shocked her. And perhaps it should have. She was one of those people unfortunate enough to have been bred on the idea that American society had zero association with evil.

I can't imagine living 30+ years and never realizing that the U.S. had its hand in some pretty nasty stuff.

Her reality, my reality. Certainly there seems to be a reality in which things happen, but our perceptions and descriptions of those events are necessarily inaccurate.

Islam is not tolerant of any OTHER religion

Tolerance may be a problem with many modern Muslims, but the religion laid out in the Koran acknowledges the propriety of other religions. Sufis, while currently associated with Islam (though claiming to predate Abraham), see their own kind in other religions.

Think of it analogously. Christians are instructed in the Bible to hate their families. Now, this doesn't mean hate the way we generally read the word today. But what it does mean is the antithesis of how many American Christians conduct themselves. For instance, it means you don't bend over backwards to ignore or tacitly condone your children's misbehavior for family pride (e.g. avoiding the disgrace of admitting your children are ill-behaved).

The underlying religion says one thing. The practical faith in society does another. (It also keeps Christians from being lined up against the wall, but that's a different issue.)

If we in the infidel West don't appreciate the state of Islam today, truth is we shouldn't have worked so hard to make it that way.

Furthermore, as Hype suggests, not all Muslims have fallen to this state of disarray. He stands in good company. I know for a fact that Roger Waters would agree with him. Rog was kind enough to share that story with us last he came through town.

You're posting this from the states??

Amerikkka has caused many problems for the world too, I won't deny that. One day, ethnic minorities will be the majority in America as well....thank goodness. America will certainly cause less problems for the world when that day occurs too, trust me ;)

Who says Europe is causing problems in the world today? And destructive? I think you are confusing continents here.................

If you are talking about the continent Amerikkka is in, I won't deny it is causing problems as well. America will see its ethnic minorities outnumber the majority soon enough, thank goodness. Karma is going to bite Amerikkka up the ass too, it already is, slowly. I'm just saying Europe is ALSO paying for its sins of murdering, raping, plundering, and pillaging other continents for hundreds of years. Now the people from ALL the continents Europe has fucked over in the past will be the MAJORITY within 20 years IN EUROPE :D
Wow, who saw that coming?
Karma is a bitch, and the native European population just has to suck it up. Just like Africa had to suck it up after Belgium, England, Spain and other nations with a massive murderous past raped Africa of its gold and its people. There is some justice in this world, no?

No, just their homes and livelihood :rolleyes:

A small price to pay.

If you are talking about the continent Amerikkka is in, I won't deny it is causing problems as well. America will see its ethnic minorities outnumber the majority soon enough, thank goodness. Karma is going to bite Amerikkka up the ass too, it already is, slowly. I'm just saying Europe is ALSO paying for its sins of murdering, raping, plundering, and pillaging other continents for hundreds of years. Now the people from ALL the continents Europe has fucked over in the past will be the MAJORITY within 20 years IN EUROPE :D
Wow, who saw that coming?
Karma is a bitch, and the native European population just has to suck it up. Just like Africa had to suck it up after Belgium, England, Spain and other nations with a massive murderous past raped Africa of its gold and its people. There is some justice in this world, no?

Hmmm, not likely. They will turn into europeans soon enough. Anyway, Buhoo, so the europeans were mean to you 50 years ago. So what?

I think we'll handle it. It's a complex problem and it needs a complex solution, and it will take time to find the right balance, but in the end it will be worth it.

Yes, there is a huge problem of people abusing the social security system, and the worst offenders happen to be immigrants, but I don't think that there will be huge racist uprising or anything like that - Europe has always been a pretty diverse place.

I think we'll handle it. It's a complex problem and it needs a complex solution, and it will take time to find the right balance, but in the end it will be worth it.

Yes, there is a huge problem of people abusing the social security system, and the worst offenders happen to be immigrants, but I don't think that there will be huge racist uprising or anything like that - Europe has always been a pretty diverse place.

So you consider the riots and car burnings in France (by immigrants) not too far back to be just a non-event?

Amerikkka has caused many problems for the world too, I won't deny that. One day, ethnic minorities will be the majority in America as well....thank goodness.

Yeah no doubt it will be a utopia :rolleyes:

America will certainly cause less problems for the world when that day occurs too, trust me ;)

Why should I, is there anything that lends creedence to that stupidity? Just sounds like your own prejudice talking to me.

So you consider the riots and car burnings in France (by immigrants) not too far back to be just a non-event?

Nothing important. There are always small clashes. It's only natural.

Nothing important. There are always small clashes. It's only natural.

I think that you are downplaying this event too much. What does ``it's only natural'' mean?

"What does ``it's only natural'' mean?"

To me, it acknowledges that some situations do not have a remedy. Consequences; change- and not always for better. Two milliseconds before impact in a fall, injury may not have occured yet. Still, injury may be understood to be likely in the immediate future. It's only natural that at a certain point in time, what happens just happens beyond anyone's control, even if nobody benefits. There always have and always will come events that proceed without regard for your future and mine.

Maybe Europe will cause less problems for the world now.

u mean like spreading the industrial revolution across world?

yeah, we can only hope...

She was one of those people unfortunate enough to have been bred on the idea that American society had zero association with evil.

I can't imagine living 30+ years and never realizing that the U.S. had its hand in some pretty nasty stuff.
You think like a terrorist.

hasnt this happend already kkk the teddys skin heads etc? all we need is a leader to fire of somthing like hitler and that's what would happen, would be so nasty and cruel thing to do though

Willy: "You think like a terrorist [,Tiassa]."

He looks like 1-2. Let's git 'im.

If you are talking about the continent Amerikkka is in, I won't deny it is causing problems as well. America will see its ethnic minorities outnumber the majority soon enough, thank goodness. Karma is going to bite Amerikkka up the ass too, it already is, slowly. I'm just saying Europe is ALSO paying for its sins of murdering, raping, plundering, and pillaging other continents for hundreds of years. Now the people from ALL the continents Europe has fucked over in the past will be the MAJORITY within 20 years IN EUROPE :D
Wow, who saw that coming?
Karma is a bitch, and the native European population just has to suck it up. Just like Africa had to suck it up after Belgium, England, Spain and other nations with a massive murderous past raped Africa of its gold and its people. There is some justice in this world, no?

Not if they (France) gets rid of the people who voluntarily went there and are looking to destroy the country, they did elect a conservative because they were tired of the abuse. There is no such thing as Karma, it is a mechanism to ease the mind of the underacheiver, shit in one hand wish in the other. The problem is compounded when people look in the mirror and dont like what they see. You would be surprised how much vanity plays a part in bad behavior, they ask 'why did i have to be born looking like this, and i am poor too' now i am going to take it out on someone else...my problem will be their proble' of course this is on the individual basis.

For national problems I look at how people treat their own and look at the genocide in Africa or injustices in Asia to know that i am correct.

America will see its ethnic minorities outnumber the majority soon enough, thank goodness.

Personally I like Mexicans.:shrug: