You can not blame Europe, can you?

European Fears of the Gathering Jihad it also aimed at establishing permanently in Europe a massive Arab-Muslim presence by the immigration
www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=6262

European Fears of the Gathering Jihad
By Bat Ye’or
FrontPageMagazine.com | February 21, 2003


The pro-Saddam Hussein European manifestations of February 15th that brought millions into the streets of European capitals are the culmination of Charles de Gaulle’s political vision of a European destiny led by France. During World War II de Gaulle was the leader of French resistance against the Nazis, but his post-war anti-Americanism rallied many of his previous enemies. Hostility to America and antisemitism were strong in various French circles: the communists, the left, and particularly among the numerous politicians, civil servants, intellectuals and businessmen, who had willingly collaborated with the Germans. Those political currents had important links with the Arab-Muslim world.

De Gaulle’s vision intended to restore to France a dominant role in international affairs by the construction of a strong and united Europe as a counter-weight to American power. After the loss of Algeria in 1962, France’s last Arab colony, de Gaulle oriented his policy toward the Arab-Muslim world. During the 1960s, a French Mediterranean policy was elaborated, which would link as an economic and political geostrategical unit the European Community (EC) and the Arab League countries. But Arab collaboration had a price: the elimination of Israel. In spite of France’s efforts to bring its European partners closer to Arab views, many countries were reluctant to follow this path. At that time, the Arab-Israeli conflict didn’t provoke any interest or declaration from the EC.

After the Syro-Egyptian October 1973 war against Israel, and the third Arab defeat, the Arab oil producers proclaimed an oil embargo, increased the oil price four times, lowered the production, and classified the consuming countries into friends, enemies, or neutrals. Now, France’s maneuvers to align the EC on the Arab anti-Israeli policy in order to create a strong Euro-Arab bloc succeeded. The nine countries of the EC, meeting in Brussels (November 6, 1973) issued a joint Resolution, which endorsed the Franco-Arab policy in respect to Israel.

In 1974 the Parliamentary Association for Euro-Arab Cooperation was founded to strengthen the political, economic and cultural co-operation between Europe and the Arab world. The Association had about 600 members in 18 national Parliaments of the countries of the enlarged European Union (EU), as well as in the European Parliament – and all the major trends in European politics were represented. This Association organized regular meetings with Arab leaders and politicians and served as a channel between them and the European governments, the Presidency of the European Council of Ministers, and the Commission of the European Communities. In other words, it was a most powerful Arab lobby functioning through European functionaries, built into the European institutions to influence European policy at its summit.

In the following years, this body was reinforced by a political, economical and cultural structure, named the Euro-Arab Dialogue, which united at the highest level the EC – later to become the European Union – and the countries of the Arab League. The Europeans tried to maintain the Dialogue on a base of economic relations, while the Arab countries tied the oil and business markets to the European alignment on their anti-Israeli policies. Even though some countries were reluctant to follow this path, the joint proclamations of the EU concerning the Arab-Israeli conflict endorsed the anti-Israeli points established previously by the Second Islamic Conference in Lahore, Pakistan (February 1974).

Henceforth, an associative diplomacy binding the Arab-Muslim countries and the EU developed in international forums and especially in decisions concerning the Middle East conflict. During Euro-Arab symposiums the oil threat was brandished and pressure was exerted on the EU, as a reminder that economic relations were inexorably tied to Europe’s political alignment with Arab anti-Zionist policy. However, the Dialogue was not restricted to influencing European foreign policy against Israel and detaching Europe from America, it also aimed at establishing permanently in Europe a massive Arab-Muslim presence by the immigration and settlement of millions of Muslims with equal rights for all, native-born and migrants alike. This policy endeavored to integrate Europe and the Arab-Muslim world into one political and economic bloc, by mixing populations (multiculturalism) while weakening the Atlantic solidarity and isolating America.

To facilitate Muslim settlements in the West, cultural changes in school teaching, universities and social life were imposed. Textbooks were rewritten in view of allaying Muslim susceptibilities, and university teachings in Middle East and Islamic history soon conformed to Arab-Muslim norms and their worldview. Recommendations were emphatically and repeatedly imposed for spreading the knowledge of the Arabic language in Europe, and the learning about the superior Islamic history and civilization. As these decisions were taken, and then implemented through the mechanism of the Dialogue that covered every country of the EU, a profound cultural Islamization — through the network of schools, universities and the blessing of Islamophile clergymen — conditioned the mentalities of two generations of European youth. To this cultural transformation was added from within the demographic pressure of an ever-increasing Muslim immigration and, from without, an all-encompassing symbiosis on every level with the Arab-Muslim world. This symbiosis built on the system of the Euro-Arab Dialogue, and hence approved by the higher political authorities of the EU, covered book publishing, university exchanges, television, press and radio collaboration, theological rapprochement, youth meetings, and intense collaboration between numerous ONG organizations, humanitarian activities, workers unions, economical and financial relations. Scientific, nuclear and military training were provided as, for exemple, France’s nuclear program with Iraq, culminating in the construction of the nuclear reactor Osirak, destroyed by Israel in 1981.

The development of those complex ties between the Arab-Muslim world and the EU was, at its core, conditioned by an anti-Israeli and anti-American policy, the Arab ambition being to detach Europe from its Atlantic ally. As Palestinian and Islamic terrorism developed, the EU — anxious to save its growing and multiple interests in the Muslim world — accused Israel and U.S. policy of provoking it. Rather than confronting Islamic terrorism, European leaders resorted to appeasement by condemning Israel. Anti-Zionism, integrated into the developing Euro-Arab relations became a European sub-culture of hate, denigration and disinformation, nourished by the inner dynamic of the Euro-Arab Dialogue that led to the rise of Eurabia. Opposing views were silenced to maintain a monolithic façade of Islamic correctness in the press and publications. From September 2000, the outburst of Palestinian terrorism within Israel triggered a violent antisemitic wave in Europe as if it had become the heart of Arabism.

France, Germany and Belgium, the troika leading Eurabia, imposed monolithic orders for the EU and their African satellites. An alliance with the Organization of the Islamic Conference, comprising 56 countries, would provide world supremacy at the UN in some issues. The Euro-Arab bloc’s reliance on UN “international legitimacy” is based on its virtual control of this forum. Essential to the Arab League’s policy in relation to Israel, Arafat — the godfather of international terrorism — became the key regulator between the EU and the Arabs. The EU assumed the main funding of the Palestinian Authority, and until now the European Parliament refuses any investigation of how more than a billion euros of European taxpayers’ money, transferred to Arafat, has been used.

Today the Iraqi crisis confronts the EU governments with three decades of pusillanimous policy based on oil, markets, short-term economic gains, and an imperialist ambition of domination. It is practically impossible now in Europe to control Islamic terrorism either from within or without. Nor can the EU accept the destruction of the multifarious symbiosis created by all European political parties with the Arab and Muslim world, to the detriment of their own country's security. Europe has undergone a profound structural and demographic change, which is not yet fully perceived by Europeans, even less by Americans. This transformation of a Judeo-Christian based-civilization and culture by strong trends of Islamization is creating social, political and cultural grounds for confrontations that could provoke dangerous social implosions. The drifting away of Europeans from America is not, therefore, due to their superior moral exigencies, as some superficial analysts write. Rather, this drift reveals a traumatic fear of a terrorism that the EU always refused to acknowledge, scapegoating instead Israel and America. It reveals the preservation, at all costs, of Arab and Muslim corrupt dictatorships, including Arafat, with whom the EU has built its economic and international political strategy, power and security. And, more threatening, it indicates a profound transformation, a mutation, whereby a civilization is drifting toward 'dhimmitude.'*

Our ancestors spent countless years forcing back the Moslem hordes. We are now betraying them through unfettered immigration that is ruining our civilization.

The decline of Europe is imminent unless the Arabic-Islamic immigration is halted. In fact, I suggest an indefinite moratorium on ALL immigration of those not of European extraction (Americans, Canadians, Australians, and New Zealanders, mainly).

The decline of Europe is imminent unless the Arabic-Islamic immigration is halted.

I agree, but it's not just Europe that's being threatened.

Baron Max

Obviously not. America, Canada, and the rest of the world, really, is threatened. But specifically Europe and her seedling cultures.

Prince J. & Baron M., I can understand that senator from Virginia that warns about Muslim immigration too.

That's the legacy of colonialism. Is Britain threatened by proliferation of curry? Their European ancestors also spent alot of time (somewhat after repelling the hordes), in trying to conquer Muslim territory. Algeria for instance.

That's the legacy of colonialism. Is Britain threatened by proliferation of curry? Their European ancestors also spent alot of time (somewhat after repelling the hordes), in trying to conquer Muslim territory. Algeria for instance.
You mean France (in Algeria)?

Yes, it sounded like I meant Algeria was British, but I meant many European countries had colonies, an immigration from there is that legacy. They speak the language for one thing, and there are probably cultural ties.

I agree, but it's not just Europe that's being threatened.It's been noted that for all the high-profile tension alleged by the media and the rednecks between the new families immigrating from Muslim lands and Americans from traditional Christian and Jewish families, their children show promising signs of assimilating eventually the way all previous waves of immigrants have. The problem with the European countries and their Muslim immigrants is that they are not assimilating. The children of the immigrants often don't learn the national language because they find there's nothing much they can do with it.

The French, Swedes and Germans seem unable to permit people who are really different from becoming European. No matter how strange people look and what gods they pray to, we Americans have a habit of losing track of their ancestry so long as they learn just four things: speak English, eat pizza, enjoy rock and roll, and talk knowledgeably about baseball.

Whilst I am wary of Moslems here in America (specifically as several were arrested for terrorist ties near my house) I am nonethless in agreement that American Moslems are far more culturally assimilated than in Europe.

This is positive, as -atleast- they are not virulently anti-American. However, there have been more than a few sleeper cells found, and I do not want their religion to corrupt American society, specifically as we also have to deal with an influx of illegal immigration and various other things.

Well if the fear is "ligitimate", then what can we do?...

Arab immigration is not a problem in and of itself. The problem is integrating immigrants into society, so that they become part of it instead of alienated from it like the French youths who burn down cars and riot.

I am. . . in agreement that American Moslems are far more culturally assimilated than in Europe. However. . . I do not want their religion to corrupt American society. . .I am second to none in my revulsion at religion, particularly the Abrahamist varieties whose pathetically oversimplified model of the human spirit inevitably brings out the worst in us. Nonetheless, to single out Islam and worry about its "corrupting" influence on any people is to give Christianity an absolution it has not earned. The Crusades, the Inquisition, the obliteration of two entire civilizations, slavery, the Holocaust, nuclear attacks on cities, sexism, the backlash against science, persecution of homosexuals... the active evil of Christianity and the Christian peoples continues in full force right into the current year.

Islam is about 600 years younger than Christianity and throughout its history it has provided a rather consistent 600-year time warped view into Christianity's past. What is sadder is that Christianity's repugnant post-Enlightenment present may well be a crystal ball into Islam's future even as scholars hail portents of its own "Enlightenment."

"The pro-Saddam Hussein European manifestations of February 15th that brought millions into the streets of European capitals are the culmination of Charles de Gaulle’s political vision"

LOL


Prince_James:"there have been more than a few sleeper cells found [inthe USA]."

Would you please substantiate that?

Prince J. & Baron M., I can understand that senator from Virginia that warns about Muslim immigration too.

Not a senator, house member Virgil Goode.

Not a senator, house member Virgil Goode.He and his Religious Redneck Retard pals are not in the slightest concerned about what Islam might do to America. All they care about is what it might do to Christendom.

this is Europe in the future
http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=916552

All I get is funny text. And not the hilarous kind.

this is Europe in the future
http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=916552
No, it's OK. I can understand your fear and bewilderment, but you're quite safe. The day of Ashura (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4274749.stm) isn't part of our calendar.
All I get is funny text. And not the hilarous kind.
It's a video that some Aussies have made, showing muslim self-flagellation rituals, in commemoration of Mohammed's grandson (a muslim marytr). Apparently these Aussies take this as meaning that Europe is somehow doomed, in a way that they don't specify.

All I get is funny text. And not the hilarous kind.

just click on the blue button in the middle. if you dont want to search on you tube the words "arab europe" and press the video with the title "europe wake up"

N
Apparently these Aussies take this as meaning that Europe is somehow doomed, in a way that they don't specify.

where on earth did they get that crazy idea?

He and his Religious Redneck Retard pals are not in the slightest concerned about what Islam might do to America. All they care about is what it might do to Christendom.

Well duh. Do you think Arab countries would let in millions of Christians that would threaten Islam?

Well duh. Do you think Arab countries would let in millions of Christians that would threaten Islam?

Well, they might. But even if they did, the Christians would have to follow all the laws, rules and customs of the Muslims ...on threat of beheading! :D

Baron Max

None of my Christian friends and family in Muslim lands have been threatened with anything, and certainly not with beheading.

None of my Christian friends and family in Muslim lands have been threatened with anything, and certainly not with beheading.

That's because they followed all the many rules and regulations ...veeeerry carefully!

Baron Max

(besides, I didn't know you had any friends???)

"they followed all the many rules and regulations ...veeeerry carefully!"

Their lives are no more regimented than those of Christians living in the USA.

"they followed all the many rules and regulations ...veeeerry carefully!"

Their lives are no more regimented than those of Christians living in the USA.

You'd have to go a loooooooonnnnngg, loooooonnnng ways to convince many people of that bullshit!!! Anyone who has read National Geographic knows better than that, much less people who have studied those Muslim nations.

Once again, Hype, I'm finding that you're either totally biased, or just full of ....ooops, can't say that!!

Baron Max

Shit. I'm sorry to have to be the one to break it to you, Baron. One learns more by actually traveling than by reading glossy travel magazines. It's sad that you have arrived at seniority without realizing this.

Shit. I'm sorry to have to be the one to break it to you, Baron. One learns more by actually traveling than by reading glossy travel magazines.

No, you don't, Hype!! In fact, it's almost exactly the opposite. Because a tourist can't or won't go into some of the places that a report can or will go. Thus the magazines tend to be a much, much better source of factual info than a dumb fuckin' tourist who's kept only in the nicer places of the nations.

It's sad that you have arrived at seniority without realizing this.

You have no ideas about where I've been in the world, Hype. But I can tell you this ....the places where I've been I learned lots more about them thru magazines and tv shows than I did wandering around for real.

Baron Max

I know I’ve posted this over and over but why not make it mandatory to teach children from a relatively early age the archeological evidence for the polytheistic beginings and evolution into monotheisms?

Then the next generation of European Jews and Xians and Muslims can learn where their traditions really came from. In this way the power of information is ripped from the hands of some nutty cult leader and placed into the hands of a consensus of academics; whom are more trustworthy.

Children can learn there never was a Mosses nor a Jesus and that Mohammed was greatly influenced by (and may have been a) ultra conservative Arab-Jew who may have had temporal-lobe epilepsy. The polytheistic traditions of walking around square rocks for Muslims or celebrating festivities on December 25th could be elucidated, etc....


Michael

Hypewaders:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/fyi/lesson.plans/09/15/buffalo.discusson/

One such case.

Prince_James: "there have been more than a few sleeper cells found ."

...the federal prosecutor whose office won the guilty pleas, Michael A. Battle, does not call them a terrorist cell. "It's a heavy burden to prove," he said, "and I wasn't prepared to do that."

"Everybody wanted to think of this the way they thought of Sept. 11, as a group working together, in unison to do something. I wasn't prepared to say that."

...Prosecutors had determined that the suspects' presence in the camp was enough to charge them with providing "material support" to a terrorist organization. This was based mainly on one previous case — the prosecution of John Walker Lindh, the American who joined the Taliban.

Faysal Galab pleaded guilty first and the five others followed, acknowledging that they assisted Al Qaeda by training in Afghanistan. They are to be sentenced soon, to prison terms of up to 10 years. One reason they pleaded guilty, according to lawyers involved in the case, was that prosecutors were likely to file gun charges for training with weapons, which could have carried prison terms of 30 years.

[i]Unclear Danger: Inside the Lackawanna Terror Case (http://www.geocities.com/munichseptember1972/unclear_danger.htm)

So the "Lackawanna 6" you reference above were convicted of attending al-Qaeda camps. But there was no discovery of terrorist planning, or preparation for any terrorist attack on their parts; no conviction for any terrorist activities whatsoever within the USA.

These men were curious about al-Qaeda, and did initially lie about their trip to Kandahar for a 6-week basic-training course. They penetrated very far into al-Qaeda, even meeting OBL. Then, apparently, they quit.

Where's the Terror? - Reason Magazine (http://www.reason.com/news/show/36832.html)

I don't rule out the existence of sleeper cells in the USA. But to my knowledge, none have been discovered as of yet. Am I missing something?

I don't rule out the existence of sleeper cells in the USA. But to my knowledge, none have been discovered as of yet. Am I missing something?

Yeah, you are. Exactly the same can be said of vicious murderers ...until the crime has been committed or attempted, to the best of our knowledge, those people aren't murderers. Just because we don't have knowledge of them is no sign that they aren't prepared to murder some of us.

But as to the Muslim terrorists, my best guess is that the FBI and the local police probably know of and are watchful of many such suspected cells. If they told you about them, then what do you think would happen???

Baron Max

Oh so they are keeping it a secret. For how long?

Hypewaders:

I think it is enough to have one well publicized case of men involved in Al'qaeda in America, don't you think?

I'll find you some others later, also.

Oh so they are keeping it a secret. For how long?

Do you have even the foggiest idea of what "sleeper cell" means and/or implies? If you did, you wouldn't even ask such a question.

Baron Max

Oh how convenient. We know they exist. But they are sleeper cells, so we don't.

Hypewaders: I think it is enough to have one well publicized case of men involved in Al'qaeda in America, don't you think?

I'll find you some others later, also.

If they're well-publicized it means that they've been exposed ...which automatically means they're not "sleeper cells" any longer.

The problem with sleeper cells is that they're just that ....secretive and awaiting a call for action. I think the FBI and local cops know about plenty of those groups, but what can they do about it? Until they act, they've committed no crime (unless they stockpile exposives or weapons, in which case they'd be arrested).

I doubt that you'll find that the FBI will publicize the locations of all of the sleeper cells that they know about. Would you? Or would you just keep them under some form of surviellance?

Baron Max

Oh so they are keeping it a secret. For how long?

Until they find -

1. OBL

2. WMDs in Iraq

;)

Oh how convenient. We know they exist. But they are sleeper cells, so we don't.

Don't do much thinkin', do ya', Nick? Why? Does it give you a headache?

Baron Max

Until they find -

1. OBL

2. WMDs in Iraq

;)

I see.

Until they find - 1. OBL 2. WMDs in Iraq

Just stirring the shit pot, Sam? :rolleyes:

And you know damned well that there were WMD in Iraq ...you've made mention of it just recently in one of your "hate America" posts.

Baron Max

Just stirring the shit pot, Sam? :rolleyes:

And you know damned well that there were WMD in Iraq ...you've made mention of it just recently in one of your "hate America" posts.

Baron Max

Hi Maximus,

happy new year to you.

Yes there were WMD in Iraq before 1991 and the subsequent UN weapons clear up, but this was known about in the 80's as the materials were supplied by the west and russia, why take over 10 years to do something about it. Iraq did not have wmd, when the US/Uk invaded in 2003

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As always
Zak

Just stirring the shit pot, Sam? :rolleyes:

And you know damned well that there were WMD in Iraq ...you've made mention of it just recently in one of your "hate America" posts.

Baron Max

Unless they've moved the goal posts again, those are the stated claims of the "war against terror"

Or aren't they?:rolleyes:

After two centuries of occupying Arab countries in the ME and Africa it appears it's payback time! While Brits, French, Italians, Spanish, Portuguese, Germans, Dutch and Belgians plundered the resources of these countries, imposed slavery and backed murderous regimes to benefit White Europe the Arabs & Africans are flooding in. I personally find it amusing and justified. The same is happening in the USA with former colonies of ours and Europe flooding into America, to plunder resources, Just Like We Did.

Baron Max:

Yes, I am certain of your theories, also. however, I am fairly certain several such cells have been openly outed.

Is "ligitimate" a legitimate word in English?

After two centuries of occupying Arab countries in the ME and Africa it appears it's payback time! While Brits, French, Italians, Spanish, Portuguese, Germans, Dutch and Belgians plundered the resources of these countries, imposed slavery and backed murderous regimes to benefit White Europe the Arabs & Africans are flooding in. I personally find it amusing and justified. The same is happening in the USA with former colonies of ours and Europe flooding into America, to plunder resources, Just Like We Did.

And here I thought two wrongs didn't make a right. :rolleyes:

After two centuries of occupying Arab countries in the ME and Africa it appears it's payback time! While Brits, French, Italians, Spanish, Portuguese, Germans, Dutch and Belgians plundered the resources of these countries, imposed slavery and backed murderous regimes to benefit White Europe the Arabs & Africans are flooding in. I personally find it amusing and justified. The same is happening in the USA with former colonies of ours and Europe flooding into America, to plunder resources, Just Like We Did.
There is a myth about 'all Arabs being native everywhere the middle east', To be true to history, the Berbers were before the other Arabs conquerd them in N. Africa like in Morocco & in Algeria.
The same as to the indigenous Egyptians Nubians ythen the Coptic Christians and not today's mostly 'modern Arabs' the occupiers..

And here I thought two wrongs didn't make a right. :rolleyes:


*cough*:o

Well, Sam, those are fine cartoons, but there was violence against Jews in the ME long before bombers, and before the 1948 war. Are there any cartoons for that?

I expect they'd run something like:

Angry Arab: "Those frigging infidels! How dare they treat us as subhuman? We, muslims, are people too!"

Occidental Jew: "How about us?"

Angry Arab: [smack] "Shut up, frigging infidel!"

Hi Maximus,

happy new year to you.

Yes there were WMD in Iraq before 1991 and the subsequent UN weapons clear up, but this was known about in the 80's as the materials were supplied by the west and russia, why take over 10 years to do something about it. Iraq did not have wmd, when the US/Uk invaded in 2003

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As always
Zak
Who's to say the WMD are not in Syria?

*cough*:o

Lozenge, m'lady? ;)

Who's to say the WMD are not in Syria?

hi Skater,


Maybe, maybe not, but if Saddam had still been in power there is more chance of Maximus not swearing at me all year than Assad doing Saddam any favours!!! And saddam knows this, just look what happeneed to his airforce in 1991, when he sent them to iran. I dont beleive the iranians gave any of them back. i dont beleive for one minute this syria angle.

dont tell me you think assad would just give them back

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
take care
zak

Gengi,? I believe that slavery existed in the middle east since the time that history was recorded, and that the fountain head of the slave trade springs from the Arab's in the middle east/Africa, and that to this day the Arab Moslems still practice the abomination of slavery.

Zakariya, I do believe that Assad would give Saddam a helping hand, and then no he would not return the WMD, he would have his own use's for them. We haven't seen the last of Saddams WMD, they will come back to bite all of us eventually.

Obviously not. America, Canada, and the rest of the world, really, is threatened. But specifically Europe and her seedling cultures.

Worldwide, Europeans are a minority.

Worldwide, Europeans are a minority.


its because they have small p3n1s and no sp3rms. europeans cant reproduce and fire empty shot unlike the indians. so they are fuck3d. boo hooo indians are coming watch out u stupid non computer literate idiots. hahahahahaha
indians will rule very country, every street and you all will be eating curry for rest of your lives...hyahahahahah m0r0ns

its because they have small p3n1s and no sp3rms. europeans cant reproduce and fire empty shot unlike the indians. so they are fuck3d. boo hooo indians are coming watch out u stupid non computer literate idiots. hahahahahaha
indians will rule very country, every street and you all will be eating curry for rest of your lives...hyahahahahah m0r0ns

Hmm. Kind of fond of India myself, and the above seems like a narrow view of its better qualities. I tend to think of great architecture, religious thinkers and gentle movies about young couples in love when I think about India, not tech support :)

Zakariya, I do believe that Assad would give Saddam a helping hand, and then no he would not return the WMD, he would have his own use's for them. We haven't seen the last of Saddams WMD, they will come back to bite all of us eventually.

Good Morning Buffalo,

IF saddam still had the wmd, he would let saddam send them into syria, but he would not give them back, that is not doing saddam any favours, as Saddam knew it was the end so why did he not keep them IF he had them to use as a last resort.

This syria things just dopes not make sense, please buffalo, tell me an example of when Assad (either of them) has done saddam a favour.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Take care
zak

hi Skater,


dont tell me you think assad would just give them back

No, Especially that it will expose their involevent in hiding it, they'd rather destroy most of it than being caught with some, which... is a good thing, maybe that's what coward Saddam just did, the last minute on March 2003.

No, Especially that it will expose their involevent in hiding it, they'd rather destroy most of it than being caught with some, which... is a good thing, maybe that's what coward Saddam just did, the last minute on March 2003.

dear Skater

Like Eygpt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Israel, libya, and a few other states possibly Jordan, Syria too has a wmd program so how the hell would he have been caught IF he had saddams alledged WMD, and why would he do saddam a favour, please post the evidence showing assads pst favours to saddam.


I think Saddam if he had them he would have used them espically just before the end when US troops were outside baghdad, he knew at this point he was fucked so he could have just used them, whats the point in shipping them to Syria

Incidentally hans blix could not confirm wmd in iraq at the time, and he was not tgiven any extra time to follow investigations, i thought it was innocent till proven guilty.

Iraq had no WMD program in 2003, at best they may have had the odd remnants of the western sponsored WMD program of the 1980's

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
take care
zak

Dear Zak, What does having WMD by countries that do not threaten openly their neihgbours have to do with tyrants like Saddam or Ahmadinejad?

hEY SKATER

BUT their was no evidence of WMD in iraq according to hans blix in 2003.

Ahmendijad, the imbericle's words unforuntraely i dont speak farsi so i have to rely on western translations, have been interpretted as open threats, and they probably are, but this you have to understand they mean nothing as israel could take out tehran in one swift stoke, with the odd nuke or 2. ahmendijad is only coming out with these comments to defelct attnetion away from his failures on domestic issues. I beleive the west would take the same approach who-ever was the president of Iran.. unfortunately ahmendihjad, is just giving more ammunition to the war mongers. Incidentally please tell me one country which iran has attacked.

Also skater perhaps you could answer a couple of my questions before firing a question back at me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
take care
zak

Incidentally please tell me one country which iran has attacked.


~~~~~~~~~~~~
take care
zak


1) Iran-Iraq war!!! a milion people lost their lives. Starting in 1981, both Iran and Iraq attacked oil tankers and merchant ships, including those of neutral nations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War

2) Iran Held Liable In Khobar Attack on US - washingtonpost.com A federal judge ruled yesterday that Iran is responsible for the 1996 Khobar ... bomb blew up the tower-style dormitory for U.S. Air Force pilots and staff. ...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/22/AR2006122200455.html?nav=hcmodule

3) Attacked Argentina, the Jewish center in 1994, Argentina demands arrest of Iran ex-prez | World War 4 Report, The worst terrorist attack ever on Argentine soil, the bombing of the Jewish cultural center in Buenos Aires killed 85 people and injured more than 200
http://ww4report.com/node/2690

4) Recently attacked from Lebanon onto Israel via Hezbullah. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/769538.html Syria, Iran intelligence services aided Hezbollah during war

5) It massacres now Sunnis in Iraq via al Sadr. Iran, Hezbollah support al-Sadr -
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20040407-124311-9361r.htm, Al-Mahdi Army / Active Religious Seminary / al-Sadr is a proxy for Iranian interests http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/al-sadr.htm Hezbollah Said to Help Shiite Army in Iraq - New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/28/world/middleeast/28military.html?ex=1322370000&en=78d3cce73159f213&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

6) Attacking inside Israel via the group : 'Islamic Jihad' Record of terror attacks on Israel by Islamic Jihad USATODAY.com - Support from Iran (Palestinian) Islamic Jihad, which means Islamic holy war, was founded in 1981 with the goal of destroying the state of Israel.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-12-04-palestinian-islamicjihad_x.htm?csp=34 As well as Kassam barrage lately in Israel Captain's QuartersIran Pays For Kassam Attacks In Israel. The Iranian proxy terrorist group ... Islamic Jihad gets the money via its headquarters in Damascus while Fatah's ...
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/008793.php

7) Iran and Syria supplied Somali Islamists with arms, says UN. By Steve Bloomfield. Published: 16 November 2006. A UN-commissioned report has accused ...
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/article1987631.ece

1) Iran-Iraq war!!! a milion people lost their lives. Starting in 1981, both Iran and Iraq attacked oil tankers and merchant ships, including those of neutral nations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War

2) Iran Held Liable In Khobar Attack on US - washingtonpost.com A federal judge ruled yesterday that Iran is responsible for the 1996 Khobar ... bomb blew up the tower-style dormitory for U.S. Air Force pilots and staff. ...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/22/AR2006122200455.html?nav=hcmodule

3) Attacked Argentina, the Jewish center in 1994, http://www.hstoday.us/Global/The%20Americas/20061026_Argentina_Charges_Iran_Hizbollah_in_1994_ Jewish_Center_Bombing.cfm?storyid=4694 Argentina Charges Iran, Hizbollah in 1994 Jewish Center Bombing ...)

4) Recently attacked from Lebanon onto Israel via Hezbullah.

5) It massacres now Sunnis in Iraq via al Sadr.

6) Iran and Syria supplied Somali Islamists with arms, says UN. By Steve Bloomfield. Published: 16 November 2006. A UN-commissioned report has accused ...
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/article1987631.ece

Hi skater

thanks for this.

But the iran iraq war was started by iraq.

and the rest of your points do not show where iran has attacked a country

the hizbollah thing is another issue and does not show how iran attacked another country , and the somalia things is different too, as the US, ethopia and others have been supplying arms to the warlords in somalia etc..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
take care
zak

huzbullah is iran by any other name:

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/16889.html
Iranian Fighters Found Among Hezbollah Dead (in lebanon)

the hizbollah thing is another issue and does not show how iran attacked another country , and the somalia things is different too, as the US, ethopia and others have been supplying arms to the warlords in somalia etc..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
take care
zak

:sick:

:sick:

yes predator i agree the situation in Somalia is sick

yes predator i agree the situation in Somalia is sick
not as much as your post.

zak, i hope you don't glorify huzbullah fanatical terrorists (http://www.avot.org/article/20060905140100.html) headed by Iranian backed militant extremist Islamist Nasrallah (http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=11&x_article=1158) & their tactics (http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=439dbdcc-167c-423c-9d52-b14a90605440).

Just catching up on the Sleeper Cell "apprehensions" and misapprehensions. Lackawanna 6 (http://www.geocities.com/munichseptember1972/unclear_danger.htm) cannot be accurately described as having been a "sleeper cell". No other sleeper cells have been prosecuted in the US to my knowledge. Of course this is not to say there are none (how should we know)? This does mean that there is not evidence for an epidemic of terrorist activity. Prince_James had posted the following here (post #10):

"I am wary of Moslems here in America... there have been more than a few sleeper cells found, and I do not want their religion to corrupt American society, specifically as we also have to deal with an influx of illegal immigration and various other things."

If this sort of illegitimate fear continues to spread anywhere, we're in for a greater escalation of unnecessary culture wars through inappropriate reactions to misperceived terrorist threats.

If this sort of illegitimate fear continues to spread anywhere, we're in for a greater escalation of unnecessary culture wars through inappropriate reactions to misperceived terrorist threats.

Good!! If we, the American people, especially the white, anglo-saxon, Christians, keep a close watch over "those" people, then we'll be a lot better off in protecting this great nation from terrorist attacks. We can't ever, never, let our guard down!

Baron Max

Sorry, Baron, but we can't really ever put our guard up in this regard. To eliminate terrorism on the basis of whole religions or ethnicities, we would need first to cease to be an open society. A culture war with Muslims or any other major religion will only increase the occurrences of terrorist atrocities. We need much better focus than bigoted reactionism.

Sorry, Baron, but we can't really ever put our guard up in this regard.

So you suggest that we all just stand still and let them slit our throats and the throats of our children? Oh, yeah, good one, Hype, ....just like so many of your bullshit theories and propostions.

A culture war with Muslims or any other major religion will only increase the occurrences of terrorist atrocities.

Good! Then maybe some of the mamby-pamby, doo-gooder, liberal wimps of the nation will begin to understand and take up arms with us against them.

It's exactly like the mamby-pamby, doo-gooder, liberal wimps do with crime ...they're all aglow with warm fuzzy feelings for the criminals ....UNTIL something happens to them!!

Baron Max

Baron-
What exactly does it mean to be "vigilant"?
What can the average citizen do to fight sleeper cells if they aren't Muslim and have no ties with the Muslim community?

Hindu sleeper cells?

Hindu sleeper cells?scientolgists.

Arab "atheists."

Do you have an affinity for oxymorons?

not as much as your post.:p Zionists have no right calling anyone else 'sick.' You will be overwhelmed as a nation. You will.

Arab "atheists."There are a dozen Leftist and atheist Palestinian groups. Libya has several as well. Salman Rushdie is not an Islamist. YOU are a racist assuming Arabs are incapable of political thought outside religion. Because you are tethered to the fundamentalist doghouse does not mean everyone else is.

Arab "atheists."Do you hate Arab Christians too? Arab Buddhists? Your faith sucks as much as theirs. Get off the high horse. You share the gutter with the Taliban.

Ouch.

Ouch.In real life I'm a nice guy. Being a slowtyper is tough when battling religious zealots. I'm so much better at shouting. I don't hate you, just your faith and politics.
I'm going home finally! Take care.

not as much as your post.

Please elaborate Predator

huzbullah is iran by any other name:

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/16889.html
Iranian Fighters Found Among Hezbollah Dead (in lebanon)

Hey skater,

Hows it going?

Come on now, please do not let me accept this report as cannon, just cos Fox news and some israeli reporter say it is true.

Anyway IF it was true than according to the logic of our friend baron max then just cos a couple of Iranians were fighting with Hizbollah does not mean that Iran attacked israel.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
take care
zak

There are a dozen Leftist and atheist Palestinian groups. Libya has several as well. Salman Rushdie is not an Islamist. YOU are a racist assuming Arabs are incapable of political thought outside religion. Because you are tethered to the fundamentalist doghouse does not mean everyone else is.

:rolleyes: Yes, the vast amount of respect that Salman Rushdie has in his homeland - Iran - certainly convinces me of your argument.

Come on now, please do not let me accept this report as cannon, just cos Fox news and some israeli reporter say it is true.
not surprising. all israel reporters are liars i guess.

Anyway IF it was true than according to the logic of our friend baron max then just cos a couple of Iranians were fighting with Hizbollah does not mean that Iran attacked israel.

i have no idea to what exactly in baron max words you refer, but what were does soldiers were doing in lebanon in the first place?

Hi predator,

I hope all goes well witih you and thank you for your comments


not surprising. all israel reporters are liars i guess.



What makes you say that predator i dont think so at all, off the top of my head i can think of Uri Anvery, he is avery investigative reporter would not you say?


i have no idea to what exactly in baron max words you refer, but what were does soldiers were doing in lebanon in the first place?

who says they were and if they were so what!!!

Lots of nations have troops in other countries.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
take care
zak

What makes you say that predator i dont think so at all, off the top of my head i can think of Uri Anvery, he is avery investigative reporter would not you say?

of course, except for the ones who support your pov. :D

who says they were and if they were so what!!!
they are there for a reason , wouldnt you agree?

Lots of nations have troops in other countries.

like the us troops in iraq?

of course, except for the ones who support your pov. :D


they are there for a reason , wouldnt you agree?


like the us troops in iraq?

You still have not proved that they were there predator.

prove it and then we can discuss why they were their ok.

So do you like Uri Anvery then predator???

~~~~~~
Take care
zak

You still have not proved that they were there predator.

prove it and then we can discuss why they were their ok.


even if i would bring you their bodies you wouldnt believe.
and even if, how the hell can i prove it over the internet if you dont believe any link?

So do you like Uri Anvery then predator???

what is this sudden interest in my favorite journalist list?

even if i would bring you their bodies you wouldnt believe.
and even if, how the hell can i prove it over the internet if you dont believe any link?
?



not at all predator, just need a bit more than one link thats all. Surely a person of your undoubted callibre predator does not base an opinion on just one link!!


what is this sudden interest in my favorite journalist list?


is he your fav journalist then, perhaps you shoudl read some of his stuff then

not at all predator, just need a bit more than one link thats all. Surely a person of your undoubted callibre predator does not base an opinion on just one link!!

i dont recall saying i conclude things on one link. i have sources in the military since i served in the idf. that link is only the tip of the ice burg.


is he your fav journalist then, perhaps you shoudl read some of his stuff then
now you are just moking me.

Ok Ok Ok

lets say they were in Lebanon, the iranians are their to train hizbollah on the weapons systems they exported to hizbollah.

is Irans behaviour different too counties like the US, Eygpt, KSA, UK, Israel and so on and so forth... i think not so whats your point

~~~~~~~~~~~
take care
zak

Ok Ok Ok
what no hello?

lets say they were in Lebanon, the iranians are their to train hizbollah on the weapons systems they exported to hizbollah.
they werent there for just that reason.

is Irans behaviour different too counties like the US, Eygpt, KSA, UK, Israel and so on and so forth
if they support hezbollah supplied them with weapons, trained them and helped them against the idf and aided theyr firing on israel then iran did anything it could to fight israel by proxy of hezbullah and lebanon without having to be directly involve. it seems to me they managed to do it. no body but us and the US is blaming iran for that. very convenient wouldnt you agree zak?

what no hello?


they werent there for just that reason.


if they support hezbollah supplied them with weapons, trained them and helped them against the idf and aided theyr firing on israel then iran did anything it could to fight israel by proxy of hezbullah and lebanon without having to be directly involve. it seems to me they managed to do it. no body but us and the US is blaming iran for that. very convenient wouldnt you agree zak?

I'm curious. Is there a US military base in Israel?

I'm curious. Is there a US military base in Israel?

i think they build some bases in the past. some bases are british in origin including the airport in center israel (ben-gurion airport).
why do you ask sam? you saw any us troops fighting along side israeli soldiers lately? or ever?

i think they build some bases in the past. some bases are british in origin including the airport in center israel (ben-gurion airport).
why do you ask sam? you saw any us troops fighting along side israeli soldiers lately? or ever?

Aren't there American citizens who fight for Israel?
http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2004-05-03/755.asp

The 21-year-old Gross, who grew up in the seaside town of Marblehead, Mass., is taking a break from his studies at Williams College and has chosen to serve in the Israel Defense Force (IDF) under a program called Mahal2000. Avi Naor founded the program in 1998 as a way to recruit non-Israeli Jews worldwide. It's named in tribute to the Machal, a Hebrew word given to the 3,500 foreign men and women who came to Israel's aid during its War of Independence in 1948.

Aren't there American citizens who fight for Israel?
http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2004-05-03/755.asp

nice. its warm my heart to see people like this who love israel so much and are willing to give everything and risk even a us citizenship for israel.
how this is related to iran though?

nice. its warm my heart to see people like this who love israel so much and are willing to give everything and risk even a us citizenship for israel.
how this is related to iran though?

Well they are all Shiites right? So if Americans can help Israel and American Jews can fight for Israel, why is it wrong for Iranian Shiites to help Lebanese Shiites? Why doesn't it "warm your heart"?

Well they are all Shiites right? So if Americans can help Israel and American Jews can fight for Israel, why is it wrong for Iranian Shiites to help Lebanese Shiites? Why doesn't it "warm your heart"?

You don't know much about friendship, do ya', Sam? I know you know all about hatred, but do you have any concept of friendship? ...other than, perhaps, a vague idea that it's the opposite of hatred?

Baron Max

Well they are all Shiites right? So if Americans can help Israel and American Jews can fight for Israel, why is it wrong for Iranian Shiites to help Lebanese Shiites? Why doesn't it "warm your heart"?

your link was about a jewish guy who is willing to risk hes citizenship to fight for israel. how that is equivalent to iranian soldiers sent to lebanon by iran to help the hezbullah fire on israel is beyond me.

You don't know much about friendship, do ya', Sam? I know you know all about hatred, but do you have any concept of friendship? ...other than, perhaps, a vague idea that it's the opposite of hatred?

Baron Max

I know the American idea of friendship, Baron. Do as I say, not as I do, or else.:)

I know the American idea of friendship, Baron. Do as I say, not as I do, or else.:)

then why do you live in america?

your link was about a jewish guy who is willing to risk hes citizenship to fight for israel. how that is equivalent to iranian soldiers sent to lebanon by iran to help the hezbullah fire on israel is beyond me.

Doesn't the US government also help Israel with weapons to help bomb Palestinians and Lebanese?

Isn't the current situation in Gaza much much worse than anywhere in Israel?

Are there people in Israel who are forced to eat from garbage dumps due to Palestinians? And isn't the entry restriction into Gaza also enforced by US troops alongwith the IDF?

And as for the base:

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesG/entr.jpg

What is the purpose of this US military base (http://www.rense.com/general66/excl.htm) in Israel?

http://www.rense.com/general66/pic8.jpg

Doesn't the US government also help Israel with weapons to help bomb Palestinians and Lebanese?

do us troops go and fire on lebanon? dont tell me this are the same.

Isn't the current situation in Gaza much much worse than anywhere in Israel?
im not sure. maybe not.

Are there people in Israel who are forced to eat from garbage dumps due to Palestinians?
there are palestinians who eat from garbage dumps because of other palestnians. how this is related to iran?

And isn't the entry restriction into Gaza also enforced by US troops alongwith the IDF?

no

And as for the base:
all i see here is just an american flag and some bulldozers. the site administrator is counting on us to fill in the dots. as you did quite good sam.

this is the best link you could find after using google?

do us troops go and fire on lebanon? dont tell me this are the same.

Yes they do, they just wear IDF uniforms. :)


im not sure. maybe not.

You mean there are Israelis living like this?
http://www.wfp.org/english/?ModuleID=137&Key=2225
MIDEAST:
Still Some Food in the Garbage
Sanjay Suri

LONDON, Jun 2 (IPS) - Children rummage through garbage cans for discarded food for their one meal during the day. Families wait to buy discount-priced vegetables left unsold in the evening. These are not locally exaggerated accounts of the situation in Palestinian areas, but an official account by the World Food Programme.

Next month the World Food Programme (WFP), a United Nations agency, will have to feed 25 percent more people -- 600,000 in all -- in the Palestinian territories because they have no other way of finding food. But only next month; the organisation has no money left to feed people after that.

"We're going to have a pipeline break then," Kirstie Campbell from the WFP told IPS by phone from Jerusalem.

"There has been a cut in funding after withdrawal of tax payments from Israel," Campbell said. "Also, donors are not funding the Palestinian Authority."

Palestinians are evidently paying for exercising their democratic choice and voting a Hamas government into power. And it is the poorest among them who will pay the price.

"You have three categories of people in need," Campbell said. "You have the chronically poor, then you have people in institutions like the elderly, orphans and social rejects, and thirdly the new poor who have been affected by the present crisis.

It is the last of these categories that is far more likely to find help than the others "because programmes for them are being implemented by non-governmental organisations," she said. Funding to the first two categories is processed through the social affairs ministry of the Palestinian government, which is not likely to get this new funding.

And other factors are making life even worse for these poorest of the poor.

"Of about 2.2 million poultry in these areas, about 400,000 have been culled because of avian influenza," Campbell said. "And that is the cheapest source of protein."

People in Gaza are suffering also under fishing restrictions, said the WFP reporting officer. "Fishing has been allowed only between six and 10 nautical miles into the sea," she said. "But this is not the area where you can find the bigger fish. Boats are going out and trawling in the breeding area, and gathering a lot of small fish and waste."

The closure of the Karni terminal on the border between Gaza and Israel has added to the hardship, limiting the availability of goods and food, though there has been some easing of restrictions this week.

Under the weight of such pressures, survival itself is beginning to crack up.
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=33471



there are palestinians who eat from garbage dumps because of other palestnians. how this is related to iran?
I thought you said you were not sure of the conditions?
no

It isn't?
The number of trucks carrying export produce from the Gaza Strip has tripled in the past three months due to security and infrastructural improvements on the Palestinian side of the Karni crossing, a senior diplomatic official told The Jerusalem Post on Thursday.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the improvements were part of a plan to beef up security at the crossing at the initiative of Lt. Gen. Keith W. Dayton, Washington's security coordinator for the Palestinians.


all i see here is just an american flag and some bulldozers. the site administrator is counting on us to fill in the dots. as you did quite good sam.

this is the best link you could find after using google?


Let me try again.:p
Hmm it seems the US Engineer corps are building a military base, but maybe for Israelis?

http://www.nau.usace.army.mil/who/district.php

Europe District's largest endeavor is improving quality of life with the renovation and construction of barracks and Army family housing through U.S. Army, Europe's centrally managed programs.

The Barracks Modernization Program for Fiscal Year 2002 saw work in progress on 44 projects valued at $229 million. Another 65 projects, worth $380 million, were in design, about $25 million of which are being designed in house at the district. Another $112 million for 18 buildings is expected to be awarded this fiscal year. The buyout for USAREUR barracks to the one plus one standard is set for 2008, with construction complete by 2010.

Part of the memorandum required that Israel relocate certain Israeli Defense Forces from the West Bank to new facilities to include state-of-the-art training and vehicle/equipment storage bases in Israel. The IPO is managing construction of two infantry training bases, one in the Negev desert near Beersheva and the other north of Hadera, the massive 205-building Nachshonim Division Storage Base project located on 400 acres east of Tel Aviv, and two other critical facilities. Additionally, the IPO is managing the construction of $23 million in Foreign Military Sales (FMS) projects for the Israeli Ministry of Defense not related to Wye River.

Yes they do, they just wear IDF uniforms. :)

?


You mean there are Israelis living like this?
http://www.wfp.org/english/?ModuleID=137&Key=2225
yes.



I thought you said you were not sure of the conditions?
about what?



Let me try again.:p
Hmm it seems the US Engineer corps are building a military base, but maybe for Israelis?

http://www.nau.usace.army.mil/who/district.php
they builded israeli bases in the past. so, can you find us troops and bases operating in israel and aiding it against hezbullah and the war on terror?
were are the us bodies along side idf bodies? and why are you making excuses for a country that support an organization like hezbullah? can you do more then just google every time instead of addressing the questions? and they call me the propaganda machine:confused:

?
yes.

Where in Israel are there Israelis living like that?
Please give a link.


about what?

About the conditions in Gaza


they builded israeli bases in the past. so, can you find us troops and bases operating in israel and aiding it against hezbullah and the war on terror?
were are the us bodies along side idf bodies? and why are you making excuses for a country that support an organization like hezbullah? can you do more then just google every time instead of addressing the questions? and they call me the propaganda machine:confused:


There are American citizens who fight for Israel. America builds bases and supplies weapons. What more support do you need?

I like to back up my statements with evidence. Since we are talking about facts, not opinions as you said. I would therefore appreciate if you gave evidence for your assertions rather than simply giving an opinion.

As for bodies, how many Israeli soldiers and civilians have died in the last year in altercations with Palestinians and Lebanese? And how many Palestinians and Lebanese have died? Facts please.

You claimed my sources were not credible, so I would like you to give me your sources and tell me why they are more credible.

then why do you live in america?

I don't.

[QUOTE]Where in Israel are there Israelis living like that?
Please give a link.

im not sure there is one in english. and what concern is it to you? there is poverty in israel too you know.

About the conditions in Gaza

you will have too elaborate-i lost you there.

[QUOTE]I like to back up my statements with evidence. Since we are talking about facts, not opinions as you said. I would therefore appreciate if you gave evidence for your assertions rather than simply giving an opinion.
ok.

As for bodies, how many Israeli soldiers and civilians have died in the last year in altercations with Palestinians and Lebanese? And how many Palestinians and Lebanese have died? Facts please.
ha, the same tune. you killed more, you are <fill in>

I don't.

haaaaa. ok, so where do you live?

haaaaa. ok, so where do you live?

In India:)

im not sure there is one in english. and what concern is it to you? there is poverty in israel too you know.


I'm astonished. I had no idea things were so bad. Doesn't Israel make enough to feed its children?
http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/inequal/2003/1101israel.htm
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelpovertychildrenyomkippur4831210.html


you will have too elaborate-i lost you there.

You contradicted yourself. Read the previous posts. :)



ha, the same tune. you killed more, you are <fill in>

Doesn't every Israeli death count? Don't you care if its one or one hundred?

So why shouldn't it be the same for a non-Israeli?
Are Israeli lives worth more, in your opinion?

I'm astonished. I had no idea things were so bad. Doesn't Israel make enough to feed its children?
http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/inequal/2003/1101israel.htm
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelpovertychildrenyomkippur4831210.html

not all of them. is there a country in the world that doesnt have poverty sam?

You contradicted yourself. Read the previous posts. :)

elaborate how.


Doesn't every Israeli death count? Don't you care if its one or one hundred?

So why shouldn't it be the same for a non-Israeli?
Are Israeli lives worth more, in your opinion?
how did you made the conclusion i think israeli lives worth more? im against body count comparison of dead people. this sort of debating is ugly and tarnish the dead.

not all of them. is there a country in the world that doesnt have poverty sam?


No there isn't. But one in three children?
elaborate how.


Read it.:p

how did you made the conclusion i think israeli lives worth more? im against body count comparison of dead people. this sort of debating is ugly and tarnish the dead.


You mean killing one person is equivalent to killing a million?

Is that why Israel uses weapons that kill people indiscriminately, like cluster bombs? Because killing many is equal to killing one?

No there isn't. But one in three children?

one in three? we are getting there.

Read it.:p
i told you i lost you there-you dont want to explain yourself?ok.

You mean killing one person is equivalent to killing a million?
no. you interpreted it that way.

Is that why Israel uses weapons that kill people indiscriminately, like cluster bombs? Because killing many is equal to killing one?
many have died in both side. you are trying to claim that because more palestinians died israel is morally wrong?

as i explained you in the above post, this type of debating is something only those who have no regard to human life will argue. for werent for the idf things would be different. we had much more dead israeli by suicide bombers.

you are trying to claim that because more palestinians died israel is morally wrong?

as i explained you in the above post, this type of debating is something only those who have no regard to human life will argue. for werent for the idf things would be different. we had much more dead israeli by suicide bombers.

ah! Now I see it.

ah! Now I see it.

now you see that the idf is protecting the lives of israeli citizens at the hands of suicide bombers? im glad you have seen the light.

now you see that the idf is protecting the lives of israeli citizens at the hands of suicide bombers? im glad you have seen the light.

Yes. I see.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6215769.stm


Israeli security forces killed 660 Palestinians in 2006 - three times more than in 2005, according to an Israeli human rights group.

B'Tselem, which monitors human rights in the occupied territories, said the figure included 141 children.

At least 322 had taken no part in hostile acts, the group said.

In the same period, the number of deadly Palestinian attacks on Israelis has fallen - 23 Israelis were killed in 2006 compared with 50 last year.

Yes. I see.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6215769.stm

im glad you take your information from unreliable resources like betselem. how they know who is Innocent, who participated and who didnt is beyond me.

im glad you take your information from unreliable resources like betselem. how they know who is Innocent, who participated and who didnt is beyond me.

Easy enough to ask, don't you think?

They have some interesting testimonies, photos and videos on their website.
http://www.btselem.org/English/Photo_Archive/index.asp

http://www.btselem.org/shared/images/Photo_Archive_Medium/dsp_050517_Dura_Nayef%20Hashlamoun6931.jpg
May 17, 2005 - An Israeli soldier shoots towards protesters in the village of Dura, near Hebron, while using a Palestinian youth, Fadi Ahmed Sharha, age 16, as a human shield.
Photo credit: Nayef Hashlamoun, © Reuters

What ulterior motives could they have, do you think?

is it me or the photos is from reuters? the same news group who faked the smoke on photos regarding idf bombing?

is it me or the photos is from reuters? the same news group who faked the smoke on photos regarding idf bombing?

So that is not an IDF soldier?

So that is not an IDF soldier?

maybe he is, maybe he isnt, but i cant make anything out of this picture. when idf soldier capture a terrorist they cover hes eyes. you may disagree with that practice, but to say he is using him as human shield and to give this picture as evidence is an insult to my intelligence.

maybe he is, maybe he isnt, but i cant make anything out of this picture. when idf soldier capture a terrorist they cover hes eyes. you may disagree with that practice, but to say he is using him as human shield and to give this picture as evidence is an insult to my intelligence.

So even Israeli human rights activists are plotting against Israel then?

Even Gideon levy, the award winner editorial board representative of Ha'aretz?

Twighlight zone: Suffer the little children
GIDEON LEVY
Ha'aretz, 4 December 2004

In the present intifada, 323 Palestinian children under the age of 14 have been killed by IDF fire. Three recent examples from Nablus...

http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/1466

And Adi Dagan of the Machsomwatch?
Can you talk about your experience monitoring checkpoints?

I just want to say that I stopped going to checkpoints because I just couldn't take it anymore. I did it for two years and it became unbearable. It was mainly a feeling of being crushed, as though someone were stepping on you. It was a sense of a lack of control over life, of someone taking your life away from you, just taking it away, a very bad feeling of helplessness and identifying with the people who need to cross the checkpoint then. Young soldiers stand there and they decide who passes and who doesn't. It feels very bad. After two years of seeing that I think that rather than improving, the situation is only getting worse. I couldn't bear it any longer, now I'm dedicating my experience in the field to the issue of the media because I hope maybe that will be successful.
Can you tell me about a certain event that affected you personally?

Certainly. At the end of March 2003 I arrived at Kalandiya checkpoint with another woman from Machsom Watch and a child was shot there. The soldiers shot a child, killing him; we were there when it happened.16 That was very, very, very traumatic and it was very difficult for me to return there afterwards. I kept imagining it happening all over again. Every soldier seemed potentially capable of killing a child. The tension was horrible. There was also the feeling that we hadn't managed to prevent it. That was difficult to deal with.
http://www.justvision.org/interview/adi_dagan.php

So even Israeli human rights activists are plotting against Israel then?

an ad hominom argument. just because they are israelis doesnt make them objective. those extremists are considered delusional at best. i know, i have friends like this. this kind of people lied to the israeli public during oslo and kamp david. a lot of israeli died because of this.

So even Israeli human rights activists are plotting against Israel then?

Even Gideon levy, the award winner editorial board representative of Ha'aretz?


http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/1466

he haaretz editor admitted lying in regard to the gaza evacuation of jews just to prompt hes opinions. regarded in arab world maybe, the haaretz is a very left wing paper.

he haaretz editor admitted lying in regard to the gaza evacuation of jews just to prompt hes opinions. regarded in arab world maybe, the haaretz is a very left wing paper.

Can you give me a link to when he admitted lying?

And some evidence that he is considered delusional?

And are all left-wingers anti-Israel? Why?

Can you give me a link to when he admitted lying?

And some evidence that he is considered delusional?

And are all left-wingers anti-Israel? Why?

after writing i was searching for you a link in english(first in hebrew of course i dont remeber the all story).

i didnt said he in particular considered delusional but left wingers are.

not all of them, but the haaretz is consider such mainly. the extremist left wingers.

not all of them, but the haaretz is consider such mainly. the extremist left wingers.

So does Ha'aretz fabricate stories?

So does Ha'aretz fabricate stories?

many times. most papers fabricate stories i guess, or dont tell the whole story, or not an accurate one-but the haaretz is taking it too far.

many times. most papers fabricate stories i guess, or dont tell the whole story, or not an accurate one-but the haaretz is taking it too far.

Interesting. Does that mean that all links to information may be fabricated?

Interesting. Does that mean that all links to information may be fabricated?

no of course not. why do you always have to twist everything and play stupid?

:rolleyes: Yes, the vast amount of respect that Salman Rushdie has in his homeland - Iran - certainly convinces me of your argument.
The government there is not representative of the people, just like in the USA. Rushdie is admired by the Iranian people, just not the ruling class.

Can you give me a link to when he admitted lying?

And some evidence that he is considered delusional?

And are all left-wingers anti-Israel? Why?

here are some links on the issue:

http://www.omedia.org/Show_Article.asp?DynamicContentID=1766&MenuID=610&ThreadID=1014011

http://www.omedia.org/Show_Article.asp?DynamicContentID=1802&MenuID=681&ThreadID=1014003

no of course not. why do you always have to twist everything and play stupid?

I just reworded your statement:

Where you said most papers, I said may be

most papers fabricate stories i guess, or dont tell the whole story, or not an accurate one-but the haaretz is taking it too far.

I am surprised at your opinion of the Haaretz, considering that it's English edition is produced as an adjunct to the International Herald Tribune (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Herald_Tribune), which is a very recognised publication worldwide.
Plus:

The position of the newspaper in Israel's religious spectrum is decidedly secular. Although space is often given to issues of social justice (exemplified by Ruth Sinai's frequent columns on this topic), the paper's editorial line on economic issues is primarily classical-liberal in the spirit of The Economist. It supports privatization, free-trade, reduction in welfare, lower taxes and strict fiscal practices.

So I fail to see why you would try to indicate that it presents a distorted view of Israel. It is a daily newspaper published in hebrew and English and is considered decidedly high brow compared to other papers. So why would you try to malign it? Can you tell me?

here are some links on the issue:

http://www.omedia.org/Show_Article.asp?DynamicContentID=1766&MenuID=610&ThreadID=1014011

http://www.omedia.org/Show_Article.asp?DynamicContentID=1802&MenuID=681&ThreadID=1014003

What is omedia.org?

I have never even heard of it. How do I know they are credible?

I just reworded your statement:

Where you said most papers, I said may be

thats the same thing-you tried to twist what i said and then played the dumb.

I am surprised at your opinion of the Haaretz, considering that it's English edition is produced as an adjunct to the International Herald Tribune (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Herald_Tribune), which is a very recognised publication worldwide.
the haaretz is all but a reliable source of information. i read it to know what my enemies think of me. no surprise you love it so much.


So I fail to see why you would try to indicate that it presents a distorted view of Israel.
could be any number of reasons. for someone who live in israel, and actually been written about one way or the other in some newspaper-the haaretz how to put it-full of shit.

It is a daily newspaper published in hebrew and English and is considered decidedly high brow compared to other papers.
maybe you consider it high compare to other papers, but the haaretz is full of anti israeli stories that its sickening. in other aspects other then political its a good newspaper, but when it comes to politic the haaretz is one sided(in the exception of some reporters like uri shavit).
So why would you try to malign it? Can you tell me?
hey sam im just telling you what i know about the haaretz. you know il live in israel. i probably know of this more then you.

What is omedia.org?

I have never even heard of it. How do I know they are credible?

http://www.omedia.org/Show_Doc.asp?MenuID=269

Well it was nice talking to you.
Are all these too "anti-Israel" "fabricators"?

http://www.rhr.israel.net/separationwalltour/index.shtml

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/campaigns/boycott_settlements_products/

ICAHD is a non-violent, direct-action group originally established to oppose and resist Israeli demolition of Palestinian homes in the Occupied Territories.
http://www.icahd.org/eng/

No to the Apartheid Walls
http://www.taayush.org/new/ongoing.html

The Israeli military prevented nine members of the Abu Ishkhaidem family, who are residents of Hebron, from accessing their land to harvest their olives. Their land is located five kilometers to the west of the city, near the Tailem settlement; the Israeli soldiers claimed that the land is a closed area. The residents were taken to the police station in Kiryat Arba’, along with their agriculture tractors, where the police informed them that they have no right either to be on the land or to work it. The family said that this is part of Israel’s policy, in order to confiscate the land for expansion of the settlement later.
http://www.alternativenews.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=681&Itemid=104


Crisis in Gaza
http://www.nimn.org/Resources/gaza_landing_page/000135.php?section=Crisis%20in%20Gaza


We, Jews of Conscience, demand that the U.S. government:

1. Require Israel to stop its brutal siege on Gaza and on Lebanon and call for an unconditional cease fire.
2. Require Israel to stop the expansion of the Israeli Wall of Separation, dismantle the completed sections, and completely withdraw from Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem.
3. Support the United Nations resolutions demanding that Israel uphold international law and support the sanctions against Israel necessary to enforce these resolutions.
4. End military and economic aid to Israel.
5. Support reparations for the Palestinian and Lebanese people for the death and destruction they have suffered and for aid towards the rebuilding of their countries.
http://www.jewsforajustpeace.com/

http://www.omedia.org/Show_Doc.asp?MenuID=269

I dislike anonymous media.:o

What is the status of Israeli Arabs in Israel? The Muslim ones?

Yes, the vast amount of respect that Salman Rushdie has in his homeland - Iran - certainly convinces me of your argument.The government there is not reprentative of the people, just like in the USA. Rushdie is admired by the Iranian people, just not the ruling class.

Salman Rushdie is Iranian?:confused:

Salman Rushdie was born in Bombay, India, to a middle-class Muslim family. ...

What is the status of Israeli Arabs in Israel? The Muslim ones?

They're probably treated with caution and suspicion, just as they should be! And just as many of them are treated that way in the US and Europe.

Baron Max

They're probably treated with caution and suspicion, just as they should be! And just as many of them are treated that way in the US and Europe.

Baron Max

That sounds suspiciously like an opinion.:)

That sounds suspiciously like an opinion.

No, that was just repeating what I've heard ...and probably what you wanted to hear ...so you could go to the 'Net somewhere and post another of your long, involved bullshit, biased pieces to show that the US and Israel are bad people! :D

Now there's your chance, Sam .....find an article somewhere that states categorically that the US and Israel are nasty fuckin' people.

Baron Max

That sounds suspiciously like an opinion.:)

Besides, even if it is an opinion, it'll change in the next few minutes anyway, so what the fuck?

I ain't like y'all .....make a judgement, then hold on to it forever, and even locate info so as to support your too-early opinions.

Baron Max

Make a judgement, then hold on to it forever, and even locate info so as to support your too-early opinions.

That could probably be considered stupid in some situations.

No, that was just repeating what I've heard ...and probably what you wanted to hear ...so you could go to the 'Net somewhere and post another of your long, involved bullshit, biased pieces to show that the US and Israel are bad people! :D

Now there's your chance, Sam .....find an article somewhere that states categorically that the US and Israel are nasty fuckin' people.

Baron Max

Are they Baron? Are people really bad? Or just stuck in grooves they are too comfortable to move out of? Do we really put all that much thought into what maintaining our status quo entails? By what devious means the wheels of our society keep moving? Aren't we mostly just simply oblivious to anything but ourselves and what goes on in our limited little comfortable circles to a more or less different degree?

Perhaps I am more than a little harsh, but my only aim here is provide a window into a point of view that may be different from what you are accustomed to seeing.

Besides, even if it is an opinion, it'll change in the next few minutes anyway, so what the fuck?

I ain't like y'all .....make a judgement, then hold on to it forever, and even locate info so as to support your too-early opinions.

Baron Max

Perhaps its nothing more than an overdeveloped tendency to root for the underdog.

I do so hate it when people gang up (literally or metaphorically) on those who are unable to defend themselves.:)

first Europe...than America

http://www.studentski-servis.com/fotografije/bedarije/nyc2006.jpg

America is much more conservative than Europe.
Muslims would never gain such a foothold.

Perhaps I am more than a little harsh, ....

You're more than harsh, Sam, you're full of hatred and anger! I've seen few posts of yours that didn't denigrate the US and Israel, but I've never, ever seen a post where you've denigrated any other nation ...esp. Muslim nations or those damned backward hellholes of the world.

No, Sam, harsh is what I am ......you're so far above me or anyone else that it's obvious that you hate deeper and more fervently than most anyone I've ever known.

Baron Max

first Europe...than America


I know exactly how you feel.

http://www.andycarvin.com/archives/photos/160_6037.JPG

Bombay's most famous monument, this is the starting point for most tourists who want to explore the city. It was built as a triumphal arch to commemorate the visit of King George V and Queen Mary, complete with four turrets and intricate latticework carved into the yellow basalt stone. Ironically, when the Raj ended in 1947, this colonial symbol also became a sort of epitaph: the last of the British ships that set sail for England left from the Gateway.

America is much more conservative than Europe.
Muslims would never gain such a foothold.

looking at the figures...
some states got as much as 20% muslim population! (calculating that into possible TNT carried by each...)

http://www.islam101.com/history/population2_usa.html

America is much more conservative than Europe.
Muslims would never gain such a foothold.

Yeah, but we're losing that fast if you've taken the time to notice! The fuckin' liberals are comin' out of cracks in the walls and floors faster than we can stomp on 'em!

Thank god I'm old and will die before I see it.

Baron Max

I know exactly how you feel.

"Bombay's most famous monument, this is the starting point for most tourists who want to explore the city. It was built as a triumphal arch to commemorate the visit of King George V and Queen Mary, complete with four turrets and intricate latticework carved into the yellow basalt stone. Ironically, when the Raj ended in 1947, this colonial symbol also became a sort of epitaph: the last of the British ships that set sail for England left from the Gateway."


And how much did that cost to build, Sam? And during that time, do you have any figures for how much India spent on the health, education and welfare of it's citizens?

Baron Max

You're more than harsh, Sam, you're full of hatred and anger! I've seen few posts of yours that didn't denigrate the US and Israel, but I've never, ever seen a post where you've denigrated any other nation ...esp. Muslim nations or those damned backward hellholes of the world.

No, Sam, harsh is what I am ......you're so far above me or anyone else that it's obvious that you hate deeper and more fervently than most anyone I've ever known.

Baron Max

I'm sorry you think so. I do have a tendency to be overcritical, but I hate nobody. I did get a score of 95 on the drama queen thingy though, if that helps.

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1251598&postcount=31

I'm sorry you think so. I do have a tendency to be overcritical, but I hate nobody. I did get a score of 95 on the drama queen thingy though, if that helps.

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1251598&postcount=31

http://img.epinions.com/images/opti/5d/21/Confessions_of_a_Teenage_Drama_Queen_In_Theaters-resized200.jpg

And how much did that cost to build, Sam? And during that time, do you have any figures for how much India spent on the health, education and welfare of it's citizens?

Baron Max

Tell me Baron, if draqons prediction were to come true, is it the cost of health, education or welfare that would concern you the most?

Tell me Baron, if draqons prediction were to come true, ...?

What's a "dragons prediction"???? Huh? Aren't dragons like a Chinese thingie or something? Waht the hell are you talkin' about?

Baron Max

http://img.epinions.com/images/opti/5d/21/Confessions_of_a_Teenage_Drama_Queen_In_Theaters-resized200.jpg

God Lindsey Lohan is so hot... ;)

Baron -

As a liberal, I would not say that I support terrorism, and as humans, we cannot suppress the personal freedom of religion which our Constitution states (it is the First Amendment, and obviously one of the first and most important things our Founding Fathers thought of) is integral to American society.

However, also, as people of a developed, Western, nation, we do have the responsibility to be, as you said earlier, aware of our surroundings. This does not include hating on Muslims, which you do so often and seem to find amusing. You have to respect and accept their lifestyle only until it conflicts with your own.

What's a "dragons prediction"???? Huh? Aren't dragons like a Chinese thingie or something? Waht the hell are you talkin' about?

Baron Max

who is Baron Max anyway? is he some England Baron maxed out? Waht the ***** are you talkin' about?

This does not include hating on Muslims, which you do so often and seem to find amusing. You have to respect and accept their lifestyle only until it conflicts with your own.

I don't hate Muslims ...I just don't want them anywhere around me or in my nation! Let them go back and live in the desert with the camels!

As to the conflicts in lifestyle and culture? I'd say we're already well beyond that.

Baron Max

who is Baron Max anyway? is he some England Baron maxed out? Waht the ***** are you talkin' about?

There were no capital letters!!! I thought she/he was talkin' about some prediction made by some Chinese dragon!!

So ....which of your predictions was she/he talkin' about?

Baron Max

There were no capital letters!!! I thought she/he was talkin' about some prediction made by some Chinese dragon!!

So ....which of your predictions was she/he talkin' about?

Baron Max

riiiiight. :cool: innocent lil thing.

Baron -

We are well beyond that.
Muslims have done nothing to Western culture and have done nothing to reduce it.

When you say that you do not want anything to do with them, it's the same as a hick saying that he won't sit next to a black person. You obviously hate Muslims whether or not you will type it out.

Baron -

Muslims have done nothing to Western culture and have done nothing to reduce it.


I lived a mile from a city were that nothing has been done.

http://www.terrorize.dk/911/images/911.wtc.6.crater.west.air.jpg

I don't hate Muslims ...I just don't want them anywhere around me or in my nation! Let them go back and live in the desert with the camels!

As to the conflicts in lifestyle and culture? I'd say we're already well beyond that.

Baron Max

Do you live in Vidor, Baron? :p


Peggy Fruge told me she'd welcome blacks to her neighborhood. Then she said this:

"I don't mind being friends with them, talking and stuff like that, but as far as mingling and eating with them, all that kind of stuff, that's where I draw the line."
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/08/oppenheim.sundown.town/index.html

Baron - Muslims have done nothing to Western culture and have done nothing to reduce it.

I disagree!

When you say that you do not want anything to do with them, it's the same as a hick saying that he won't sit next to a black person. You obviously hate Muslims whether or not you will type it out.

I don't hate Muslims ...I just don't want them around me. But the more of 'em that push their way towards me, the more I might turn that into hate, I don't know.

I also don't want blacks around me because wherever there's a lot of blacks, there's a lot of crime and murder and drugs! But again, I don't hate blacks, I just don't want them around close to me.

I don't want pigs and chickens around me all the time, either, but I don't hate pigs and chickens. See? See? There does not have to be hate, as you so foolishly say/imply.

Baron Max

Muslims brought fear. fear causes sickness. sickness leads to death.

dragon -

I realize Muslims destroyed the World Trade Center.
Even though I didn't specify it, I was talking about Muslims living in America, not simply those who came to this country for the sole purpose of causing destruction.

..., I was talking about Muslims living in America, not simply those who came to this country for the sole purpose of causing destruction.

Check out Detroit, Michigan ...you might find some interesting things about Muslims. Ditto for Los Angeles. I'm not so good with the computer or I'd post such things ...sorry.

Baron Max

Check out Detroit, Michigan ...you might find some interesting things about Muslims. Ditto for Los Angeles. I'm not so good with the computer or I'd post such things ...sorry.

Baron Max

I live in MI. Muslims here seem very peacifull. However they do seem to lock the neighborhood...like huge stretches of homes were silence seems to be eternal.

I live in MI. Muslims here seem very peacifull. However they do seem to lock the neighborhood...like huge stretches of homes were silence seems to be eternal.

Ditto.
Muslims in Michigan are peaceful, which would explain my stance on Muslims "attacking" Western culture.

Thank you dragon.

But you seem to dislike them too...
First Europe, then America?

Muslims brought fear. fear causes sickness. sickness leads to death.

Yep!

And what people can't seem to grasp is that the Chinese have been in this nation almost since it started, and we've had virtually no problems with the Chinese and, in fact, the Chinese have integrated well into our commuties with almost no backlash at all.

The Vietnamese have come into this nation in droves during/after the war, and they've pretty much integrated and prospered, causing little or no problems.

Even the Mexicans have integrated pretty well into the society, with only a few nasty areas like Los Angeles that stand out because of the drug gangs and wars. But that's more drugs and prostituiton than cultural.

But one Muslim guy gets elected to congress, and the shit hits the fan over him using a Koran to make his pledge to congress. Sad, fuckin' sad!

Baron Max

I live in MI. Muslims here seem very peacifull. However they do seem to lock the neighborhood...like huge stretches of homes were silence seems to be eternal.

Interesting! Why am I getting reports of Muslim problems and police that won't even go into those neighborhoods???? And that's on the national news!!??

What the fuck?

Baron Max

Yep!

And what people can't seem to grasp is that the Chinese have been in this nation almost since it started, and we've had virtually no problems with the Chinese and, in fact, the Chinese have integrated well into our commuties with almost no backlash at all.

quoting..."Chinese suffered severe exploitation. They