Ethical question for our atheists

A very simple inquiry:

• Many people take issue with my presentation of atheism. These are usually atheists.
• Strangely, I've noticed that I am still more severe in my criticisms and generalizations toward Christianity.
• I noticed that the atheists don't particularly care.
• Furthermore, I've noticed that some of our atheists will exploit those abusive passages.

What's the deal here?

I just find it highly amusing how people generally want "fair" to be to their own best interests. A little bit of consistency--daresay "integrity" would help.

thanx,
Tiassa

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Tiassa

Yo,

• Many people take issue with my presentation of atheism. These are usually atheists.

I think your posts are just too long on average

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. Seriously,
I like it.


• Strangely, I've noticed that I am still more severe in my criticisms and generalizations toward Christianity.

Probably just human behavior kicking in. If 5 people play a
video game against each other and have a secret weapon (that
rechages every 10 minutes) of making 1 player loose 10,000
points, who do you think they're gonna go after? The winner
of course... and Christianity is kind of the winner of modern
religions (most points -aka followers-).


• I noticed that the atheists don't particularly care.

Sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't.

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Apathy is wonderful.


• Furthermore, I've noticed that some of our atheists will exploit those abusive passages.

Exploitation... Altruism... whatever floats the ol' boat I suppose.

 

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Re: Tiassa

I was going to write a big essay about apathy. But I couldn't be bothered...

 

Tiassa:
It's because nobody here reads your posts past the first few paragraphs.

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Actually, that's not quite true. The American Masochist Society probably does.

 

Rowwwll!!

In keeping with the spirit of the AMA I'd ask Tiassa how he presents Atheism.

 

Yes, it's wonderful

James R

I would provide examples, but the post would be too long

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Actually, I'm just really lazy right now. I don't wish to spend hours slogging through old topics. Go figure. It's not like it ever worked before.

Voodoo

What can I say? A perspective that includes philosophy, history, and personal experience is apparently something that should not be tolerated.

I mean, after all, the Universe would collapse if someone decided to look at something for what it is instead of what they wanted it to be, right?

thanx,
Tiassa

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*Xev tries to apply a steel-tipped martinet to her back while typing*

Please continue, Tiassa, what else do you think of athiesm?

 

Don't bother, Xev

If you haven't figured out what I have to say about atheism from the posts you don't read, why the hell should I bother repeating myself now?

I'd have thought you smart enough to figure that out.

Oh, silly me. I presumed you intelligent. Forgive me for such an inappropriate assumption. I shall not make that mistake again.

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,
Tiassa

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• Many people take issue with my presentation of atheism. These are usually atheists.

Duh. Of course only Atheists care. Nobody else cares about how Atheists are. It's so obvious... Oh, I know, you're trying to manipulate those of us that are more stupid into saying something for you.

• Strangely, I've noticed that I am still more severe in my criticisms and generalizations toward Christianity.

Yes. Also more recently in your criticisms towards Theists. Pick a belief. Stand by it. Or at least stay near it for a while...

• I noticed that the atheists don't particularly care.

HELLO!!! Atheists don't care because these people are Christians. Likewise, Christians don't give a fucking rat's dick-up-an-ass if you are a meanie poisin to Atheists.

• Furthermore, I've noticed that some of our atheists will exploit those abusive passages.

Yes. Of course. Because you do abuse these people. Even if we don't care, they help to prove a point later. Because you're abusive. Aren't you? I thought you were. This isn't a monologue, is it? OK, I didn't think so. Just making sure. What's that? Oh, sorry, you're right, it IS!

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I just find it highly amusing how people generally want "fair" to be to their own best interests. A little bit of consistency--daresay "integrity" would help.

Hew min neigh chur, monkey.

 

Tiassa:

It's called sarcasm, Tiassa. Look, I didn't even mention a riding crop, since you whined the last time I made that allusion. See how nice I am, and you just use me and exploit me with no regard to my feelings!

*Xev cries*

No, no just saying "sorry" is not enough. You have to beg.

 

It's a-burnin' time!

Aw, Xev, deal with it.

You're a tough girl, right?

Will you pleeeeeeaaaase forgive me for assuming you were intelligent? Really, I'll never make that mistake again, honest. I promise.

On to ... well, different things.

GB-GIL

I didn't think Atheists "were" anything. Geez, any time I try to identify common points of atheists, I'm told I'm making too big a deal out of too small an idea.

Nope. Actually, I'm making a straight run after integrity. People get pissed from time to time at my use of the word. Fine, let's see about it, so to speak.

Why don't you write that belief down for me, GIL?

Are you suggesting fixed morals and ethics? It worked so well for Christianity that it ought to be a Universal idea, right?

And I find that a testament against the benefits that either position alleges to offer. With or without God, there's still no reason for integrity, is there?

Is that gibberish just a deflection?

I just don't want to hear any more atheists complaining about my observations of atheism unless they're prepared to be fair. I'm not black, but I don't like people badmouthing blacks. I'm not Christian, but I'd rather people badmouth the choices Christians make when necessary than simply badmouth them for being Christian. What's this? I'm being consistent? My, my ... you'd better light the fagots and tie me to the stake, GIL.

So is what we have come to call rape, fellow monkey.

Aww ... what's wrong? Is integrity too tough a concept to wrap your head around?

I'm sorry, GIL, but that response of yours seemed way below standard. I know from other topics that you can be more intelligent than that. I wonder why you won't be here and now. And I also wonder if I should care, or just presume that you will always be this proud of a hypocrite.

I won't deny you your right to be a proud hypocrite, just please don't expect me to respect you if that's the choice you make.

thanx,
Tiassa

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Eh? I think you expect too much of atheism, it is merely a single adjective that doesn't even describe oneself or all but one of our views. Atheism is sometimes the direct result of history, philosophy and personal experience. Are you referring to their particular dislike of certain philosophies, certain historical perspectives? And their guardedness in accepting subjective experiences as a source of knowledge?

The atheist is not opposed to this, nor immune to such distorted vision. The typical atheist would recognise that the world doesn't conform to our beliefs, arrogant SOB that it is. They'd probably say that looking at things the way they want to be is merely an inefficient way of looking at ourselves.

Perhaps atheists take issue with your presentation of atheism you both have different ideas of what atheism is. Most atheists(mass generalisation here) don't see atheism as a worldview or a collection of values. It is merely a term they use to describe their position to a certain aspect of the world(or from their perspective, a certain aspect of other people). I expect that you have seen the high correlation of atheist characteristics* and assume they constituted a part of atheism. Perhaps, for all intensive purposes they do.

________________

* Analretento-materialism, for eg.

 

Athiesm

I arrived at Athiesm as kind of a by-product. I simply removed
the concept of 'belief' (aka: acceptance without proof) from my
life. This type of mentality has pros and cons, but considering
the cons only come from other human beings I can definately
live with that

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.

-Yo

 

*Avatar spits out apple juice he was drinking

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about atheism- I really don't care- I just live. If someone asks me to explain my beliefs I usually bug him off.
Time is very presious to waste it on christians or anybody else you don't prefer
(of course if it doesn't include their destruction

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j/k)

 

Analretento literalism?

Voodoo Child

Actually, I think atheists expect too little of atheism. It's a strange lack of sympathy that puzzles me. It would seem that most atheists I know both here at Sciforums and out in the real world have no real clue what they're asking of a religious person when they assert there is no God.

It seems like a small enough concept, I admit. But to a religious person facing the world without God, it's huge. Because along with that tiny assertion, out goes the moral foundation, the replacing of which is a huge, time-consuming, stressful process. (As a social comment, I wish to point out American labor and family habits; who really has time to upend their most basic paradigm?)

For some, God and His texts help them understand how to deal with this ultimately strange and unknown person they married. For others, God and His texts help people understand why they're carrying a rifle and killing people they've never met before.

Just a couple of examples; these are ethical structures which, while they have no part of an atheist's regard for the tiny idea of atheism, are foreseeable in its results. The inability of so many atheists to recognize this stifles any progress toward the defeat of religious ideas. The inability of so many atheists to recognize the scale of their miniscule assertion is a good reason why so many of them ramble incoherently when discussing the issues that atheism touches but is not. I mean, an atheist once told me I was arrogant and making myself too important when I asserted that people exist for the benefit of the species and not for their own benefit. Come on ... that is funny. But it wouldn't have happened if the atheist had considered the scale of what his tiny ideas addressed.

This I know well, both in the individual and cultural aspects.

I'm referring in part to the childish hypocrisy of people's conduct. Why get mad at me for something they accept elsewise? Analogously, that's like Americans getting mad at someone for speaking his or her mind. It's pure horsepucky hypocrisy.

You've been around long enough to remember the big theist/atheist blowup we had earlier this year that has never really settled down. All of those people like Xev and GIL and others telling me I don't have an accurate picture of atheism despite the fact that I have held atheist beliefs and conducted myself accordingly in the past. People don't like my perspective? Why? Because it's the most roundly informed?

And, furthermore, if atheists are upset at my characterizations because they find them unfair, why not point out the general unfairness of them? I'm very critical of Christians, probably nastier toward them than toward atheists, and very forgiving of Buddhism, Sufism, and even Judaism. Why aren't they pointing out how unfair I'm being to Christians? What, we get all over each other for being unfair to other groups. What is it about the animosity toward Christianity that they're willing to accept?

At least I'm consistent.

Seems almost uniform.

I thought "typical" described a majority state:

I like the "arrogant SOB that it is line". That the world is arrogant for disagreeing is definitely typical, but I don't see the rest of it as typical.

And most gun owners think of their guns as "tools", not weapons.

The problem is that what atheism asserts affects worldviews.

It's kind of like saying all you did was cut a piece of rubber. It's true, but what if that rubber is a brake line on a car and someone dies as a result of your actions? Sure, you just "cut rubber", but what it affected was more than just the rubber.

Certes, atheism is a tiny assertion. Nobody doubts its smallness. But what it aspires to affect is huge, larger than most atheists are capable of comprehending.

And if they are not smart enough to understand what their ideas affect, I'm supposed to ... what, respect them even more?

It's a word without a definition, technically, since a whole bunch of people with different views on God want to use the same label for themselves.

• God doesn't exist and never has; I'm an atheist.
• I am without any opinion of God; I am an atheist.
• I don't know if God exists or not: I am an atheist.
• I think God is a psychological phenomenon; I'm an atheist.

Oh, wait ... I can't recall any atheists standing for that last point. Whoops. Sorry. But there is:

• Religion is a mental illness; I'm an atheist

as well.

Well, having been an atheist and decided the idea too small to be functional, I keep wondering at this pseudo-religious assertion going on about what gives me my impressions of atheism and atheists.

I think atheists must be aware of their common identity. Think of another small phrase, miniscule idea, tiny suggestion:

• Harm none.

It's a tiny rule.

It has huge implications.

Most witches know this rule; the waerloga I've known were in constant denial of its scale.

There is no God: a tiny sentence with huge results.

In my experience it has been shown time and again that atheists would be better served to simply worry about other things. To stake so much on such a tiny idea while denying its massive implications makes atheism seem kind of cultish.

• Analretento-materialism: I've also noticed a strong tendency among atheists to bear pseudo-literalist regard for religious texts.

thanx,
Tiassa

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Precious precious, time is so precious.

Avatar

Last night I arrived at the condo of the woman who is the mother of my child. I note her station because I want it noted how close to me this idea is.

Tig has a friend, K, who has some problems. K lives across the street, and is known to have had a long-running substance problem, and has suffered from domestic-violence and other abuses. Every once in a while, K calls Tig when K is in a bind. Consistently, Tig refuses certain assistance. Tig will give her cigarettes or food or whatever, but won't ever give her a place to stay when violence is afoot because K, being a drug addict "might steal something".

Yet Tig continues to refer to K as a "friend".

Last night I arrived at Tig's condo to find the medical examiner's truck parked in the building lot. Police units were parked up and down the street, and the center of activity seemed to be K's building and, in fact, K's apartment.

The medical examiner doesn't come out unless someone is dead.

We walked up the street: K's blinds were wide open. They're never open.

Tig saw a relative of K's in the apartment, but did not wish to inquire.

And here's the important part: Before we even know what has happened, Tig says, "I'm glad I didn't let her stay at my place."

I, of course, am flabbergasted. Here's what I'm looking at:

• You think K is dead, but you are glad you didn't help her when it could have made a difference? And what were you worried about? A couple of CD's?

We still don't know where K is, but it scared the hell out of me how quickly Tig started justifying her past actions. Her friends needed her, and she wasn't there. Now she thinks one of them is dead, and I sat there and listened to her tell me she was glad she didn't help.

Time and resources are very precious, and should not, apparently, be wasted on people you don't prefer. Despite the amount of drugs Tig and I have used together in our history, she didn't "prefer" K because K used drugs.

This is the mother of my child; there are some days I wish I could pray.

Time is best spent on the things you don't prefer. Kind of like going to work, eh?

thanx much,
Tiassa

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It is only huge if you see it through a theist's eyes. Looked at from an atheistic position it isn't. People assume that because atheism is the opposite of theism that it is symmetrical in scope and in properties. It ain't. Just because theists have a big ass collection of values in common, it doesn't follow that atheists do. Atheism doesn't specify where you get the new values and worldview from, so you are going to get a collection of very different values when you group these people together. If you make any generalisations about them, some will go "Hey! WTF?".

Only if you are theistic. And if you are still theistic then logically it doesn't affect your worldview at all.

Because they are unfair to christians as well. Besides, <i>real</i> unfairness only happens when oneself is the subject.

What I meant was that the universe is generally indifferent to our beliefs. If we complain that there isn't a God then the universe isn't going to say "Oh, you poor baby. Here, let me fix that so you don't have to think disquieting thoughts."

ed. to remove stray sentence fragment

 

Tiassa:

I award you a 6.5 for groveling. Next time, put a bit more effort into it.

Bingo. Nobody in this world will help you besides yourself, unless they have something to gain from it or they are very close to you.

Tiassa's "K" didn't take care of herself. She was punished for this error.
Xev takes care of herself. She doesn't get too close to or depend on anyone, and only helps others when she's willing to accept the consequences.

Thus, Xev never deals with more pain than she can bear.

This is life. There's really no place for weakness in this world, and the person who respects my weakness does me a disservice.

The world owes us one thing:

Give me what I can bear. Give me more than I can bear, and never show me any mercy.

So, as for my athiesm, I really don't give a rat's ass. If someone is worth explaining it to, I will. If I just want to see them squeal, I'll do that.

 

Then why are we so pissed about 9/11?

Who gives a flying fuck then? So they blew up our towers. Who fucking cares?

Life being what it is, can you promise yourself that you will always be in control of that?

And we wonder why people don't like the West?

I won't argue with your position, Xev. It makes perfect sense to me.

But considering that such stupid fucking selfishness is what got Americans into a War on Terrorism in the first place, please understand that I have an ethical dilemma here: whether to hold you in the esteem of a human being, or to hold you in the esteem you wish to be held. My ethics on the one hand point clearly toward the latter as a matter of respect, but to the other I really don't like thinking so little of anyone.

It's times like this that I'm comforted by the fact that in any substantial way, it's not a big deal. I always wonder what's so scary about happiness that people will do everything they can to chase it away. So at least there's that: you have value to me as a curiosity.

Kind of like a bug in amber: doomed to hope for decay.

--Tiassa

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