We are born as an imperfect being,
we are made by GOD (assuming creationism is true), He made us to be imperfect, therefore, why am I doomed in eternal hell for my wrong doings that are beyond my full control.

We are born as an imperfect being,
we are made by GOD (assuming creationism is true), He made us to be imperfect, therefore, why am I doomed in eternal hell for my wrong doings that are beyond my full control.

God made a way for you to avoid eternal punishment:

This is the most important question of your life.

The question is: Are you saved?

It is not a question of how good you are,
nor if you are a church member, but are you saved?

Are you sure you will go to Heaven when you die?

The reason some people don't know for sure if they
are going to Heaven when they die is because they
just don't know.

The good news is that you can know for sure that
you are going to Heaven.

The Holy Bible describes Heaven as a beautiful
place with no death, sorrow, sickness or pain.

God tells us in the Holy Bible how simple it is
to be saved so that we can live forever with Him
in Heaven.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Over 2000 years ago God came from Heaven to earth
in the person of Jesus Christ to shed His blood
and die on a cross to pay our sin debt in full.

Jesus Christ was born in Israel supernaturally to
a virgin Jewish woman named Mary and lived a sinless
life for thirty-three years.

At the age of thirty-three Jesus was scourged and
had a crown of thorns pressed onto His head then
Jesus was crucified.

Three days after Jesus died on a cross and was
placed in a grave Jesus rose from the dead as Jesus
said would happen before Jesus died.

If someone tells you that they are going to die and
then three days later come back to life and it
actually happens then this person must be the
real deal.

Jesus Christ is the only person that ever lived a
perfect sinless life.

This is why Jesus is able to cover our sins(misdeeds)
with His own blood because Jesus is sinless.

The Holy Bible says,
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
If you would like God to forgive you of your sins just ask, Jesus Christ to be
your Lord and Saviour, and then start trying to not sin. If you do sin, ask God to forgive you and continue trying to not sin. {Try to not do anything that the New Testament calls a sin.}
The Bible says this:
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Start reading the New Testament of the Bible to find out what God wants you to believe and do. [The King James version is the most accurate version of the bible, but it does have middle English or Old English in it.]
You can use a big dictionary if you have trouble with the old English.

It doesn't matter how old you are or how many bad
things that you have done in your life including
lying and stealing all the way up to murder.

Just pray the prayer below with your mouth and mean
it from your heart and God will hear you and save you.

Dear Jesus Christ, I want to be saved so that I can
have a home in Heaven with You when I die. I agree
with You that I am a sinner. I believe that You love
me and want to save me. I believe that You bled and
died on the cross to pay the penalty for my sins and
that You rose from the dead. Please forgive my sins
and come into my heart and be my Lord and Saviour.
Thanks Lord Jesus Christ for forgiving me and saving
me through Your merciful grace. Amen.

Welcome to the family of God if you just allowed God
to save you.

Now you are a real Christian and you can know for
sure that you will live in Heaven forever when this
life comes to an end.

As a child of God we are to avoid sin(wrongdoing),
but if you do sin the Holy Bible says,
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Start trying to not sin. If you do sin, ask God to forgive you and continue trying to not sin. {Try to not do anything that the New Testament calls a sin.}
The Bible says this:
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Those of you that have not yet decided to place your
trust in the Lord Jesus Christ may never get another
chance to do so because you do not know when you
will die.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
This means that if you die without trusting in Jesus
Christ as your Lord and Saviour you will die in your
sins and be forever separated from the love of God in
a place called Hell.

The Holy Bible descibes Hell as a place of eternal
torment, suffering, pain and agony for all those who
have rejected Jesus Christ.

The good news is that you can avoid Hell by allowing
Jesus Christ to save you today. Only then will you
have true peace in your life knowing that no matter
what happens you are on your way to Heaven.

fuck jesus, it would be unjust to banish someone to eternal torment for the imperfections given by god. therefore, jesus and god would be unjust.

God made a way for you to avoid eternal punishment:

This is the most important question of your life.

The question is: Are you saved?

It is not a question of how good you are,
nor if you are a church member, but are you saved?

Are you sure you will go to Heaven when you die?

The reason some people don't know for sure if they
are going to Heaven when they die is because they
just don't know.

The good news is that you can know for sure that
you are going to Heaven.


"Knowing for sure" is arrogance...a sin. No one knows for sure, thats part of the faith.

There is insufficient evidence pointing to "bible is absolutely true".

Fundamentally, "believe and saved" is unjust, given the fact that we have more than 1 choice of religion.

Christianity originated from judaism, basically they worship the same God, but why do they diverge? A good reason is the God is False God.

fuck jesus, it would be unjust to banish someone to eternal torment for the imperfections given by god. therefore, jesus and god would be unjust.

Luke 12:
9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

[If you ever see a ufo stay away from it. That might help you to live longer.]

We are born as an imperfect being,
we are made by GOD (assuming creationism is true), He made us to be imperfect, therefore, why am I doomed in eternal hell for my wrong doings that are beyond my full control.

Saint, We are made imperfect: prone to sinning and evil. However, we have also been made capable of accepting God's grace and forgiveness and living a Christlike life. We will never deserve heaven (romans 3:23), but we can still be saved. God won't hold us to our sins but to whether or not we have repented for them and accepted God's forgiveness.

Be thankful!

what if those "imperfections" make us reject god? I reject christianity because I cannot reason my way to that conclusion. Since god supposedly gave my reason, how could I be punished for that?

God has not made it impossible.

I can only guess, but I would say that you are not putting enough effort in on your part.

God has not made it impossible.

I can only guess, but I would say that you are not putting enough effort in on your part.

You can't prove God exist and you don't know God. How do you know he made it impossible? How do you know he is not putting enough effort in your part? You little book said, don't judge or you will be judged in the same measure.

Saint, We are made imperfect: prone to sinning and evil. However, we have also been made capable of accepting God's grace and forgiveness and living a Christlike life. We will never deserve heaven (romans 3:23), but we can still be saved. God won't hold us to our sins but to whether or not we have repented for them and accepted God's forgiveness.


in this case we are just the pawns on the chessboard played by God and Satan.

you're pawns of red (God) ro black (Satan) are not up to you to decide, you are passively decided by God's and Sata's wills.

this is the blatantly immoral part of X'tianity

The sad part about all this is that the christian god never really said anyhting about eternal punishment, only bad translators did.


[That said, I still think the bible is mostly bullocks, It's just that the original was a lot LESS STUPID than the current ones.]

what if those "imperfections" make us reject god? I reject christianity because I cannot reason my way to that conclusion. Since god supposedly gave my reason, how could I be punished for that?

1 Corinthians 1:
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

I accept Christianity because I did an experiment to test for the existence of God and got definite evidence from my experiment.

Some scientific reasons for the existence of God:

The laws of probability will tell you that this universe with all of its ordered complexity, could not have come into being by chance. To have that much order and complexity, the universe had to be designed by an intelligent creator. There is enough coded information in one human chromosome to
fill a small library of books. This had to be designed by an
intelligent creator.
The probability against that happening by chance is very
very high. It's like giving a chimpanzee a typewriter and letting him hit the keys at
random. The probability against his being able to type a small library full of books by hitting keys at random is so high that for all
practical purposes you can consider it impossible.
Because of this, there are some scientists and mathematicians who are forced to
believe in the existence of God by logic alone.
In order for a single cell to live, all of the parts of the cell must be assembled before life starts. This involves 60,000 proteins that are assembled in roughly 100 different combinations. The probability that these complex groupings of proteins could have happened just by chance is extremely small. It is about 1 chance in 10 to the 4,478,296 power. The probability of a living cell being assembled just by chance is so small, that you may as well consider it to be impossible. This means that the probability that the living cell is created by an intelligent creator, that designed it, is extremely large. The probability that God created the living cell is 10 to the 4,478,296 power to 1.
Example: 10 to the 6th power is one million, 10 to the 7th power is 10 million, 10 to the 8th power is 100 million, 10 to the 9th power is a billion; each time the power goes up by one, the number goes up by ten times as much. 10 to the 4,478,296 power, is a tremendously large number.
[The probability of this was calculated by Fred Hoyle, famous astronomer and mathematician.]
"Biochemical systems are exceedingly complex, so much so that the chance
of their being formed through random shufflings of simple organic
molecules is exceedingly minute, to a point indeed where it is
insensibly different from zero"
- Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, p.3

"No matter how large the environment one considers, lfe cannot have had
a random beginning. Troops of monkeys thundering away at random on
typewriters could not produce the works of Shakespeare, for the
practical reason that the whole observable universe is not large enough
to contain the necessary monkey hordes, the necessary typewriters, and
certainly the waste paper baskets required for the deposition of wrong
attempts. The same is true for living material"
Ibid., p.148

"The trouble is that there are about two thousand enzymes, and the
chance of obtaining them all in a random trial is one one part in
(10^20)^2000 = 10^40000, an outrageously small probability that could
not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup. If
one is not prejudiced either by social beliefs or by a scientific
training into the conviction that life originated on the Earth [by
chance or natural processes], this simple calculation wipes the idea
entirely out of court"
Ibid., p.24

"Any theory with a probability of being correct that is larger than one
part in 10^40000 must be judged superior to random shuffling. The
theory that life was assembled by an intelligence has, we believe, a
probability vastly higher than one part in 10^40000 of being the correct
explaination of the many curious facts discussed in previous chapters.
Indeed, such a theory is so obvious that one wonders why it is not
widely accepted as being self-evident. The reasons are psychological
rather than scientific."
Ibid., p.130

"All point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn
out to reduce the genetic information and not to increase it."
- Lee Spetner, "Not by Chance"(Brooklyn, New York: The Judaica
Press,Inc.) p.138

"It appears that the neo-darwinism hypothesis is insufficient to explain
some of the observations that were not available at the time the
paradigm took shape. ...One might ask why the neo-darwinian paradigm
does not weaken or disappear if it is at odds with critical factual
information. The reasons are not necessarily scientific ones but rather
may be rooted in human nature"
- Christian Schwabe "On the Validity of Molecular Evolution", Trends in
Biochemical Sciences, July 1986, p.282

The concept of 'Eternal Hell' is a blasphemy against the good ole God.

in this case we are just the pawns on the chessboard played by God and Satan.

you're pawns of red (God) ro black (Satan) are not up to you to decide, you are passively decided by God's and Sata's wills.

this is the blatantly immoral part of X'tianity

Satan is actually God's buddy. If God is all powerful and really hate Satan, God can get rid of Satan at any time. Instead, God let Satan to hang around. That means God is using Satan is accomplish his agenda and is responsible for everything Satan did do. Also notice that Satan has actually gotten a lot bigger since he was defeated. Before he was an angel, now he is omnipresent and almost all powerful and take on the characteristic of God.

We are born as an imperfect being,
we are made by GOD (assuming creationism is true), He made us to be imperfect, therefore, why am I doomed in eternal hell for my wrong doings that are beyond my full control.
1.God did not create man imperfect, he created man in his own image – perfect and without sin.
2.man fell into sin by rebelling against god i.e. choosing to be apart from God (sin in latin means without)
3.the punishment (being apart from God) is mans own doing, it will be eternal only until we change our minds and decide to be with God again.
4.It is within your full control to be with God or not. We make choices every day one way or the other.
5.Although, we have been in this mess for so long now that it is not as simple as one day saying I choose to be with God and then it will happen the next hour. We have a huge amount of sin (bad karma) to pay for before we can get back to god (become enlightened).

Perfect man wouldn't fall, duh. So god is either A, imperfect, B, Sadistic, C, stupid, or D, Nonexistent.

Contemporary christianity is so dumb :\

[the original form may have been on to somehting, but still grossly wrong in large part]

“1 Corinthians 1:
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.”

reason is foolishness? Why would god make us (some of us) unable to make a decision without using reason, and then expect us to make one of the most important decisions we could make without reason?

“The laws of probability will tell you that this universe with all of its ordered complexity, could not have come into being by chance.”

I guess you have never heard of the weak anthropic principal, it takes care of that problem.

“One might ask why the neo-darwinian paradigm
does not weaken or disappear if it is at odds with critical factual
information”

you are wrong, it is not at odds.

ghost7584: God made a way for you to avoid eternal punishment:

This is the most important question of your life.

The question is: Are you saved?

It is not a question of how good you are,
nor if you are a church member, but are you saved?

Are you sure you will go to Heaven when you die?

The reason some people don't know for sure if they
are going to Heaven when they die is because they
just don't know.

The good news is that you can know for sure that
you are going to Heaven.

The Holy Bible describes Heaven as a beautiful
place with no death, sorrow, sickness or pain.

God tells us in the Holy Bible how simple it is
to be saved so that we can live forever with Him
in Heaven.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Over 2000 years ago God came from Heaven to earth
in the person of Jesus Christ to shed His blood
and die on a cross to pay our sin debt in full.

Jesus Christ was born in Israel supernaturally to
a virgin Jewish woman named Mary and lived a sinless
life for thirty-three years.

At the age of thirty-three Jesus was scourged and
had a crown of thorns pressed onto His head then
Jesus was crucified.

Three days after Jesus died on a cross and was
placed in a grave Jesus rose from the dead as Jesus
said would happen before Jesus died.

If someone tells you that they are going to die and
then three days later come back to life and it
actually happens then this person must be the
real deal.

Jesus Christ is the only person that ever lived a
perfect sinless life.

This is why Jesus is able to cover our sins(misdeeds)
with His own blood because Jesus is sinless.

The Holy Bible says,
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
If you would like God to forgive you of your sins just ask, Jesus Christ to be
your Lord and Saviour, and then start trying to not sin. If you do sin, ask God to forgive you and continue trying to not sin. {Try to not do anything that the New Testament calls a sin.}
The Bible says this:
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Start reading the New Testament of the Bible to find out what God wants you to believe and do. [The King James version is the most accurate version of the bible, but it does have middle English or Old English in it.]
You can use a big dictionary if you have trouble with the old English.

It doesn't matter how old you are or how many bad
things that you have done in your life including
lying and stealing all the way up to murder.

Just pray the prayer below with your mouth and mean
it from your heart and God will hear you and save you.

Dear Jesus Christ, I want to be saved so that I can
have a home in Heaven with You when I die. I agree
with You that I am a sinner. I believe that You love
me and want to save me. I believe that You bled and
died on the cross to pay the penalty for my sins and
that You rose from the dead. Please forgive my sins
and come into my heart and be my Lord and Saviour.
Thanks Lord Jesus Christ for forgiving me and saving
me through Your merciful grace. Amen.

Welcome to the family of God if you just allowed God
to save you.

Now you are a real Christian and you can know for
sure that you will live in Heaven forever when this
life comes to an end.

As a child of God we are to avoid sin(wrongdoing),
but if you do sin the Holy Bible says,
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Start trying to not sin. If you do sin, ask God to forgive you and continue trying to not sin. {Try to not do anything that the New Testament calls a sin.}
The Bible says this:
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Those of you that have not yet decided to place your
trust in the Lord Jesus Christ may never get another
chance to do so because you do not know when you
will die.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
This means that if you die without trusting in Jesus
Christ as your Lord and Saviour you will die in your
sins and be forever separated from the love of God in
a place called Hell.

The Holy Bible descibes Hell as a place of eternal
torment, suffering, pain and agony for all those who
have rejected Jesus Christ.

The good news is that you can avoid Hell by allowing
Jesus Christ to save you today. Only then will you
have true peace in your life knowing that no matter
what happens you are on your way to Heaven.
*************
M*W: You are "preaching" which is against forum rules.

An "ETERNAL" punishment doesn't exist. Eternal means a time which feels very long (as an "eternity"). It's a saying. The number 40 means eternity in the Bible. Also, a "thousand" years doesn't have to mean >1000< years.

But why do people have to suffer like this? So that we would learn from past mistakes so that we wouldn't do mistakes in the future. When we do something wrong, we suffer and this leads us closer to perfection. Evil is as necessary as good. Without evil, no one would know what good is.

1.God did not create man imperfect, he created man in his own image – perfect and without sin.

A "perfect" man means this man cannot get any better. If there is room for improvement, this man is not perfect. Adam and Eve were without the "knowledge of good and evil". How can they be perfect? If a perfect man lacks the ability to make perfect decision, then this man is not perfect.


2.man fell into sin by rebelling against god i.e. choosing to be apart from God (sin in latin means without)

Man did NOT rebel against God. Since Adam and Eve are without the knowledge of good and evil, how do they know if rebeling is good or bad? Eve was a in blank state of gullibility fell for the stratagem of Satan, the slickest used car salesman in the universe, with full knowledge and permission from God, how is that a rebellion?


3.the punishment (being apart from God) is mans own doing, it will be eternal only until we change our minds and decide to be with God again.

Revelation is a two way street. There is absolutely no reason for us to change our mind without the Damascus road experience.


4.It is within your full control to be with God or not. We make choices every day one way or the other.

How do you determine which God? Since God's existence cannot be proven? How do you determine which God is real and which God is not?


5.Although, we have been in this mess for so long now that it is not as simple as one day saying I choose to be with God and then it will happen the next hour. We have a huge amount of sin (bad karma) to pay for before we can get back to god (become enlightened).

Why would I want be with a God who creates vocanos and tsunami to kill innocent people with?

For most people who go into that state of mind called "hell," there is an end to it after they repent. There is not infinite punishment for finite sin. "Endless punishment" is "God's punishment," because God's name is Endless. Through the Atonement of Christ, all who repent and obey the commandments may be saved. Only the devil and his angels are damned to hell forever, along with those who join him in mortality. For everyone else, there is hope.

Repentance and obedience to the commandments are the keys to forgiveness. Endless punishment will have an end for those who repent.

And if we repent and obey God's commandments in *this* life, we won't have to go through hell at all. Jesus suffered for our sins so we don't have to suffer, if we will repent and obey Him.

Original Sin! Don't you understand! That is what makes religion go round-without being told that we are inherently sinful and dastardly, imperfect, evil creatures, we would have a better longing to be perfect, a better ability to do so, and we wouldn't need the religion.

Original Sin is built around the fact that you must make something man needs to survive sinful. IF you do that, everyone is sinful-until they realize that a code that contradicts the reality of, well, reality cannot be right. If a code tells us it is sinful to have sex-but we must do it in order for man to survive-then it is the code that is wrong, not the man. Christian original sin is built on similar premises-Man needs his pride and assurance in what he does-so they call it sinful. Man needs to help himself in order to survive-so they claim it is "right" to help others.

Ohh well. There's no getting around it. You are either A)Christian and accept this fact, and thus run up to be saved. Or B)your realize that it is the wrong code and realize that then the whole basis upon which it is founded-God and Jesus-is wrong, you live perfectly by your own standards, while they believe you will burn in hell for it. This cannot be changed. You can argue original sin as long as you want, but the people who believe it won't change, and the people who know it is wrong won't change. IF you desire to argue it, argue it with someone that is reasonable(although Christian) and can be persuaded, or someone that isn't sure.

The doctrine of "Original Sin" (that man is punished for Adam's transgression) is false. Man is punished for his own sins, not for Adam's transgression.

Some scientific reasons for the existence of God:

The laws of probability will tell you that this universe with all of its ordered complexity, could not have come into being by chance.
maybe it always existed ;)

To have that much order and complexity, the universe had to be designed by an intelligent creator.
and WHO designed created that Designer?

There is enough coded information in one human chromosome to
fill a small library of books. This had to be designed by an
intelligent creator.
or maybe its just nature.
btw did this inteligent morron also made
CANCER,AIDS,TORNADOES,VOLCANIC ERUPTIONS,TSUNAMI EARTHQUAKES and ALL those DEADLY to humans DISEASES ?

The probability against that happening by chance is very
very high. It's like giving a chimpanzee a typewriter and letting him hit the keys at
random.
totaly idiotic comparison,but hey, cretinists were never known for logic!


The probability against his being able to type a small library full of books by hitting keys at random is so high that for all
practical purposes you can consider it impossible.
and yet here is the universe and all,so it aint imposible at all is it??
..
the rest of your post is a typical cretinists appologetics nonsense not realy worth replying

Satan is actually God's buddy. If God is all powerful and really hate Satan, God can get rid of Satan at any time. Instead, God let Satan to hang around. That means God is using Satan is accomplish his agenda and is responsible for everything Satan did do. Also notice that Satan has actually gotten a lot bigger since he was defeated. Before he was an angel, now he is omnipresent and almost all powerful and take on the characteristic of God.

God gave the angels free will and a large number of them rebelled against Him. To prevent anymore rebellion among angels in heaven, it is men that are chosen and proven faithful that are going to be allowed in heaven to be angels. So men must be tested on the Earth to see which of them is faithful and willing to obey God. God is allowing Satan to do the testing to try men and see who is worthy to be an angel and who is not worthy.
God deals in justice. God used Satan to test Job, and when Job proved to be true and faithful, God gave him twice as much as he lost in Satan's test.
Also, Satan is allowed to do much of his evil against men because those men are sinners and they deserve punishment. So God will allow Satan who is totally evil to punish them for their sins. God is handling everything justly. But the test will go on until Jesus comes back, and some more testing a thousand years later at the end of the millenial reign of Christ.
God is not asking you to do anything that He was not willing to do Himself. God became a man, in the form of Jesus the Messiah, and He lived without sin. When God expects you to not sin, He is asking you to try to do something that He did Himself. God suffered physical death, in the form of Jesus the Messiah. If God is asking you to suffer physical death, He is not asking you to do what He was not willing to do. God was willing to die, as an atonement for sin, so that others may be forgiven and go to heaven.
God is handling the testing of men justly.

[As things are now, it looks to me like you are failing your test. You get an F on this test, and believe me, you won't like the results of that forever.]

Matthew 13;
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


explanation of the parable:

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

We are born as an imperfect being, we are made by GOD (assuming creationism is true), He made us to be imperfect, therefore, why am I doomed in eternal hell for my wrong doings that are beyond my full control.You're talking about a god that demands a blood sacrifice before he'll forgive you for breaking his rules.

Eternal torture fits in nicely with this ethic.

~Raithere

If there is a creator, I am sure that it would be so vast and alien to us that it wouldn't be able to understand things like pain or fear. It would be incapable of showing kindness while appearing quite sadistic at times.

M*W: Paraphrased -- "God gave the angels [stars] free will [they are uncontrollable by humankind] and a large number of them rebelled [falling stars] against Him [the Sun] [shooting stars/meteor showers]. To prevent anymore rebellion among angels [shooting stars/meteor showers] in heaven [the night sky, darkness], it is men that are chosen and proven faithful that are going to be allowed in heaven [somewhere up in the sky] to be angels [stars]. So men must be tested [daily life] on the Earth to see which of them is faithful and willing to obey God [the Sun]. God [the Sun] is allowing Satan [Lucifer or "light bringer"] to do the testing [daily life] to try men and see who is worthy to be an angel [star] and who is not worthy [anyone who lives in the darkness of night won't be a star in the sky]."

"God [the Sun] deals in justice [the Sun is not biased. The Sun radiates the whole world fairly and equally]. God [the Sun] used Satan [Lucifer, the light bringer] to test Job [giving him a life with obstacles like we all have being mere mortals], and when Job proved to be true and faithful, God [the Sun] gave him twice as much as he lost in Satan's [Lucifer, the light bringer's] test [of daily life]."

"Also, Satan [Lucifer, the light bringer] is allowed to do much of his evil [darkness of night when the Sun is down] against men because those men are sinners [anyone who likes or lives by the darkness of night], and they deserve punishment [to early humans, the darkness was punishment to them and their crops]. So God [the Sun] will allow Satan [Lucifer, the light-bringer, who was a major star, planet, moon or constellation] who is totally evil [lives in darkness of night] to punish them for their sins [of being awake at night]. God [the Sun] is handling everything justly [the sun rises and sets each day without fail]. But the test [daily living] will go on until Jesus [the Sun of the Sun] comes back, [tomorrow morning] and some more testing a thousand years later [daily living for 1000 more years] at the end of the millenial reign of Christ [the Age of Pisces, the fish, as Jesus was supposed to be a fisher of men -- Pisces]."

"God [the Sun] is not asking you [the Sun cannot speak, but this is who Abraham and Moses talked to] to do anything that He was not willing to do Himself [the Sun cannot do as humans, and humans cannot do the things the Sun does]. God [the Sun] became a man [only in primative thought], in the form of Jesus [the Sun of God] the Messiah [the Sun is the Savior of the World, without the Sun we would all die], and He lived without sin [in the darkness of night when crops cannot be planted]. When God [the Sun] expects you to not sin [traipse around at night], He [the Sun] is asking you [again, no proof that the Sun can talk] to try to do something that He did Himself [work in the daytime]. God [the Sun] suffered physical death [the Sun set in the evening and 'died' for the day], in the form of Jesus the Messiah [the Son of the Sun of God, the Savior of the world]. If God [the Sun] is asking you to suffer physical death [as in set in the evening when everyone else is asleep], He [the Sun] is not asking you [again, no proof that the Sun can talk; the Sun doesn't ask mankind to die each night and be resurrected in the morning] to do what He [the Sun] was not willing to do [plant crops]. God [the Sun] was willing to die [sun set in the evening], as an atonement for sin [humankind was being punished by the setting of the Sun], so that others may be forgiven and go to heaven [with the stars, planets, moons and constellations]."

"God [the Sun] is handling the testing [daily life] of men justly [as in a regular cyclic zodiacal movement]."

"As things are now, it looks to me [not God, and not the Sun] you [not God, and not the Sun] are failing [have a less than average] your test [daily life]. You get an F on this test [daily life], and believe me [not God, and not the Sun], you won't like the results of that forever.]"

Matthew 13;
27 So the servants [position of the planets] of the householder [houses in the zodiac] came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field [zodiac]? from whence then hath it tares? [weeds or poor crops]
28 He said unto them, An enemy [darkness of night] hath done this. The servants [positions of the planets] said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? [autumnal equinox, a time for harvesting]
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares [weeds], ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest [autumnal equinox]: and in the time of harvest [autumnal equinox] I will say to the reapers [the stars], Gather ye together first the tares [weeds, poor crops], and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn [house of the zodiac].
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ghost7584: explanation of the parable:

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil [Lucifer, the light bringer of the night]; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares [weeds, bad crops] are gathered and burned in the fire [Sun=Hell]; so shall it be in the end of this world [the end of the world is in the skies].
41 The Son of man [Sun] shall send forth his angels [stars], and they shall gather out of his kingdom [zodiac in the sky] all things that offend [as in darkness], and them which do iniquity [carousing around at night];
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire [the blazing hot sun of the summer equinox]: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth [by damn, it's gonna be hot up there].
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun [the Sun of God] in the kingdom of their Father [God the Sun]. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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M*W: As I've said before, the Bible contains myths about ancient astrological patterns. There is no God, only the Sun.

Clockwood: If there is a creator, I am sure that it would be so vast and alien to us that it wouldn't be able to understand things like pain or fear. It would be incapable of showing kindness while appearing quite sadistic at times.
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M*W: The only creator the Earth has is the Sun.

Originally posted by Saint
"why am I doomed in eternal hell for my wrong doings that are beyond my full control."

Don't worry, you want be judged for what you did not have full control of. I garentee that. :D
But are you sure that all your wrong doings aren't by you control??? :p

Originally posted by Saint
"Christianity originated from judaism, basically they worship the same God, but why do they diverge? A good reason is the God is False God."

Hey, if we assume the bible story to be true, you can't blaim the christians if the jews at some point decide: The "Messiah" we were promissed before doesn't suit us, lets just claim he is false and get rid of him.

Nor can you say that God is false because people do not abide to his laws..... for example if most people commit adultry or drink wine it doesn't mean that God allowed it, assuming he exists!! :D

M*W: The only creator the Earth has is the Sun.

but people don't want to know what "created" the earth, they want to know what created the existence of everything. religions usually refer to consciousness when they talk about "light", or something similar at least. "i am the consciousness of the world".

you know... maybe you shouldn't be so sure about everything you read. what do you mean by "sun of god"? if sun is the god, then it cannot have a god. the concept "sun of god" doesn't make sense. there's much symbolism in the bible, which we no longer understand. we use symbolism today also, and in the future, we will no longer understand it, unless we try to decipher it. astrology originated from egypt... i think it's truth.

M*W: "The only creator the Earth has is the Sun."
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Yorda: but people don't want to know what "created" the earth, they want to know what created the existence of everything.
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M*W: The Sun created everything. Were there no Sun to warm the Earth, melt the icecaps, warm the climate of the oceans so sea creatures could walk on land, ergo humans to help them grow vegetation for their sustenance... blah, blah, blah... The Sun created everything.
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Yorda: religions usually refer to consciousness when they talk about "light", or something similar at least. "i am the consciousness of the world".
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M*W: Referring to "consciousness" came much later than when ancient humans roamed the Earth. They feared and awed the Sun which had the power of life and death. They feared and awed the stars in the skies and created oral legends that became myths when the first recording of oral traditions evolved. Today, we may perceive that "light" means "consciousness," but to our ancient human ancestors, the Sun meant life or death. When the Sun had risen, it created all life, and that was good. When the Sun set, the light died, and that was not good. The light of the Sun meant life, and the darkness of the Moon meant death.
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Yorda: you know... maybe you shouldn't be so sure about everything you read.
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M*W: Yorda, Yorda, Yorda! I am not so gullible to believe "everything I read!" Actually, far from that. When I find an idea that seems right to me, I research it further until I am convinced without a doubt that the idea is probable. I could write so much more about the things I don't believe in than the things I do. However, in the Religion Forum, my focus is on what I disbelieve about religion.
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Yorda: what do you mean by "sun of god"? if sun is the god, then it cannot have a god. the concept "sun of god" doesn't make sense.
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M*W: The term "sun of god" is misleading. The ancients believed Sol, the sun, was the good creator god, and the moon was the evil god of darkness (associated with the goddess of ancient matriarchal societies) who killed the male creator Sun, and called them evil, and the ancient Sun worshippers (also called the patriarchs of the Bible) eventually came to suppress and destroy the matriarchal societies by calling them evil, demon possessed, a threat to mankind who accused them of having powerful sexual attributes that would seduce and destroy mankind (i.e. the Patriarchy). Because the goddess culture had sexual powers over men who couldn't resist, women were doomed as evil, ergo Eve was accused for the fall of "man."

Another allegory to this ancient belief is that the Patriarchy believed the male to be all-knowing, all-powerful, and ever-present, and were symbolized by the erect penis which was pointing upward. The symbol of the erect penis also portrayed in ancient architecture in the Greco-Roman Era as columnar phallic symbols. The main fear the Patriarchy had was their own destruction by the goddess culture who intentionally, and with malice of forethought, caused their stiff, erect, throbbing penis to ejaculate and go limp, facing downward toward the Patriarchally created hell, fire and brimstone. Woman had the power to overcome man and make him weak and unable to conquer the Earth. Destroying any evidence of matriarchal societies was the main game plan of the Patriarchy. Fortunately, it is now the Patriarchy who's going down and taking their false religions with them!
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Yorda: there's much symbolism in the bible, which we no longer understand. we use symbolism today also, and in the future, we will no longer understand it, unless we try to decipher it. astrology originated from egypt... i think it's truth.
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M*W: True. The bible is all symbolism and allegory. I believe it to be one of, if not the first, astrological calendars. The characters in the bible are stars, planets, constellations, etc., with the Sun being the great creator God whose name has changed over the Ages. The only way to understand the bible as any shape or form of truth is to compare its symbolism to astrological signs and wonders.

A lengthy reference is found at:

http://www.mazzaroth.com/

No one is doomed to eternal suffering. Only the person who chooses to deny the Truth written in their hearts desires, in consequence, eternal suffering. No one is fated thus.

Through the process of imitating the divine and perfect life of Christ we humans are slowly transformed into perfection, by suffering, like He did.

God also accepts into his kingdom those who are imperfect, who in their life, because of their brokeness, were unable to become perfect. When these souls pass into the next world they must endure the fires of purgatory, in which there is no equall pain on earth, nor any equal joy of coming bliss. This includes a huge portion of souls.

This is a reasonable doctrine. Theology and Tradition and Scripture teach that God is perfect being. Therefore his mercy is perfect and he would not consign anyone to the outer darkness unless they hated Him and demonstrated it by a lifetime of sinning.

It is correct not to use the word "Eternal" when describing the unending flames of Hell. However, those who choose to go there by demonstrating to God a lifetime of sinning will never be allowed out.

Eternity is proper to God alone.

Purgatory is a place for those souls who did not acheive perfection in this life. Spiritual perfection is not the same as good grades or proper attire or manners.

Those in purgatory suffer greater pains than any on this earth. They also have the greatest joy possible in the knowledge that they will soon enter into the Beatific Vision

So do not despair if you are not perfect. God's mercy is incomprehensible.

We are born as an imperfect being,
we are made by GOD (assuming creationism is true), He made us to be imperfect, therefore,
We're made perfect, but with the choice to become imperfect.


why am I doomed in eternal hell for my wrong doings that are beyond my full control.

The thing is that at often at one point we did have control. For instance, now, a drug addict might not have control over his addiction, but before, when he first tried the drug, he could have chosen not to. So too, just because he doesn't have control over his habbit now doesn't mean latter he's not going to have control.

M*W: They feared and awed the Sun which had the power of life and death.
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Yorda: The things about sun being the creator, the moon being the destroyer of sun... that was the way people explained and understood the world at that time. Primitive people created stories about gods, who cast thunderbolts, instead of saying that lightning comes from the union of positive and negative forces.

But the "ancient" people knew that there were no "gods". They teached the primitive humans about the nature of reality, but usually, the people distorted their teachings over time. The ancient people also had to teach these primitive humans in a special way. Moses, who was a sort of reincarnation of that ancient race, said that god sent him, god wrote the commandments, because this was the way people understood it. Of course, he knew that he... his "higher self" did all those things through him.

Why would people create "stories" about people like Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Quetzacoatl... there must be truth in them. Why are there stories about giants? There must be truth in those stories, in astrology... even though some things sound really weird, they have just been distorted over times, and the truth is still hidden there.

The countless stories about gods are not pure fantasy. Even thought they seem to be, when you look at them from the outside. Most of them are true, in one way or another, when we compare them to what we know today.
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M*W: Eve was accused for the fall of "man."
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Yorda: According to the Bible, the snake (the personal, egoistic 'voice' in our mind) was the reason for it. I think Adam and Eve also symbolize positive and negative, and these two are always equal.

The snake is consciousness. Consciousness separated us from the TRUTH ("God"). Before the "fall of man", we were like animals, rather unconscious. By believing in our persons, we separate ourselves from other things, and we do many egoistic and evil things because of that. That's why religions say that we should forget our persons and do good to others, so that we would become like "god" again. Unconscious, omnipresent, all-knowing, all powerful etc.

We know that creation begins with the negative pole being expelled from this unity and the two poles consequently drawing apart and becoming opposed to each other as force and resistance.

So... maybe this is why the "woman" was supposed to be the reason for the fall of mankind. However, even if the woman is physically a negative manifestation, she has, of course, nothing to do with that.

But again, the truth was told to the primitive people, in symbolic stories like the garden of eden, so that they would understand them easier.

M*W: The only creator the Earth has is the Sun.

but people don't want to know what "created" the earth, they want to know what created the existence of everything. religions usually refer to consciousness when they talk about "light", or something similar at least. "i am the consciousness of the world".

unfortunately religions have NO answer other than the FANTASY they invented to explain things.

and science tells us that matter cannot be created or destroyed only changed,
and you cant create something from nothing,
so the universe probably always existed in some form/shape..its eternal

God gave the angels free will and a large number of them rebelled against Him.
talk about a silly story,full of contradictions
God is supposedly ALL KNOWING,so he KNEW what everyone will do!
which means NO free will.
So men must be tested on the Earth to see which of them is faithful and willing to obey God.
IF God asked you to KILL your OWN child,...would you do it?

God is allowing Satan to do the testing to try men and see who is worthy to be an angel and who is not worthy.
so God is RESPONSIBLE for everything Satan does then?
and since Satan does evil .....God is responsible for evil..

God was willing to die, as an atonement for sin, so that others may be forgiven and go to heaven.
what a load of horseshyt.
so basicaly the story says:
God had to sacrifice himself to himself to change the rule he made himself,in the first place..

I guess the word LOGIC doesnt exist in your vocabulary

[As things are now, it looks to me like you are failing your test. You get an F on this test, and believe me, you won't like the results of that forever.]
spare us with the threat of the imaginary eternal hell nonsense,it doesnt exist.
you live you die..and thats it
no afterlife or souls
www.atheists.org/Atheism/mind.html

.When these souls pass into the next world they must endure the fires of purgatory, in which there is no equall pain on earth, nor any equal joy of coming bliss. This includes a huge portion of souls.
hate to urinate on your parade dawg..but those souls are just a fantasy,invented by the simpleminded way back then..

www.atheists.org/Atheism/mind.html

Theology and Tradition and Scripture teach that God is perfect being.
I disagree
If God was perfect He wouldnt create imperfect man,if he was All good and allmighty there would be no evil
(www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/god)

You're talking about a god that demands a blood sacrifice before he'll forgive you for breaking his rules.

Eternal torture fits in nicely with this ethic.

~Raithere

In the universe God created there is a principle of balance. Summer balanced by winter. To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. etc....
God is balancing eternal happiness for those that become Christians, against eternal punishment for those that refuse to become Christians.

God is balancing eternal happiness for those that become Christians, against eternal punishment for those that refuse to become Christians.

God seems to be a pretty stupid and evil entity.. your comparison is invalid.

ghost7584: In the universe God created there is a principle of balance. Summer balanced by winter. To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. etc.... God is balancing eternal happiness for those that become Christians, against eternal punishment for those that refuse to become Christians.
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M*W: Bull-fucking-shit! There is no god who is "balancing eternal happiness for those that become Christians!" That's absurd, but not an uncommon belief for christians. Boy, are they deluded!

In the universe God created there is a principle of balance. Summer balanced by winter. To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. etc....
God is balancing eternal happiness for those that become Christians, against eternal punishment for those that refuse to become Christians.These are false dichotomies. But if we ignore that and accept this argument it means that God created the world with the full intent of creating eternal suffering. I find this immoral. It also means that God is either unable or unwilling to do better. Which, in either case, means he's not much of a god, IMO.

~Raithere

We are born as an imperfect being,
we are made by GOD (assuming creationism is true), He made us to be imperfect, therefore, why am I doomed in eternal hell for my wrong doings that are beyond my full control.

Where do people get this crap from? Nevermind, I know...

Listen, no one is doomed to hell for wrong doings. That is the opposite of what scripture says. Scripture says that your acts do not determine your salvation, but are merely a manifestation of your spiritual life into the physical world.

Salvation is here. You make a choice. You either want to live with God forever or you don't. It's that simple. In this life you are taught, through experience, the consequence of good and evil. You live and die by His law.

If you choose not to want anything to do with God, then that's exactly what you get...that's the definition of hell. And if you choose it every single day of your life, then why would anything change in the afterlife? Who says it can't change in the afterlife?

The real question is what do you want?

"Knowing for sure" is arrogance...a sin. No one knows for sure, thats part of the faith.

If you're born again, trust me, you know it. When God interacts with you like that it changes everything. He's turned my whole life upside down. He takes my world like it's a little snow globe, shakes it up real good, and plops it back down. I'm still reeling from the last shake. It was a doozy. Knowledge of Him and His nature changes your perception about everything. Epiphanies for everyone! *cheers*

The real question is what do you want?

I want to go to heaven, but i don't want to carry my cross, ok? :D

I find the concept of heaven as repulsive as hell. If I want to hurt someone, I can't. I have no free will. I rather spend in hell for eternity with Eistein, Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin than with ignorant Christians.

I want to go to heaven, but i don't want to carry my cross, ok? :D

ok, you're ready to go, all people go to "heaven" (nothingness) sooner or later, it's predetermined. if you want to go to heaven fast, try to be a good person. you ask good questions, that's a good thing i think...

there's really only one mind, and several consciousnesses. we're not several minds conscious of one universe, but one mind, conscious of an infinite number of 'personal' universes.

I want to go to heaven, but i don't want to carry my cross, ok? :D

It's done in Christ.

the point is that god never created us...
in fact there is no such thing as a god...
if ever there is a god... he's just a figment of our imagination...
nothing more nothing less!!!

why am I doomed in eternal hell for my wrong doings that are beyond my full control.

You are only doomed until you kick the butt of the god that created hell right back into his hell.
Then you might wake up and just kill yourself laughing at all the gods that would break down doors to give you their souls just to die laughing.

-- just thoughts