Lay and Skilling were found guilty of securities fraud and face life in prison! :)

They will be sentenced only if they lose their appeals. :confused:

They can appeal for decades to come, meanwhile enjoying their ill-gotten gains. :mad:

If you steal enough cash, you're not innocent until proven guilty, you're innocent until the guilty verdict is upheld umpteen times.

Bastards should be drawn and quartered in the town square where most of the affected employees live.
And it should be broadcast live on pay-per-view with the proceeds going to the employees.

Skilling finally went to prison (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/13/business/main2255792.shtml). Wonder of wonders, the judge rejected his request to remain free pending a lifetime of appeals.

I think the fact is if the employees were stupid enough to ignore all the signs and willing to work for Enron they're just as culpable as the managers there. Hell I have no sympathy for stupid people :-Z~ (myself included grr)

I think the fact is if the employees were stupid enough to ignore all the signs

Don't be this ignorant. The leadership kept lying to them. What signs are you talking about?? Even analysts couldn't tell how Enron was making money, it was such a complex business. There was only one woman, who smelt rat...

What? I thought directors couldn't be held liable....? :confused:

What signs are you talking about?? Even analysts couldn't tell how Enron was making money, ...

Ahh, you hit right on the nailhead, didn't you? Even while trying to make excuses for the greedy people who tried to suck more and more money!

Any competent analyst in the world could have seen that "something" was wrong ...yet greed kept investors from looking too deeply into the obvious.

Baron Max

Well, that doesn't make the company any better, does it? And what about the employees and other stakeholders? Did they have any options?

Well, that doesn't make the company any better, does it?

Are you expecting corporate executives to be ...saints?? What is it you're expecting, TS? I don't get it ...you know enough about humans to know what kinds of things they're capable of, yet you seem shocked when they do it. What's the deal with you?

And what about the employees and other stakeholders? Did they have any options?

The "handwriting" was all over the walls, all over town, all over the nation, yet those people chose to stay or keep investing because they were just as greedy as the executives. Yet you feel sorry for them? Why? Are you thinking that employees and shareholders are saints, too?

Baron Max

I feel a little sorry for those employees who lost their pensions, but it was known for at least a decade prior to the Enron collapse that nobody's pension is safe. A company can legally raid it at any time. They only have to promise to make it whole. Had Enron raided the pension fund and then collapsed due to bad decisions made in good faith, the employees would be out their pension but nobody would have gone to jail.

I can't feel sorry for the employees who lost their 401K money that was in Enron stock, any more than I feel sorry for any other Enron investor. That's the gamble they voluntarily took. If they had all their money in Enron (and a lot of them did), then they violated a basic tenet of investing: diversification.

Any competent analyst in the world could have seen that "something" was wrong

And except one, they didn't. Watch the movie about Enron or read the book...

Are you expecting corporate executives to be ...saints??

Saints? no. Abiding the law? Yes. :)


The "handwriting" was all over the walls, all over town, all over the nation,

So I take you were shorting Enron like crazy???

And except one, they didn't. Watch the movie about Enron or read the book...

If you say it, then it must be true.

Baron Max

If you say it, then it must be true.


FINALLY, you are getting it. :)

The Enron movie can be watched on Youtube, sliced up into 11 or so 10 mins parts. It is pretty entertaining and educative, I advise you to watch it...

Are you expecting corporate executives to be ...saints?? What is it you're expecting, TS? I don't get it ...you know enough about humans to know what kinds of things they're capable of, yet you seem shocked when they do it. What's the deal with you?
Where do I seem shocked?

Skilling's in prison and Lay's in the ground from suicide.
Yay!

Now. None of the people who lost their retirements and whatnot didn't benefit at all, did they?

Should have sold the fuckers into slavery to pay their debts to their employees.

Skilling's in prison and Lay's in the ground from suicide. Yay!

Now. None of the people who lost their retirements and whatnot didn't benefit at all, did they? Should have sold the fuckers into slavery to pay their debts to their employees.

Not one single individual investor was forced to put his money into the Enron accounts ....not ONE! They did it all voluntarily, and most without even doing the meagerest investigation or checking. Their greed got to them in the exact same way as Skilling and Lay's greed got to them.

Many make out the employees of Enron as victims, but every single one of them were ecstatic at making such returns before the shit hit the fan. Someone mentioned "fairness" in this thread ...but you'll notice that no one mentioned "fairness" when those same employees were swimming in money!

I made a lot of money investing in Enron in the early days. But even as greedy as I am, I knew, just "knew", that there was something too damned good to be true. I pulled my money out a few months before the shit hit the fan. Why didn't the others??? I have no pity for overly greedy mutha-fuckers!

Baron Max

They did it all voluntarily

They did it because they were lied to.
It's called fraud, Baron.
Plain and simple.
You don't even have your usual fall-back mechanism of saying that they've not even been tried and convicted.
They have been tried and convicted.
They broke the law. They are guilty. They are going to prison. Well, he is going to prison. Lay felt so much remorse (or fear of consequence) that he committed suicide to escape his fate.

But even as greedy as I am, I knew, just "knew", that there was something too damned good to be true.

Wow. You must be psychic or something then.

Why didn't the others???

Because Lay and Skilling falsified documents. That's why. They induced their employees to invest in the company based on phony evidence that the company was making money.

Martha Stewart also sold her stocks before the end, but not because of some instinctual danger-sense. Insider information was her crime.

There are rules, Baron. You do know this, yes?
There are rules. And if you break the rules, and are caught breaking the rules, then you pay the price.

I have no pity for overly greedy mutha-fuckers!

Then why are you defending them?

They did it because they were lied to. It's called fraud, Baron. Plain and simple.

Would you, do you, invest your entire life savings based on someone else's info without doing any checking on your own? If so, I can see why you're so upset.

They have been tried and convicted.
They broke the law. They are guilty. They are going to prison.

That's fine ...they were found guilty, and they're being punished for it.

The "victims" were also found out, and they, too, are being punished for being so greedy and so fuckin' ignorant.

There are rules, Baron. You do know this, yes?
There are rules. And if you break the rules, and are caught breaking the rules, then you pay the price.

And Skilling and Lay ARE paying the price. What's your beef???

What I'm talking aobut is NOT Lay and Skilling, but about the stupid, greedy, selfish investors who now claim that they weren't being stupid, greedy and selfish, and expect something in compensation for it.

I'm not defending Lay and Skilling .....and if you think so, then either you're not reading my posts, or you're dumber than a box of rocks.

Baron Max

Would you, do you, invest your entire life savings based on someone else's info without doing any checking on your own?

How do you 'check on your own'?
Insider information is illegal.
You can only acquire information through legal routes.
Such as the documents which were falsified by Lay and Skilling.

The "victims" were also found out, and they, too, are being punished for being so greedy and so fuckin' ignorant.

Ignorant? Because they believed the documents that were produced showing the companies prospects?
Documents which, if shown to be fraudulent, would entail prison time for the perpetrators?

Just how do you propose that the public become not 'ignorant'?

These psychic powers you seem to possess?


As to greed.
Why do you call it greed?
Is it greed to invest in a company which you believe in?
A company which sells you on the idea of being part of something?

And Skilling and Lay ARE paying the price. What's your beef???

What I'm talking about is compensation for victims of fraud.
Skilling and Lay are not compensating their victims. The price they are paying does not fit the crime. Although, perhaps it will discourage similar cases of fraud in the future.

I'm not defending Lay and Skilling .....and if you think so, then either you're not reading my posts, or you're dumber than a box of rocks.

Skilling and Lay committed fraud. By attacking the victims of the fraud, you are acquitting the perpetrators of the fraud.

You're saying that 'a fool and his money are soon parted'. But, the problem is that the fraud victims were not being foolish. They were making a sound investment based on the documentation available to them. Documentation which was reasonably expected to be true.

How do you 'check on your own'? Insider information is illegal. You can only acquire information through legal routes.
Such as the documents which were falsified by Lay and Skilling.

How did I and thousands of other investors do it? In my case, I smelled a rat ...things were just too fuckin' good to be true. and when that happens, you'd best listen to your gut instincts. Those who lost everything were damned fools, in the most serious way!

What I'm talking about is compensation for victims of fraud. Skilling and Lay are not compensating their victims. The price they are paying does not fit the crime.

P. T. Barnum never compensated anyone for the "fraud" either. and he was the first to say, "There's a damned fool born every day!" ...or something similar.

Ignorant? Because they believed the documents that were produced showing the companies prospects? Documents which, if shown to be fraudulent, would entail prison time for the perpetrators?

Ya' know, about twice a week I get emails from some outfit that claims that they're holding a million dollars for me. And all I have to do is send them $1500 dollars for legal fees. I've been sending in that money now for, oh, several years and I'm waiting patiently for the million bucks. Have you sent in your $1500 bucks yet? Why not?

Just how do you propose that the public become not 'ignorant'?

If you want to be an investor, want to gamble your life savings, then I'd suggest developing a bit more skill in the game. How? It's easy, but it's time consuming. But what's the alternative???? Ask yourself that question.

You're saying that 'a fool and his money are soon parted'. But, the problem is that the fraud victims were not being foolish. They were making a sound investment based on the documentation available to them. Documentation which was reasonably expected to be true.

Well, they made a sound investment, didn't they? I know I did! I made money from Enron. But a sound investment doesn't mean it'll be the same years into the future. Listen, you said it yourself, "A fool and his money are soon parted." That's excellent advice and if the Enron investors had taken that tiny bit of advice, they wouldn't be in the situation that they're in.

You want, so much, for the victims to be totally innocent .....but they ain't, my friend, not be a long, long shot. They fucked up and they know it, and the lack of lawsuits prove that they know it.

Baron Max

How did I and thousands of other investors do it? In my case, I smelled a rat ...

Like I said. Psychic powers.
You had not objective criteria, you just distrusted that the company would continue to make money as it had in the past.
Your spidey-sense was tingling.

P. T. Barnum never compensated anyone for the "fraud" either. and he was the first to say, "There's a damned fool born every day!" ...or something similar.

There's a bit of a difference here. P.T. Barnum didn't commit fraudulent acts. He merely sold things that were larger than life.

As far as I know, he was never convicted for fraud. I could be wrong.

Ya' know, about twice a week I get emails from some outfit that claims that they're holding a million dollars for me. And all I have to do is send them $1500 dollars for legal fees.

This is completely different from what Enron did in falsifying documents. I actually think that these emails you are receiving might well constitute fraud, but are obviously so. There is no legally defined mandate that they provide proper documentation of their financial status as was the case with Enron.

Apples and oranges.

If you want to be an investor, want to gamble your life savings, then I'd suggest developing a bit more skill in the game.

The root of the matter is not that they gambled and failed. But rather that they gambled on the pretense of falsified documents. Had the documents not been falsified and Enron had still gone tits up, then the investors would not have been fraud victims. They would simply have made a poor investment. Happens everyday.

However, fraud such as was perpetrated by Lay and Skilling does not occur every day. The investors had every reason to believe that the information that they were presented with was factual.

Well, they made a sound investment, didn't they?

No, they didn't. They made an investment based on false pretenses.
That's not what I would call a 'sound investment'.

Your investment strategy seems to be something to do with psychic emanations, so I hardly think you're a reliable source on sound investment practice.

They fucked up and they know it, and the lack of lawsuits prove that they know it.

Ah. You've finally found the way to bring up your "they've not been tried and convicted" argument.
They've been tried and convicted of criminal offenses, but not civil charges.

I don't know about the prospect of civil suits, but I suspect that they will be pending.

I certainly hope so, because if Lay and Skilling are guilty of fraud as their criminal convictions show, then surely they (Skilling actually) should also be liable for civil suits.
However, there is an old maxim, "You can't squeeze blood from a turnip."
Skilling has, I'm sure, covered his ass seven ways to Sunday as far as his personal finances go. I doubt that there will be any way for the fraud victims to get him to compensate them even slightly.

Debtor's prison was outlawed long ago...

A pity that he won't be in the type of prison where he'll become Bubba's bitch for a few years. Club Fed, more like.

However, fraud such as was perpetrated by Lay and Skilling does not occur every day. The investors had every reason to believe that the information that they were presented with was factual.

Do you have any idea at all about how many companies on the NYSE paint rosey pictures in their documentation ...yet fail miserably in the coming months?

And do you have any idea of the number of astute investors who shy away from such companies because of their ..."spidey-sense"?

Did you also know that astute investors, successful investors, never use the companies' own reports as the sole source of investment info?

Did you also know that fraud is one of the most difficult cases to prove in the courts? A tiny bit of fudging here and there can make things seem rosey, yet can be passed off as variations in bookkeeping or minor errors?

Do you know how many companies send out their quarterly reports ...only to provide updated, corrected quarterly reports a few days later? How many millions can change hands in a few days on the NYSE?

Your posts remind me so much of the way losers whine when they pick the wrong stocks to invest in ....it's never their fault! Did you invest in Enron???? :D

"A fool and his money are soon parted." And that remains true to this day.

Baron Max