I'm not enthusiastic or sober enough to explore this in depth at the moment.
But isn't it interesting how similar england and japan are.
Or were. Not today, because the world's fascinating diversity has been mixed into a dirty brown colour, but through history.

There's the obvious "mirror image" they are geographically(or close enough).
But coincidentally it seems as though england and japan were the pinnacle of the east and west respectively. They had similar feudal systems and similar ideals. Markedly different, but along the same vein (the english were obsessed with chivalry and good sportsmanship while the japanese were big on honour and whatever).

Isn't this strange, that they would share qualities which aren't shared by cultures more closely related to each than they are to eachother?

Blah blah discuss...

I guess i dont really know all that much about it, but by what youv described i would have to say that its a very intresting idea....i wonder why no one else has thought of it? Great thread by the way. :m:

Damn, I had my fingers set to "insult and destroy" when I saw that you had replied.
*kisses knuckles and puts them back in pocket*

Why aren't you nipping at my ass like you usually do?

Even the island sizes are somewhat similar. Britain is a little climatically cooler though.

One similarity is the linguistic influences they had from their respective continents.
at least 70% of English vocab comes from vulgar Latin.
at least 70% of Japanese vocab comes from Middle Chinese.

Damn, I had my fingers set to "insult and destroy" when I saw that you had replied.
*kisses knuckles and puts them back in pocket*

Why aren't you nipping at my ass like you usually do?

:D , because i guess i was bein an argumentative prick for the sake of it, and i also think that this thread has a pretty cool idea behind it, when did you first think of this?

I know what you mean with the whole "insult and destroy" thing, that was the trouble, i saw a few of your posts i didnt like, and whenever i saw your name i would automatically take the kind of action you "oh so well" describe :)

Although there are some similarities, their political developments were almost poles apart. Britain evolved from an absolute monarchy to a democracy gradually over a long period of time (Magna Carta, English revolution, glorious revolution, parliamentary reforms in the 19th and 20th centuries). Japan on the other hand was essentially a dictatorship (mostly by shoguns) until the 19th century. The shogunate was replaced by an oligarchic military government until WWII and became a democracy by American imposition.

I think a few people have suggested this before. Certainly Japan for the first half of the 20th century was nipping at the UK's heels, deriding them as an imperial power at the same time as trying to emulate them in Manchuria etc.

Mathman, I think he's talking about abstract ideals and stuff, in which case you can draw comparisons between every country on the planet if you do it right.

Another similarity would be that we (UK) created the industrial revolution and the Japan's created the hi-tec revolution.

Both the Japanese and English were also feral, flea-infested barbarians that conquered the native matriarchy and erected patriarchies (there's a double entendre in there). They then borrowed their levels of cultural sophistication from the mainland. Well, for the english pigs, several hundred years of French occupation sort of forced culture on them.

heh
and pop goes the lunatic's bubble

Roman, I think your oversimplifying things.
What native matriarchy where? Only evidence for one that I heard of was a small one in Western India.
Cultural sophistication? The mainland was decadent, thats what was wrong. And the Normans werent quite french, and brought a rather barbaric sort of culture to England.

Roman, I think your oversimplifying things.
If Doc gets to oversimplify, I get to oversimplify.

What native matriarchy where? Only evidence for one that I heard of was a small one in Western India.

You don't get out much, do you? Japan's prehistory was a semi-hunter gatherer society. Typical of these societies, the culture was matriarchal with female deities. I think Japan still has a goddess, which is a holdover.

Other islands had matriarchies, such as Minoa & Crete before mainland barbarians invaded.

Let us not forget Morgan le Fay, a holdover from matriarchal times and a threat to Arthur's patriarchal order.

Cultural sophistication? The mainland was decadent, thats what was wrong. And the Normans werent quite french, and brought a rather barbaric sort of culture to England.

Meh.

Sure, but theres not a lot of evidence, and anyway, is there really any serious cultural hold over from pre feudal Japan and the modern version?

You do know that morgan le fay is, as far as I am aware, having read the mabinogion and some other stuff, not to be found in the original Celtic Arthurian legends, and is most likley a feudal addition made in the early medieval period?

Whilst I am sympathetic ot the idea that there were matriarchies about in the bronze age if not partly into the iron age, we lack much actual evidence to show it. Just as compelling if not even more so is that these societies were more balanced, ie had both male and female deities, with appropriate fertility rites etc.

guthrie,
is there really any serious cultural hold over from pre feudal Japan and the modern version?

Yeah, there is. Honor. The Japanese have a very strong sense of honor. Intense loyalty to their employers. Attributable to Japan's low crime rate, criminals lose family and friends through their dishonor in being caught. Japan still has an emperor.

You do know that morgan le fay is, as far as I am aware, having read the mabinogion and some other stuff, not to be found in the original Celtic Arthurian legends, and is most likley a feudal addition made in the early medieval period?

And Arthur never had a round table. One may use period literature, in context with historical stuff, to show what people were thinking at the time. Symbolism and stories within stories.

im in japan at the moment and have been thinking exactly the same thing.i think the main differences now are because japan was opened to the world far later than england.and also on average japanese people have slightly worse teeth than english people.

But coincidentally it seems as though england and japan were the pinnacle of the east and west respectively.
Japan was the "pinnacle of the east"? I think you need to study Chinese history a bit more closely. ;)

And as for England being the "pinnacle of the west", well that's even more arguable than Japan's place in history. :eek:

Yeah, there is. Honor. The Japanese have a very strong sense of honor. Intense loyalty to their employers. Attributable to Japan's low crime rate, criminals lose family and friends through their dishonor in being caught. Japan still has an emperor.
But what evidence do you have for a cult of honour lasting over 1,000 years?
(And have you noticed how under the impact of long term recession its fragmenting somewhat?)


And Arthur never had a round table. One may use period literature, in context with historical stuff, to show what people were thinking at the time. Symbolism and stories within stories.
The key words are thinking at the time. Again, you have to show how this is related to the past, to what it was like in say Saxon England, and presumably you are also aware of how Chuivalry came from Provence etc. Or for a different take, you do know about the 15th century romance of "sir gawain and the green knight?" which has definite female themes, but in a good way rather than bad. So does that mean that matriarchy was secretly revered in Norther England, even past the Romans leaving, being settled by Danes, and then being overcome by Normans? Or is it a derivation of dodgy stuff brought back from the crusades and mixed in with the local green man worship?

By the way, you do know that the saxon kingdom was doing quite nicely thank you before William invaded. It was properly organised, minting its own coins, able to field an army capable of fighting 2 major battles inside a fortnight, etc etc.

guthrie,
The key words are thinking at the time. Again, you have to show how this is related to the past, to what it was like in say Saxon England, and presumably you are also aware of how Chuivalry came from Provence etc.

I don't know what you're saying in the first bit, but yeah, chivalry came from the mainland. The first real piece of civilization the isle got.

Or for a different take, you do know about the 15th century romance of "sir gawain and the green knight?" which has definite female themes, but in a good way rather than bad. So does that mean that matriarchy was secretly revered in Norther England, even past the Romans leaving, being settled by Danes, and then being overcome by Normans?

Could be. Or it could just be a holdover from the matriarchial times. Old habits die hard.

Or is it a derivation of dodgy stuff brought back from the crusades and mixed in with the local green man worship?

Could be.

By the way, you do know that the saxon kingdom was doing quite nicely thank you before William invaded. It was properly organised, minting its own coins, able to field an army capable of fighting 2 major battles inside a fortnight, etc etc.

I didn't know it was the size of your army that made you civilized.