It turns out that a new experiment has proven that astral projection is real. The physical process was described below:


'Spectrum of empathy' found in the brain

Ever wondered how some people can “put themselves into another person's shoes” and some people cannot? Our ability to empathise with others seems to depend on the action of "mirror neurons" in the brain, according to a new study.

Mirror neurons, known to exist in humans and in macaque monkeys, activate when an action is observed, and also when it is performed. Now new research reveals that there are mirror neurons in humans that fire when sounds are heard. In other words, if you hear the noise of someone eating an apple, some of the same neurons fire as when you eat the apple yourself.

So-called auditory mirror neurons were known only in macaques. To determine if they exist in humans Valeria Gazzola, at the school of behavioural and cognitive neurosciences neuroimaging centre at the University of Groningen, the Netherlands, and colleagues, put 16 volunteers into functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) scanners and observed their brains as they were played different noises.

The volunteers heard noises such as a sheet of paper being torn, or of someone crunching potato chips. Then the same subjects were scanned again, this time whilst tearing a piece of paper, or eating potato chips.
Vicarious crunching

“We combined the data from listening and execution and looked to see if the activity in the brain overlaps,” says Gazzola’s colleague Christian Keysers, also at the University of Groningen. Sure enough, it did overlap. Motor neurons associated with mouth actions (crunching) and hand actions (ripping) were activated in both cases.

The overlap occurred in areas of the brain such as the bilateral temporal gyrus and the superior temporal sulcus.

“The mirror system is a particular form of Pavlovian association,” says Keysers, referring to the classic behavioural experiments where dogs were trained to associate food with the noise of a bell. “Each time you crunch a potato chip you hear yourself crunching the chip, and now when you hear someone else crunching it activates your own action neurons.”
Spectrum of difference

The phenomenon has been exploited by advertisers for years – think of the Coca-cola commercials comprising of just the noise of a bottle of Coke being opened, the fizz of the drink and the sound of the drinking. And intriguingly, subjects in the study who scored higher in empathy tests also showed higher levels of mirror neuron activation.

Differences in empathy scores and mirror neuron activity have been observed between autistic and non-autistic people, says Keysers, but this is the first time a spectrum of difference has been found in non-autistic people. “How empathetic we are seems to be related to how strongly our mirror neuron system is activated,” he says.

“It’s exciting because we can start to look at the diversity of experiences of other people. Some people see others through themselves, and some are more objective about it.”
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn10108&feedId=online-news_rss20
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_cells

The ability to project yourself out of your body and into the body of another, is the basis for empathy. The physical process works through mirror neurons, which I suppose not everyone has.

The physical basis for astral projection, the scientific version, is simply a mirroring neuron system in the brain hardware.

What do mirror neurons mean?
http://www.interdisciplines.org/mirror

My personal speculation is, that people who have this ability, share a sense of self, or a type of unity through this ability. If you can mirror your friend, and put yourself in his body, and he can put himself in your body, through this form of astral projection or neuron mirroring, it allows you to have a type of intimacy which would not exist if you both were to view each other as objects, or as seperate entities. Magnify this, and if you, your friends and others can project into other people, into animals, and so on, you gain a certain unique type of intimacy. Human's are not the only animal that can do this, monkeys do it, and mice do it, and we also happen to be genetically related to these animals. The question, what does this mean?

I think I'll wait for a little more confirmation and tests, etc. This test/experiment is not the first nor will it be the last ...but few have ever been able to duplicate the results.

Yeah, I think I'll wait a bit,

Baron Max

None of the serious work seems to have anything to do with astro projection. The originator of this thread is doing a smoke & mirrors job on naive readers who might not take the time to read all the links.

This is intellectual fraud. Advocates of astral projection should post in a pseudo science forum.

TimeTraveler... you COMEPETELY misread the news story. The idea of mirror neurons is nothing new. In fact, I found out this is what made me get better at certain things I can do (just by watching others do them).

However, Astral projection? PLEASE....

It's nothing to do with astral projection.

Neither is it surprising that 'mirror' neurons have been found to be working in the brain. Empathy is not a new concept, some have it more than others but all are capable of it. The thing is that everything we feel or experience is happening in the brain, so it is natural that the same areas of the brain as other peoples would be activated in response to similar events outside the body.

None of the serious work seems to have anything to do with astro projection. The originator of this thread is doing a smoke & mirrors job on naive readers who might not take the time to read all the links.

This is intellectual fraud. Advocates of astral projection should post in a pseudo science forum.

Did you read the links I posted? Astral projection simply means projecting your mind outside of your body, it does not mean physically going out of your body. and being able to manipulate objects.

TimeTraveler... you COMEPETELY misread the news story. The idea of mirror neurons is nothing new. In fact, I found out this is what made me get better at certain things I can do (just by watching others do them).

However, Astral projection? PLEASE....

Astral projection is based on mirror neurons.

Just because I used the word astral projection, your mind thought up psychics, the tooth fairy, and cartoons instead of a more scientific astral projection.

Astral projection (or astral travel) is an interpretation of out-of-body experiences (OBEs) achieved either awake or via lucid dreaming, deep meditation, or use of psychotropics. Proponents of astral projection maintain that their consciousness or soul has transferred into an astral body (or "double"), which moves en tandem with the physical body in a parallel world known as the astral plane.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_projection

Now, when you, project yourself into the body of someone else, do you have a better name for this behavior besides astral projection that common people can understand without actually understanding what mirror neurons are or how they work?

It's basically the same thing, mirror neurons are the basis behind astral projection.

None of the serious work seems to have anything to do with astro projection. The originator of this thread is doing a smoke & mirrors job on naive readers who might not take the time to read all the links.

This is intellectual fraud. Advocates of astral projection should post in a pseudo science forum.


It's not pseudo-science if mirror neurons are real. Prove there is a difference between astral projection, and mirror neurons, because to the person doing the projecting, it's the same mental state exactly, it requires mirror neurons to do either of these things, and that is the science which makes it cease being pseudo-science. If I used a different word such as, mental projection, would it suddenly become science to you?


It's nothing to do with astral projection.

Empathy requires that you put yourself into the body of another. If this is not astral projection, what is it? Don't just give a one word answer like "empathy" and expect people to know what it is, thats as silly as calling it magic.

The question is, what allows a person to feel anothers pain? Sure the universe is the mind, but it's not the brain, thats my opinion, but thats because even if all human brains didnt exist, the universe would still exist as long as something were here to percieve it. No mind, no universe, but you can have a universe with no brain.

Anyway, please define what empathy is, if it's not astral projection, then it's mental projection, and if it's not mental projection, then what is it? Since not everyone has empathy, the word has as much meaning as astral traveling, unless you can actually explain what it is (and your explaination was even worse than mine).

Empathy is one's ability to recognize, perceive and directly experientially feel the emotion of another. As the states of mind, beliefs, and desires of others are intertwined with their emotions, one with empathy for another may often be able to more effectively divine another's modes of thought and mood. Empathy is often characterized as the ability to "put oneself into another's shoes", or experiencing the outlook or emotions of another being within oneself, a sort of emotional resonance.

Human capacity to recognize the emotions of another is related to one's imitative capacities, and seems to be grounded in one's innate capacity to associate the bodily movements and facial expressions one sees in another with the proprioceptive feelings of one's corresponding movements or expressions.

Humans also seem to make the same immediate connection between the tone of voice, and body language of another and one's inner feeling. Hence, by looking at the facial expressions or bodily movements of another, or by hearing another's tone of voice, one may be able to get an immediate sense of how another seems to feel on the inside. One experiences this as anything in a range, from understanding, to directly experiencing, or to feeling another's emotion (say, sadness or anger), rather than just noting the behavioral symptoms of another's emotion.

Wikipedia

Astral projection (or astral travel) is an interpretation of out-of-body experiences (OBEs) achieved either awake or via lucid dreaming, deep meditation, or use of psychotropics. Proponents of astral projection maintain that their consciousness or soul has transferred into an astral body (or "double"), which moves en tandem with the physical body in a parallel world known as the astral plane.

The concept of Astral projection has been around for thousands of years, dating back to ancient China. It is currently often associated with the New Age movement.

Wikipedia

I don't think I could have put it any better myself and the above definitions clearly show that the 2 concepts you are talking about are totally unrelated.

Empathy is one's ability to recognize, perceive and directly experientially feel the emotion of another. As the states of mind, beliefs, and desires of others are intertwined with their emotions, one with empathy for another may often be able to more effectively divine another's modes of thought and mood. Empathy is often characterized as the ability to "put oneself into another's shoes", or experiencing the outlook or emotions of another being within oneself, a sort of emotional resonance.

Human capacity to recognize the emotions of another is related to one's imitative capacities, and seems to be grounded in one's innate capacity to associate the bodily movements and facial expressions one sees in another with the proprioceptive feelings of one's corresponding movements or expressions.

Humans also seem to make the same immediate connection between the tone of voice, and body language of another and one's inner feeling. Hence, by looking at the facial expressions or bodily movements of another, or by hearing another's tone of voice, one may be able to get an immediate sense of how another seems to feel on the inside. One experiences this as anything in a range, from understanding, to directly experiencing, or to feeling another's emotion (say, sadness or anger), rather than just noting the behavioral symptoms of another's emotion.

Wikipedia

Astral projection (or astral travel) is an interpretation of out-of-body experiences (OBEs) achieved either awake or via lucid dreaming, deep meditation, or use of psychotropics. Proponents of astral projection maintain that their consciousness or soul has transferred into an astral body (or "double"), which moves en tandem with the physical body in a parallel world known as the astral plane.

The concept of Astral projection has been around for thousands of years, dating back to ancient China. It is currently often associated with the New Age movement.

Wikipedia

I don't think I could have put it any better myself and the above definitions clearly show that the 2 concepts you are talking about are totally unrelated.


I can tell you it's not facial or body expression. I can feel empathy for an animal that isnt human.

Are you telling me that you believe empathy is a response to body movements? I know for a fact that it's not.

You did a terrible job explaining what empathy is, because I cannot understand your explaination at all. The new age definition of empathy, it's direct and it's in fewer words.

Also, earlier you said everyone has empathy, which proves you don't have a clue what empathy is, if you describe it as something everyone has innately. It's something some of us have and some of us don't have, and it has nothing to do with facial expressions, body language, etc. To be precise, it's feeling the pain of another.

Assume for a moment, that astral travel requires an imaginative ability to go out of your body. This is the same imaginative ability that you require, to put yourself into someone elses shoes, or someone elses position, and you do this all the time when you empathize, it's not simply just looking at facial expressions, because sometimes you actually have to put yourself in their position and view the world from their eyes, sometimes these people aren't even alive anymore, so it has nothing ot do with facial expressions. You can feel empathy just by reading a good book and putting yourself into the story.

The point I'm making is that empathy requires the same imaginative ability as astral travel, because it's the same. If you have empathy, to someone who doesn't, how would they consider it different from astral travel, how would they even know what the hell empathy is based on your definition of it?

Most people don't know what astral travel is, because it's rare, but empathy is rare also, and mental projection is rare. Empathy does not always come form humans, it can come from objects, symbols or things created by humans, it can come from text, it can come from a merger of consciousness like what happens in the religious context or new age context. The point I'm making is that empathy is not universal, your scientifical explaination of it, still would only make sense to a person who has empathy, how would you describe a feeling to someone who has no capability to feel? How can you explain to someone that you know how someone else could feel, all the way across the world, whom you have never met, just based on the situation they are in? Explain how people emotionally connect with complete strangers, over great distances.

Just ignore him. His argument is like this:

A has properties X, Y.
B has properties X, Y.

Therefore, A is B.

Just ignore him. His argument is like this:

A has properties X, Y.
B has properties X, Y.

Therefore, A is B.

They are relative, it could be that A is B. whats your theory, whats A?

do you have a better name for this behavior besides astral projection that common people can understand without actually understanding what mirror neurons are or how they work?
I can think of a better word. How about, you ready? Empathy!

Your thread could have been better and less deceptively called "Empathy found in the brain. Physical basis for empathy"
Or if you don't have a penchant for tautologies, it could be "Empathy found in the brain"
Holy shit! Hooray for IQs of 127!

Time:
How can you explain to someone that you know how someone else could feel, all the way across the world, whom you have never met, just based on the situation they are in? Explain how people emotionally connect with complete strangers, over great distances.



By having a high EQ (emotional quotient). By being centred, feet on the ground, able to observe, listen and assimilate on an emotional level. By being emotionally in tune with others feelings, wants and desires, even of animal's feelings, wants and desires; my wife is a prime example of someone capable of doing this so I do have first hand experience and I understand the meaning of empathy. I assume you have only just heard of it and that is your reason for being so defensive?

In short, empathy is a very positive personality trait, which probably depends on certain neurons firing up in certain areas of the brain. I'm pretty certain that all humans posses these centres and are capable of using them, but it's very likely that they simply happen to be underdeveloped in people with low EQ, and more developed in people with high EQ.

Empathy is not like sympathy, where you feel sorry for another person's misfortune, but where you are able to imagine how it must feel to be that person in that particular situation. It's like visualisation on an emotional level. As it is like visualisation, then it doesn't matter where the sufferer is actually situated, provided the person offering the empathy is aware of the suffering person's predicament.

Astral projection and astral travel is the act of the 'spirit' leaving the physical body while it is asleep or while it's in a meditative trance, to either hover above it or to go sauntering wherever the mood takes it. It is an unproven concept, but again I emphasise, even if astral travel is possible, this is not the way empathy works.

Clinicians that practise empathy are neither asleep, nor in a trance when they do it, in fact on the contrary, they have to be fully awake and fully aware of what they are doing both for the sake of the sufferer and of themselves as it is not unusual for these people to get so emotionally involved with the suffering that they themselves can become damaged in the process.

Time:
How can you explain to someone that you know how someone else could feel, all the way across the world, whom you have never met, just based on the situation they are in? Explain how people emotionally connect with complete strangers, over great distances.



By having a high EQ (emotional quotient). By being centred, feet on the ground, able to observe, listen and assimilate on an emotional level. By being emotionally in tune with others feelings, wants and desires, even of animal's feelings, wants and desires; my wife is a prime example of someone capable of doing this so I do have first hand experience and I understand the meaning of empathy. I assume you have only just heard of it and that is your reason for being so defensive?

I know what it is, I just don't know the best way to describe it to those who have not experienced it.

In short, empathy is a very positive personality trait, which probably depends on certain neurons firing up in certain areas of the brain. I'm pretty certain that all humans posses these centres and are capable of using them, but it's very likely that they simply happen to be underdeveloped in people with low EQ, and more developed in people with high EQ.

It's a proven fact that some human's don't have any empathy at all, we aren't sure why, but thats just how it is.

Empathy is not like sympathy, where you feel sorry for another person's misfortune, but where you are able to imagine how it must feel to be that person in that particular situation. It's like visualisation on an emotional level. As it is like visualisation, then it doesn't matter where the sufferer is actually situated, provided the person offering the empathy is aware of the suffering person's predicament.

Astral projection and astral travel is the act of the 'spirit' leaving the physical body while it is asleep or while it's in a meditative trance, to either hover above it or to go sauntering wherever the mood takes it. It is an unproven concept, but again I emphasise, even if astral travel is possible, this is not the way empathy works.

Clinicians that practise empathy are neither asleep, nor in a trance when they do it, in fact on the contrary, they have to be fully awake and fully aware of what they are doing both for the sake of the sufferer and of themselves as it is not unusual for these people to get so emotionally involved with the suffering that they themselves can become damaged in the process.


Yes you described what empathy is, but it's still not something we understand, sure we may have felt it, and can understand how it feels, but describing it to someone who has never felt it is difficult.

Eek.. Please don't shoot me down. I understand the nature of this is a Science forum and speculative theories are probably not so welcomed. I read this post and associated threads and I have to say that even to a non-scientific mind, some of the assumptions here are cringeworthy.

Anyone who knows the absolute basics about OOBE's (astral projection / travelling) / NDE's etc... (as a worldwide reported phenomena throughout history) would not ever relate the core associations of this with empathy. Mirror cells are still being studied and although there may be some connections, it is preposterous to say that it is the same thing. The definition of astral projection in the original thread is severely flawed. Astral projection just very well could be the projection of an etheric body or our consciousness PHYSICALLY (though in an immeasurable form) outside of our bodies...

How is this in any way close to EMPATHY? (feeling strongly connected to another being and their feelings / senses etc)...

As someone who has regularly projected outside of their bodies (in my opinion and as yet not scientifically proven beyond doubt), I find the whole basis of this to be flawed.

It makes interesting reading, but I'd rather read something that was sound in it's conclusions... atleast proposing reasonable possibilities... Am I making sense? As I said, I'm not a scientist.

Absynnia

(by the way, enjoyed reading these posts anyhow)... mirror cells are very exciting... Anyone seen WHAT THE BLEEP DO WE KNOW yet? AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH?

:)

Astral projection just very well could be the projection of an etheric body or our consciousness PHYSICALLY (though in an immeasurable form) outside of our bodies...

How is this in any way close to EMPATHY? (feeling strongly connected to another being and their feelings / senses etc)...


Both require projection of consciousness outside of your physical body. How else can you feel an animals pain?




Eek.. Please don't shoot me down. I understand the nature of this is a Science forum and speculative theories are probably not so welcomed. I read this post and associated threads and I have to say that even to a non-scientific mind, some of the assumptions here are cringeworthy.

Anyone who knows the absolute basics about OOBE's (astral projection / travelling) / NDE's etc... (as a worldwide reported phenomena throughout history) would not ever relate the core associations of this with empathy. Mirror cells are still being studied and although there may be some connections, it is preposterous to say that it is the same thing. The definition of astral projection in the original thread is severely flawed. Astral projection just very well could be the projection of an etheric body or our consciousness PHYSICALLY (though in an immeasurable form) outside of our bodies...

How is this in any way close to EMPATHY? (feeling strongly connected to another being and their feelings / senses etc)...

As someone who has regularly projected outside of their bodies (in my opinion and as yet not scientifically proven beyond doubt), I find the whole basis of this to be flawed.

It makes interesting reading, but I'd rather read something that was sound in it's conclusions... atleast proposing reasonable possibilities... Am I making sense? As I said, I'm not a scientist.

Absynnia

(by the way, enjoyed reading these posts anyhow)... mirror cells are very exciting... Anyone seen WHAT THE BLEEP DO WE KNOW yet? AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH?

:)


So describe what astral projection is? You admit there is a connection between these two experiences , in that they both may be based on mirror neurons, but you don't go into much detail beyond that other than to say that empathy and astral projection are something different. They both seem to require mirror neurons, the ability to actually mentally project yourself out of your body. That's all I know.

I bring astral projection up with empathy, because science does a terrible job explaining either of these two mind states, but to millions of people, if not billions, these mindstates are real. Empathy, if you call it empathy, has no meaning because emotions have no meaning unless you can feel it or have experienced it. Astral travel has no meaning unless you have had an OBE. Near Death Experience has no meaning unless you have had an NDE.

So here is the challenge to you, the challenge is for you to describe and explain empathy, on the physical/material level. If you cannot define what it is, just saying "empathy is empathy", or just saying "it's a feeling" but being unable to describe it, it's equal to saying astral travel is real, it's only real to those who experience it to know what it is, and thats why I choose that precise word.

We could debate if empathy is even real, or even exists, or if it's just imagined, since not everyone is capable of it. Empathy, like Astral projection, is a worldwide reported phenomena.

Also, I'm not shooting you down, I'm simply asking people to make the case. It's not enough to tell me that there is no connection, the challenge is for you and others to think about it and then make a rational case why there is no connection. Mirror neurons are the only thing we know is real, to the materialist. Astral travel may be real also, whats the material basis?

Here are some urls http://www.psipog.net/activepsy/book4.html
Empathy is a limited type of telepathy, which is easier for most people to learn. It is the most common of all psychic abilities
http://www.seawolfsden.net/dc/TotemVision.htm
American Indians of legend talk of going into a trance and traveling in the guise of their totem animal, such as a hawk, and seeing through the totem's eyes. In fact, it is possible for a mystic through a special combination of Astral Travel, Possession and Animal Empathy, to see through the eyes of a chosen animal.

Your assertion that astral projection is a projection of the MIND outside of the physical body is an assumption. What do you define as MIND? Is it brain activity? Consciousness? The soul? An etheric body?

Most reports of OOBE's report a belief that it is a whole body of energy (like our physical body / a dream body?) that travels outside of it's physical/solid state.

You referred to empathy being a projection of MIND outside the body, but where is the scientific basis for this? Why are you ASSUMING that EMPATHY is a projection of the MIND OUTSIDE the physical form? Empathy is often described as an emotional process that most frequently takes place when we are in a state of physical wakefulness and it can also be defined as an INTERNAL process connected to brain activity / emotions (peptides - chemicals), mirror cells and our system of nerves and muscles.. You put me to the challenge to define astral projection, but that's something perhaps you yourself should have done properly before connecting the two concepts.

From my understanding, empathy is connected with EMOTIONAL MEMORY which is connected with MIRROR CELLS. We watch the old lady struggling with her shopping bags and our neurons mirror what we READ as her anguish and physical stress. Our neurons are obviously connected to the complex web of neuro-nets that connect memories with associations (mindsets / ideas etc). We recall a time when we have felt emotions associated with the activation of those cells (the look of anguish upon her face, her physical stress - her fragile arms struggling to deal with the weight) and we *feel* a combination of associated emotions all as closely connected wth the woman's experience as we can assume.

The more we experience in life, and make a conscious decision to try and be sensitive and understandimg of other people / animals / beings... the more connected we will most likely feel to other beings / one another etc.. this is empathy. :m: No one can truly walk in another's shoes... we can just try to imagine through emotional memory.

As for astral projection... look if you're really interested, try researching the topic. Joe H. Slate Ph.D. has written a number of helpful books and papers on the field. He has worked extensively in an effort to find scientific connections / explanations for the phenomena. I must say that in all my years researching OOBE's and reading the vast amounts of literature on the topic, not once has empathy been associated with this phenomena.

Did you not think of emotional memory? :eek:If I get some time l8r, I'll see if I can source some stuff for you on the topic that can define more clearly the difference (or atleast a clearer def. of OOBE's)... :)

OOBE

I'm providing the following information simply for your reference - not to enter into a debate about scientific evidence for astral projection. I am very interested in that area, but from my research scientists are just as faraway in proving that ASTRAL PROJECTION is REAL as they are to proving the existence of GOD. We may believe that we leave our bodies (and I am not alone in this conviction / personal truth), but as it concerns the very nature of what many define as our SOULS leaving our PHYSICAL bodies, it makes the nature of finding empirical evidence very challenging at best. Perhaps quantam theory will bring home some more pieces of the puzzle for us to play with...

Out-of-Body-Experiences "also known as soul travel and astral projection, are phenomena in which the non-physical or astral body literally disengages from the physical body and, in that temporary etheric state , consciously experiences other physical realities or distant astral planes."

Consciousness in this respect is often defined as the product of the indestructable essence of the soul, with its own spiritual genesis and its own unique spiritual identity (NON-SCIENTIFIC). The physical body, including the brain exists as simply a temporary, corporeal temple of the infinite spirit.

OOBE's in the laboratory:

"Efforts to photograph the astral body in its projected state have been only marginally successful.. Electrophotography has been used with greater success (Kirlian photography) or Corona discharge photography. (debatable science -though not psuedo)" as the observer must stlll interpret what they are seeing.

Remote image phenomena has occurred during these experiments (again: open to interpretation and no closer to drawing accurate scientific conclusions).

Certain characteristics of the sleep state appear particularly conducive to OOBE's. With the phsycial body at rest, the biological constraints that could inhibit astral travel are relaxed. (do some research into alpha / delta / theta brain wave patterns).. Many Eastern mystics believe that we have electrical energy centres in our bodies and that during certain altered states of consciousness (many accessible to the uninitiated during sleep) can literally charge up like a battery (chakras). These brain wave activities are scientifically observable. The mystics believe that during this 'charged' state the etheric body / consciousness / the soul etc. is able to move through the physical form of the body whilst still being connected to it. In fact many people who feel they have experienced astral projection report seeing a silver cord connected to their physical body.

Most of this is virtually impossible to PROVE right now, whereas Empathy as a process can not only be reported but linked to biologically / physically observable data (chemical / emotional responses and nervous system activation).

I hope this information is in any way helpful to your continued research in this area. It is so interesting. Don't give up your quest for understanding. It is just fascinating stuff. I would love science to bring home some real evidence about the nature of our universe and how this relates to spirituality. In the meantime, we can only live by our own instinctual beliefs and observations... read, learn, question...

Aren't mirror cells fascinating too! I am a highschool drama and art teacher. We use empathy a lot in our work. The students are fascinated when I tell them about mirror cells and I hope that they too, continue to look into it and find out more. I don't talk about astral projection as much however. It is something that I believe I have experienced from a very young age and I have my own ongoing quest to find out more and more about this and related areas. A great film (with lots of theories and different ideas is WHAT THE BLEEP DO WE KNOW).. It is not meant to provide hard facts, but it is very interesting. It doesn't go so much into OOBE's..

Although all of this is highly fascinating... I feel most scientists and people right now should be concerned about our planet.. It is she who needs the vigour and the protection.. We seem to be in the red so to speak and it's time that we really used our hearts, souls, minds (brains haha) and hands to come up with ways to heal her.

Yours,

Absynnia

Your assertion that astral projection is a projection of the MIND outside of the physical body is an assumption. What do you define as MIND? Is it brain activity? Consciousness? The soul? An etheric body?

Most reports of OOBE's report a belief that it is a whole body of energy (like our physical body / a dream body?) that travels outside of it's physical/solid state.

You referred to empathy being a projection of MIND outside the body, but where is the scientific basis for this? Why are you ASSUMING that EMPATHY is a projection of the MIND OUTSIDE the physical form? Empathy is often described as an emotional process that most frequently takes place when we are in a state of physical wakefulness and it can also be defined as an INTERNAL process connected to brain activity / emotions (peptides - chemicals), mirror cells and our system of nerves and muscles.. You put me to the challenge to define astral projection, but that's something perhaps you yourself should have done properly before connecting the two concepts.

From my understanding, empathy is connected with EMOTIONAL MEMORY which is connected with MIRROR CELLS. We watch the old lady struggling with her shopping bags and our neurons mirror what we READ as her anguish and physical stress. Our neurons are obviously connected to the complex web of neuro-nets that connect memories with associations (mindsets / ideas etc). We recall a time when we have felt emotions associated with the activation of those cells (the look of anguish upon her face, her physical stress - her fragile arms struggling to deal with the weight) and we *feel* a combination of associated emotions all as closely connected wth the woman's experience as we can assume.

If I were to tell you that I'm injured, sick, and need help, and I tell you this through a letter, you have no clue what I look like, or anything about me, only that I need help, would you give me charity? I think the case can be made that empathy can just as easily be felt in words as in pictures, as you can feel empathy by reading a good story, and you can give to charity just by recieving a properly worded letter. Now you can say you feel no empathy for those you cannot see in person, but this is an ability you can develop, as many people do feel empathy for people they have never seen or met. Example, do you feel empathy for children suffering in the third world who you have never met and cannot even communicate with in english?

The more we experience in life, and make a conscious decision to try and be sensitive and understandimg of other people / animals / beings... the more connected we will most likely feel to other beings / one another etc.. this is empathy. :m: No one can truly walk in another's shoes... we can just try to imagine through emotional memory.

I know you know exactly what it is, because you describe empathy perfectly. My experience with it, it's both a gift and a curse, you get to feel the pain of the world, the misery of the world, and right now the world is sick. Empathy can make a person depressed. Did you feel hurricane Katrina? or even just the fact that so many people, billions of them, are suffering for no reason?

As for astral projection... look if you're really interested, try researching the topic. Joe H. Slate Ph.D. has written a number of helpful books and papers on the field. He has worked extensively in an effort to find scientific connections / explanations for the phenomena. I must say that in all my years researching OOBE's and reading the vast amounts of literature on the topic, not once has empathy been associated with this phenomena.

I know what astral projection is, I'm actually very knowledgeable about the subject, I just wanted to invite you to discuss it with me, it's debate. I've actually done astral projection. I know there is an emotional projection of some sort involved, but I don't know how to describe it to anyone who has not felt it.

Did you not think of emotional memory? :eek:If I get some time l8r, I'll see if I can source some stuff for you on the topic that can define more clearly the difference (or atleast a clearer def. of OOBE's)... :)

I understand, I do think there may be a connection, but I can't prove it, and I'm not a neuro-scientist. The connection I think is mirror neurons. I think astral projection, it's real, but it's also based on neurons, and likely requires physical triggers in the brain to be activated to allow a person to get into that state of mind. There are drugs which can do this to anyone, even to people who arent naturals, such as salvia divinorum. If you look at Erowid, you'll see salvia, and salvia is dangerous, it's no joke, so please don't try it, but I can say it will 100% for sure give anyone an out of body experience. There is a chemical trigger, and so whatever causes this mindstate is a physical trigger, and this is why I say emotional states might also act as a chemical trigger, It's speculation I admit, so don't take it as fact or seriously.

OOBE

I'm providing the following information simply for your reference - not to enter into a debate about scientific evidence for astral projection. I am very interested in that area, but from my research scientists are just as faraway in proving that ASTRAL PROJECTION is REAL as they are to proving the existence of GOD. We may believe that we leave our bodies (and I am not alone in this conviction / personal truth), but as it concerns the very nature of what many define as our SOULS leaving our PHYSICAL bodies, it makes the nature of finding empirical evidence very challenging at best. Perhaps quantam theory will bring home some more pieces of the puzzle for us to play with...

Out-of-Body-Experiences "also known as soul travel and astral projection, are phenomena in which the non-physical or astral body literally disengages from the physical body and, in that temporary etheric state , consciously experiences other physical realities or distant astral planes."

Consciousness in this respect is often defined as the product of the indestructable essence of the soul, with its own spiritual genesis and its own unique spiritual identity (NON-SCIENTIFIC). The physical body, including the brain exists as simply a temporary, corporeal temple of the infinite spirit.

OOBE's in the laboratory:

"Efforts to photograph the astral body in its projected state have been only marginally successful.. Electrophotography has been used with greater success (Kirlian photography) or Corona discharge photography. (debatable science -though not psuedo)" as the observer must stlll interpret what they are seeing.

Remote image phenomena has occurred during these experiments (again: open to interpretation and no closer to drawing accurate scientific conclusions).

Certain characteristics of the sleep state appear particularly conducive to OOBE's. With the phsycial body at rest, the biological constraints that could inhibit astral travel are relaxed. (do some research into alpha / delta / theta brain wave patterns).. Many Eastern mystics believe that we have electrical energy centres in our bodies and that during certain altered states of consciousness (many accessible to the uninitiated during sleep) can literally charge up like a battery (chakras). These brain wave activities are scientifically observable. The mystics believe that during this 'charged' state the etheric body / consciousness / the soul etc. is able to move through the physical form of the body whilst still being connected to it. In fact many people who feel they have experienced astral projection report seeing a silver cord connected to their physical body.

Most of this is virtually impossible to PROVE right now, whereas Empathy as a process can not only be reported but linked to biologically / physically observable data (chemical / emotional responses and nervous system activation).

I hope this information is in any way helpful to your continued research in this area. It is so interesting. Don't give up your quest for understanding. It is just fascinating stuff. I would love science to bring home some real evidence about the nature of our universe and how this relates to spirituality. In the meantime, we can only live by our own instinctual beliefs and observations... read, learn, question...

Aren't mirror cells fascinating too! I am a highschool drama and art teacher. We use empathy a lot in our work. The students are fascinated when I tell them about mirror cells and I hope that they too, continue to look into it and find out more. I don't talk about astral projection as much however. It is something that I believe I have experienced from a very young age and I have my own ongoing quest to find out more and more about this and related areas. A great film (with lots of theories and different ideas is WHAT THE BLEEP DO WE KNOW).. It is not meant to provide hard facts, but it is very interesting. It doesn't go so much into OOBE's..

Although all of this is highly fascinating... I feel most scientists and people right now should be concerned about our planet.. It is she who needs the vigour and the protection.. We seem to be in the red so to speak and it's time that we really used our hearts, souls, minds (brains haha) and hands to come up with ways to heal her.

Yours,

Absynnia

I'm a philosophy major, I'm spiritual by nature, sadly, empathy is not something which can be taught. The science of it will never really make much sense, but in general, there are many spiritual or philosopical ideas on these subjects. If any of your students show interest, then it's best to focus on the philosophy and spirituality, because the science of it, for highschool students, won't make any sense and it won't be practical.


Welcome to the forum, you are intelligent and you hold your own in debates.

:)

Did you watch "WHAT THE BLEEP DO WE KNOW?"

I don't really know how to respond... there seems no debate here... I agree that empathy needn't be triggered by being directly infront of a physical being.. that by mental processes (reading your letter for example) and connecting my own emotional associations (subjective) with that, I can trigger emotional memories of times when I have felt some degree (perhaps to a much lesser extent) of hardship / hunger / sadness...

I still do not see that this is a projection of mind outside of the body... We are reading signs and interpreting them according to our own experiences. As everyone's experiences / associations (neuro-nets) are bound to be different, we will all experience different levels of empathy / responses to the same stimulus (eg. all reading your letter)...

Astral projection on the other hand - yes I know about the drugs that claim to provide the user with sensations of being out of their bodies. Many people will testify to certain drugs bringing about that state of "BEING"... Peyote is one drug used by the ancients that has the same effects.

I think where you and I can connect our ideas (unify somehow) is that science has for a long time now sought to categorise and separate (box in) phenomena / concepts and experiences. We are so conditioned to think in this way, that it can be a challenge to break down those mental bars..

Many will separate the concept of an etheric / spiritual body leaving the physical body from physiological events. I too, am no neuro-scientist, or scientist at all.

I can only (as I stated ) propose my own theories (which I rarely share, since they are merely that "theories" / "instinctual beliefs" etc)... I believe (as Plato did) that everything exists on a fundamental etheric level or dimension and that ALL solid matter including our own physical selves are the tanglible by-product of that blueprint.

Everything that science finds / discovers in this by-product and it's processes, (I believe) is firstly animated by consciousness.

Empirical scientists shake their heads at what they perceive to be my "new age"(sic /eeuk) assertions / beliefs... quantam theorists may not be so quick to judge however.

:)

connecting?

:)

Did you watch "WHAT THE BLEEP DO WE KNOW?"

I don't really know how to respond... there seems no debate here... I agree that empathy needn't be triggered by being directly infront of a physical being.. that by mental processes (reading your letter for example) and connecting my own emotional associations (subjective) with that, I can trigger emotional memories of times when I have felt some degree (perhaps to a much lesser extent) of hardship / hunger / sadness...

I still do not see that this is a projection of mind outside of the body... We are reading signs and interpreting them according to our own experiences. As everyone's experiences / associations (neuro-nets) are bound to be different, we will all experience different levels of empathy / responses to the same stimulus (eg. all reading your letter)...

Astral projection on the other hand - yes I know about the drugs that claim to provide the user with sensations of being out of their bodies. Many people will testify to certain drugs bringing about that state of "BEING"... Peyote is one drug used by the ancients that has the same effects.

I think where you and I can connect our ideas (unify somehow) is that science has for a long time now sought to categorise and separate (box in) phenomena / concepts and experiences. We are so conditioned to think in this way, that it can be a challenge to break down those mental bars..

Many will separate the concept of an etheric / spiritual body leaving the physical body from physiological events. I too, am no neuro-scientist, or scientist at all.

I can only (as I stated ) propose my own theories (which I rarely share, since they are merely that "theories" / "instinctual beliefs" etc)... I believe (as Plato did) that everything exists on a fundamental etheric level or dimension and that ALL solid matter including our own physical selves are the tanglible by-product of that blueprint.

Everything that science finds / discovers in this by-product and it's processes, (I believe) is firstly animated by consciousness.

Empirical scientists shake their heads at what they perceive to be my "new age"(sic /eeuk) assertions / beliefs... quantam theorists may not be so quick to judge however.

:)

connecting?


WHAT THE BLEEP DO WE KNOW?

Sorry, never heard of it, but since you highlighted it for me, I'm going to see if it's on Google Video.

Google Video is great, and Google is great, simply type in a random thought, and out pops random answers, and it's just constant input output. The fun thing is, you can learn all about this on Google. But if you want someone to discuss philosophy or spiritual matters with, I'm one of the people here who are focused on this. Theory of Relativity is also interested in these things, you may want to check out her posts.

The key to this forum is to ask big questions, it's the kinda place where you can ask any big question, and end up with more questions, because the average IQ here seems fairly high.

thank you for your welcome. i've enjoyed our discussion! i hope you enjoy "What the bleep do we know"... I have a feeling you'll really like it :)

have a great day

absynnia

Mirror neurons, known to exist in humans and in macaque monkeys, activate when an action is observed, and also when it is performed. Now new research reveals that there are mirror neurons in humans that fire when sounds are heard. In other words, if you hear the noise of someone eating an apple, some of the same neurons fire as when you eat the apple yourself.

So-called auditory mirror neurons were known only in macaques. To determine if they exist in humans Valeria Gazzola, at the school of behavioural and cognitive neurosciences neuroimaging centre at the University of Groningen, the Netherlands, and colleagues, put 16 volunteers into functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) scanners and observed their brains as they were played different noises.

The volunteers heard noises such as a sheet of paper being torn, or of someone crunching potato chips. Then the same subjects were scanned again, this time whilst tearing a piece of paper, or eating potato chips.
Vicarious crunching

“We combined the data from listening and execution and looked to see if the activity in the brain overlaps,” says Gazzola’s colleague Christian Keysers, also at the University of Groningen. Sure enough, it did overlap. Motor neurons associated with mouth actions (crunching) and hand actions (ripping) were activated in both cases.

The overlap occurred in areas of the brain such as the bilateral temporal gyrus and the superior temporal sulcus.

“The mirror system is a particular form of Pavlovian association,” says Keysers, referring to the classic behavioural experiments where dogs were trained to associate food with the noise of a bell. “Each time you crunch a potato chip you hear yourself crunching the chip, and now when you hear someone else crunching it activates your own action neurons.”
Spectrum of difference

The phenomenon has been exploited by advertisers for years – think of the Coca-cola commercials comprising of just the noise of a bottle of Coke being opened, the fizz of the drink and the sound of the drinking. And intriguingly, subjects in the study who scored higher in empathy tests also showed higher levels of mirror neuron activation.

Differences in empathy scores and mirror neuron activity have been observed between autistic and non-autistic people, says Keysers, but this is the first time a spectrum of difference has been found in non-autistic people. “How empathetic we are seems to be related to how strongly our mirror neuron system is activated,” he says.


Okay, so where do you want to go from here? I see nothing new in this study that we haven't already known for over twenty years know. I find the authors' new use of the term "mirror neurons" as being very shallow because it does not tie into any biology labelled terms that describe the same neurons and this makes their article rather superficial - like they're saying "ah hah" we developed a new term in psychology. They could be much more scientific rather than being just hypothetical but the reality is that they don't know enough to do so!

I'm new in forum, I'm from Brazil and my English is not very good, I hope you understand what I trying to say.

I'm studied a lot of time about OBE and Near Death Experience and now I have no doubt about the essence of these experiences, the responsibility for this is only the brain, no one can leave the body and return to it, so if OBE and NDE is brain phenomena, what TimeTraveler think's makes sense.

The Astral Travel I know by experience, is an really fantastic experience, if doing with conscience, everything occurs like in real life, every sensation, like smell, vision, touch, everything is like in the real world, so is easy to make a great confusion, but a lot of things make me know this is only one brain creation that use the power of unconscious and subconscious and the memory of our senses, giving a very strong perception of reality, is like one dream with senses perceptions and some conscience. The near death experience occurs every time with living people, the real death is not clinical, if the heart stop, the life still existing until the brain death. NDE can start with chemical substances like Ketamine (Anesthetic), in World War 2, a lot of soldiers with no great damage, experienced this phenomena with all symptoms commonly related in this case, like, see one light, tunnel, etc. and the responsibility for this was Ketamine so is easy to understand than NDE have close links with chemical and physical reactions in brain. I can talk about it later.

The people that links the Astral Travel or related things with quantum physics have one crazy interpretation, I tell it because there's no one single evidence about the soul outside the body, and if this thing is real, is very easy to demonstrate, but every serious studies have the same result, the fail, so if the phenomena no exists then every explanation is crazy, so how can one thing have one explanation if this thing no exists? First of all the believers need to prove the phenomena existence like they say that it is, and is very easy to demonstrate, if anyone needs some suggestion to prove Astral Travel I can tell, there's no need of instrumentation or spiritual forces, is easy.

Why what TimeTraveler said makes sense? If we have neurons that can activate our sensitive memory, why this neurons can't be used by our Unconscious (Autonomous Nervous System) to active this memory? In our dreams is not rare see things, objects, people, places that we can't remember saw before, so is clear to suppose than smell, vision, touch, sounds, taste can also be simulated by brain and at this time we may be in one very strong experience like Astral Travel that we can't distinguish from reality.

Astral Travel is a brain experience nothing more.

Please, excuse my poor English.

Best Regards.

:)

Did you watch "WHAT THE BLEEP DO WE KNOW?"

I don't really know how to respond... there seems no debate here... I agree that empathy needn't be triggered by being directly infront of a physical being.. that by mental processes (reading your letter for example) and connecting my own emotional associations (subjective) with that, I can trigger emotional memories of times when I have felt some degree (perhaps to a much lesser extent) of hardship / hunger / sadness...

I still do not see that this is a projection of mind outside of the body... We are reading signs and interpreting them according to our own experiences. As everyone's experiences / associations (neuro-nets) are bound to be different, we will all experience different levels of empathy / responses to the same stimulus (eg. all reading your letter)...

Astral projection on the other hand - yes I know about the drugs that claim to provide the user with sensations of being out of their bodies. Many people will testify to certain drugs bringing about that state of "BEING"... Peyote is one drug used by the ancients that has the same effects.

I think where you and I can connect our ideas (unify somehow) is that science has for a long time now sought to categorise and separate (box in) phenomena / concepts and experiences. We are so conditioned to think in this way, that it can be a challenge to break down those mental bars..

Many will separate the concept of an etheric / spiritual body leaving the physical body from physiological events. I too, am no neuro-scientist, or scientist at all.

I can only (as I stated ) propose my own theories (which I rarely share, since they are merely that "theories" / "instinctual beliefs" etc)... I believe (as Plato did) that everything exists on a fundamental etheric level or dimension and that ALL solid matter including our own physical selves are the tanglible by-product of that blueprint.

Everything that science finds / discovers in this by-product and it's processes, (I believe) is firstly animated by consciousness.

Empirical scientists shake their heads at what they perceive to be my "new age"(sic /eeuk) assertions / beliefs... quantam theorists may not be so quick to judge however.

:)

connecting?

In this fiction book I'm reading, an empathic can feel a piece of object and ascertain its date, where its been, who its touched, and the experiences of the people who touched it (pun not intended "Gaydo" (codename for a bastard I knew one time)). According to this character, this ability is developed by the discipline of psychometry (lol). That concludes my lesson.

Peace out. Stay true to the crew. Much love,
Nick (or "Nicky boy" as friends say)

Threads like this are one reason why some of the more knowledgeable people have stopped coming to this forum.

SciForums provides Pseudo Science and Parapsychology forums for the crack pots. This thread does not belong in a science forum.

Hi Dinossaurs

Why not?

In a science forum, argument is an important tool, if you think this thread is outside science (I don't think so), please give some reason to your opinion, or what are you said has no objective.

If more knowledgeable people have stopped coming to this forum like you said, in your opinion, if you still here is because you are less knowledgeable people?

Do you know what science is? People like Galileu Galileu, Thomas Edison etc was less knowledgeable people? I think you know why I'm asking it.

The science happily, is not anyone property, and can come from any people, the history show it, you can not tell than what you can't understand is not science without arguments, maybe you are correct, maybe you are wrong, but no one is obligated to believe in you only because you want it.

Please excuse my poor english.

Best Regards.