I've noticed that the dichotomy in the discussions of education has been
indoctrination vs. critical thinking.

But however much the latter is an improvement over the former in most contexts...

both are reactive.

Someone else asserts that this or that is the truth or is impossible
and then you react either by 1) believing them or 2) trying to ascertain if their arguements are valid, sound or not.

In other words, you will not really be coming up with anything new. Other people may and then you can judge what they came up with. A useful skill, but one amongst many.

This leaves out creativity. How much education actually inspired/es creativity?
How much education tries to help people understand how you come up with something new? How much education or how many educators help connect interest, need and desire to exploration and discovery and/or creation?

Critical thinking is also a limited concept. It tends to focus on statement analysis, argument structure, assertion, logic.....words.

Learning by doing is also left out of this dichotomy.

Let's think for a moment about the primary thing a school teaches a child every and no one ever has to say it....

"Learning and participating in society are separate activities."
or
"Learning and doing are separate activities"
The latter needs its own building away from those who do.

The whole apprenticeship idea absent from most education, as one example of what is lost.

Learning is split off from bodies that interact with substance - except for the very limited instance in some of the natural sciences, the occasional field trip and gym.

Learning is split off from doing.

Learning is being a receiver.


(for those who think I showed my true colors when said that indoctrination might not be improved upon by critical thinking in some circumstances, I use the example of driver's ed. Sometimes the best thing is to get instructions and try them out. Of course one should be encouraged to ask questions when one does not understand in these situations, but a long discussion about the possibility of 1030 and 230 actually being the better positions for the hands on the steering wheel and arguments about the best way to test this might be counterproductive, dare I say it, if the actual common bond is getting most of the people driving in the near future.)

One thing I've noticed. "Critical thinking" is now a mainstream term. Which means it doesn't mean whatever it meant before. Because the mainstream screws everything up. Even critical thinking.

I see it on job descriptions. I've even been asked about it in job interviews and seen the interviewers jaw drop when I gave a classic example of whistle blowing on the company you work for, as a result of the critical thinking process. I wonder if they are still asking for that with candidates...

One thing I've noticed. "Critical thinking" is now a mainstream term. Which means it doesn't mean whatever it meant before. Because the mainstream screws everything up. Even critical thinking.

I see it on job descriptions. I've even been asked about it in job interviews and seen the interviewers jaw drop when I gave a classic example of whistle blowing on the company you work for, as a result of the critical thinking process. I wonder if they are still asking for that with candidates...
Perhaps with that attitude you also experienced a certain reluctance on teachers' parts in relation to your critical thinking.

Define critical thinking. Define indoctrination.

My understanding is that critical thinking is a skill that is learned/taught.

Indoctrination is a set of beliefs you are equipped with before critical thinking is learned.

I've noticed that the dichotomy in the discussions of education has been indoctrination vs. critical thinking.
.........
In other words, you will not really be coming up with anything new. That's why we call it education.

That's why we call it education.Well if we go back to the roots out the word we can have a more flexible idea of what education means. 'to bring out' which is rather different from the the general philosophy of education out there which is 'to put in'.

One could bring out the creativity, logical and memory capablities of the child. One could bring out abilities and interests in a variety of 'doings'.

Graduate education often manages to see students as also producers: as individuals who can take in, but who can also be creative.

And obviously I think you are educated in both the 'taking in' and 'being brought out' senses when one does and creates and has one's own specific interests, desires and 'bents' involved and encouraged.

Define critical thinking. BS detection on a conscious level so it can be explained in specific cases. Define indoctrination.Where ideas are inserted into the brain and the receiver's reactions are good if they offer no resistance and bad if they offer anything that might be seen as resistance.

My understanding is that critical thinking is a skill that is learned/taught.I think you can also have native abilities.

Indoctrination is a set of beliefs you are equipped with before critical thinking is learned.I don't think it has to be worked out so neatly. Also I think there are environments that have less indoctrination than others. And children who are less susceptible.

Well if we go back to the roots out the word we can have a more flexible idea of what education means. 'to bring out' .Are you sure? I understood the word was derived from the Latin educare, to rear, or bring up (not bring out) young children or animals. I will grant you a close similarity with educere, which means lead out and therefore is closer to your usage of bring out. Nevertheless it is not the same.

If we then look at the usage of the word in English, we find the first sense are very much about bringing up: thus The Oxford English dictionary has as its initial definitions "the process of nourishing or rearing a child, or young person, or animal; the process of bringing up (young persons); the manner in which a person has been brought up.

I am not disputing what education perhaps ought to be, only querying whther that meaning is indeed present in the roots of the word.

going back to your original post I found several statements that did not match my experience of education. For example you seem to be saying that education involves little opportunity for learning by doing. I may have misunderstood you. My education in a comprehensive public school was replete with 'learning by doing'.

My etymological dictionary mentions both your meanings and the one I mentions. But even bringing up is not to put it.

Nourishing is also broad enough to cover creative activities.

In my education and in my teaching the kids were mostly at their desks. So the doing was limited to what one could do while sitting facing forward at a desk. Often listening and taking notes with an occasional field trip to the blackboard.

Math certain works in such a situation. But, on the other hand, math could be integrated into other doing activities 'building' 'gardening' and so on. IOW math could be a part of real life problem solving and kids could do it. Rather than doing word problems that simulate real life.

I had a number of years of biology, in my science focused high school, and we never left the room once. Ie. we never saw a living organism in situ. We never did things that biologists tend to do other than look through a microscope and a couple of dissections.

In social studies we did do a couple of field trips, but give the opportunities of a large city for interacting more directly with those who have been involved in history - interviews, for example - or engaging in all sorts of current events activities directly, we did very little learning by doing. We did learning by listening, taking notes and later regurgitating.

In English I had two somewhat creative teachers. The odd thing was the one who did come up with the most interesting and inspiring doing exercises and projects for language use was a very scary woman. But these two teachers were the exception.

And my schools had the reputation for being among the top not just in the city but in the country, as far as public schools go.

edit: ah, I see you are correct educere is a related word, but nevertheless each word begins with 'e' indicating an outward process.

In any case....
what was some of your learning by doing?