Earthquake: Coincidence or a Corporate Oil Tragedy?

Discussion in 'Earth Science' started by duendy, Jan 4, 2005.

  1. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    6,585
    I first came across the article i will refer you to at another forum.
    What the gist of it is is that the US military has been using under-sea sonar......in this case to search for oil.
    In places where this has happened there has been coincidental occurances of beached whales and dolphins - as sonar is extremely dangerous for them, hence them beaching and dying in agony!--and earthquakes.
    So the author is openly inquiring about this
    now, i have tried to download the site but it's too complex for my system, so i could n't check if the url works. the way the other dude presented it at the other forum was weird, but if you download the main url and look for the main title, or just google the title you will find it

    'Earthquake: Coincidence or a Corporate Oil Tragedy?'
    www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?media_id=3D10211&fcategory_desc=3DEnvironment
     
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  3. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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  5. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    I was going to write a detailed assessment of the link, but a three word summary will do: ignorant and assinine.
     
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  7. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    Well, first, thanks for linking it up mo better than i managed, but am a bit confused about your reponse to the article itself

    The person DOEs right from the beginning confess he isn't an expert on what he is addressing, but is simply questioning the COINCIDENCE of whale and dolphin beachings--a truly AWAFUL even in itelf!! i hope you gree?--and earthquakes happening in the same region

    So why sahould poijnting our attention to this be called 'ignorant' and 'like an ass'?

    Are you, for example, not aware what the powers that be get up to, overtly and covertly?
    Are you not aware, for example, the real reasons for the illegal war in Iraq?
    IF so, then is it much to stretch the imagination to assume they would go to other lengths to find oil also?
     
  8. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    9,232
    As with all short responses I can see mine could be open to several interpretations. Let me try to explain my characterisation of the article as ignorant and assanine.

    You are quite correct that the author warns us from the outset that he is not an expert. Why then is he broaching the subject at all? Wild speculation is one thing on, for example, a forum such as this. It seems to me it is quite another matter when it is practiced by journalists. What bothers me most isn't his declared area of ignorance - earthquakes and seismic prospecting - but his undeclared ignorance of the scientific method, which ignorance seems too exude from much of his article.

    The association between sonar and the beachings of certain species of cetaceans looks quite convincing; I would be surprised if later research invalidated this. The seismic connection is less clear; certainly the mechanism would have to be different, but I wouldn't rule it out.

    But he then makes an amazing link between beachings in Australasia, possible seismic work and an 8.1 magnitude quake in the area.

    First, correllation does not equal causation.
    Second, there is no correlation. Examine, in detail where seismic prospecting occurs. Compare it with where earthquakes occur. The two don't match.
    Third, the energy released by seismic prospecting is orders of magnitude less than that associated with storms and tidal effects.
    In fact, I retract the adjective assinine for the article; it is just silly. (But interesting of its kind, so thank you for the post.)

    Finally, I am somewhat perplexed as to your "is it much to stretch the imagination to assume they would go to other lengths to find oil also?"
    What lengths? Seismic exploration has been a mainstay of oil exploration (and geophysical research) for decades. It takes place very openly. It is conducted by third parties on behalf of oil companies and very occasionally governments. What is there to conceal? What lengths are they going to?
     
  9. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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    4,955
    And we have Islamic authorities blaming it on the west. In Russell's An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish, he said this about self importance and natural disasters:

    One of the odd effects of the importance which each of us attaches to himself, is that we tend to imagine our own good or evil fortune to be the purpose of other people's actions. I you pass in a train a field containing grazing cows, you ma sometimes see them running away in terror as the train passes. The cow, if it were a metaphysician, would argue: 'Everything in my own desires and hopes and fears has reference to myself; hence by induction I conclude that everything in the universe has reference to myself. This noisy train, therefore, intends to do me either good or evil. I cannot suppose that it intends to do me good, since it comes in such a terrifying form, and therefore, as a prudent cow, I shall endeavor to escape from it.' If you were to explain to this metaphysical ruminant that the train has no intention of leaving the rails, and is totally indifferent to the fate of the cow, the poor beast would be bewildered by anything so unnatural. The train that wishes her neither well nor ill would seem more cold and more abysmally horrifying than a train that wished her ill. Just this has happened with human beings. The course of nature brings them sometimes good fortune, sometimes evil. They cannot believe that this happens by accident. The cow, having known of a companion which had strayed on to the railway line and been killed by a train, would pursue her philosophical reflections, if she were endowed with that moderate degree of intelligence that characterizes most human beings, to the point of concluding that the unfortunate cow had been punished for sin by the god of the railway.

    It really is just as simple as that. Just as the next large object that happens to slam into this planet won't have anything to do with humans in any way, even though it might be the cause of our extermination.
     
  10. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    6,585
    Repo man....As much sa i love cows, and have nothing against them, please dont equate what i have presented with the act of a cow running away from a train (i also am wondering if you--being so familiar with the technology of trains could build one?).
    I AM VERY aware that natrual dstasters happen. I am NOt saying that they cant and thus jump to the nearest man-made possibility. What i am doing is presenting a scenario that needs being presented.
    In order to to take it seriously--and not just unknowingly dismiss it--one must first be aware of what the powers that be are capable of. what they have gotten up to, and are up to. If you hold the naive idea that they really really mean us--the people-well, then as they say 'stay as sweet as you are'.
    The danger is NOt taking such conincidences seriously; belieiving what mainstream media tell you, and worshipping 'science' no matter what

    this doesn't mean to say i BELIEVe that article. but i feel i am as openminded as the dude who writ it, and you and Ophiolite seems to be. I.e., that you have dismissed it with a wave of a hand
     
  11. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    6,585
    Are you suggesting that the equipment and power of thier technology has stayed the SAMe oever the "decades"? has your MOBILE phone--if you have one--stayed the same?...etc etc
     
  12. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    9,232
    Duendy could you tidy up your post please, so that your responses are separated from mine.
    I can worrk out which is which, but others might have difficulty.
    In the meantime I will address one question: "Are you a scientist and do you soecialize in this field?"
    Yes, and if you mean specialise (rather than socialise), and you mean oil exploration, yes too.

    OK, a second one also: You ask "Are you suggesting that the equipment and power of thier technology has stayed the SAMe over the "decades"?
    Here you are refering to the oil companies, or more precisely the seismic companies. Of course there has been an increase in power, although most of this has been computer processing power and software sophistication rather than sonic power. That is however irrelevant: I repeat, and will continue to repeat until you offer contrary evidence, the energy expended by these techniques is orders of magnitude less than that released in storms or by tidal effects. There is no way in which it could trigger an earthquake..
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2005
  13. marv Just a dumb hillbilly... Registered Senior Member

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    743
    Bad, cherry-picking logic to connect those "activities" with those "events".

    Low frequency, high energy "sonar" is used world-wide for other than oil exploration. I'll say no more on that topic, except that whale beachings have been observed world-wide for decades; not just in conjunction with what happened in South Asia.

    Let's see, now. Other possible causes are:
    • God is mad at the muslims,
    • Allah is mad at the Christians,
    • Buddah is mad at everybody,
    • Nature is getting even,
    • Bush was re-elected,
    • The US tested a nuclear device in the area,
    • Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Maybe it was the India plate subducting the Burma plate. S'pose that might be it? And maybe the high casualty numbers are the fault of the affected countries for lacking foresight and warning devices.
     
  14. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    6,585
    look.....errr, put it this way. look at it from this angle for a moment:
    in the history of ideas, NEW ideas or things pointed out have been ridiculed--like you'll are doing here regarding that article, etc. I amm just pointing you to this cause when a person DOEs ridicule, it MEANs you stop inveistigating, or your curiousity becomes
    stopped

    I, on the other hand don't do that. i read it, and i am curious. if i just go on like you are then likewise i just dismiss it off hand

    for example i am wondering where chaos theory fits into this? as we know it is a fairly new theory right, and part of it...a polular notion is that a 'butterfly's wings can cause an effect in the weather system' or something like that

    now, in order to understand my passion about this subject, regarding what they are doing under the sea, is what they are doing to sea creatures. Seriously affecting them through their use of sonar. That alone is wrong. So like wise, if THAt is wrong which it is, what i am inquiring is that misused technology ALSO doing.
    As the article said, the coincidences of beached sea mammals and earthquakes?

    how do you actually KNOW there is no connection? how can you be so sure? which is not me suggesting I KNOW!
     
  15. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    9,232
    Your concern for sea life is admirable. (That's not sarcasm, I share the concern.)
    If there were a connection we should be seeing earthquakes routinely occuring as a consequence of seismic exploration.
    I read the article with an open mind. I assessed the probabilities with an open mind. i reached a conclusion based upon scientific knowledge and scientific training.

    Look - two points for you to consider - with an open mind.

    You are quite right in a certain way. A tiny, tiny shock like a sonic pulse, could trigger an earthquake. Trigger. Initiate an earthquake that was already going to happen in two seconds time and bring it forward by those two seconds. That's all.

    Second point. If you are genuinely concerned about marine life then stop these pathetic pursuits of coincidental nonsense now! I am sick to my eye teeth of trying to convince skeptics of the genuine damage that is done. And why is it so difficult? Because they can turn round and point to "tree hugging loonies" like you and discussions such as this one and say "why should we believe anything this nutter says". You are screwng up marine life with your attitude. Please stop it.. .
     
  16. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    6,585
    D...how fukin dare you. the NERVE of you. You fool.
    I care as much for marine wildlife as you do. And i dont see how my bringing up this discussion makes any difference to my concern, which also COULD--if looked at reasonably (are you familiar with doing that?)--probably included people.
    Just because you cannot handle ignorant people who call othgers 'tree huggin lookies' is not MY fault, or any others who ask awkward questions wgich rile people such as your 'ever caring' self

    and regarding this 'tree hugging' insult propaganda. there is nothing wrong at ALL in hugging a tree. the very fact you see it is a problem says much about your sense of yourself. hugging is a damn sight better than chainsawing. i suppose callin someone a 'tree chainsawing loonie' wouldn't flick an eyebrow in thge world you seem to dwell in?

    now, you 'look'...either keep courteous, and non-condescending or dont bother trying to 'explain' to me, as i am finding it harder to respect your 'sole' opinion on this matter
     
  17. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,232
    Did I say I saw tree hugging as a problem? No. I very carefully placed the phrase within quotation marks to indicate this was used by others, in a perjorative sense, and so to distance myself from that usage.

    I regret that you found my efforts to convey my thoughts on this matter to be condescending. I felt my background in geology and career in oil exploration may have been relevant. In my present position, as on many previous occasions, I am involved in training. I enjoy this. I like to share the knowledge I have gained in forty years of work and study (by the way, that's why what I've been saying here is most definitely not my sole opinion).

    One of the reasons I frequent this forum is the knowledge I can gain from others. How do I separate the wheat from the chaff? I recall how we built our current base of knowledge, through rigorous application of scientific method. When I see work that has been processed in that way I weigh it very seriously; when I read posts that reflect that rigour I pay more heed to the poster. It is an approach that I would recommend to all.

    So, while I gain a lot from this and similar forums I like to put something back, as the cliche goes. My posts are of four types. Short, humorous ones [Well, I think they are funny.] Requests for information. Expressions of opinion, cllearly flagged as such. Factual responses, in which I try to share my knowledge. Naturally, I see it as a failing on my part if people discard or ignore that knowledge.

    I don't apologise for pointing out the mistake I believe you are making and the effect it may be having on the very thing you are trying to protect. It is your choice if you wish to be offended by that.
     
  18. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    6,585
    no, i am offended by your consoring manner. for example, think of having a class of students. one of them asks strange questions...say like einstein might have, yeah? or many of the 'mavericks' that have taken the previous assumptions and seriously fuked with tthem.......what are you gonna do, have that "shut up!" attitude?

    what that does is intimidate INQUIRY no matter how seemingly naive or off-the-wall it may be

    its that that got my goat. cause i hate others to be quietened...dumbed down. that shit is happening on a VAST scale
     
  19. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    9,232
    I am not sure what consoring is.

    Would you point out to me where I told you to shut up, literally or metaphorically. I have patiently, and sometimes not so patiently, pointed out where you were in error. And yes, you were in error. You were disregarding the scientific method, even, at times, disregarding common sense.
    This is a science forum. I have trained as a scientist. You posted a link and asked for comments. I responded with a balanced scientific assessment. The problem appears to be that my response did not match your prejudices.

    I like off the wall enquiries. There are no stupid questions. It would be quite wrong to dismiss the article out of hand. I dismissed it after considering the facts. I explained why I rejected it. I stand ready to clarify any part of that explanation. If you are feeling intimidated by this then I am at a loss.

    I am not trying to silence anyone. I am trying to correct wooly thinking. If you are offended by me calling some of your thinking wooly, so be it. There are important isssues out there. This fantasy is not one of them.
    It appears as if you posted the original link looking for agreement not genuine input. [Please note I have used the word appears. I no longer know why you posted it.]

    You hate dumbing down. To give the posted article serious credence is true dumbing down.
     
  20. marv Just a dumb hillbilly... Registered Senior Member

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    743
    duendy, I agree that one should have an open mind - just not so open that the wind blows through, as in flying saucers.

    In other words, new ideas can always be entertained. But they are subject to scrutiny. First by yourself to avoid embarrassment, then by peers for serious criticism.
     
  21. slotty Colostomy-its not my bag Registered Senior Member

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    That some posters on this thread think that a seismic event can be triggered by mans involvement is just totally wrong. Earthquakes are a product of changes in the upper mantle.The crust and upper part of the mantle form the lithosphere, about 100km thick that overlies the the hotter and more plastic mantle of the asthenosphere, above which horizontal lithospheric displacement can take place. The earths lithosphere floats on the denser, plastic asthenosphere beneath, and it rises and sinks in attemps to maintain isostatic equilibrium. Thats the reason for earthquakes. Man has only managed to drill about 20km at most into the crust and we only know about the structure of the interior of the earth from seismic suveys. Most of these are done by a vehicle with a bloody great big weight that is vibrated and the waves are then detected by computers etc. Explosives are not used a great deal now, and even if all the worlds nukes were shoved into a subduction zone, there would still not be an earthquake ( well very unlikely, but i just want to get my point across) . Seismic events are simply to deep around a subuction zone as a rule to be affected in anyway by our involvement. :m:
     

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