Drive for England to apologize to Alan Turing

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Billy T, Aug 20, 2009.

  1. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    In last couple of weeks Richard Dawkins, Ian McEwan, et.al. have collected >4,000 signatures in a petition demanding that the British government apologize to Alan Turing, the brilliant openly homosexual who more than any other man won WWII for England and the free world against Nazi Germany.

    I want to add my name to that demanding petition: Dr. W. R. Powell

    For those who do not know about Alan Turing, he is considered by most to be the father of artificial intelligence, inventor of the Turing test, but probably his most important contribution to humanity was his cracking of the "un-crack-able" Nazi Enigma code in WWII. That allowed the British Navy to know the locations / the stations, the German Admiralty was ordering it wolf-pack subs to.

    So important was this, than many times information was learned about planned German troop movements etc., that could help Allied soldiers, it was not passed to their commanders as the most important thing was to give no indication to the German high command that England was "reading their mail." The fact that the wolf-pack subs could not stop England’s re-supply convoys , thanks to Alan Turing's mental skills, probably changed world history in the most dramatic way one could imagine; - Alan won WWII and prevented a Nazi empire from occupying Europe, England included, IMHO.

    What was Alan's reward? Well despite being openly gay, he was judged to be a security risk as "gays could be blackmailed." What nonsense in Alan's case! No longer so desperately needed, he lost his security clearance and beginning in 1952 Alan was subjected, by the British government to "treatments" with female hormones, as being a homosexual was a crime in England then. The treatment distorted his body (gave him breasts etc.) and disturbed him psychologically - two years later he was dead by poisoning, very probably a suicide.

    IMHO, this petition should be for all English homosexual that the government abused and those still living (or their heirs) should be paid at least 10,000 pounds each. If you feel as I do, post to add your real name to this petition also.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2009
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Isn't he dead? Who are they going to apologise to?

    In India we have a saying, giving a dead man water will not give him any relief.
     
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  5. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Where's the petition?
     
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  7. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    The public. The pope apologized to Galileo after he was dead for several hundred years. If he can do it so should the Queen, at least via Parliament.
     
  8. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    I do not know. I did not search as not good at that - perhaps you can find and post a copy.
     
  9. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Well I am sure Galileo felt as good about it as Alan Turing will. Its an okay gesture but it would be more meanigful to make a trust fund in his name for research into artificial intelliegnce. A substantial one.

    Here is a link to the petition:its only for British citizens/residents

    http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/turing/
     
  10. superstring01 Moderator

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    Exactly. I hate all this apologizing to dead people for things done by people who aren't even alive now.

    While we're at it, I want an apology from those fucking Italians for attempting to invade my German ancestors. I also want the Danish, Norwegians and Swedes to apologize to my Irish and English ancestors for raping and pillaging villages across those Islands. My Cherokee ancestors want my white ancestors and their descendants to apologize for their evil deeds too. Which kinda' puts me in a pickle.

    ~String
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I would actually go for those apologies because a state can apologise to a nation of people it has wronged [like Australians to Aboriginals, for instance or Americans to the Japanese, hopefully] but again I would hope that they would do something for them rather than just mouth platitutdes

    But apologising to a dead person seems pointless
     
  12. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    I'm a little English, but purportedly a little Irish somewhere in the distant past.

    On St. Patrick's Day, I drink green beer, wander out onto the street, and loudly jeer at myself until I'm forced to kick my ass.

    Idiot bogtrotter.
     
  13. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    I can agree with SAM that some more useful things could be done to encourages advances in AI, but there is already considerable prize money waiting for development of AI which can pass the Turing test even in relatively limited fields of knowledge. Thus, perhaps scholarships for students doing well in AI would be better.

    I also want to note that while Alan will not benefit from an apology there are ALWAYS two sides to an apology. There is some deterrent value on government’s future actions. - For example, if embarrassed / punished by needing to apologize, then it is harder for the government to do despicable act like force gays to be chemically castrated, as Alan was. Governments need to be held accountable for their crimes against humanity, IMHO.

    This is essentially impossible when the government is powerful, such as the USA or England. They cannot be adequately punished but they can be shamed and forced to apologize. - Admittedly, not a big punishment for their prior crime, not much of a deterent against it repeating, but it is BETTER THAN NOTHING. The 1000mile journey begins with the first step - let’s do what we can now (rather than nothing) to move governments, even the powerful ones, towards better behavior.

    Also all seem to be neglecting the last paragraph of the OP - it calls for 10,000 pounds to be paid to ALL still living gays who were abused by their own government. Especially when England is in deep financial trouble, this cost will hurt the government.* As I said above, there are two sides to an apology. The fact that one is dead, does not prevent good effect on the other.

    I also, do not think that Alan should get unique recognition, compensation restoration of honor, by the government, just because he was brilliant. All English men/women should be equal before the law /government. Why in the OP, I call for treating all alike. Alan was special. -Saved his government / nation / the entire free world / from defeat in WWII with his gifted mind, IMHO, so perhaps a posthumously awarded metal is in order for this service. That is often done.

    This petition is for ALL who were abused – not a meaningless jester to one dead man. A small step, but an achievable one, towards making powerful governments more responsible, better.

    Join me - have the courage to speak out against injustice - sign a post with your real name.

    ------------------
    *But probably is neutral or even beneficial to the society in economic terms (as well as social effect) as it servers as stimulus to the economy – I for one would rather give money to the people rather than the bankers etc. who make the economic mess England and others are in when stimulus is needed.

    PS To over state my point: If governments can punish citizens that do no harm to others by chemical castration, why not cut the tounge out of those who speak ill against the government?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2009
  14. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    People can post their name to the petition on the link in post # 6 provided they are british citizens.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2009
  15. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Interesting reaction from a theist who believes in an afterlife. Surely the 'soul' of Turing would 'perceive' the gesture kindly.

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    Oh wait he was gay so I guess he's experiencing worse trauma doled out by god than by the british government.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2009
  16. superstring01 Moderator

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    The US has already (and rightly) apologized to the Japanese who were interred during WWII. If you're referring to the Japanese on the other side of the Pacific, don't hold your breath.

    ~String
     
  17. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Why is that "rightly apologoized" yet no apology should be made to gay men who were chemically castrated by the English government?
     
  18. prometheus viva voce! Registered Senior Member

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    A minor point: The country who's government you are requesting to apologize to Alan Turing is not England which does not have it's own government as such, it is the UK government. Also more acceptable but incorrect is calling it the government of Great Britain. The UK consists of Great Britain plus Northern Ireland while Great Britain is composed of England, Scotland and Wales. This is a mistake quite often made by our Yank friends. (Note the use of irony here. Aren't I funny.

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  19. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks I will probably keep making mistakes. Why can't you English stick with just a few alternatives, like the Dutch. Even I know to call their land the Netherlands, not Holland.

    Currently the release of the Lockerbie Plane bomber has even the US state deptarment complaing to G. Brown etc. when as I understand it it was a Scotish decision.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 24, 2009
  20. prometheus viva voce! Registered Senior Member

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    Lockerbie was a bit funny. Because the crime happened in Scottish airspace it was tried (in the Netherlands incidentally) under Scottish law. Since then the Scots have had their own parliament and elected an administration that is different from the UK govt.

    From what I gather about the decision to release him, the appeal that was happening and was dropped so that Megrahi could be released would have brought some uncomfortable evidence that he was the fall guy* and Libya sent him over as a political gesture to improve relations with Britain. He would probably have had his conviction quashed on appeal.

    *Note: my position is this - If he was involved, he was probably a minor character rather than the mastermind.

    Thread hijacking over.

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  21. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Not quite. I'll throw in my 2cents: He was convicted b/c the bomb was in his suit case. As even at death's door he insists he is innocent (instead of exhibiting pride in his accomplishments as real terrorists usually do, almost without exception), I bet he did not even know the bomb was there. Certainly it would have been easy to put it there after the bag was checked in the Libian airport. Back then you could check bag and not go on the plane or ask someones else to transport bag for you, etc.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 24, 2009
  22. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    All of my Dutch friends use "Holland" and "the Netherlands" interchangeably, when speaking English (I have no idea what they say in Dutch).
     
  23. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Okay, then the British state can apologize to the British nation for these crimes against it.

    Why am I not surprised to find you inventing spurious objections to something with Richard Dawkins' name on it?
     

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