First off, let's establish my viewpoints on this, what I am for, and what I am against.

Affirmative action has proven (statistically) to help promote minorities and help them receive more jobs. Great, I think it is a good program at the job level but not at the post-secondary level. So please, don't argue like my teacher and completely go tangent to the point. The argument is about Affirmative Action at the undergraduate level.
I don't think it is right. It undermines the minorities, basically saying "We are doing for you what you cannot do for yourselves." The Asians (7% minority in the U.S., one of the lowest) DO NOT receive benefits from Affirmative Action because basically we study damn hard, we know what success is, and we have strong work-study ethics (generally speaking). We score the highest on the SAT on the average, better than our white-counterparts. Just because we strive for success and do well, value education grealty, and the other minorities do not, why should they receive "special priveleges." Is that "equal." No, it is reverse discrimination.
Race is not the problem, a person doesn't score low on the SAT because he is black or hispanic, but because of socioeconomic conditions. Why the hell are they making quotas based on race? Shouldn't the poor have benefits in the admissions process because it is a fact that the richer one is the better education one will receive.


Any other view points are welcomed. Let's debate!! :cool:

Affirmative action works for people that need jobs and I'm not suggesting to destroy the program, it is good. I'm advocating to "mend it and not end it." Statistically, Affirmative action has helped "under-represented minorities" to better jobs and so on and has in some cases fight off discrimination pretty well.

But at the undergraduate level, it's a bunch of crap. Asians have to score 1400+ SAT to compete with their own race for admissions to Ivy League institutions. Other "under-represented" minorities have to score sub-par scores. Unfair if you tell me. Why should they care about receiving an Ivy League education? They should care about getting any education.

Affirmative action is a program that is abused by under-represented minorities and helps under-qualified applicants get into top universities. If you want the top, you better damn well work for it.

Sorry. You will get no argument from me.

Oo, the left get to upset when you tell them they recognize blacks and other minorities as inferior people that need special quotas and regulations to succeed in life.

Affirmative action is an evil and should be abolished everywhere. It is reverse discrimination and it implies the minorities are inferior people in need of quotas to succeed in life. That isn't true. And you mentioned asians... they sure as hell don't need help because even in my school the majority of them outperforms me... /jealous (OK they study 5x as much as I do.)

Everyone can do their part to end the silliness by skipping any question on a form regarding your heritage or skin color.

Originally posted by zanket
Everyone can do their part to end the silliness by skipping any question on a form regarding your heritage or skin color.

The "under-represented" bunch of them will not skip that part. They are being benefited against other races.

A rich black person has the best advantage to make it in any top institution of higher learning.

While a poor Asian or Jew has no "benefits" to help them, they have to work their asses off either way: rich or poor.

Our Constitution should be color-blind. Poor people are the ones that suffer the most from receiving a quality education.

The Affirmative Action program should be based upon socioeconomic conditions.

Originally posted by SuperFudd
Sorry. You will get no argument from me.

Then don't post, what you posted has no value; you just wasted my time also.

We whites ought to get Affirmative Action to get our sorry asses up to par with the asians:p

What matters most imo are socio-economic and cultural differences, Arguably asians may have slightly more geek genes on average than whites, but the most important factor is that we just don't like to study that hard, we like to chill with friends and party, iow: have a social life....

Consider the whites halfway between overambitious and lazy hedonist....

OK then. Let me put it another way:

RIGHT ON BRO!!
:D

there's no such thing as reverse discrimination. discrimination is discrimination.

on the topic of affirmative action, it is flawed but should absolutely not be abolished even while it is still flawed. i agree that it should be based more on socioeconomic status and level of opportunity. at the current time, race is the best and most reliable indicator of that. at the job level, race is every bit as important because this is not a fully homogenized country in the least, especially outside of cities. i only see race based discrimination a little bit here in new york but i hear rumor that the rest of the country is a bread ::coughwhitecough:: basket. at the educational level, opportunity is the limiting factor but does not apply equally to all members of a particular race. i know white people from brooklyn who fared much much worse at their public school than hispanic kids from long island. my decent grades at private school earned me no more grant money than my then boyfriend's mediocre grades at a lousy inner city public school. they weigh about the same.

The Chosen:

<i>Race is not the problem, a person doesn't score low on the SAT because he is black or hispanic, but because of socioeconomic conditions. Why the hell are they making quotas based on race?</i>

Which is the most socioeconomically disadvantaged group in the United States? Do you need a hint?

muslims ?

Originally posted by James R
The Chosen:

Which is the most socioeconomically disadvantaged group in the United States? Do you need a hint?

I don't need a hint. I understand that the socioeconomic disparities within the racial groups should not go unnoticed.

Admissions are a zero-sum game, preferences hurt poor "under-represented" minorities and even many Asians (who meet admissions standards in disproportionate numbers). If preferences were truly meant to remedy disadvantage, they would be given on the basis of disadvantage, not on the basis of race.

No one is at a disadvantage because of what race you are. Affirmative action for the undergraduate level implies this, they give certain "special group preferences," thus suggesting that what race you are born in determines your need for "benefits." I am against "special group preferences." It doesn' t matter if you are poor, it just matters what skin color you are.

Furthermore, in the Asian-American community there are large economic disparities among the different Asian ethnic groups. Most of the East Asians who immigrated to the United States were among those with a higher educational background and have achieved greater educational success as Asians. South and South East Asians, on the other hand, are a more recent immigrant group, many of whom came as refugees. Chinese and Korean perform the best. But what about the Vietnamese, Laotians, Hmongs and the rest?

Society lumps all Asians together. The term "Asian" includes persons of Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Cambodian, Laotian, Vietnamese, Filipino, Asian Indian, Pakistani, Thai and other Asian ancestry.

Race-conscious programs betray Martin Luther King's dream of a color-blind community and goes against the assumption that the Constitution is color-blind.

The point is:

I'll concentrate on Asians, since they are the "model minority."

When Asians first came to American they were regarded as the yellow peril. They didn't know how to speak English. Yet they worked hard and succeeded in America despite all the problems that faced them. Other minorities should follow the same suit.

Why don't we have Affirmative action in sports? :rolleyes: How many Asian pro-basketball players do you see? Maybe they should be given special priveleges even though they cannot compete against blacks in sports.

Now apply this towards education. Asians excel at education, why should what they excel in work against them? I want to see the best and brightest in school and the strongest and fastest in the stadium, and I don't care about their color. Do you not see? Asians are being limited and the rest of the other "over-represented" minorities. It is basically this hyperbolic scenario: US government, "Sorry Asians, you represent 7% of our population, therefore only 7% of you get to attend college and get jobs, you are limited based on your race, it doesn't matter if you significantly outperform other races and greatly over-qualify for your positions, you are limited because of your skin color."

Think about it. If other minorities work as hard as Asians regarding education, we wouldn't need affirmative action at the undergraduate level. Think about this--if Asians performed the worst in the SAT's, would they received the benefits under affirmative action, of course! But they don't because they work hard. Now why can't other minorities do the same thing? Why do they need to be "given breaks." That is crap. Either stand up to your competition or lose out. That is what evolution is all about and that is the truth.

But then again, if you don't have the adequate resources to stand up against the competition, then you should be given special preference, and the poor really need this. They can't buy books to study, they can't enroll in SAT prep courses, and etc. They need that help, not certain races.

But at the job level, it is another story and racism does exist and Affirmative Action works at the job level, minorities are receiving more jobs and are being represented in Congress, as statistically seen.

Originally posted by SuperFudd
OK then. Let me put it another way:

RIGHT ON BRO!!
:D

:cool: my bad

Originally posted by Jerrek
Oo, the left get to upset when you tell them they recognize blacks and other minorities as inferior people that need special quotas and regulations to succeed in life.

Affirmative action is an evil and should be abolished everywhere. It is reverse discrimination and it implies the minorities are inferior people in need of quotas to succeed in life. That isn't true. And you mentioned asians... they sure as hell don't need help because even in my school the majority of them outperforms me... /jealous (OK they study 5x as much as I do.)

TAC: Interesting, a minority people that have not been able to find a place on the planet where they are not soon hated in over 3,000 years, talk about "inferior" minorities! :eek:

As for "people that need quotas to succeed," you should take a look at my post elsewhere on SciForums where I show the billion$ that have been spent on subsidizing ( quota-less ) Jewish and semi-Kosher immigration:

1. Free Section-8 rent subsidies
2. Free Welfare/Foodstamps
3. Free Medical insurance
4. Free Dental insurance
5. Free SSI disability for Jews that have never worked in the US
6. Free Pell grants and scholorships for Jews and their kids
7. Free Legal aid
8. Free immigration for their families "back home" ( overseas ) after they have established themselves as "welfare" crooks.*
9. Free pensions for people that have "vested" nada in America

And after they get established in America--the cycle repeats itself!!!! :eek:

*In NYC there are Jews that own jewelry/clothing/food stores on 5th avenue and elsewhere that continue to collect welfare, food stamps and they even steal money from the NYC school system to subsidize their "racist" Haddasic ( for Jews only ) schools ( 60-Minutes, February/2001 ) . They are called "The Russian Mafia," because as Jews, if they were to be called the "Jewish Mafia" it would not be Kosher--and the word "anti-Semite" would creep into the news reports.

In 1999, this amounted to "over $1 billion" in taxpayer dollars--in 2003 experts predict it will exceed $2.8 billion!

All of this is for "Jews only" and all the "other" immigrants must pick lettuce/strawberries/lettuce and asparagus in California or pick oranges in Florida ( sleeping "under the stars" ) or steal the "good jobs" from Americans---like cleaning white butts as domestic workers, sweeping/mopping floors and getting screwed in the services industries and in the grip of the corrupt US Agri-Corporations.

These "Affirmative Action" programs "FOR JEWS ONLY" are never publicized much less criticized by people like Sean Hannity & Bill O'Reilly of the FOX JEWS NETWORK or even the people of THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION, much less by the Jerrek's of SciForums, and the CHUTZPAH motivated "schmucks" of the world, et. al.

Nuff Said! :p

TheAZCowBoy,