This question is a little bit tricky..
Is there anything in the universe that exists as non-existance?

Like something void of physicality. For instance, a concept or something which we can imagine. Or whatever else. Does it exist? :confused: :eek: :D

physicality is only a human description of what we can observe. if there is something we cannot observe then it is only because of our own limitations, not because it is fundamentally different than any other force. anything that affects this universe can be described as a physical force because it is possible to be observed.

existence is. there are no types of existence or non-existence. either something exists or it does not exist.

I was attracted to this thread because the title made me laugh.

For fun I decided to write this out in math notation. I gotta say, made my day. :)

How the hell can non-existence exist when non-existence contradicts existence? Get a life, TruthSeeker! :m:

I think what he might be getting at is this: is non-existance possible? Are all things that could exist, exist?

Are all things that could exist, exist?

No, because our imagination is not based in reality. If what we imagine to exist was realistically possible, it would exist or at the very least hold the possiblity of existence. However, anything we imagine to not exist are ideas that would not fit in reality, hence non-existence.

Is there anything in the universe that exists as non-existance?

this belongs in the "stupid question" thread
i believe it's in the cesspool

How do you know there are not other universes parallel to our own, and infinite number of them? Such a large quantity would surely create all things that could possibly exist as there is a large enough sample to do so. So then my question is what makes it so that a conceivable thought "existable" or not?

How do you know there are not other universes parallel to our own, and infinite number of them? Such a large quantity would surely create all things that could possibly exist as there is a large enough sample to do so. So then my question is what makes it so that a conceivable thought "existable" or not?

Any parallel Universe's would not be considered our reality, and therefore any discussion about remote possiblities do not apply.

What is "our" reality? What if for "our" universe, there is another one encompassing it? And inside that one, as I said, an infinite number? Then all things that could exist will exist. Just a possibility.

What is "our" reality? What if for "our" universe, there is another one encompassing it? And inside that one, as I said, an infinite number? Then all things that could exist will exist. Just a possibility.

Just because you can imagine it (parallel Universe) doesn't mean there is a possiblity it exists. I imagine a Human being with equal the mass of the Sun who grabs the Earth in the palm of his hand and crushes it just because he can. Is that a possiblity? No. That goes back to my original statement, our imaginations are not based in reality. Also, "our reality" simply means our plane of existence. The "possiblities" of existence outside of our reality is a completely different matter.

I think what he might be getting at is this: is non-existance possible? Are all things that could exist, exist?
Perfect. :cool:

No, because our imagination is not based in reality. If what we imagine to exist was realistically possible, it would exist or at the very least hold the possiblity of existence. However, anything we imagine to not exist are ideas that would not fit in reality, hence non-existence.
No, the exact opposite is true. Our imagination is always based on reality. Try to imagine anything, and you will see it. Even if we try to create something, we use existant things in order to create something new. Creativity is simply the ability to make unusual connections.

No, the exact opposite is true. Our imagination is always based on reality. Try to imagine anything, and you will see it. Even if we try to create something, we use existant things in order to create something new. Creativity is simply the ability to make unusual connections.

Flying spider monkeys are based on reality? Perhaps bird + spider monkey, the whole's parts, but not the whole.

I have read somwhere that there are 44 universes total. I think the meaning of reality is defined by what you choose to believe in.

Who found them? I think "44" is a number refering to one of many types of human brains. Psychology just seems to click on that one.

Flying spider monkeys are based on reality? Perhaps bird + spider monkey, the whole's parts, but not the whole.
Yes, that's a good example.

I have read somwhere that there are 44 universes total. I think the meaning of reality is defined by what you choose to believe in.
Who found them? I think "44" is a number refering to one of many types of human brains. Psychology just seems to click on that one.
I was born on the 4th of April, 1984. Maybe "44" refers to me? :p

Yes! I'm the master of the universe! Bown down to the great 44! :D

How about this question.. will everything that can exist eventually exist in a finite amount of time? I don't know where I stand here.. but I guess someone make an opinion and I will just argue the opposite. That sounds like fun.

How about the flying spaghety monster? :D

I am great at refuting my own hypothesis. :D
I'm a master of the non-sense... :D :m:

This question is a little bit tricky..
Is there anything in the universe that exists as non-existance?

Not that anyone has observed to date.

what is existence? is it nonexistence?

How about the flying spaghety monster? :D

COuld not exist.. noodles and wads of meat do not make room for life.

what is existence? is it nonexistence?

It's presence of information at the very least.

Something non-existent does not exist. However, the concept of something non-existent does exist.

Thats the best that I can come up with.

^ Good answer. :)

Truthseeker...http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h197/absane/notexist.jpg

WTF? LOL.

Assume our universe is finite. You do agree that all things that could exist is just a collection to infinity?

Anyway I am just arguing something different than what TS meant, as I know what he means. I just feel like being a bitch.

You are very successful in being a bitch.

LOL, how so?

You are fooling around with my head!

I don't know why I thought of this a long time ago, but it goes with this thread. What if nothing really exist. Then anything can happen in our universe because in the end none of it really exist. T :confused:

just to get this idea of non-existance clear i'd like to use an example making some assumptions..
say we have a soul. and we do not know what happens to it when we die. does it still exist or go into a state of non existance?
is this what ur getting at? the existence of a state of non existence? :D

No. I'm asking if a state of non-existance can actually be perceived as existance.

I think... I don't remember the start of this thread... :D

i think you guys are just playing with words now.

everything is as it is--everything is made of the same basic stuff. nothing can cease existing, it just changes into some other form. the building blocks have always been here, its just that they are constantly reorganized in different patterns and structures. the things that can never exist are only mental associations between actual things that have no such association in reality. the things that do exist, but have no physical form, are interactions and relationships.

i think you guys are just playing with words now.
Isn't that what constitutes a conversation? ;) :D

Isn't that what constitutes a conversation? ;) :D
lol maybe, but usually the words actually relate to something we can percieve directly.

everything is as it is--everything is made of the same basic stuff. nothing can cease existing, it just changes into some other form. the building blocks have always been here, its just that they are constantly reorganized in different patterns and structures. the things that can never exist are only mental associations between actual things that have no such association in reality. the things that do exist, but have no physical form, are interactions and relationships.
Well, maybe everything is made out of nothingness. Why not? Nothingness is the simplest form of existance. It is logical that existance could come from it. Unless you believe that everything that exists has always existed, which means that there is an infinite amount of time in the past.

But anyways... I'm starting to go off a tangent now... :)

On a side note, subatomic particles often spontaneusly appear from absolute vaccum... :eek: ;)

Well, maybe everything is made out of nothingness. Why not? Nothingness is the simplest form of existance. It is logical that existance could come from it. Unless you believe that everything that exists has always existed, which means that there is an infinite amount of time in the past.

But anyways... I'm starting to go off a tangent now... :)

On a side note, subatomic particles often spontaneusly appear from absolute vaccum...

Everything couldn't be made out of nothing simply by virtue that it's something :). Even in the remotest theories of inflation, the laws of physics and bubbles of structure seem to exist.

That pure vaccum idea with virtual particles appearing isn't quite something from nothing. The pure vaccum of space is loaded with structure (space-time for example) as well as energy galore. The 'purest' vaccum is theorized in inflation (reference my original paragraph), but that is utra theoretical. We can at least detect virtual particles in our universe.

Consequently, it may just be that something 'always' existed / will exist. I put 'always' in quotes because time (as we know it) may only be applicable to our universe (assuming it really exists and is not an illusion of probability states and our perception and memory within any particular state). Hell we don't know what time is, but thats a whole new can of worms.

Oh well... everything is relative... :D:D

Well, maybe everything is made out of nothingness. Why not? Nothingness is the simplest form of existance. It is logical that existance could come from it. Unless you believe that everything that exists has always existed, which means that there is an infinite amount of time in the past.

But anyways... I'm starting to go off a tangent now... :)

On a side note, subatomic particles often spontaneusly appear from absolute vaccum... :eek: ;)
nothingness is the simplest form of non-existence. if nothing existed, everything wouldn't exist. its like looking at a blank sheet of paper and saying there's nothing there. its still a piece of paper, its something.

and yes, i do believe that everything that exists has always existed, it seems like a very likely possibility. i think that the universe is so interrelated that it is ultimately uniform, and that we percieve that as being no different than nothing, but it is not actually nothing because the term 'nothing' is only a false connection in our mind. its like if you looked at a line graph with all the possible lines filled in. it would be completely black (or whatever color ink you have). but everything would still be in there.

Oh well... everything is relative... :D:D
exactly

Good thinking.... ;)

This question is a little bit tricky..
Is there anything in the universe that exists as non-existance?

Like something void of physicality. For instance, a concept or something which we can imagine. Or whatever else. Does it exist? :confused: :eek: :D

I think everything in the universe exists in one form or another. A concept exists as a concept. The concept can be developed and even expressed in the physical but then the expression is not the concept itself... it is just a representation of the concept... such as a painting.

Oh well... everything is relative... :D:D

everything is relative and nothingness is absolute.

everything is relative and nothingness is absolute.
and the state of an absolute seems to be contrary to the character of our universe.

All absolutes seem to form paradoxes. "Nothingness exists" is an oxymoron, a paradox. "Can God create a rock too heavy for God to lift?" etc.

and the state of an absolute seems to be contrary to the character of our universe.

the fact that nothing in the universe is absolute is an absolute, but that has already been said a million times.

Yes, Truth is paradoxical...

How many times have I said that? :D

the fact that nothing in the universe is absolute is an absolute, but that has already been said a million times.
i know, thats exactly why i worded it the way i did, yet it still came across as implying that an absolute can exist in our universe to you. i think its all relative and we're reaching a limit to what our language can convey with this topic. you cannot describe this kind of thought in words. but i feel like i have to try anyway.

there is no nothing and 'no nothing' is the same as everything. but at the same time, there are no absolutes (at least right now) because nothing is the only absolute and if there was nothing, then all relativity would cease to be. and that's all we are--groupings of energy that are relative to each other. at the point of t=0, the universe was cancelled out for a moment without duration. in that moment time did not exist, and so everything was absolute. but in an absolute such as that, it cannot exist with respect to anything before or after it because it has no duration and no effect. it is a one-way bridge. it is that point on the graph of a wave where the waveline meets the equilibrium line before passing on. eternity exists within the indivisible moment; the indivisible moment of a single quantum state. the absolute only exists in this moment of no change--a timeless state that has no duration. but it is a step in the stairway of time. because after one timeless state comes the next. then another and another. that is change--that is time.

relative to time, eternity exists with no duration--it is only a moment in retrospect.

The time is always now. But change is never now. An absolute? :bugeye:

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Existence is a predicate. "I exist" necessarily means "existence exists". Anything that contradicts existence is nothing (2nd Law of Thermodynamics). There is no form nor function in nothing. That is obvious. Consider that to exist, a square and a circle need have distinct manifesting properties. Hence, to create a "square circle" would be to create nothing and thus be anti-existence, or anti-distinctive. Therefore, to state that there can be the possibility of nothing in everything, that is, that non-existence can exist is itself a contradiction. Contradiction is not the same as paradox. Paradox may have existence. Paradox is contradictory to absolutes.

Therefore, nothing is the one true absolute.

Yes....
Nothing has function, however. Ever read eastern philosophy? The nothing often creates the function for the something.....

Yes....
Nothing has function, however. Ever read eastern philosophy? The nothing often creates the function for the something.....
Depends what your defintion of nothing is.

Yes, we shall now discuss what "nothingness" means. It's rather mind boggling to me. As a child, for some reason I would torture myself trying to imaging what nothing was. All it did was send me to the mental confusion zone. I tried getting my friends to do the same, and all they did was laugh at me.

"Try to imagine NOTHING... no color, no black, no white... no objects... no energy.. NOTHING. Describe it to me."

I was a preteen nerd with not enough to do except take my ritalin.

Dont worry about thinking about it. Nothing dosent exist, nor has it ever.:D

Well we can attempt to establish fact regarding existance of "nothingness" when we actually know what it is.

If it does not exist, then in what sense can we create the concept in our minds? Numbers do not exist, but we got an idea of what they are and how they work. :)

Well, the existance of nothingness implies a potential existance rather then an actual one. The question is: can everything that we imagine possibly exist? We can certainly imagine the concept of nothingness. But can we imagine how nothingness looks like?

Furthermore, what is nothingness? Is it simply the existance of something which may exist? Or does it actually "occupates" "space"? If the first, then nothingness is all around us! If the second, it can only exist if the universe is finite, outside the boundaries of the universe!

So what is it? ;)

Well, the existance of nothingness implies a potential existance rather then an actual one.

What is your line of reasoning here? It seems your statement is self-contradictory by of definition of existance that you are using (or something. What?).

For nothingness to exist does not mean nothingness cannot exist... nothingness is just what we call whatever it is that does not exist.

The question is: can everything that we imagine possibly exist? We can certainly imagine the concept of nothingness. But can we imagine how nothingness looks like?

No. Here is my counterexample: Say the universe is governed by a set of laws called A. I create my own universe in my mind governed by laws B. Assuming there is only one set of laws that work in our universe, I could not possibly create my own governed by laws B in one governed by A because all laws B would be subject to the laws of A.

Furthermore, what is nothingness? Is it simply the existance of something which may exist? Or does it actually "occupates" "space"? If the first, then nothingness is all around us! If the second, it can only exist if the universe is finite, outside the boundaries of the universe!

So what is it? ;)

Nothingness could be described as voidness of all which is conceivable by any and all forces which are conceivable by conceivable entities. Too many "conceivables," sorry.

Let me try this:

Nothingness could be described as voidness of all which is conceivable by any and all forces which are conceivable by conceivable entities which conceive and create all that is existant.


???

Is that nothingness abstract? :confused:

Huh? Trying being more specific

I don't see how I can be more specific. Is nothingness only a concept in our minds or is it out there?

How about that wording...?

Nothing is only a concept of the mind. Nothing by defintion is absolute lack of everything. And since we exist we can assume that something has always existed therefore eliminating the possibilty of nothing.

I don't see how I can be more specific. Is nothingness only a concept in our minds or is it out there?

How about that wording...?

How about replying to my post critiquing your questions and statements.

Nothingness is an idea... a noun. We are not treating it like a "thing" and therefore commiting a fallacy. So it seems to me nothingness does not exist as we would consider existance in normal, everyday existance, but rather as an idea to describe that which is fulfils my rough definition of northingness.

Let me try this:

Nothingness could be described as voidness of all which is conceivable by any and all forces which are conceivable by conceivable entities which conceive and create all that is existant.


???

Wait... this is probably better:

Nothingness could be described as voidness of all which is constructable by any combination of all forces which are conceivable by material or nonmaterial entities which conceive and create all that is existant.

Why do you have to over complicate this?:P
Nothing is only the absolute lack of everything. Everything sums up all the things you just said:D

Why do you have to over complicate this?:P
Nothing is only the absolute lack of everything. Everything sums up all the things you just said:D

It is the INTP in me... on one hand I am very general and all over the place. On the other hand, I must be precise in my wording.

If you care to look: Click here (http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html) for a detailed description that fits me all too fucking well. :bugeye:

But also SS, I want to know what nothingness is and how one would describe it. Yes, you can say it's a void. But what does this mean? A cubic meter of outer space void? How about if you could section this space off and deflect all forces (like gravity, gamma rays.. everything). Is it still nothingness? Is the space itself something, meaning we haven't created a cubic meter of nothingness yet?

Bleh.

Space itself is something. Even if it is void of energy or matter. Nothing is this. An Absolute Lack of Everything. That means it lacks Anything. This includes space, time, matter, energy. Nothing cant be measured becuase it would be infinite for if it was finte then that means it would have an ending poit or barrier and that implies something is there which means nothing isnt. Nothing (If it existed) would be infinte and without measure. Make sense?

Hail to all INTPs bro! http://www.fadzter.com/smilies/buttrock.gif

I forget what personality type i am:P know of any good sites to take those tests?

I forget what personality type i am:P know of any good sites to take those tests?

best thing you can do is look around and take multiple ones... "average" them together. Read the descriptions and see how well it fits you. You'll likely fit one way better than most.

Space itself is something. Even if it is void of energy or matter. Nothing is this. An Absolute Lack of Everything. That means it lacks Anything. This includes space, time, matter, energy. Nothing cant be measured becuase it would be infinite for if it was finte then that means it would have an ending poit or barrier and that implies something is there which means nothing isnt. Nothing (If it existed) would be infinte and without measure. Make sense?

No it doesn't make sense. I understand what you mean about space being something... but what is this something? Can it really made of ANYTHING? In what sense does nothingness exist? Just like numbers.. in what sense do numbers exist? Sort of along the same lines of thinking I assume.

Hold on...Im confusing myself.:eek:

How? LOL. Unconfuse yourself and tell me why you are confused :eek:

the concept 0f nothing brings to mind the concept of zero 0....which brings to mind the integers,which further brings the negative numbers :D ..
so im beginnin to wonder if theres anything less than nothing,in a physical sense? like theres absolute void. n then u take more from it..what happens? but if theres nothing,you cant take anythin from it, or maybe u can. :m:
damn our limited imagination.

hey spiritual try tickletests :cool:

Is there anything in the universe that exists as non-existance?
Yes. It is called oblivion.
Just like on and off on a light switch.
There is existence and there is oblivion (the absence of existence).

Where?

the concept 0f nothing brings to mind the concept of zero 0....which brings to mind the integers,which further brings the negative numbers :D ..
so im beginnin to wonder if theres anything less than nothing,in a physical sense? like theres absolute void. n then u take more from it..what happens? but if theres nothing,you cant take anythin from it, or maybe u can. :m:
damn our limited imagination.

hey spiritual try tickletests :cool:


Like say everything that exists has a positive existance and "nothingness" is zero. Fairly interesting, negative existance.

Where?
As soon as you stop thinking in time and space (where and when), you will find out.

As soon as you stop thinking in time and space (where and when), you will find out.

I hope there is a lack of humor in that statement, I understand what you are talking about :eek:

the formless structure of the dao, the empty force that holds the universe together,


but as i just named it i guess its not nothing anymore, and its now something,

so i just turned nothingness into something, i created existence of the non existing form,


now tell me im not a god,

peace.

How does giving a name to something make it something? Perhaps I am thinking of "nothingness" differently than everyone else?

My opinion on non existance is the only way for something to not exist is limit. As long as infinite universes/dimensions exist, ANYTHING can exist.

although that's debatable. A soul sucking machine doesn't exist.

Or.... does it? :bugeye:

My opinion on non existance is the only way for something to not exist is limit. As long as infinite universes/dimensions exist, ANYTHING can exist.

although that's debatable. A soul sucking machine doesn't exist.

Or.... does it? :bugeye:

I would have to say there is a finite amount of energy/mass in the universe... so not everything that can exist currently exists.

I am talking about multiple universe's here. With one Universe there's only one possibility, one set of physical laws, one dimension. With multiverse possibilities are limitless.

That sort of goes along the lines of my theory of hierarchical universes (I feel it is "good enough" to explain where everything came from).

This question is a little bit tricky..
Is there anything in the universe that exists as non-existance?

Like something void of physicality. For instance, a concept or something which we can imagine. Or whatever else. Does it exist?

What exists at the centre of a black hole?
What exists outside the universe?
What is the square root of -1?
What precedes a thought?

...just some ideas! :cool:

I think someone already mentioned virtual particles...

What exists at the centre of a black hole?

black holes don't exist.

What exists outside the universe?

nothing (infinity)

What is the square root of -1?

i

What precedes a thought?

will.

Funny thing about i, the sqaure root of -1, is that all we did was call it something. Seems like a pussy way to deal with a number we know nothing about it, but it works. Same thing we did when we wanted to know how to deal with this a + b = 0. We will just call b = -a.

Is there anything in the universe that exists as non-existance?

So, do they qualify?
black holes don't exist.
So, do they exist (we can see their effects) as non-existences?

nothing (infinity)
OK it's not in the Universe, and actually, there may be "branes" out there in the multidimensional multiverse.

i
So, if you walked i kilometers North, where would you get to?
If you gave me i dollars or pounds, how rich would I be?
Does "i" exist as non-existence?

will.
Do you will all your thoughts into existence? That must be a strain! What about the decision to "will" a thought - isn't that itself a thought? What comes before that? Don't thoughts just spontaneously arise from something else, but what is that something? Does it exist as a non-existence?

Funny thing about i, the sqaure root of -1, is that all we did was call it something. Seems like a pussy way to deal with a number we know nothing about it, but it works. Same thing we did when we wanted to know how to deal with this a + b = 0. We will just call b = -a.

I agree Absane - we just give it a name, without conceptualising it, which is a very pussy way of dealing with a number. It could be objected that we are just playing with concepts, but a very practical example might be the exact ratio of the radius to circumference of a circle. Once we get onto transcendental numbers etc. I'm sure there are loads of non-existent quantities existing. :bugeye:

So, do they exist (we can see their effects) as non-existences?

heehee, those are just small neutron stars!!

OK it's not in the Universe, and actually, there may be "branes" out there in the multidimensional multiverse.

ye, and what would be beyond those branes then?

So, if you walked i kilometers North, where would you get to?

well, i don't really understand anything about that i thing, i was just giving you a common answer because i don't know what you meant with -1.

Do you will all your thoughts into existence? That must be a strain!

the will is not always fully conscious.

Don't thoughts just spontaneously arise from something else, but what is that something?

will comes from nothingness, thoughts come from will and concentration. thoughts don't always come from our own person though, mental waves travel all around us and sometimes many people can get affected by the same thoughts (like in religion)

So, do they qualify?
No. They are something. Maybe there's nothingness in its layers...

No. They are something. Maybe there's nothingness in its layers...

I'm disappointed TruthSeeker! ...nothingness in it's layers? Umm - broody chickens? ;)

will comes from nothingness, thoughts come from will and concentration. thoughts don't always come from our own person though, mental waves travel all around us and sometimes many people can get affected by the same thoughts (like in religion)
That's just what I was thinking... Spooooky! :m:

No.

It seems to be a maxim in Western philosophy that nothing does not exist, and that nothing comes from nothing.

Parmenides said that all Reality is essentially One unchanging Being, and that change is an illusion. He also remarked that because Being exists everywhere, there isn't anywhere where there isn't 'something' and the void, like change, is illusory.

Aristotle and Plato also argued against the existence of vacuums and voids in nature, essentially on the grounds that to Plato it made little sense that non-being was real because non-being was not really a 'something' at all but rather a form of privation of true reality, which were the eternal Forms. Aristotle believed that the idea of a vacuum or void made little sense on his belief that the universe could not be devoid of substances, and also on his belief the universe was finite and hence had no 'gaps.'

In Neo-Platonic and Scholastic Philosophy, similar arguments were given against the existence of a void. The main objection to the idea of nothingness was that Augustine (the founding father of Christian philosophy) identified God as pure, essential and infinite Being, perfect and with no defects. In Augustine's view, God's essence filled the entire universe and 'nothing' was only applicable to all created things, whose own being was on loan from God. Similarly, the Neo-Platonists identified Goodness as the fullness and infinity of Being.

However, sometimes also God or supreme reality was viewed as a sort of nothingness. Dionysius the Aeropagite, using Plotinus and Proclus, identified God as the 'One' which was so transcendant from all Being that effectively it was nothing, an infinite nothingness. John Scotus Eriugena took up this line of argument and developed a very elaborate philosophy which argued both God and nature were not really Beings at all, but rather a sort of transcendant nothingness which creates itself into Being.

In Eastern Philosophy, Buddhism developed the idea of 'shunyata' or 'Emptiness.' While the Buddha himself probably didn't teach such a doctrine, he did argue there was no eternal self or being, and that everything in the universe comes into being and then vanishes. Nagarjuna, the great Buddhist philosopher, taught that Shunyata was also somehow the source of reality, while being careful not to argue Shunyata itself was either a Being or a nothing, as neither concept accurately describes the Real.

Islamic and Jewish Philosophy tended to also emphasize God's being, however some forms of mystical Kabbalah and Sufism in Islam also describe God as being a transcendant not-being because God's being is so radically infinite no being (including the universe itself) approaches God's reality.

With the rise of empirical Science in the West the idea of the void as well as creation from nothing became more respectable. Discoveries in Astronomy (such as the vast distances of stars), Chemistry (the atomic hypothesis and the theories of gas) and physics (quantum mechanics) showed how things could come into being from nothing. The Big Bang theory of cosmology, now widely accepted in Science, is perhaps the pinnacle of this.

I certainly think the concept of not-being and nothingness deserves much further philosophical analysis and examination than it has been granted in Western philosophy. In this sense we can learn positively from the Buddhist philosophers, who have gone to great depths to try and fathom the meaning of not-being and what the universe means if it comes from nothing.