Hello,

There has been a long standing debate between Muslims and Christians on the topic of Jesus being God or not. So my question is really simple. Does Jesus (pbuh) ever claim to be God?. If you intend to answer this question please provide a quote from the Bible to support your claim.

If you read the topic carefully then you would recognize that I am asking a quote from the Bible in which Jesus (pbuh), himself, claims to be God.

Question is: Does Jesus (pbuh) ever claim to be God?

Peace be unto you :)

There is no god! Jesus was the bastard son of a roman rapist!
Hail atheism!
And what the hell, hail Satan too, yeeeaarrgh!!!

Oh, Lou.

Dear 786,

There are several references which come to mind. In one instance Jesus says "I and the Father are One". In another episode Jesus angered the Pharisees by using the phrase "I Am" which is how God had identified Himself to Moses.

These could have been expressions of Mystical Unity with God. Every Spiritualist, Zen, Yogin, and Meditator knows that if one can retain Consciousness after suspending all awareness of Ego and Self, the only thing that remains is God Consciousness. Does having an Experience of God Consciousness make one God? Strictly speaking, no. Only by the most Pantheistic definition of God, that is, supposing God One with All Things, could one get away with claiming to be God, since there would be no such thing as anything Not-God. But as we ordinarily understand things, having the experience of God, though extremely special, does not make one God, or equal to God.

But it is significant of Christianity that it does seem to encourage the Mystical Experience if one is in the least open to it. Islam, though, seems very contrary to Mysticism. The Sufi Orders that exist within the framework of Islam, though they had originated in the time of Zoroastrian Religious Beliefs, are very Mystical but this has often created friction between them and the Fundamentalist Muslims who had repeatedly throughout their History outlawed the Sufi Orders and didn't hesitate to murder Sufi Mystics who had publically claimed to have experienced God Consciousness.

Was Jesus God. No. Jesus was Son of Mary who as the Immaculate Conception was like the Second Eve. This made Jesus the Perfect Man, like the Original Adam, but without the Sin or the Curse to slow Him down. The most we can say for Christ was that He was Son of God.

Paul's Doctrine of Redemption, though, required Jesus to be God so that the Blood of Jesus could justifiably have the Potency to Save Humanity of all Sin. After the claim was made that Christ's Death was possessed of such an Infinite Power, than there was no choice but to make Jesus into a Second God. One lie leads to another.

Dear 786,

There are several references which come to mind. In one instance Jesus says "I and the Father are One". In another episode Jesus angered the Pharisees by using the phrase "I Am" which is how God had identified Himself to Moses.

These could have been expressions of Mystical Unity with God. Every Spiritualist, Zen, Yogin, and Meditator knows that if one can retain Consciousness after suspending all awareness of Ego and Self, the only thing that remains is God Consciousness. Does having an Experience of God Consciousness make one God? Strictly speaking, no. Only by the most Pantheistic definition of God, that is, supposing God One with All Things, could one get away with claiming to be God, since there would be no such thing as anything Not-God. But as we ordinarily understand things, having the experience of God, though extremely special, does not make one God, or equal to God.

But it is significant of Christianity that it does seem to encourage the Mystical Experience if one is in the least open to it. Islam, though, seems very contrary to Mysticism. The Sufi Orders that exist within the framework of Islam, though they had originated in the time of Zoroastrian Religious Beliefs, are very Mystical but this has often created friction between them and the Fundamentalist Muslims who had repeatedly throughout their History outlawed the Sufi Orders and didn't hesitate to murder Sufi Mystics who had publically claimed to have experienced God Consciousness.

Was Jesus God. No. Jesus was Son of Mary who as the Immaculate Conception was like the Second Eve. This made Jesus the Perfect Man, like the Original Adam, but without the Sin or the Curse to slow Him down. The most we can say for Christ was that He was Son of God.

Paul's Doctrine of Redemption, though, required Jesus to be God so that the Blood of Jesus could justifiably have the Potency to Save Humanity of all Sin. After the claim was made that Christ's Death was possessed of such an Infinite Power, than there was no choice but to make Jesus into a Second God. One lie leads to another.

Thanks for the reply.

What do you believe? You say that Jesus is Not a God. Then you say Jesus is the Son of God. Then you say that Jesus being a God was a lie spread by Paul.

Could you make yourself clearer in what you yourself believe.

As for the quotes you have presented I shall provide a response to them in my next post.

Peace be unto you :)

Dear 786,

There are several references which come to mind. In one instance Jesus says "I and the Father are One".

JOHN 10:30 "I and the Father are one [hen]." (NASU)

What did he mean by this declaration? Was he proclaiming that he was co-equal and co-eternal with the Father? Was Jesus saying that he and the Father were of the same essence or substance? Just what exactly was he trying to convey?

First, let's look at the Greek word hen (one).

In Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament, the late Professor Vincent states that hen, the Greek word translated "one" in John 10:30, is "the neuter, not the masculine είς, one person" (p. 197, vol. II).

Regarding this statement by Jesus, the Abingdon Bible Commentary says: "V. 30 does not affirm a metaphysical unity, but a moral, and we must not read the later creeds into the words" (p. 1079).

In A Commentary, Critical, Experimental, and Practical, Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown write of this verse:

Our language admits not of the precision of the original in this great saying, 'We (two Persons) are One (Thing).' Perhaps 'one interest' expresses nearly, though not quite, the purport of the saying. (p. 414, vol. III, part I)

The use of hen in John 10:30 clearly indicates that Jesus was not claiming that he and the Father were the same being. An examination of how the same Greek word hen ("one") is used in other Scriptures will help us see what Christ did intend to convey by his statement.

Let's look at Jesus's prayer to the Father on the night before his crucifixion. In this supplication, he speaks several times of the state of being "one":

JOHN 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be ONE [hen] even as We are. (NASU)

Here Jesus prays that God the Father would keep his disciples in His name.

How was it possible for Jesus's disciples to be ONE in the same way that Jesus and the Father were ONE? Are you saying that Jesus is asking to make the desciples part of the Trinity? I think you and me, and everyone else knows that that answer is NO!. Well lets not stop here. A litte later. Jesus is praying and says:

JOHN 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in me through their word; 21 that they all may be ONE [hen], as You, Father, are in me, and I in You; that they also may be ONE [hen] in us, that the world may believe that You sent me. 22 And the glory which You gave me I have given them, that they may be ONE [hen] just as we are ONE [hen]: 23 I in them, and You in me; that they may be made perfect in one [eis], and that the world may know that You have sent me, and have loved them as You have loved me." (NKJV)

I think it is very clear. We now know how Jesus and Father were ONE. One in message, I would say.

In another episode Jesus angered the Pharisees by using the phrase "I Am" which is how God had identified Himself to Moses.

This is just playing word games. This is similar to.

When Jews were doubtful about the identity of a particular blind
beggar who had been healed by Jesus, the blind beggar - who was no
more blind, kept saying; "I am (he)" (John 9:9, K.J.V.). Does that
make the blind beggar, God!

Really now tell me God said "I AM" the beggar said "I am" both God right?

Peace be unto you :)

Note: Try this thread, in which I have answered many quotes. I provide this so the same verses are not repeated.http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=30133

the major source of confusion for a-theist and theist alike regarding whether 'Jesus'
was really 'God' comes from them not looking behind the curtain...not anting to, or dismissing plausible ideas that offer substantial clues

Read The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, by J.Allegro
He shows thgat Jesus wasn't A man who was God. which is truly absured. as absurd as 'virgin births' and walking on water etc. His name 'Chrestos' referred to an hallucinogenic mushroom. This mushoom was believed by the patriarcjhal mystics to be totally connected with a sky god....for example see the associations. the phallic shape of the mushroom; not having microscopes they believed shrooms were born virginally, especially after thunder storms.....etc., read it

this insight is also commensurate with pagan mythos from where Christianist got many of its mythological motifs....of the god~man son of Goddess, who was also the hallucinogenic sacrament!

The major difference between these EARTh religions, and their interpretation via Judaic christianity is that the latter dogmatized the 'son' was of the 'FATHER'...not Mother. this is a crucial transpition. no little thing. because the sky god wasn't immanent like the ancient idea of Goddess. so from Juadic Christianity we get this dissociative psychological confusion---away from body/sexuality and Nature

Of course the people follwing christinity dont even get the secret intiiaroy meaning of sacrament in actual experience (even with its dodgy dogma), they get empty symbolism and useless sacraments

chrlistians need to make there mind up about jesus,is he man, son of god, or god him self ? when jesus is shown to have done miracles,they say that proves he was god, but when he is shown to have done ungodly things,they say that was the "man" part of god... there is no stopping to the continous lies we get told to make him seem like god, either he is man or god and if he is god,then how does that make him the son of the same god ?? its damn confusing,

If he is GOD then why does he need to worship GOD (in the bible) and if god has a son, then that makes 2 gods !!!!

786,

Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all depend heavily on the Old Testament as a basis for their varying concepts. A key tenet of the OT is that there is ONLY ONE GOD, and all three religions accept this.

This gives Christianity a considerable problem since their alleged savior is a separate entity from the essential single godhead, and only God can forgive sins and bestow life etc. In an attempt to resolve this somewhat obvious paradox Christians created the incongruity known as the trinity concept. Rather than accept that they had made a rather obvious mistake and that JC could not be a god, instead they simply asserted that God and Jesus are one and the same thing and still insisted that there is only one god. The result is an absurdity.

But Leo points out that the only certain thing that can be said about JC is that he is the Son of God. That of course doesn’t solve anything since again rather obviously a son of a god is yet another god and that defies the accepted tenet that there is ONLY ONE GOD.

In this regard at least Islam is more internally consistent by insisting that Jesus could only have been a prophet and that there is only one god. The bible is ambiguous and skirts around the issue of Jesus being god and it was some 300 years later long after the NT books were written that the Trinity concept was invented in the hope of resolving the conflicts that were dogging early Christianity.

Cris

If Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, then how many chromosomes does he have?

If 46, did he get all from Mary? If so, then he wasn't a god at all, but a clone. A clone of a human.

I've always heard that "Son of God" could be translated to mean" Servant of God" in Hebrew but I do know also that David(pbuh) was also called God's "Begotten Son" which kinda fly's in the face of John 3:16



Psalms 2:7


7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8




John 3:16



16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.




also:



In Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn Israel was called God's First Son.

In Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Ephraim is God's First Son and First Born.




Son's of God in those verses seem to mean Servant to me :confused: but maybe a Christian can answer better than me......its not my intention to disrespect their beliefs.........peace :m:

I am atheist and I am posting this just because you said you did not want atheists posting.

Thanks for the reply.

What do you believe? You say that Jesus is Not a God. Then you say Jesus is the Son of God. Then you say that Jesus being a God was a lie spread by Paul.

Could you make yourself clearer in what you yourself believe.

As for the quotes you have presented I shall provide a response to them in my next post.

Peace be unto you :)

A Philosopher once said that intelligence shows itself in the ability to refine catagories. You seem to think 'God' and 'Son of God' resolves to the very same thing. If you were a bit smarter, you wouldn't think so.

Regarding the Spiritual Status of Jesus, as I said, being the Son of the Immaculate Conception He was effectively the Second Adam -- the Perfect Spiritual Man. As the Perfect Spiritual Man He was able to achieve a Mystical Identity with God -- a sharing of Consciousness. Sharing a Consciousness does not make Jesus into God, as God retains His Oneness even when He shares it. However, for the rest of us, a Person who is participating in God Consciousness is in effect an Extension of God.

The biggest mistake in Theological History was the formulation of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Yes, the Apologists for the Doctrine are able to eventually erect a huge house of cards argument that finally arrives at the point where Divinity is resolved into One Divine Nature, to bring us back to Monotheism. But it is complicated and tenuous and leaves us at first appearances thinking that there are Three Gods and that some historical man is tantamount to God the Creator. People are too shocked at the Blasphemy of it to ever have patience with the long apologizing argument. It would have been better to explain Christ's Holiness as I have, that it was an extension of Divinity into Christ by the Grace of God -- a participation in God and not a usurpation of Divinity.

I am atheist and I am posting this just because you said you did not want atheists posting.

Didn't we mention that we did NOT want Atheists to fornicate themselves and then throw themselves off a bridge.

Leo, you surprise me - you've always defended all the most outré practices of the Catholic faith, of which I would have thought the belief in the Trinity was one of the chief tenets. I'm quite sure that when Catholics recite "begotten, not made" they are acknowledging Jesus as the only "begotten" son of God - "God from God, light from light, True God from True God", and consequently dismiss any description of David as begotten in the same way. Particularly as David is the son of Jesse, as has been pointed out.

As has been said, the only gospel to explicitly use the Jesus/God duality (or one-ality) is the late composed, non-synoptic, philosophic rather than reportage, John.

The Q-based Gospels make reference to Jesus referring to himself as "the Son of Man", but this is probably just an idiomatic way of saying "me." "Who want's a drink?" "This mother's son does!", that kind of thing. Burton Mack's Q: The Lost Gospel ascribes the earliest Jesus quotes as reflecting the Cynic philosophy, and Cynics often used the "son of man" formula. So Son of Man doesn't really mean Son of God in the way it's often taken.

My personal belief is that Jesus never did personally claim to be one with God. But the Bible is subject to interpretation, including the meaning of words like hen. It is this interpretation from which the established Church makes its doctrine.

Sorry 786 for having also breached the "No Atheists" rule, but as Godless once said which applies also to me, "I know much more about the Bible now I'm an atheist than when I believed." I'm not claiming special knowledge, though, I just wanted to participate in the debate.

Jesus’ real dad was Joseph, in the context of the text; or myths. In Mathew and Luke they DIRECTLY trace Yeshua-Netser; Jesus back to the Jesse-Branch ("Netser"=branch of; or blood-line). Jesse begot king David, begot, begot, etc, Joseph, father of Yeshua, the Jews trace lineage through the male counter-part; not female (the bible is a patriarchal book, its context is almost always male).

This is not even debatable, it is in the book.You've put your finger on the one genuine non-debatable piece of fiction in the New Testament. Matthew and Luke only agree as far as David. But Matthew says that Jesus was descended through Solomon, and Luke says that Jesus was descended through Nathan - a different son of David. So one of them made it up. And as far as I know, the standard apologetic for this is that one gives the descent through the male line and the other through the female line (so that despite it saying "the father of Joseph" it really meant, of Heli I think, "the father-in-law of Joseph") which would actively deny your point about patriarchy.

I wrote a biblical reply with quotes from Scripture, and as I was getting ready to post it, it just disappeared. How is this?

The Scripture references were Romans 3:3; Philippians 2:10,11; Psalm 2::3; Isaiah 9:6. You may fill in the connections; but let me repeat this much: Jesus Christ is the Prince of Peace, and there will be no peace until men will let Him rule and reign in each and every heart, no matter what one's religion may teach. By the way, atheism is a religion which takes more faith to adhere to its tenants than it does to believe God and His Word.

" Drink this wine, for it is my blood"
" Eat this bread for it is my body "

...cant you see it ? we are God

Jesus was a beautiful man that brought the future to the present.

"By the way, atheism is a religion which takes more faith to adhere to its tenants than it does to believe God and His Word."

How can atheism possibly be a religion?

a-theist: without a god.

That's like saying an a-unicornist really has more faith to adhere to the tenants of disbelief of unicorns than a unicornist.

I think you simply want atheism to be a religion and that you want to believe that an atheist has to work harder at disbelief than a member of one of the theistic cults does. It couldn't be further from the truth.

The Scripture references were Romans 3:3; Philippians 2:10,11; Psalm 2::3; Isaiah 9:6. You may fill in the connections; but let me repeat this much: Jesus Christ is the Prince of Peace, and there will be no peace until men will let Him rule and reign in each and every heart, no matter what one's religion may teach. By the way, atheism is a religion which takes more faith to adhere to its tenants than it does to believe God and His Word.

All of your verses are NOT by Jesus (pbuh). I am looking for verses where Jesus (pbuh) claims to be God.

While you look for verses in which Jesus (pbuh) claims to be God, consider the following verses.

The following are EXPLICIT verses which JESUS HIMSELF has said.

*Note- Considering the notion of equality with God.

1. "...I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I."
John.14:28

2. "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every
man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of
Christ." 1 Corin. 11:3

3. "Behold, My servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My
soul is well pleased; I will put My Spirit upon him, and he shall
proclaim justice to the Gentiles." Matthew 12:18

4. "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers,
has glorified His Servant Jesus..." Acts 3:13.

5. "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy
holy Servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint..." Acts 4:27.

6. "For you first, God raised up His Servant, and sent him to bless
you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways." Acts 3:26

7. "And you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God."
1 Corin 3:23.

8. "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee the only true
God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." John 17:3

9. "And Jesus said to him, `Why do you call me good? No one is good
except God alone." Mark 10:18

10. "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of
heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Matthew 24:36

11. "Jesus said to her, `Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet
ascended to the Father; but go to my bretheren, and say to them,
`I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"
John 20:17

12. "And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and he
knelt down and began to pray, saying, `Father, if Thou art willing,
remove this cup from me; yet not my will, but Thine be done."
Luke 22:41-42

The provided verse leave no doubt that Jesus (pbuh) didn't consider himself God, but rather a servant of God.

Peace be unto you :)

Absolutely,

He said before Abraham was "I am" literally Jehovah, literally Jesus equates himself with Jehovah. For whcih the Jews sought to stone him.

Phillipians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

In Genesis 1 God in the plural says the earth was created.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal and the same. There is no jealousy in the God-head.

Q.E.D.

I wonder if God-head is better than regular head?

absolutely, "two heads are better than one" . how about three heads?

With the name "Woody," I'd have thought that innuendo wouldn't have gone over your head (no pun intended).

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I guess they didn't know about sciforums where there is always controversy. :D

Nobody expected you to understand it ithopal.

Nobody expected you to understand it either SkinWalker.

That's why this thread was supposed to be for nonathiests.

" this thread was supposed to be for nonathiests."

I don't bend a knee to a god, why should I to the original poster? :cool:

Absolutely,

He said before Abraham was "I am" literally Jehovah, literally Jesus equates himself with Jehovah. For whcih the Jews sought to stone him.

This is just playing word games. This is similar to.

When Jews were doubtful about the identity of a particular blind
beggar who had been healed by Jesus, the blind beggar - who was no
more blind, kept saying; "I am (he)" (John 9:9, K.J.V.). Does that
make the blind beggar, God!

Really now tell me God said "I AM" the beggar said "I am" both God right?

As for the stoning part.

You must remember that the Jews stoned many prophets, did they claim to be God Almighty?

Even Jesus (pbuh) says that the Jews "stonest" the prophets.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (From the KJV Bible, Matthew 23:37)"

The question is were the prophets claiming to be God? If not then why were they stoned?

The simple answer is that the prophets never claimed to be God, they were stoned by the Jews because the Jews never accepted their message. Jesus (pbuh) is no different.

Phillipians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Like the rest of us, Christ was fully human and had the outward form (morphe), of a human. However, because he always did the Father’s will and demonstrated godly behavior and obedience, he therefore had the outward “appearance” (morphe) of God also. Also, like the rest of us, his appearance (schema) regularly changed. Thus, in Philippians, 2:8 schema can be synonymous with morphe, or it can place an emphasis on the fact that the appearance Christ had as a human being was transitory in nature. The wording of Philippians 2:6-8 does not present us with a God-man, with whom none of us can identify. Rather, it presents us with a man just like we are, who grew and aged, yet who was so focused on God in every thought and deed that he perfectly represented the Father.

After saying that Christ was in the form of God, Philippians 2:6 goes on to say that Christ “did not consider equality with God something to be grasped” (NIV). This phrase is a powerful argument against the Trinity. If Jesus were God, then it would make no sense at all to say that he did not “grasp” at equality with God because no one grasps at equality with himself. It only makes sense to compliment someone for not seeking equality when he is not equal. Some Trinitarians say, “Well, he was not grasping for equality with the Father.” That is not what the verse says. It says Christ did not grasp at equality with God, which makes the verse nonsense if he were God.

In Genesis 1 God in the plural says the earth was created.

Then why in the whole world none of the Bible's translate the verse by using the word "Gods". The Hebrew language has the plural of respect.

The Hebrew word is "Elohim" the "im" is a plural of respect.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal and the same. There is no jealousy in the God-head.

Q.E.D.

You fail to prove that Jesus (pbuh) is God let alone the doctrine of Trinity.

Peace be unto you :)

Obviously the plural form of El refers to the rest of the Canaanite pantheon from which Judeo-Christian gods are derived.

El was the head of the gods and father of all the gods (except Baal) as well as consort to Athirat.

Much of the two main texts that exist in Genesis have their origins in the Canaanite pantheon. The early Jewish priests probably faced a dilemma in separating their people from the others in the region and creating a new, true religion. That was how to offer something that was new without being too different. The people were familiar with the Canaanite gods and worshipped them, so by saying "Elohim," the Jewish priests were able to offer authority and credibility.

...cant you see it ? we are God

OH MY GOD !!!!! what are u saying :eek:

Jesus was a beautiful man that brought the future to the present

Yes he was, so it dosent make him the son of god.

Jesus said, "O Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." - (Matt. 26:39-42)

Peace be with you, Paul

Jesus was not received very kindly by the religious and powerful of his day. The chief priests and officers answered to Pilate, "We have a law, and by our law He ought to die, because He made himself the SON OF GOD" - (John 19:7).

Peace be with you, Paul

I know exactly what Jesus meant when he said that he and God are one. There's nothing weird about that.

If the theists have had their say, may I point out that Jesus didn't write the bible, or anything else that we know of.

So, he may be God, but that doesn't mean that you aren't too. One should recognize the need of the early Christian church to solidify it's authority by declaring Jesus a freak, and them as his only representative.

Did Jesus ever claim to be God?



The argument that Jesus never claimed to be God is bogus. If Jesus never claimed to be God, then why was he tried on charges of blasphemy?



The best known verse in the Bible is John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



This passage tells us that God gave His only Son. This indicates that God only had one Son and that he had been given. What makes this statement so important is that God didn’t say He would give His Son, but that the Son had already been given. The second issue with this passage is Jesus was speaking. If he wasn’t the Son of God, why didn’t he tell the disciples who the Son of God was?



For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18



Jesus continues in the next two verses to tell the people that if they did not believe in the name of the Son of God they would perish. If Jesus was not referencing himself in these passages, and eternity was riding on this name, surely someone would have demanded that name be revealed. In Acts 4:12, Luke says that there is only one name that a person is saved by, and that is Jesus. During the life of Jesus he had to have claimed He was God, or these passages are without meaning if you assumed that they didn’t know that his name was in fact Jesus Christ.



Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. Acts 4:12-13



Jesus wanted his disciples to be clear on who he was. He point blank asked His disciples this question, “Who do men say that I am?” The answer was not revealed by worldly wisdom, but from heavenly intervention.



When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Mat. 16:13-17



With this much evidence one has to ask how did this “Jesus never claimed to be God” get started?

When Jesus refers to himself in the scripture he does it by his human title Son of Man. So those who try to attack the deity of Christ claim these references as declarations of his humanity and a denial of his deity. Jesus never denied His deity by recognizing his humanity.



Just for the sake of argument let us suppose that Jesus Himself never claimed to be the Son of God. There are others in the Bible who did.





1. The prophets knew He would be God



Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Mat. 1:22-23



2. The disciples acknowledged it



And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased. Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. Mat. 14:32-33



If Jesus was not God why didn’t he rebuke them for worshipping Him?



3. God revealed it to Peter.



And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Mat. 16:16-17



4. The guards knew He was the Son of God.



Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. Mat. 27:54



5. The devils knew He was the Son of God.



….there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? Mat. 8:28-29





Only God can torment devils.



6. God proclaimed that Jesus was the Son of God.



And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Mat. 3:16-17



Jesus proved he was God when He forgave sin. If only God could forgive sin, Jesus must be God.

And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. Mat. 9:2-3



It is important to note that it was the religious leaders of Jesus’ day that claimed he blasphemed. The religious leaders understood that only God could forgive sin. Let me illustrate this in a way you can understand. If I hit you, I cannot ask forgiveness from your friend. Only you can forgive me because I transgressed against you. When Jesus said He forgave this man’s sins he claimed that the sick man had transgressed against him personally.



It has always been Satan’s desire to discredit Jesus as the Son of God. Satan’s purpose is clear; if there is only one name given among men whereby someone could be saved he has to corrupt mankind’s view of the name of Jesus.

Did Jesus ever claim to be God?



The argument that Jesus never claimed to be God is bogus. If Jesus never claimed to be God, then why was he tried on charges of blasphemy?



The best known verse in the Bible is John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



This passage tells us that God gave His only Son. This indicates that God only had one Son and that he had been given. What makes this statement so important is that God didn’t say He would give His Son, but that the Son had already been given. The second issue with this passage is Jesus was speaking. If he wasn’t the Son of God, why didn’t he tell the disciples who the Son of God was?



For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18



Jesus continues in the next two verses to tell the people that if they did not believe in the name of the Son of God they would perish. If Jesus was not referencing himself in these passages, and eternity was riding on this name, surely someone would have demanded that name be revealed. In Acts 4:12, Luke says that there is only one name that a person is saved by, and that is Jesus. During the life of Jesus he had to have claimed He was God, or these passages are without meaning if you assumed that they didn’t know that his name was in fact Jesus Christ.



Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. Acts 4:12-13



Jesus wanted his disciples to be clear on who he was. He point blank asked His disciples this question, “Who do men say that I am?” The answer was not revealed by worldly wisdom, but from heavenly intervention.



When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Mat. 16:13-17



With this much evidence one has to ask how did this “Jesus never claimed to be God” get started?

When Jesus refers to himself in the scripture he does it by his human title Son of Man. So those who try to attack the deity of Christ claim these references as declarations of his humanity and a denial of his deity. Jesus never denied His deity by recognizing his humanity.



Just for the sake of argument let us suppose that Jesus Himself never claimed to be the Son of God. There are others in the Bible who did.





1. The prophets knew He would be God



Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Mat. 1:22-23



2. The disciples acknowledged it



And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased. Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. Mat. 14:32-33



If Jesus was not God why didn’t he rebuke them for worshipping Him?



3. God revealed it to Peter.



And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Mat. 16:16-17



4. The guards knew He was the Son of God.



Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. Mat. 27:54



5. The devils knew He was the Son of God.



….there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? Mat. 8:28-29





Only God can torment devils.



6. God proclaimed that Jesus was the Son of God.



And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Mat. 3:16-17



Jesus proved he was God when He forgave sin. If only God could forgive sin, Jesus must be God.

And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. Mat. 9:2-3



It is important to note that it was the religious leaders of Jesus’ day that claimed he blasphemed. The religious leaders understood that only God could forgive sin. Let me illustrate this in a way you can understand. If I hit you, I cannot ask forgiveness from your friend. Only you can forgive me because I transgressed against you. When Jesus said He forgave this man’s sins he claimed that the sick man had transgressed against him personally.



It has always been Satan’s desire to discredit Jesus as the Son of God. Satan’s purpose is clear; if there is only one name given among men whereby someone could be saved he has to corrupt mankind’s view of the name of Jesus.

Do you ever read the answers I have given? Must I ALWAYS repeat my answer to everyone who asks about the SAME VERSE again and again.

It has always been Satan's desire to mislead humans. Satan's purpose is clear: if there is only God who can save us, he corrupt's makind's view of a man to elevate him to the status which he was not.

Peace be unto you :)

Hi,

Okay I want to continue. Are there any verses unanswered? (Please please don't repeat the verses especially John 10:30 :D )

Peace be unto you :)

(Please please don't repeat the verses especially John 10:30 :D )

Why not? that's the one where he says that he is one with god. god speaks through his body. the self speaks through his body. he just meant that he had found himself (the real self... is the same as what religions call god)

Are you muslim.. cool. there are not many here.

Jesus had the consciousness of God (hence, I and my father are one)

However, Jesus was in a material body, which is why he is called the son of God. Remember, according to Jesus, Satan is the ruler of this world (material world), and the Kingdom of God isn't visible, it is within you (the observer).

If Jesus never claimed to be God, then why was he tried on charges of blasphemy?
Because he said e was the king of the Jews, the fulfillment of the prophesy that the savior of man (not God) would come to earth.

Jesus did not ever claim that he was God.
It was interpreted that way in various ways by various apologists, but Jesus never did claim to be God.
He DID claim to be the son of God (just as he said that all mankind were the children of God), but never that he WAS God.
In fact, it is quite clear that he didn't believe that he WAS God or he wouldn't have spoken to himself on multiple occasions.

yes, Jesus quite clearly is a God (regardless of whether this is Jesus the person or Jesus the fictional character). and i can prove it

Humans give birth to baby humans
Dogs give birth to baby dogs
Gods give brith to baby Gods...

The question, though, is whether or not he claimed such in the Bible.

Hello,

There has been a long standing debate between Muslims and Christians on the topic of Jesus being God or not. So my question is really simple. Does Jesus (pbuh) ever claim to be God?. If you intend to answer this question please provide a quote from the Bible to support your claim.

If you read the topic carefully then you would recognize that I am asking a quote from the Bible in which Jesus (pbuh), himself, claims to be God.

Question is: Does Jesus (pbuh) ever claim to be God?

Peace be unto you :)Matthew 22

41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42"What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied.
43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet." '45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.



Jesus often use the terms 'Father' for God and 'Son' for Himself, thus it's a easy step to conclude He is Gods Son.

An example:
Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.



Since the trinity is a complicated concept I can only give examples where they are very "connected":

19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Why not? that's the one where he says that he is one with god. god speaks through his body. the self speaks through his body. he just meant that he had found himself (the real self... is the same as what religions call god)

Are you muslim.. cool. there are not many here.

Hey,

The reason I specifically said not to repeat john 10:30 is because it is the most repeated verse, that I have to reply again and again to. I give my answer but then someone pops up who isn't following the whole thread and gives me John 10:30 for the proof, then I reply again, and then someone else comes up and uses the same verse. It gets annoying after a while :D . So to the answer of this verse search the first couple of pages, since it usually is the FIRST verse to be asked (usually).

Peace be unto you :)

yes, Jesus quite clearly is a God (regardless of whether this is Jesus the person or Jesus the fictional character). and i can prove it

Humans give birth to baby humans
Dogs give birth to baby dogs
Gods give brith to baby Gods...

Yeahhhhhhhhhh......... Did you read my opening post :confused: .

Oh well.

Peace be unto you :)

Hello,

There has been a long standing debate between Muslims and Christians on the topic of Jesus being God or not. So my question is really simple. Does Jesus (pbuh) ever claim to be God?. If you intend to answer this question please provide a quote from the Bible to support your claim.

If you read the topic carefully then you would recognize that I am asking a quote from the Bible in which Jesus (pbuh), himself, claims to be God.

Question is: Does Jesus (pbuh) ever claim to be God?

Peace be unto you :)I haven't found a passage in which He claims to be God, but He did claim that He was Gods Son, which I think is necessary to understand the trinity, but as it also says the Son only does what God shows Him, what God does He does, thus being "as if" they were one person, with one will. Since Jesus indeed was Gods Son, we could very well do the leap that He Himself is also God, since they have the same nature and since Jesus is the "bridge" that connects God with us.

Also it says that Jesus was before us, and Jesus talks about the glory He had before the world was made (which indeed gives Him God status :) ).

" Drink this wine, for it is my blood"
" Eat this bread for it is my body "

...cant you see it ? we are God

Jesus was a beautiful man that brought the future to the present.
Brilliant.

JOHN 10:30 "I and the Father are one [hen]." (NASU)

What did he mean by this declaration? Was he proclaiming that he was co-equal and co-eternal with the Father? Was Jesus saying that he and the Father were of the same essence or substance? Just what exactly was he trying to convey?

First, let's look at the Greek word hen (one).

In Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament, the late Professor Vincent states that hen, the Greek word translated "one" in John 10:30, is "the neuter, not the masculine είς, one person" (p. 197, vol. II).

Regarding this statement by Jesus, the Abingdon Bible Commentary says: "V. 30 does not affirm a metaphysical unity, but a moral, and we must not read the later creeds into the words" (p. 1079).

In A Commentary, Critical, Experimental, and Practical, Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown write of this verse:

Our language admits not of the precision of the original in this great saying, 'We (two Persons) are One (Thing).' Perhaps 'one interest' expresses nearly, though not quite, the purport of the saying. (p. 414, vol. III, part I)

The use of hen in John 10:30 clearly indicates that Jesus was not claiming that he and the Father were the same being. An examination of how the same Greek word hen ("one") is used in other Scriptures will help us see what Christ did intend to convey by his statement.

Let's look at Jesus's prayer to the Father on the night before his crucifixion. In this supplication, he speaks several times of the state of being "one":

JOHN 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be ONE [hen] even as We are. (NASU)

Here Jesus prays that God the Father would keep his disciples in His name.

How was it possible for Jesus's disciples to be ONE in the same way that Jesus and the Father were ONE? Are you saying that Jesus is asking to make the desciples part of the Trinity? I think you and me, and everyone else knows that that answer is NO!. Well lets not stop here. A litte later. Jesus is praying and says:

JOHN 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in me through their word; 21 that they all may be ONE [hen], as You, Father, are in me, and I in You; that they also may be ONE [hen] in us, that the world may believe that You sent me. 22 And the glory which You gave me I have given them, that they may be ONE [hen] just as we are ONE [hen]: 23 I in them, and You in me; that they may be made perfect in one [eis], and that the world may know that You have sent me, and have loved them as You have loved me." (NKJV)

I think it is very clear. We now know how Jesus and Father were ONE. One in message, I would say.



This is just playing word games. This is similar to.

When Jews were doubtful about the identity of a particular blind
beggar who had been healed by Jesus, the blind beggar - who was no
more blind, kept saying; "I am (he)" (John 9:9, K.J.V.). Does that
make the blind beggar, God!

Really now tell me God said "I AM" the beggar said "I am" both God right?

Peace be unto you :)

Note: Try this thread, in which I have answered many quotes. I provide this so the same verses are not repeated.http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=30133
Also Brilliant. :cool:

"Son of God" means someone that follows God's commandments, someone that follows the path of peace.

Matthew 5:9
"9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God."


786, you are an extremely valuable rarity. Please keep posting. :)

God doesn't exist. Jesus was the product of premarital coitus between Mary and Joseph, if he even existed, anyway.
Plus, the real name isn't actually "jesus", that's just a muddled mistranslation of his aramaic name, which was "Yeshua" or "Joseph". He was named after his father, like many peoples within the Roman Empire.

I haven't found a passage in which He claims to be God, but He did claim that He was Gods Son, which I think is necessary to understand the trinity, but as it also says the Son only does what God shows Him, what God does He does, thus being "as if" they were one person, with one will. Since Jesus indeed was Gods Son, we could very well do the leap that He Himself is also God, since they have the same nature and since Jesus is the "bridge" that connects God with us.

Also it says that Jesus was before us, and Jesus talks about the glory He had before the world was made (which indeed gives Him God status :) ).

Hi the reason you haven't found a passage is because there is none :D

Truthseeker has answered the "Son of God" part very briefly. (Thruthseeker- Thanks man I appreciate that)

Now look I can try to prove your point wrong as I have done with many other people. You can give me your verses first, the reason is because sometimes the verse is misunderstood, and also the context of the verse is really important in most cases.

But I will save you the time to not even give me those verses. Just read the following.

1. "...I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I."
John.14:28

2. "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every
man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of
Christ." 1 Corin. 11:3

3. "Behold, My servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My
soul is well pleased; I will put My Spirit upon him, and he shall
proclaim justice to the Gentiles." Matthew 12:18

4. "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers,
has glorified His Servant Jesus..." Acts 3:13.

5. "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy
holy Servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint..." Acts 4:27.

6. "For you first, God raised up His Servant, and sent him to bless
you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways." Acts 3:26

7. "And you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God."
1 Corin 3:23.

8. "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee the only true
God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." John 17:3

9. "And Jesus said to him, `Why do you call me good? No one is good
except God alone." Mark 10:18

10. "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of
heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Matthew 24:36

11. "Jesus said to her, `Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet
ascended to the Father; but go to my bretheren, and say to them,
`I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"
John 20:17

12. "And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and he
knelt down and began to pray, saying, `Father, if Thou art willing,
remove this cup from me; yet not my will, but Thine be done."
Luke 22:41-42

I think you are smart enough to understand the verses, and I have highlighted parts of the verses as hints for you to understand that Jesus DENIED being God. So no, Jesus (pbuh) never thought he was God.

Peace be upon you :)

"Son of God" means someone that follows God's commandments, someone that follows the path of peace.

Matthew 5:9
"9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God."


786, you are an extremely valuable rarity. Please keep posting. :)

Yes this is important point to understand that Son of God doesn't mean literally the "Son" of God, but "Son" refers to followers.

Peace be unto you :)

Matthew 22

41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42"What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied.
43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet." '45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.



Jesus often use the terms 'Father' for God and 'Son' for Himself, thus it's a easy step to conclude He is Gods Son.

An example:
Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.



Since the trinity is a complicated concept I can only give examples where they are very "connected":

19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Okay, well first off your 1st argument David calling him Lord and all that. Well according to the prophesy the messiah is going to be from the "seed of David". There had a long debate over this topic on sciforum before, and we really couldn't quite reach a conclusion, since Jesus had no geneology, even though Luke and Matthew give a geneology linking him to Jesus. I'm sure you can understand why Jesus had no geneology. So now to say that if Jesus is denying to be the "son" of David he then refuses to fulfill the prophecy. And I'm sure Jesus had no intention of that. Now for the word "Lord", well you must understand that the word "Lord" doesn't mean God and can be used for people of greater authority, in respect, and other reasons also. While "son" is considered less then "Lord" thus it is quite possible Jesus is showing his status as to being greater than of David. The best scenario it suggests is that Jesus is of greater status then David, to infer that this suggests him to be God is too big of an inference, and can possibly be false also. So we need to find good "proof" not "chance" to say that Jesus is God. And BTW since Jesus being God would be a central belief then it MUST be really explicit, and straightforward, and there should be NO reason to INFER. As the Ten Commandments were EXTREMELY EXPLICIT and were a CENTRAL belief. "Hear oh Israel, your Lord is One Lord" really Explicit is it not? Then to suggest Jesus is God then it would be explicit as it is a central belief, and God would not want humans to be infering on such a critical topic, as the Bible says "God is not the author of confusion". If such a critical and central belief depends on infering then how can God NOT be the author of confusion, just think about it. The centrals beliefs have all been stated explicitly. Then why not the concept of Jesus being God?

And the trinity which you were try to show. I respect your attempt but please read the verse you provided carefully. In every aspect Father is greater than the Son. I agree that it shows they are connected. But a prophet and God obviously will be connected. The prophet is basically a representative of of God, and thus connected in all ways.

Now I see you have opted to take a difference path in trying to show me all of this. All we are doing is infering with NO concrete proof.

Jesus could have been explicit if he truly believed what you say he is. Like the following verses are so explicit.

1. "...I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I."
John.14:28

2. "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every
man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of
Christ." 1 Corin. 11:3

3. "Behold, My servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My
soul is well pleased; I will put My Spirit upon him, and he shall
proclaim justice to the Gentiles." Matthew 12:18

4. "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers,
has glorified His Servant Jesus..." Acts 3:13.

5. "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy
holy Servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint..." Acts 4:27.

6. "For you first, God raised up His Servant, and sent him to bless
you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways." Acts 3:26

7. "And you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God."
1 Corin 3:23.

8. "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee the only true
God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." John 17:3

9. "And Jesus said to him, `Why do you call me good? No one is good
except God alone." Mark 10:18

10. "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of
heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Matthew 24:36

11. "Jesus said to her, `Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet
ascended to the Father; but go to my bretheren, and say to them,
`I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"
John 20:17

12. "And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and he
knelt down and began to pray, saying, `Father, if Thou art willing,
remove this cup from me; yet not my will, but Thine be done."
Luke 22:41-42

So no, Jesus (pbuh) never thought he was God.

I can only say this.

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."
[The Bible, Acts 2:22]

This verse applies to ALL prophets of God. You just take out "Jesus of Nazareth" and put the name of any prophet, and the verse will still be correct!!!

Further more, the beggar when questioned about Jesus who had healed him, replied to Jews; "And he said, "He is a prophet." (John 9:17).

So I request you all, dont commit this crime of claiming a prophet to be God, you talk the greatest blasphemy against God according to the Bible, and you break the Ten Commandments. Stop believing the corrupted Chruch. There is a long history of the corruption of the Chruch. It is the Church who introduced the Trinity. Early Christians didn't believe in the Trinity!!!!! Ask the Bible scholars who are honest enough to admit that.

".......It is difficult in the second half of the 20th century to offer a clear, objective and straightforward account of the revelation, doctrinal evolution, and theological elaboration of the Mystery of the trinity. Trinitarian discussion, Roman Catholic as well as other, present a somewhat unsteady silhouette. Two things have happened. There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma 'One God in three Persons' became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought ... it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development" (emphasis added). "The New Catholic Encyclopedia" Volume XIV, p. 295.

The LAST QUADRANT of the 4th CENTURY!!!!!! A PRODUCT OF 3 CENTURIES!!!!!
Stop believing this doctrine of the corrupted Chruch.

The Church was so corrupt that they even corrupted the Bible by inserting

1 John 5:7

"there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one"

Which now the scholars have agreed that it is a fabrication, a later addition. The Church even put there lies in the Bible, but thanks God some Christians are honest enough to accept the fabrication of 1John 5:7, and also that Trinity was a product of 3 centuries. Even if you can find a verse to be of the Trinity (if is unlikely, but what if) then it might aswell also be a fabrication which the scholars haven't figured out yet. The truth is that Trinity is a later addition to the message of Jesus.

What proof do you need to reject this belief in Trinity?

Peace be upon you :)

Yes this is important point to understand that Son of God doesn't mean literally the "Son" of God, but "Son" refers to followers.

Peace be unto you :)
How can you remember so many good scriptures!?!? :cool:

How can you remember so many good scriptures!?!? :cool:

Well I have been talking on this subject the most of the time I do this. I didn't just talk on this forums, I've talked on chat rooms, and to people around me, so I repeat these verses to different people, and so I basically remembered them automatically, but not all verses. Some I still look up. I created a word document of all verses which I use most of the time, so even if I forget I have them for reference quickly. And I'm nothing really, there are many people out there whose sole job is doing dialogue on different religions, basically comparative religion.

Here are some sames: Dr. Zakir Naik, Ahmed Deedat. You will be amazed at how many verses they have memorized.

Basically sometimes you repeat some stuff so often that you never need to look for them. I'm sure you can understand this concept.

Peace be unto you :)

Yeah, I understand.
Well, that's why there are people that actually have a degree in theology.....
It's kinda sad to see people that read stuff a little bit and argue that they know it better. What if they would talk with a theologian (or whatever), eh?

People treat religion as if it was passtime. Well... it takes a lot of studying to know it well....

12. "And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and he
knelt down and began to pray, saying, `Father, if Thou art willing,
remove this cup from me; yet not my will, but Thine be done."
Luke 22:41-42
That's one of my favorites....

So no, Jesus (pbuh) never thought he was God.
What is "pbuh"? :confused:

Also...
1 John 4:15
"15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. "

How would that be properly translated from the Greek scriptures?

Here is a commentary I found about 1 John 4

"Christians who are well acquainted with the Scriptures, may, in humble dependence on Divine teaching, discern those who set forth doctrines according to the apostles, and those who contradict them. The sum of revealed religion is in the doctrine concerning Christ, his person and office. The false teachers spake of the world according to its maxims and tastes, so as not to offend carnal men. The world approved them, they made rapid progress, and had many followers such as themselves; the world will love its own, and its own will love it. The true doctrine as to the Saviour's person, as leading men from the world to God, is a mark of the spirit of truth in opposition to the spirit of error. The more pure and holy any doctrine is, the more likely to be of God; nor can we by any other rules try the spirits whether they are of God or not. And what wonder is it, that people of a worldly spirit should cleave to those who are like themselves, and suit their schemes and discourses to their corrupt taste? (1Jn 4:7-13)
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/?action=getCommentaryText&cid=70&source=2&seq=i.69.4.1

That's one of my favorites....


What is "pbuh"? :confused:

Also...
1 John 4:15
"15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. "

How would that be properly translated from the Greek scriptures?

Hey,

"Pbuh" means Peace Be Upon Him. I try to say it after the name of every prophet, but sometimes I forget. I'm a Muslim so we are supposed to say it.

As for the verse. I would interpret it same as Jesus said I am one in you as you are one in me. And the prayer about making the desciples being the same in his prayer.

I would think the reason behind this logic is that Jesus had the message of God, or in other words the "Word of God". In another place Jesus says that eternal life is knowing God, obviously you know God by the Word of God. So since Jesus believe in the message he is 1 with God, and as God is in Jesus, Jesus is in God. By this explanation it would also make sense why Jesus would pray about making the desciples one in him as he was one with the Father, because obviously desciples believe in Jesus, indirectly believing God, as they believed Jesus's teachings which was the Word of God.

This is how I think it makes sense, and how we can connect these different verses. Maybe I am wrong about it, only God knows.

Hopefully this explanation is not confusing, because sometimes what I say confuses many people :D .

Peace be unto you :)

Hey,

"Pbuh" means Peace Be Upon Him. I try to say it after the name of every prophet, but sometimes I forget. I'm a Muslim so we are supposed to say it.
Well, you are the nicest Muslim I've ever met. :)

As for the verse. I would interpret it same as Jesus said I am one in you as you are one in me. And the prayer about making the desciples being the same in his prayer.

I would think the reason behind this logic is that Jesus had the message of God, or in other words the "Word of God". In another place Jesus says that eternal life is knowing God, obviously you know God by the Word of God. So since Jesus believe in the message he is 1 with God, and as God is in Jesus, Jesus is in God. By this explanation it would also make sense why Jesus would pray about making the desciples one in him as he was one with the Father, because obviously desciples believe in Jesus, indirectly believing God, as they believed Jesus's teachings which was the Word of God.
Yeah...

This is how I think it makes sense, and how we can connect these different verses. Maybe I am wrong about it, only God knows.
Yeah. Good thing you say that. Most people don't....

Hopefully this explanation is not confusing, because sometimes what I say confuses many people.
Well, that's understandable..

Peace be unto you :)
You too ;)

Hi,

Truthseeker-----by the way are you a believer in any particular religion, or an atheist? just curious.

Peace be unto you :)

I consider myself a Christian, a Taoist and a Zen-Buddhist (mainly).....
I'm also agnostic. I consider the above to be philosophies. Doesn't mean I don't believe in God, just means I'm trying to "find" Him. ;)

I consider myself a Christian, a Taoist and a Zen-Buddhist (mainly).....
I'm also agnostic. I consider the above to be philosophies. Doesn't mean I don't believe in God, just means I'm trying to "find" Him. ;)

Wow so many things :D . So you are trying to find "him" then surely your name Truthseeker is really appropriate for that.

Well I try to study as many religions possible for me, but my main is Christianity, which basically covers Judaism aswell since Jews basically have the Old Testament, but I guess I should also study the Talmud but still most my study is in Christianity.

So if you ever need help regarding a verse, I'll share with you my interpretations, but really it depends on how YOU interpret it, and how it relates to YOU to find the religion what is right for you. But again sometimes what you like isn't always the good thing so it is adviseable to ask others opinions aswell, from all type of people. I think this just helps you know and be aware of the many ideas and interpretations out there regarding the particular verse or issue.

I encourage you to find God, God willing your destination will be Islam.

If you are ever in doubt or have any question regarding Islam, you can ask me. I can't promise you that I'll know the answer as I am also growing in my knowledge, but I can try to answer your questions.

Good luck with your search. Hope you find him.

If you do have questions I would recommend that you PM me because I don't want to go away from the topic of this thread, I hope you understand, but if you wish to ask right on here it's fine but then the topic will just change and I don't want that to happen because the concept of God is a real important issue, and I believe so many Christians have fallen into the corrupted teachings of the Church, which I try to explain.

Peace be unto you :)

So if you ever need help regarding a verse, I'll share with you my interpretations, but really it depends on how YOU interpret it, and how it relates to YOU to find the religion what is right for you.

Sounds like you're shopping for a pair of shoes. You insulted your god.

So if you ever need help regarding a verse, I'll share with you my interpretations, but really it depends on how YOU interpret it, and how it relates to YOU to find the religion what is right for you.

Sounds like you're shopping for a pair of shoes. You insulted your god.

Well you see sometimes the morals of a religion are appealing to someone. But if you kept reading I said that the things which you like aren't always right either. So basically I made 2 points. One is look what appeals to you, and then test that religion, because whatever appeals to you isn't always right.

And I don't think I insulted my God, but only God knows best.

Peace be unto you :)

One is look what appeals to you, and then test that religion, because whatever appeals to you isn't always right.

I don't agree with that at all. What does anyones appeal to a particular religion have to do with god?

One is look what appeals to you, and then test that religion, because whatever appeals to you isn't always right.

I don't agree with that at all. What does anyones appeal to a particular religion have to do with god?

Huh? Whats the definition of religion?

And religion does have to do with God.

The Trinitarian religion of Christianity has a Trinity which is God.
There is Islam where there is no Trinity but just simply 1 God and ONEONESS, no duality of Trinity.
And then there is Buddhism, Jainism, and Hinduism.
So basically the question is which is the right religion, then automatically you will know God then because that religion will tell you about him.

Peace be unto you :)

I think they are just purely different perspectives of the same "God", with some things added and subtracted. It's like a huge puzzle, where you have to bring all the pieces together and not leave any out, otherwise you won't understand the big picture...

So, really... all "religions" are just different perspectives of something which is true to all of them. And what is true to all of them cannot be considered a "religion".

Huh? Whats the definition of religion?

Religion: A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.

So basically the question is which is the right religion, then automatically you will know God then because that religion will tell you about him.

Yes, that is the question - do you know the answer?

[i]Religion: A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.

wrong!

you misrepresent the almighty in all his wondrous glory
he gave us choices

lord
forgive q cos he knows not what he does!

Huh? Whats the definition of religion?

Religion: A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.

So basically the question is which is the right religion, then automatically you will know God then because that religion will tell you about him.

Yes, that is the question - do you know the answer?

I would think that the answer is obvious since you know who you are asking the question to, so why ask? If the other guy is Christian and then the answer to the question is obvious.... If the other guy is Hindu and then the answer to the question is obvious.... So to ask me this question is always obvious, as I am a Muslim!!!! That is why I told him to find, search, seek, and test that religion.

But please Q can we stay off this, because we are just going away from the topic of this thread, which I don't want to do. I know there is a habit amongst Atheists to go to the topic of "Does God Exist, prove it." and "How do you know this religion is right" that is the reason I said "No Atheists Please" but if an atheist can add on and contribute to the topic of the thread and not deviate from the topic then their contribution is encouraged. So this is my request to you that can we stop going farther on this, and stay on the topic. I know this is a public forum, and you have the right to post anything you wish, but please consider my request. I just want to get as much out as possible out of this thread. I hope you can understand.

Peace be unto you :)

Okay,

So are there any verses which a Christian has which can answer the question?

Peace be unto you :)

Not really. Religion was invented. Religion is a concept that was invented to determine a collection of rituals and dogmas. It's like a bottle which holds water. Their are various bottles with different shapes, but the water is the same. In the same way, there are many religions with many different characteristics, but the spirituality which they hold inside is common to all of them.

Which bible the damn thing gets revised as the religion evolves into new brands.
I am pretty sure that the Christian version of the Myth claims that the Character Jesus
was the self proclaimed son of God after God raped Mary, Of course Joseph did not mind cause whose gonna accuse a God of getting jiggy with you wife, and besides jesus was running that Fillet-O-Fish venture so they did OK.

IQ of 176, eh? :rolleyes: