Do you think Jesus feels bad about giving up his life for mankind's sins. Do you think he might feels that it was a mistake seeing as how mankind has learned nothing from his scarifice. With mankind quickly (or slowly according to some) trailing down the road to barbarianism (is that even a word now) You think he might look down on us now and realize that obviously he took up a wrong cause or do you think he might realize that there are still many good people in this world today. Good people that help keep his sacrifice from being in vain.


What are you thoughts on this????Any opinions welcomed

Thank You;)

Jesus does not care about mankind, he did what he did to obey god's order and save himself. Jesus was only a messanger of god, he's responsible for delivering the message, but he does not enforce the message or carry the burden of failing of other humans.

Originally posted by heflores
Jesus does not care about mankind, he did what he did to obey god's order and save himself. Jesus was only a messanger of god, he's responsible for delivering the message, but he does not enforce the message or carry the burden of failing of other humans.


Yes but even messengers have feelings...you'd think he would regret getting in this mess in the first place by looking at mankind's status now.

The man was a virgin born of a virgin who always did good, I don't think that he being commanded by god to have fun for a change and surrounded by beautifull women in heaven is giving him enough time to worry and feel bad about the few living. I'm not even sure that dead prophets are seeing what we do today are have any concept of time. They're probably sheilded from it all.

Originally posted by heflores
I'm not even sure that dead prophets are seeing what we do today are have any concept of time. They're probably sheilded from it all. So what, God runs heaven like a cable news network? And people the the US has isolationist tendencies.

Jesus had second thougts about this whole thing before even dying. See bible verse....he cried to god..what have you forsake me to teach those idiots.

Matt.27
[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Maybe. I think he may have thought of a way so that life could be lived by everyone, in peace. However this could only mean that we would all live life in a dream , the soul would never be awakened. We would all live more prosperously and productive though. the world would be a better place. We are all born in sin, as Freud has shown, and Jesus was supposed to die for these sins, only it didn't really work. What i would point out is that Jesus' crucifiction may not have been his real destiny, i.e. he was not allowed to finish his work.

Posted by heflores
Jesus had second thougts about this whole thing before even dying. See bible verse....he cried to god..what have you forsake me to teach those idiots.

Matt.27
[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

===================


God's spirit had to leave Jesus's mortal body before it could die.
Thats all this scripture is saying on this subject....not the "Jesus was having any second thoughts.....He said earlier: If posible, remove this cup from me.....however let thine will be done."
He was commited to obey god's Word.
He had no thoughts of turning back.

heflores, are you muslim, or christian...?

You say christian, but hold to Jesus as only a prophet messinger, not as being God in flesh as stated in John 1:14.

A female ex-muslim christian attempting to handle God's sacred Word, which has forbidden women to preach....

Yet still, I take everything you say back to the Word of God and compare it to the scriptures......

Buy your words you shall be known.

Your words bear a contradiction in themselves......
You cannot by your words, disprove the Bible from within,....nor by the Quran disprove the Bible from without.

your post makes no sense. You ASSUME too much about me, making an ASS of U and not of ME

sag

Do you think Jesus feels bad about giving up his life for mankind's sins. Do you think he might feels that it was a mistake seeing as how mankind has learned nothing from his scarifice. With mankind quickly (or slowly according to some) trailing down the road to barbarianism (is that even a word now) You think he might look down on us now and realize that obviously he took up a wrong cause or do you think he might realize that there are still many good people in this world today. Good people that help keep his sacrifice from being in vain.


I should say I have not read the new testament , all I know are just some stories heard . Regardles , I think that as you put it right here , assuming this was the case , Id say Yshua was a dumbass for trying it in the first place , for various reasons .

heflores

have fun for a change and surrounded by beautifull women in heaven


Is this your concept of heaven heflores ?


Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?


Hey I say that every day :D

charles

We are all born in sin, as Freud has shown


How does he show that ?

visitor

being God in flesh


I bet he was God in flesh , at least on certain levels .


A female ex-muslim christian attempting to handle God's sacred Word, which has forbidden women to preach....


Oh there's plenty of sacred word from God ......dont worry , it wont run out .

What I always wondered , and what I have seen in this threads also , brings me to the question , why do religions think they own certain people/words/concepts ? Christians have Jesus , if the Muslims would have him , he would surely be known are Issa , while he was a Jew , he is not known as Yshua . Same thing with Islamic Allah , although it is pre-Islamic , it is considered Islamic owned . The Christians are so obsessed with Jesus and this trinity and the whole Body of Christ thing , they wont allow other concepts of Issa or Yshua to exist . Islam has as much right to Issa as the Christians have to Jesus , since Yshua was neither of them .

And even if , it still wouldnt matter since ownership can never be proved in such stages .

We are all born in sin, as Freud has shown...'How does he show that' ?

The Oedipus Complex, which Jung then called the collective unconscious, i.e. the thoughts that are true to us all but are forced into the unconscious. Apparently they are a struggle to find but they do exist for all of us. It is usually for this reason that the soul is woken by boundaries being made, a limit is imposed upon the body. Whether Jesus had the answer for everyone to co-exist throughout this complex is now unknown.

Originally posted by Allahs_Mathematics


Is this your concept of heaven heflores ?


No I was half sarcastic, but I think Heaven is this eternal place where every soul will be united with it's mate and living in beautifull conditions. I always pray that god unite me with my husband in heaven, but my husband does not feel that way....only joking in his cute way of course, but I'll never know the truth...now I'm just kidding.

What is your prespective of heaven....Of course note that these are theories and individual interpretations of the Koran, only god really known what is in heaven and hell.

Originally posted by TheVisitor
[I]
A female ex-muslim christian attempting to handle God's sacred Word, which has forbidden women to preach....


To make this super clear. I'm a muslim and always been one, as a submitter to god..Actually I hope to be a muslim, I don't know how god views me. As far as ex-muslims, there is none, once a muslim, always a muslim, except mental retards and opportunists who are trying to make certain impressions.

What is your prespective of heaven


I do not believe heaven is an afterlife-like state where there are such things as physical materials . I do not believe in life in an other space/time section than I am in now after I have died . As far as heaven goes , I primarily consider it a state of mind , based on some state of being , but that is relative and can be fabricated by the person self .

So as far as heaven/hell go , is as far as my mind goes . As far as a life other than this one goes , there could very well be but not in the same space/time understanding there is now .

I dont believe that my soul rises out of my body and goes to heavens above to God and acts there just in the same relative and personal matter as it does here .

Perhaps I can live my after life before or during my life as well .

Either way Im not really into the heavens preached by Islamist,Christian or Jewish leaders .

Originally posted by Allahs_Mathematics


Either way Im not really into the heavens preached by Islamist,Christian or Jewish leaders .

We don't really have to know all the details I guess. We can just say Heaven is really really good and hell stinks so bad, and they are for eternity. When we get to heaven, god's willing, we'll enjoy the commodity, and I wouldn't care if it was my soul that is enjoying it or my body that is enjoying. I'm not going to request a Quran and demand from god that he gives me the glass of pure wine that he promised me.......Apple juice will work, if it's the only thing available.

We don't really have to know all the details I guess. We can just say Heaven is really really good and hell stinks so bad, and they are for eternity. When we get to heaven, god's willing, we'll enjoy the commodity, and I wouldn't care if it was my soul that is enjoying it or my body that is enjoying. I'm not going to request a Quran and demand from god that he gives me the glass of pure wine that he promised me.......Apple juice will work, if it's the only thing available.

Heave is supposed to be more than good . And some believers mention heaven to be "beautifull" as well . In this sense of perception i do not even recognize good not beautifull , not ugly nor bad . If one wants to make a credible distinction between hell and heaven , it shouldnt JUST include ethics or aesthetics , as modern day religion wants all believers to believe. Beauty is defined by a state of mind and so is good . A state of mind (epistemology) is defined by a state of being (ontology) , or the other way around who knows ? Either way , if heaven is beautifull and go , it is also knowledged and living , while hell is ugly , bad , ignorant and dead . Man creates heaven as well as hell , and that is infinite , as well as animals do , as well as everything that is alive does . Only Allah is all 5 .
And I believe Allah indeed sits at heavens gates , and allows hells gates to exist , because only Allah knows one cannot exist without the other . Heaven isnt planet x or y , and neither is it physical ONLY . Physical is that it exists , like you and I exist , but like I said there's more to it than ontology , or just ethics or just aesthetics .

Your concept of heaven Is the traditional theological one , thats not my concept . And I do not wish to attack you personal on this , but I do find a great resemblance with muslims as well as Christians when it comes to wanting to know .....as you put right here . I know its merely psychology that doesnt allow the want , since the want might become attaining , and attaining knowledge might be the most fata burst your bubble has ever known .

But hey.....we all can have our aspects , and in the end none of is is Allah , not to the fullest anyways , but if I find myself dead and gone to heaven or hell in todays theological sense , God or Satan whoever rusn the place should prepare himself for sever terroristic attacks , no doubt about that . Im sure Al Halaj is throwing stones at these deities as we speak , if indeed these deities are the ones existing .

:D

cool, but I think concentrating too much on hell or heaven is a waste of time. We are taking the test now and not getting the award. We should have a little taste of the award of punishment to get motivated to take a good test, but we need not understand or experience the full thing now.

cool, but I think concentrating too much on hell or heaven is a waste of time. We are taking the test now and not getting the award. We should have a little taste of the award of punishment to get motivated to take a good test, but we need not understand or experience the full thing now.


Everything is a waste of time by definition . But more importantly , it is this test-reward concept of life and afterlife that I cant accpet as true . And this only proven by statements like motivation based on future punsihment . If that is so , I declare Saddam Hussain and Stalin true Gods , he really showed people the reward of punishment if they would fail the test .
Perhaps you find peace in the test-reward concept , It is I who tests my rewards and it is I who rewards my tests . The same way do I live my afterlife before and during my life . Allah owns time concept , after is not existing in the eyes of Allah , not even in your conception of that what is God .

I do need to experience and understand the full experience , perhaps you feel like one of those who follow religion and its scriptures , I rather feel like one of those who creates scriptures . Create and Receive , the eternal concept of the Tao as known by those old China's . Allah is that what unites them , as a human I already receive , just like you . But when this reception is false , how can I not but wish to create . When I create , how can I not but understand the true meaning of that what I receive ? How does that not creat a concept of Unification between creating and receiving : Allah .

How did this thread get derailed...or more rather changed topics:(

Originally posted by heflores
Jesus does not care about mankind, he did what he did to obey god's order and save himself. Jesus was only a messanger of god, he's responsible for delivering the message, but he does not enforce the message or carry the burden of failing of other humans.


I find it very interesting that you speak for a man that you do not even know. I also find it interesting that you say he DIED to save HIMSELF. This is an apparent contradiction. Can you elaborate? I do not see the logic of a man SACRAFICING himself in order to SAVE himself. I cannot understand this. How can you say that Jesus was only a messenger when Jesus is named YHWH in Hebrews Chapter 1? In fact God the Father calls The Son (Jeshua or commonly known as Jesus) God. It seems you need a bit more research in your field my friend. Jesus also said that "I am the son of God" this can only mean deity. Now if you dont believe the Bible, then i guess i can't convince you and i dont know why you claim to beleive in God in the first place.

Anyways i shall explain. Jesus Died to save mankind. If he would have regretted it, he wouldnt have done it. There are a few good people in this world. He did not come here to save the righteous, but to save those few good people. You see, it is unecessary to save a righteous man. But for a good man, one might even risk his own life. Jesus came for you and i to receive salvation. You can accept it or reject it. The choice is yours. It should be dually noted that there is none righteous, no, not one. You or I have no chance of saving ourselves. This world has a doomed fate. Yes, this world is becomming more chaotic. This proves our detrimental
destiny. But a good man has little to fear if he accepts the grace of salvation. He will be saved and taken into eternal security. Everlasting comfort. I pray that each of you reading this accepts the truth for what it is and finds a passion in himself to seek the real truth. Don't just take what was handed down to you as truth. This is called second-hand truth. Wich is no truth at all. Seek truth for yourself. Study what you believe and discover WHY you believe it. In my study, only the Bible stands up to the test. Many other ancient myths, writings are bombarded with contradictions and pagan foolery. In my studies, i have found many accusations against the Bible to be quite false. Study for yourself. Will let others tell you what truth is? Or will you discover for yourself?

Originally posted by heflores
The man was a virgin born of a virgin who always did good, I don't think that he being commanded by god to have fun for a change and surrounded by beautifull women in heaven is giving him enough time to worry and feel bad about the few living. I'm not even sure that dead prophets are seeing what we do today are have any concept of time. They're probably sheilded from it all.

on what premise do you say that Jesus is in heaven with a bunch of women fooling around? did he tell you this? i would be quite surprised? who told you that this is what heaven is like?

Originally posted by heflores
Jesus had second thougts about this whole thing before even dying. See bible verse....he cried to god..what have you forsake me to teach those idiots.

Matt.27
[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


Jesus also said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Jesus exemplified his mercy and grace in this passage. Many of you people here do not understand the message of salvation. In fact many of you have the concept completely misconstrued. Jesus also never called them "idiots." where do you guys get your theology?

Originally posted by Charles Fleming
Maybe. I think he may have thought of a way so that life could be lived by everyone, in peace. However this could only mean that we would all live life in a dream , the soul would never be awakened. We would all live more prosperously and productive though. the world would be a better place. We are all born in sin, as Freud has shown, and Jesus was supposed to die for these sins, only it didn't really work. What i would point out is that Jesus' crucifiction may not have been his real destiny, i.e. he was not allowed to finish his work.

My freind. How can you say that the crucifiction didnt work? Are you getting these teachings from the estranged "Jesus Seminar"? a rag-tag group of a miniscule percent of theologians that for some reason have a huge "say-so" in the theology world? Listen to me my friends. Do you know what the crucifiction accomplished?
Do you know the intent? The crucifiction was so that all mankind can be saved from his sin. Not that sin would be eliminated from the world? That would turn us into no-willed robots. A loving father does not want people to be forced into living a good life. Our loving father wants us to CHOOSE a good life. If there was no temptation, what would seperate us from the evil machinations of the world? Christians (wich means to be Christ-Like) were meant to be lights unto the world. How can you hypocrites claims that Jesus has not accomplished his purpose?! A den of vipers! How has the truth gone so astray? Have any of you sought out the truth for yourselves? Do you rely on modern day pharisees and sagusees to teach you blasphomy? Remember that the wisdom of man is foolish in the sight of God. "The fool has said in his heart that there is no God. Where is your free-will? Has it been stolen by the false-teachers of this Age? Oh, how your father would love to embrace you in his arms. But you reject the gift of his salvation!? How have you been so decieved? Please, i admonish you. Search out the truth for yourself. Do not let the bias of today's modern scholars fool you into damnation. Search out the truth.

Originally posted by KenshiSoro
Jesus also said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." ... where do you guys get your theology? Where do you get yours?

Your quote comes from Luke, who wrote half a century after the purported crucifixion. Luke was not a witness to the comment, nor is the comment attested to by any other source. In fact, you haven't a clue as to what, if anything, Jesus might have said. What you have is a story, replete with 2nd-hand dialogue, composed and redacted by Christian apologists.

Originally posted by KenshiSoro
I find it very interesting that you speak for a man that you do not even know. I also find it interesting that you say he DIED to save HIMSELF. This is an apparent contradiction. Can you elaborate?

And should I conclude from your question that you do know Jesus. Does your pastor arrange for you to see him every night. I know Jesus from reading all the scriptures, the torah, bible, and Quran. All scriptures in my mind agree in classifying Jesus as a prophet of god. The bible have in some place issues with translations and interpretations that have cause many confusion among the christians....In addition, the greek methology with it's dad and son, ect....had so much impact, afterall, romans were the first to write down the bible.

There is no contradiction in one saving him/herself. This is the object of every man/woman life. I believe in a concept that you probably don't and will never understand. It's called self responsbility. I view myself as a responsible entiry infront of my god and know that if I end up screwing up and going to hell, then I have earned and noone to blame for it but myself. I don't believe in interventions between people and god, and your story about god sacrificing his son and all is just a method of intervention....I don't belive in that crap...I should say though that you are improving...Your anscestor used to go through saints and priests to reach Jesus to reach god. You guys need Jesus to reach god......Maybe your children will realize what bullshit are you doing and reach god with no interventions.


Originally posted by KenshiSoro
I do not see the logic of a man SACRAFICING himself in order to SAVE himself. I cannot understand this. How can you say that Jesus was only a messenger when Jesus is named YHWH in Hebrews Chapter 1?

Okay, Jesus didn't sacrifice himself....There was a plot by the Romans and the jews to kill him, later they felt so bad about it that they decided to make up this whole story about Jesus being a sacrifice for mankind. Don't you think that's much better than saying the Jews and Romans plotted to kill the prophet of god cold turkey.....Sense my friend...Sense please....


Originally posted by KenshiSoro
Anyways i shall explain. Jesus Died to save mankind. If he would have regretted it, he wouldnt have done it. There are a few good people in this world. He did not come here to save the righteous, but to save those few good people. You see, it is unecessary to save a righteous man. But for a good man, one might even risk his own life. Jesus came for you and i to receive salvation. You can accept it or reject it. The choice is yours.

Again, you insult god and call him a pagan. Show me one verse in the bible where Jesus says...My god will sacrifice me so that I can save all of you...Now, examine this verse from the bible. It's Jesus speaking to you in the day of the judgement.

Matt.7
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You see, Jesus will say to all those that don't call straight to god, depart from me, shooo shooo.


Originally posted by KenshiSoro
Or will you discover for yourself?

So you want to teach me or I should persih...huh.....I hope that is not a threat, for last time I checked, you didn't control the keys to god's decision. GOD will decide who is fit among humanity, not your research or your pastor's speeches...I'm sorry, but they have no influence on the grand scheme of things. Now go back and restudy your bible.

Matt.7 [4] Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

nevertheless, read hebrews chapter 1. Jesus is called YHWH. there is no getting around it. heflores, also, there is no documentation for you to say that romans wrote the new testament, no proof, no nothing. It is well known, even in the secular world that Paul wrote the majority of the new-testament.

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
Where do you get yours?

Your quote comes from Luke, who wrote half a century after the purported crucifixion. Luke was not a witness to the comment, nor is the comment attested to by any other source. In fact, you haven't a clue as to what, if anything, Jesus might have said. What you have is a story, replete with 2nd-hand dialogue, composed and redacted by Christian apologists.


your arguement is outdated and has already been refuted by reknown christian theologians. Gimme something new.

Actually I'm prety happy with how the whole thing turned out. Bob and I (Bobs my twin brother ... How did you think we pulled off that resurrection trick?) often sit around watching cnn and laughing ourselves silly. What a bunch of rubes you earth people turned out to be :)

Originally posted by KenshiSoro
nevertheless, read hebrews chapter 1. Jesus is called YHWH. there is no getting around it.

Yes there is. Please explain to me who is being described in the following prophecy by Moses.

Deut.18
18] I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
[19] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
[20] But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

KenshiSoro, if you say that this prophecy is about Jesus, then please accept the fact that he was a prophet commended by his lord to deliver a message. If Jesus is not the one here being prophesized by god and revealed to Moses, then who is it..I think it's Prophet Muhammed.