and if he does would it be a fair game?

Care to discuss?

If an omnipotent being played an non-omipotent at chess...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...let me ponder.....................

yup, he'd probably win. And what the heck do you mean by 'fair'? There's no such natural law or relation.

If God played with Himself would it be a stalemate all the time?

ok dont tell me i know
there is more
ok not a problem
not a problem
i can wait
not a problem
let me add a joke then
God is playing chess with quantum quack
fair move he says
quantum quack waits
then God makes a move and wins the game
who is unfair?


Philosopher Philocrazy

well...maybe look at it this way:
The grand master of global chess ( human ) is playing against a novice, is this fair?

If God played with Himself would it be a stalemate all the time?
Likely. There are an infinite number of possible games/outcomes. If one was omniscient regarding all possible moves then you'd always end in a stalemate when playing both sides, or against an equal opponent.

keeping in mind that God is restricted by the rules and the limitations of the board and it's pieces just the same as his competitor.

God plays chess every day, and we are the pawns!

Reading the title made me think of this quote:

"The chess board is the world, the pieces are the phenomena of the universe, the rules of the game are what we call the laws of Nature. The player on the other side is hidden from us. We know that his play is always fair, just, and patient. But we also know, to our cost, that he never overlooks a mistake, or makes the smallest allowance for ignorance." - Thomas Henry Huxley

As for would it be fair, yes it would. Just like if we were to play a human grandmaster, it may not be an even match but it's a fair game.

But would God be able to beat one of the chess computer programs that play Kasprov etc? As the computer like him would be able to see miles ahead and know pretty much every combination.

Here's the real question about god. Could God fart a fart so smelly that even He couldn't stand the smell? :D


As to the topic, we all know that God cheats so obviously he'd win. But actually, he'd probably accuse you of playing the wrong game and/or breaking the rules and win by default rather than through competition. If God played with himself, he'd probably call one side Satan and allow it the honor of being the scapegoat and let it lose. Except for a short while (1000 years of Satan) when he'd let him briefly win a few games just to attract the sucker bets.

Reminds me of the South Park where Jesus got into the boxing match with Satan. See that one? Everyone in town bet on Satan cuz he was such a huge beefy dude while Jesus was this scrawny little love they neighor vegetarian type. Then, the day of the fight Satan danced around until Jesus barely touched him and took a dive. Guess who was the only person in town to bet on Jesus? ;)

Likely. There are an infinite number of possible games/outcomes. If one was omniscient regarding all possible moves then you'd always end in a stalemate when playing both sides, or against an equal opponent.

If God was playing against Himself, He would already know what moves He was going to play and would therefore beat Himself... that is the only logical conclusion.

But would God be able to beat one of the chess computer programs that play Kasprov etc? As the computer like him would be able to see miles ahead and know pretty much every combination.

He would however know the software's weaknesses (since all software have some).

If you've ever played chess against yourself you know you can't win.....hmmmmm...or lose for that matter......
an excersise in futility........

To play chess in a way that works for both parties God would have to let you play with out him interferring in your game.......and yet as we know we apply pressure on our opponents all the time. It would take a lot of self control on Gods part me thinks.

The epitomy of sportsmanship!!

and to further the philosophical....is not life often equated to a game.......

If you've ever played chess against yourself you know you can't win.....hmmmmm...or lose for that matter......

I thought it was the opposite: u can win AND lose :D

well I suppose if he got pissed of with you youwould lose

If God was playing against Himself, He would already know what moves He was going to play and would therefore beat Himself... that is the only logical conclusion. That presumes omniscience. But if he was, he'd know which moves he'd make on both sides, and would know the outcome and may not bother playing in the first place. But if he did, he'd know which moves he'd make, which moves he'd make in response, etc., etc. So the logical conclusion is that he'd play the perfect game on both sides and every game would be a stalemate.

maybe...but mayb God would be smart enough to know that he needs not to know to make the game worth while...in other words he would refrain from knowing what moves are to be played.....by his choice of course

and rely on his playing skills instead....

too simple for god.

I would have said god plays GO.

God would definitely beat me in chess. LoL, my 6 year old nephew beats me...

The last time I played must have been about a year and a half ago.....and yes, I did win :D

If God played with Himself would it be a stalemate all the time?

Now that should be considered the ultimate sin. :D

Reading the title made me think of this quote:

"The chess board is the world, the pieces are the phenomena of the universe, the rules of the game are what we call the laws of Nature. The player on the other side is hidden from us. We know that his play is always fair, just, and patient. But we also know, to our cost, that he never overlooks a mistake, or makes the smallest allowance for ignorance." - Thomas Henry Huxley

As for would it be fair, yes it would. Just like if we were to play a human grandmaster, it may not be an even match but it's a fair game.

But would God be able to beat one of the chess computer programs that play Kasprov etc? As the computer like him would be able to see miles ahead and know pretty much every combination.

This raises a Relativity paradox. Since God knows not only all possible moves and out comes and knows who wins, assume he chooses to refuse to play.

Now his actions alter the outcome and his foreknowledge! Hence, even God can not exercise free will!

If God was playing against Himself, He would already know what moves He was going to play and would therefore beat Himself... that is the only logical conclusion.

Only if he has a split personality, otherwise it would be repeated stalemates.

God would definitely beat me in chess. LoL, my 6 year old nephew beats me...

Actually, this reminds me of when I played my eldest brother. He was in College and played on the chess team there. When he came home he invited me to play him. I love chess but I am a dufuss on the art and details of the complex moves.

At one point I made a move and my brothers response was, "That was stupid, how am I supposed to anticipate that"? Threw his game way off. :D

If god played chess, he'd merely threaten you to lose to him or be damned for all eternity to hellfire, brimstone, and all those goodies.

Coming back to the world where people aren't drenched in cliched thought, it all depends on how good he is at chess. For all we know, he might be awesome at playing around with humans but know zilch about chess.

This is all assuming he exists. An assumption that the purely logical don't subscribe to. Has anyone heard of the notion that the existence of a god is an assumption, and not a conclusion? :D

If God was playing against Himself, He would already know what moves He was going to play and would therefore beat Himself... that is the only logical conclusion

No. The only possible conclusion is a contradiction, and hence, a stalemate. He knows all moves beforehand on both sides of the table-- by definitiion, and thereffore cannot lose or win against himself.


In regards to the original question, that is entirely dependent on what you term fair. For me, in every competition against another entity, one is always favoured above the other either through skill, intelligence, circumstance, etc. Thus, one cannot ever have a competition in which all sides are evenly matched, and therefore this impossible cannot be the benchmark for fairness. I thus choose that benchmark to be the willingless of one to compete. So the answer to your question is yes, as long as God's opponent is willing.

any one ever heard of the words "unconscionable conduct". In this I mean the context of an entity (like a major corporation - ie microsoft) excerting undue influence on the competition or consumer.

To relate that to your initial question would be to imply whether God would cheat. I think the God as described by Christianity could cheat, but then that would be part of a "bigger plan", yes? lmao.

Well the real question should be: Is there such a thing as playing a PERFECT chess game? I don’t think so. For it to be fair game, God must “switch off” his seeing-into-the-future sense and he must also switch off all his knowledge of his opponent and how he thinks. And we have to assume that God would do that because he’s all fair and good and .. etc..
If those were the playing conditions, then God would be a little more than the most powerful computer we can ever conceive. He will be able to calculate ALL the possible board positions: 10^120 (note that there may be about 10^75 atoms in the universe) in a split second and make a decision on which is the best move. But for God to play a perfect game, he will have to know or predict exactly what his opponent’s strategy is. He can make a pretty good guess based on his almighty understanding of human nature, psychology, etc.. but that’s all it will be: a very educated guess. There is no perfect chess game.

Oh, men. Men, men, men. So logical, so analytical.


Never underestimate the joy of *playing*! The fun!

Of course God can play chess with himself, and it is a fair game!
Can you not imagine to dedicate your mental powers to play a game with yourself, and have fun?
I can. I used to play chess with myself, when I had more time.

I don't mean to sound facetious, but I feel that there is far more to life than just reason, and that there are far more *valid* explanations than just the strictly logical ones.


One can play a game for the *beauty* of it too, you know. Not just to win or lose.

Well the real question should be: Is there such a thing as playing a PERFECT chess game? I don’t think so. For it to be fair game, God must “switch off” his seeing-into-the-future sense and he must also switch off all his knowledge of his opponent and how he thinks. And we have to assume that God would do that because he’s all fair and good and .. etc..
If those were the playing conditions, then God would be a little more than the most powerful computer we can ever conceive. He will be able to calculate ALL the possible board positions: 10^120 (note that there may be about 10^75 atoms in the universe) in a split second and make a decision on which is the best move. But for God to play a perfect game, he will have to know or predict exactly what his opponent’s strategy is. He can make a pretty good guess based on his almighty understanding of human nature, psychology, etc.. but that’s all it will be: a very educated guess. There is no perfect chess game.

Actually you seem to have forgotten to grant unto God his rightful claim of being omnipotent and ALL KNOWING. i.e. - He knows all your moves in advance.

Damn that sounds like predestination.

Did you actually read my post mac? If "God" exists and if "God" would actually "play" then "God" would have the power to play fair. God would have the ability to suspend his powers for the game. He would know what powers to keep and what powers to suspend because , .. well .. he's/she's GOD and God, more than anyone or anything knows what "fair" is.

Did you actually read my post mac? If "God" exists and if "God" would actually "play" then "God" would have the power to play fair. God would have the ability to suspend his powers for the game. He would know what powers to keep and what powers to suspend because , .. well .. he's/she's GOD and God, more than anyone or anything knows what "fair" is.

Pardon my disinterest but I find this topic discussing God a bit futile. I am very much opposed to the concept of any god or gods so I am afraid I'll have to leave this discussion to those that find comfort in such beliefs. I prefer not to become rude and judgemental. I have my view and you have yours.

macm(quote)
Pardon my disinterest but I find this topic discussing God a bit futile. I am very much opposed to the concept of any god or gods so I am afraid I'll have to leave this discussion to those that find comfort in such beliefs. I prefer not to become rude and judgemental. I have my view and you have yours.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

"Grow up",if there is a God thats what he would say to you!!!!!!!!!!!


Philosopher Philocrazy

macm(quote)
Pardon my disinterest but I find this topic discussing God a bit futile. I am very much opposed to the concept of any god or gods so I am afraid I'll have to leave this discussion to those that find comfort in such beliefs. I prefer not to become rude and judgemental. I have my view and you have yours.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

"Grow up",if there is a God thats what he would say to you!!!!!!!!!!!


Philosopher Philocrazy

When you get out of diapers and decide what you want to be in life , please let us know.

macm:
When you get out of diapers and decide what you want to be in life , please let us know.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
why not tell you now with my diapers on
"Grow up" cant you see i am the philosopher philocrazy

Philosopher Philocrazy

personally I posted this thread as an amusement with a serious philosophical undertone. the question 'does God play chess?' is supposed to stretch those preconceptions about God a little and have a little fun as well.....is this such a crime?

( as a lightning bolt strikes my pc and blows it to pieces)

macm:
When you get out of diapers and decide what you want to be in life , please let us know.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
why not tell you now with my diapers on
"Grow up" cant you see i am the philosopher philocrazy

Philosopher Philocrazy

What I saw was another arrogant, obnoxious, egotistical know it all, believer and that is why I choose to respond as I did. To show non-believers can be just as rude and unresponsive to a debate.

personally I posted this thread as an amusement with a serious philosophical undertone. the question 'does God play chess?' is supposed to stretch those preconceptions about God a little and have a little fun as well.....is this such a crime?

( as a lightning bolt strikes my pc and blows it to pieces)

Indeed it was a good topic to discuss. Unfortunately there are those that choose to make unsupported claims as being fact and chide those that do not accept their view as absolute truth.

Sorry I allowed myself to turn ugly and perhaps ruin the fun but it is unacceptable that these know it all's make such absolute statements as fact when they have absolutely no supporting evidence.

Pardon my disinterest but I find this topic discussing God a bit futile. I am very much opposed to the concept of any god or gods so I am afraid I'll have to leave this discussion to those that find comfort in such beliefs. I prefer not to become rude and judgemental. I have my view and you have yours.

The fact that you reply means that you ARE interested.

The whole premise of my discussion is based on “If God exists..”. Apparently you become almost insulted at any mention of “God” and you refuse the notion that God MAY exist. It is you that introduced “belief” into this thread: “I am very much opposed to the concept of any god or gods.” You “believe” there is no God. I don’t care because that’s not what the topic of this thread is. Until you (or anyone) have proof that God does not exist, any hypothetical topic on God is philosophically relevant.

The fact that you reply means that you ARE interested.

The whole premise of my discussion is based on “If God exists..”. Apparently you become almost insulted at any mention of “God” and you refuse the notion that God MAY exist. It is you that introduced “belief” into this thread: “I am very much opposed to the concept of any god or gods.” You “believe” there is no God. I don’t care because that’s not what the topic of this thread is. Until you (or anyone) have proof that God does not exist, any hypothetical topic on God is philosophically relevant.

Oh, yea? BYE.

Chess is a 2 player game with perfect information and no random events.

Thus, as proven by J. Neumann there is an equilibrium in the game, whereas:
1) white has a strategy that no matter what black does, s/he always wins.
2) black has a strategy that no matter what white does, s/he always wins.
or 3) both have a strategy that no matter what the other side does, the worse they can get is a draw.
Note: One and ONLY one of these statements is true.

If God, or indeed anyone with sufficient knowlegde about chess (getting the correct strategy is an intractible problem) where to play, s/he would always choose the best strategy (assuming that s/he wants to win).
If the 3rd statement is true, the worst God could get is a draw.
If the other statements are true, and God does not mytically change the rules of chess to his favour, given the side that is less advantageous might result in him loosing.

Does anyone know whether chess is fair or biased to one color? Or has it not been found yet?

whilst I am no authority of the game I would asume that both colours have their benefits and I woudl suggest that they would be equal. Whilst being white playing the first move whilst giving a seemingly head start also indicates your strategy very early. Black playing defensively initially with the view to offensive later.

As to the purpose of this thread if I remember correctly it was mainly about whther God could refrain from cheating, by reading the opponents mind thus gaining an unfair advantage. I guess in essence we are talking about unconscionable conduct.

So often people refer to Gods omnipotents in a way that suggests that he has no control over his potency. That God would cheat his way to winning simply because he couldn't determine how much awareness he may or may not have.

I would suggest that God would win simply by his merit as a player not a mind reader....for surely he could win with his eyes shut if winning was all it was about.

Winning all the time would be such a bore as well I would suggest. Rather he may decide to drop his game just to see how well his opposing player played and find interest that way. play a game within a game so to speak....maintaining the greatest of sportsmanship at all times simply becasue to play it any other way would be just way too boring. [ And no one would play with him anyway]

Black or white pieces
they all end up asleep
in the box from whence they came
when the game is done.
Until friends
lift the lid
And smile at the pieces
And set them out
As once before.
The game commences
Winners are made
and losers sigh
The pieces return to the box.

and every one is a winner and that's no lie....[sorry coudn't help it]

and every one is a winner and that's no lie....[sorry coudn't help it]

In a game of two sides there are only three outcomes.

To Lose
To Win
To Draw

There is no joy in a draw.

actually there is a fourth outcome and that is an enjoyable game regardless of win lose or draw.....

actually there is a fourth outcome and that is an enjoyable game regardless of win lose or draw.....

Agreed. I am just very competitive ;)

ha...true.....this reminds me of some old philosophy I read some where,

life is but a game that you can neither win or lose at but only play.....ha...deep hey [chuckle]

You take the pieces out of the box, you put them back in the box. Everything else is frustration.

c20

Have you ever tried playing a game in God mode? You can't lose.

Have you ever tried playing a game in God mode? You can't lose.

Funny that ;)