:) I think the women are getting more stronger each day, remember when men used to be powerful and take over jobs, and leave women at home with the children and being a House-wife. But there is some people who enjoy being a house wife, sometimes men do it now. Women and men are equally strong now. If you want to speak, please do ;)


Love
Christina
;)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by xJonz-Admirerx
[B]:) I think the women are getting more stronger each day, remember when men used to be powerful and take over jobs, and leave women at home with the children and being a House-wife. But there is some people who enjoy being a house wife, sometimes men do it now. Women and men are equally strong now. If you want to speak, please do ;)


Love
Christina
:o very true men are not has good has women. women can do more than 1 thing at a time and men look in the mirror all day puting on they glad rags all the time going no where.

Adam : ;) Women ? do i need to say any more?

Dad(martin) : :rolleyes: Women are wonderful, i mean there more better than me. i cant cook dinner without having my wife here.

definitely women are givena lot more respect now. they're not expected to sit at home like a dog and remain housewives. i think it's great, brings more competition, improves quality of work.

:) Very true, atleast someone understands most men think its bull.

I think women have come a long way, but I don't htink that men and women are truly equal yet, especially in terms of the business world, and pay scales, etc.

Originally posted by Nightpoet
I think women have come a long way, but I don't htink that men and women are truly equal yet, especially in terms of the business world, and pay scales, etc.

But is that what defines "power"?
Also, is it necessarily a positive trait to be striving for "power"?

What is more noble, striving for success in the business world in a capitalist system, or striving to build and strengthen the family?

What is so damned important about being a monetary success, anyway?

Some will argue that women had more power over men before than they do now.

(disclaimer: I certainly do not believe that "women belong in the home" or that men are better than women of that women shouldn't recieve equal pay for equal work. I would never argue against that.)

Just some thoughts to toss around. :)

Something seriously went wrong in human society. It use to be men hunting, fishing and fighting. What do we do now for fun? Hunting, fishing and fighting. Women did all the hard stuff like gathering nuts and vegetables, making food thrashing weat, stoping men from fighting, taking care of the kids. Now guys have to do that stuff too.

DOH! :(

But is that what defines "power"?

Power - the ability to know and enforce one's Will.

Also, is it necessarily a positive trait to be striving for "power"?

Yes. If you're not striving for power, you're either dead or there's something seriously wrong with you.

What is more noble, striving for success in the business world in a capitalist system, or striving to build and strengthen the family?

The word "noble" stems from the Latin word "noscere" - to know. There is nothing "noble" about choosing to raise a family when this is not your true desire, and there is nothing ignoble about choosing to be a ruthless, heartless capitalist bitch if this is your true desire.

Some will argue that women had more power over men before than they do now.

Uh, right. Medieval divorce laws, not having any options beyond pink-collar careers, backalley abortions and being thought of as subhuman. Umm, sure makes me feel an almost godlike sense of power.

Are woman more powerful now? An interesting question that can seem to be somewhat vague. If you look at things from a certain angle you will see that many of the societies of the past have been monarchies and feudal systems, whereby families were in charge of the different countries, kingdoms and provinces. In these societies it was not uncommon for a women to have power, she could be a queen or a princess of even maybe a Czar, like Russia's Catherine the Great. But if you really think about it, except for the example I just gave of the Czar, can we really say that the woman who were queens and princess's had power? After all it was probably not them that made the decisions. But in our world, it seems that the kings are the CEOS, and they don't necessarily get there by inheritance, although some do and it is possible for a woman to be a CEO (to be a person that has power and makes important decisions). You can probably argue that they don't have the same opportunities as a man, but still many of the do make it to the top, i.e. Oprah Wimphrey, Martha Stewart and I think things are alot better for women now than they used to be, even 15 years ago. To be honest, right now I don't think many people are gaining power and that includes woman because of this terrible economy. It seems like our country is in a long-drawn out self-destruct sequence that is really coming to a head. I blame it on many things: the failure of the US to be a literate and learning society that values the "university" and what it represents besides mindless scientific ventures in thinking, vast misappropriation of resources and a multitude quite content to devour itself through consumerism. No offense but I don't think the equality of woman is or should be high on the agenda now. The real question or problem with our society is: how do we survive when what makes us most human is sucked or stomped out of us by forces which may already be out of our control.

:o im actually glad this got talked about, its a common question thats been lerking around lately. you lot have put alot of thought into this.

In Islamic countries, men can now only have 3 wives instead of 4.

i used to think there was no inequality between the sexes. i mean, i don't feel inferior. my parents never told me i was any different. but they did me a terrible disservice by not preparing me for what i'd encounter when going out into the world. the problem is not at all obvious. it manifests itself through hegemony and that's why it's so hard to fight. it's pink razors that cost twice as much but work half as well being sold by commercials portraying dumb, vain, shallow women getting way too excited about a pretty pink razor. it's men saying how wonderful it is that i've been trained to fight and it's great i can protect myself from the other men but denying that i could ever possibly kick their ass. it's my dad talking about his female boss right in front of me saying she only got the position by sleeping her way to the top (well, how else do women get good jobs?). i'd be so much happier if someone told me i was inferior from the get go so i wouldn't have to fight it on a daily basis. it would be so much easier to be barefoot & pregnant while shopping for the best bargains on pretty pretty shoes and talking about how my husband doesn't express his feelings instead of wasting my time in college.

Sweedishfish-

Great post!!
Very well said.

Damn. Well said.

Because it's the double standard that fucks you up the ass. It's when your fellow intellectuals look down on you for being female and deny that they do. It's when you grow up thinking that, yeah, sure sexism exists, but it's not going to affect me because I'm an academic, my fellow academics won't fall for that bullshit.

But they do, and you're betrayed by your own. And then you start to wonder about your friends, your lover. So what do you do? You prove yourself until it becomes a neurosis and then - even when you prove yourself sucessfully, they've still beaten you.

I would point out that it is rather insidious to think that all woman get to the top because they have slept their way to the top although I imagine some women do. I would bet that those that do don't last at the top because they don't really have the character needed to sustain a career. A prostitute is a prostitute, how many years can a prostitute stay active. Therefore the same goes, how many years can these women with self-destructive personalities stay on top. You can bet Oprah and Martha didn't sleep their way to the top, eventhough you can argue that they don't exactly have the looks to make that happen. And as to the advertising, the advertising reflects alot of false bullshit about us men too. About being able to stand up to a man in a fight, I wouldn't worry to much about this, although their are some woman that can kick a man's ass, fighting is just not worth it. Maybe because you are a woman most men don't respect you and you want to be respected. I can relate because I am a slender intellectual looking dude and most guys don't give me alot of respect even though I am more of a real man than they are. Face it you are never going to change these ignorant assholes but I still wouldn't discourage you from speaking your mind and trying to change perceptions.

Another point is that sometimes you have to curb your feminist fury and bitchiness and negative outlook and realize that we have made real strides towards equality in America and things don't change over night. Keep in mind opportunities for woman will probably get better, but for now, the economy is bad and times are rough for everybody. Woman are now able to be CEOs or anything they want to be, in the military, they have their own professional sports! You can't overlook all that in your all out push for more, more, more. Remember woman in the job market is a relatively new phenomenon and so now you have twice as many people (men + women) going for the same number of jobs. A change for more equality for woman is part of the reason unemployment is up and the economy is bad. I know the worst thing you can say to modern ears is "you have to be patient" but its the truth because many of the paradigms that our society is based on are in a transition period towards different and possibly better forms. Things will get better for woman as long as it is your choice and you make your voice heard, why can't your propaganda be powerful, surely the advertiser's who are selling those cute pink razors send powerful messages. Keep speaking up for your rights, who knows maybe a world where woman have more rights and are more important will be a better more civil world, any change would really do right now and a strong man like me doesn't feel threatened at a woman's attempt to gain power, I say more power to you.

Anyway, you ladies also have to keep in mind that you may be a minority or a step away from the norm. Most woman probably don't share your passion or at least feel it to the same extent you do and probably the world for the most part doesn't either, so you always have to think that you will face solid opposition and are a minority, which means you really have to have patient for things to move forward.

Whatever a woman does, a man can do better. Before you dare
mention it, NO; we cannot become pregnant or give birth. Wow,
congrats... you can out-do us at ONE THING. Oh, and crying... let
us not forget the chick logic as well (which is doing something and
rationalizing it later, such as cheating on someone and thinking
that it isn't your fault because the guy approached you and not
the other way around)...

No matter what anyone wants to throw my way, I've seen it over
and over again: men surpass women at practically everything. The
end...

Originally posted by SoLiDUS
No matter what anyone wants to throw my way, I've seen it over
and over again: men surpass women at practically everything. The
end...

I am curious.
Are you heterosexual or do you date these women that you obviously have such a low opinion of?

If you are straight, do you enjoy being in relationships with woman that are so below you or do you wish you could find an equal?

Are you happy with the mysoginistic position you find yourself in?

One can not suspect Janet Reno from sleeping her way to the top....

Anyway the freedom a women has to manifest herself as an important decision maker on average seems to be tied directly to the state of the economy.

In poor economies things get more primitive and we fight wars over the scarce resources. This is typically a male thing

There are always exceptions, but in general, if we look at poor countries, females are heavily exploited.

Originally posted by one_raven
I am curious.
Are you heterosexual or do you date these women that you obviously have such a low opinion of?

If you are straight, do you enjoy being in relationships with woman that are so below you or do you wish you could find an equal?

Are you happy with the mysoginistic position you find yourself in?

Yes, I'm heterosexual. Yes, I "date" these women... and by these
I mean ALL, because they're all the fukn' same. I put that word in
quotation marks because I don't really date: I lay. If I find a lady I
truly like, I will spend a little more time with her and see if she is
worth staying with for a good portion of my life. You misunderstand
me, one_raven: I don't hate women at all. I have simply come to the
conclusion that they do not best men at anything. That doesn't mean
they're not good at a certain thing but instead should stop trying to
best us at everything, or spout that they are our equals.

*A minor edit*

I did not mean to say that they didn't deserve the same rights:
they do. Oh, and can we stop this charade... this supposed war
on drugs !? It's not only stupid and useless, but hypocritical. Thx.
;)

Women work in offices better than men sometimes.

SOMETIMES, x-jonz. :D

In response to these three quotes:

Solidus said:
"Whatever a woman does, a man can do better... let
us not forget the chick logic as well (which is doing something and
rationalizing it later, such as cheating on someone and thinking
that it isn't your fault because the guy approached you and not
the other way around)..."

and...

"Yes, I'm heterosexual. Yes, I "date" these women... and by these I mean ALL, because they're all the fukn' same. I put that word in quotation marks because I don't really date: I lay... You misunderstand me, one_raven: I don't hate women at all."

Jonz Admirer said:
"Women work in offices better than men sometimes."

I have personally experienced that chick logic and he has a point here. Woman will cheat on you and then find away to rationalize that it wasn't cheating. It makes getting involved with someone a daunting thing. Even the most moral, good, kind, nice woman can all of a sudden get horny and then there are a hundred guys around ready to have sex with them. I think woman are bigger cheaters than men very much because they do not see it as a big deal, but just as something they wanted and needed, and girls don't really feel remorseful/pity/apologetic too often.

Some of us men on the other hand could never ever keep it a secret from our mate like woman can and we will feel horrible. I think alot of this comes down to biology, woman bear and protect the young, so they are not going to feel bad about anything external to the preservation of their seed. The biological imperative also tells them that since they are the "accursed" gender who must bleed regularly and bear children and must bare all of the other stigmas that they are subjected to, i.e. if a woman is promiscuous she is seen as a slut, they sometimes feel entitled to a thing like a little sex on the side once in a while. Woman are just considered the special sex in a way, which partially is because they are the child-bearers but not totally because of it, and they can get away with certain things that men cannot and they will let themsleves get away with things men cannot let themselves get away with.

On the other side of all this, maybe the reason Solidus is finding the type of woman that are cheaters is because he is just looking at woman as lays, which I think another poster was trying to get out by saying that if the girl is beneath him, he should not hang out with her. If you are looking for lays, then you are going to find woman that are also looking for lays. The world reflects you.

As for men being better than woman in everything. I think that god or whovever is responsible for our appearance on earth, gave some skills to men and some skills to woman, because he knew that we would have to come togther to have sex, make babies and then look after the offspring. If man and woman are created as a team, which if you think about the myth where people were originally rolled up into a ball and then were split apart by Zeus to produce man, woman and hermaphrodite, is rather true then you can clearly see that it would be stupid to give to a man and woman talents and skills that they didn't need.

But to return to the argument, I think that woman are better than men at some things. If you watch the television show Survivor you would have seen that in one of the challenges there was a balance beam and certain men couldn't get across, but the woman got across effortlessly. Perhaps woman are better at balance. Perhaps thats why jonz-admirer said that women are sometimes better at working in an office because women are better at balancing tasks i.e. multi-tasking, than men. Men on the whole have somewhat clumsy minds and the mental paper sometimes falls out of them. Still, the office thing could also be because men don't like to feel confined and have alot of aggressive energy, whereas woman are by nature more calm and their biology makes them more able to stay in confine spaces without losing much comfort. This may also come from biology, i.e. their natural instinctual behavior is to stay home most of the time and care for and protect their offspring and their home, whereas the man's instincts tell him to go out and hunt and procure food for the family, but it is also to a certain degree societal conditioning.


Anyway, to be honest, I really don't like most women which may or may not be surprising from my words. I don't think they live according to internal principles to the same degree as men and are not as concerned with being as moral as men. I do however like certain woman, I usually know if they come to me for ideas or friendship they are at least to a certain degree "real" and deserve my respect.

They'll only be powerful if men let them. :D

I have personally experienced that chick logic and he has a point here. Woman will cheat on you and then find away to rationalize that it wasn't cheating. It makes getting involved with someone a daunting thing. Even the most moral, good, kind, nice woman can all of a sudden get horny and then there are a hundred guys around ready to have sex with them. I think woman are bigger cheaters than men very much because they do not see it as a big deal, but just as something they wanted and needed, and girls don't really feel remorseful/pity/apologetic too often.

Keep the following in mind: throughout time, women always had
TWO MEN in their lives; one to bring her the necessary things to
survive and one for pleasure. This instinct has survived to this day.

It's no wonder most women get tired of their submissive husband
and go out there for some "adventure". Also, you can't be an alpha
and a provider at the same time, as they cancel out: just hope that
if you find a girl, she'll have been indoctrinated (well, brainwashed)
enough NOT to go out there and cheat on you.

:p

Was this before we became humans, like apes running in packs, how come I don't know about this? You are full of baloney dude. Maybe one day you will be lucky enough to find a woman that really cares about you and really loves you and that will be enough of a reason for her not to cheat on you. Of course none of us want to be suckers, but we shouldn't get too cynical either.

Solidus, only after the invention of Money by ourselves, it was that some females developed the tactic of having a loverboy AND a seperate trustworthy yet boring provider...

....when no money around it's only the strong monkey that can defend the territory and claim the fruit that hangs from the trees. More room for muscle and less room for C++ programmers in the wild...

Money made things more abstract (we males can buy sex for money now, great invention if you are a weak ugly schmoe, you no longer have to physically battle some alpha competitor, just have more money in your purse) and hence more complicated than good old feromones... Today we encounter several moments where where our mind says ...NO and our willie says YES! trying to match our highly developed rational thinking (or at least what we would like to believe) with our forgotten basic instincts....

But coming back to the orignal question, yes females are without a doubt in an improved position in many countries, compared to 100 years ago, it has to do with enough money and education floating around to afford luxuries like that....

...If you are a strong healthy male, try to beat this:

http://www.iaaf.org/news/Kind=2/newsId=20983.html

So you're telling me women didn't stay in caves with men willing
to share their hole apart from the group ? Are you also telling me
that they didn't fuck with the attractive alphas ? Get real.

:rolleyes:

Money wasn't the start of this: if anything, it only made it more convenient and easy for the women to identify a potential beta.

i completely agree. men are the better sex. most women are stupid, worthless, fickle beings. they've been trained that way from birth. i can't stand them, but it's not like they can help it. from even before they leave the womb*, they are bombarded with messages about how they are supposed to be. and they're supposed to be f*cking morons. that is the real inequality. forget about job status, voting and little insignificant rights. it's not about that. you're righter than right about everything you said about women. my parents raised me as a boy among my brothers and let me tell you, it is so much better being a boy. it's hard being treated like a girl when you don't feel like one. i wish everyone would knock it off.

*studies have been done showing that pregnant women who know the sex of their baby eat way less if they are having a girl and more if it's a boy. the girls are started on a diet before they are even born!

Women can bench press more than they use to.

Originally posted by Joeman
Women can bench press more than they use to.

:rolleyes:

;)

There are some bad things and some good

Physically they cannot be stronger. A women may learn karate or something but against some 250 lb muscular man you might want a weapon. There are some girls that may be able to kick a guys ass but I can find somebody that can beat her also. In a fight, if all things are equal, I would always put my money on the guy.

In a single parent family who usually has the custody? The mother. This means that women are more often head of the family so that they are the ones raising the children.

The thing about corporate America is that if a women tries to have a family she will have to take time off for having a baby. 1-2 or even 3 years. Meanwhile the male counter part is working these years so ofcourse he will be filling higher positions.

I think back in traditional tribal times men and women had an equal balance of power if not the women had more. Men were important for fighting and hunting but women made cool stuff like beer and they gathered stuff that was necissary for the males to live on. In Eskimo societies a man cannot live without a women.

In Feudal times I think women status reached an all time low. They were literaly just for fucking and rasing kids then. Men were for soldiers and farming. Thats mostly what the nobles wanted.

So what is wrong with western society today I think is from Fedual times. Women have been getting better from those times but it has been gradual process.