http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/08/04/china.taiwan/index.html Taiwan has been a sovereign country for all practical purpose since the 50's. A tiny bit of quick and dirty info: Because Taiwan used to have a large percentage of first generation Chinese born immigrants, and those people control the politics, their policy was to reunited with China whenever China will adopt capitalism and democracy. Right now Chinese in Taiwan are gradually losing control. The popular opinion have shifted from re-united to independent about 10 years ago. China already changed to capitalism and hold local elections in many places. It is just matter of time before you see democracy in China when old commies die out, but the Taiwan now is unwilling to re-unite with China. That is partially because of the growing cultural differences and a surge of nationalism in Taiwan. According to latest CNN Poll, most people in US support Taiwan independence, but the politicians in US are afraid of a civil war. Not only it would have great economic implications, but they have to make very tough decisions on whether to send troops to defend Taiwan. The rumor is Taiwan won't declare independence unless they have something up their sleeves, like nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons. They have been pursuing weapons of mass destruction longer than any countries in Mid-East, but since they only worry about China, nobody cares.
Yes, and if they wish independence, they should have it. I hope they do not declare it, or if they do, China does not oppose it. That would be a very nasty situation.
In case you don't know, if they vote with their heart, they will definitely get waaayyyyy more than 50% of the vote. But they are going to vote with their head because they will have to consider the consequences. I have seen this discussion elsewhere. Most people say "hell yeah, free them from the evil commies." That's the opinion of their heart NOT their head. People must consider the implication if they do declare independence especially if Americans soldiers lifes might be lost.
If People's Republic of China doesn't attack Taiwan with nuclear weapons then it can't take over it. My father has very close relations with Taiwan and assured me in that. He had a talk with their prime minister some 4 or 5 years ago. They completely control the part of the sea between China and Taiwan, they have submarines , all the newest technologies. A 100% chance to hit down any non-continental rocket, before it reaches Taiwan. China can't take any live force to Taiwan- because the air space is also completely controlled by earth-air rockets (bought from the US). The only thing China could do is send a nuclear rocket from a high orbit. And I don't really think that China will use nuclear weapons. + A very large part of the China's ecconomy depends on Taiwan. Taiwan yearly invests billions of dollars into Mainland China - as they call it. China is not interested at the moment to take over Taiwan, it only talks much... Maybe only years later...
If Taiwan were to declare their independence the situation would detereorate rapidly. While any invasion of Taiwan is impossible China could simply lob thousands of non-nuclear rockets and devistate the island. Although most people would survive in bomb shelters busineses would be destroyed lack of food would quickly become a problem. There really isn't much anyone could do unless there was plenty of warning and the US brought in more warships. The only thing this would accomplish for China is the destruction of a modern society for Taiwan. Best not to rouse Chinsa anger.
Joeman: somehow you seem to think that communism and fascism are hand in hand 100%, and capitalism and democracy are in hand 100%. Well, that certainly isn't true. A country can have a privatized economy with a dictatorship, or a communistic economy with a democracy. Go take a look at Tokelau, the one example that shows that Communism comes naturally to those who know not of lying and cheating, but only caring and compassion. That's what capitalism is-- lying is purposefully rewarded, cheating is a beautiful thing, some twits even call cheating "working hard" (don't get me wrong, what most people say is "working hard" is really TYB [trying your best] as it suggests) Now, for a little clarification of terms: I'm quite confused here. When you say China, are you referring to the People's Republic of China (Zhong Hua Ren Min Gong He Guo), or the Republic of China (Zhong Hua Min Guo)? It's quite confusing Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Taiwan, undoubtedly, refers to Tai Wan, or Toi Bun as the uneducated call it. (those locals that are uneducated, I can't imagine any American calling the island Toi Bun) However, when you say China generally unless you are more specific I will take this to mean the Republic of China (Zhong Hua Min Guo) as it is the modern embodiment of the government of a united China (Nationalist, Guo Min) which, quite potentially, is not what you meant. Generally, when I speak of Zhong Hua Ren Min Gong He Guo, I say "PRC", and when I speak of Zhong Hua Min Guo, I say "ROC". ---------------------------- Now, the UN still considers Zhong Hua Ren Min Gong He Guo the legitimate government of both the Mainland and Tai Wan, as the Guo Min Dang government of Tai Wan is the same government that lost power on the Mainland so many years ago. Therefore the Guo Min Dang is seen officially by the UN as a government in exile, and the Guo Min Dang's official position on the Mainland is that they are indeed the legit government of it, however nobody pursues that at the moment as it would obviously lead to catastrophe for both Zhong Hua Min Guo and the Guo Min Dang. The current official name of Tai Wan given by the Guo Min Dang is "Zhong Hua Min Guo", and this was also given as the legit name of Mainland China when under rule by the Guo Min Dang-- so you can see here why the UN might see it as an exiled government and not the legit government of any speck of land. Many will say that the only reason the UN does not see the Guo Min Dang as a legit government of anywhere is because of the PRC lobby against it and because the PRC has so much power in the UN, however this isn't entirely true and the UN is afraid, as it is in the case of American violations of treaties, to take sides or take any action. I say, Zhong Hua Min Guo, don't declare independence, lie low for now. Zhong Hua Ren Min Gong He Guo, don't declare Tai Wan a province of your own. Both of you will heed these warnings if you know what's good for you-- if PRC takes action on it's claim that Tai Wan is a province, then the US will intervene and take military action, if the US or ROC makes a move, then obviously we will see PRC taking action. At least the USSR is no longer behind PRC (they're no longer existant, for that matter, they only exist in the form of the international organization CIS), that would make things worse if something happened. If anybody wants images for the hanzi of any Mandarin words used in this post, ask away and I will post them for you. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! PS From now on I will take all insults on a thread-by-thread basis, if anybody insults me on this thread I will see it as the first move regardless of what may have happened in other threads-- that is to be pursued in those threads.
GB-GIL Trans-global, I may not agree with your thoughts but I would thank you for an excellent post. Further you have demonstrated that name calling is not necessary to state your thoughts. In this post you were direct in your thoughts and demonstrated that you have at some point researched for some material to provide discussion with. More posts of this nature are definately in order as they raise the level of sciforums to what it should be. *takes off glove smeared with butter* Would you please...
GB-GIL-TransGlobal posted: First of all, are you really stating that there are people who don't know about lying and cheating? This is an incredible claim. Do you have any evidence to back this up? Secondly, one example cannot be extrapolated to cover a system in general. That is intelectually dishonest and logically unsound. On what evidence do you claim that communism comes naturally to honest , compassionate, caring people? Lastly, lying and cheating do exist and sometimes they are rewarded but this is not unusual in any society reguardless of political or economic system. What evidence do you have to show that "lying is puposefully rewarded" and that "cheating is a beautifull thing" in capitalism? On what evidence do you attack capitalism but not any other system for these flaws? Your definition of capitalism isn't a definition at all but is merely unfounded attack. You have made some outrageous claims and I'd like to see any evidence you have that backs any of them up. I also don't see any logic in your arguments. Was this simply a rant? If so then ignore my post.
Anyone who believes communism is a superior economic system is uneducated. Anyone who believes communism is better at achieving the objective of helping and caring is not only uneducated by retarded I don't give a shit. The only person confused is you. China is mainland, and Taiwan is the island. Taiwan is how they pronouce it in the island. I have never heard of toi bun. I have been to both China and Taiwan. I speak both languages. Being supertechnical is unnecessary and counter productive for discussion purpose. It is more like showing off than aiding the discussion.
If GB turns out to be a chink, that would explain why he is obssessed with communism and his anti-Israeli bias.
Taiwan is independent for all intensive purposes. The PRC's claim that the island is a renegade province is unfounded. I highly doubt that even if Taiwan announced its independence from the mainland, that China would do much. The American Navy would show up and send the Chineese Navy back to port in a hurry.
Many thanks for your civilized responce (note the z to avoid confusion with people thinking my opinions no longer matter because I'm from UK or Eire or Canada or Australia, although I certainly to prefer s spellings) GB-GIL Trans-global, I may not agree with your thoughts but I would thank you for an excellent post. Further you have demonstrated that name calling is not necessary to state your thoughts. In this post you were direct in your thoughts and demonstrated that you have at some point researched for some material to provide discussion with. More posts of this nature are definately in order as they raise the level of sciforums to what it should be. *takes off glove smeared with butter* Thanks, I appreciate your ability to respond in a fairly educated and intellectual manner Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Would you please... Can do... however you'll have to wait a sec since I plan on replying to the other responses first...
GB-GIL-TransGlobal posted:First of all, are you really stating that there are people who don't know about lying and cheating? This is an incredible claim. Do you have any evidence to back this up? I didn't mean they didn't know of lying and cheating, simply that they've all but forgotten about it and they find that nobody gets ahead. Secondly, one example cannot be extrapolated to cover a system in general. That is intelectually dishonest and logically unsound. On what evidence do you claim that communism comes naturally to honest , compassionate, caring people? While I may have said that (which I do not recall), I meant that communism comes naturally once a society has found that they have expelled completely lying and cheating from their society. While this may not be true (as this single island is the only example of such a society to date, there is no way to really tell), there is no evidence for the opposite. Whether you believe that communism is in place in Tokelau or not, you might want to look into it more to see how this society functions and how for hundreds of years the Tokelauans have followed a system of communism-- anything that anybody gains is divided equally among the whole community. However this might not work well in a modern society, while these people do have minor economic concerns (massive revenue from technological pursuits such as the promotion and sale of their very own TLD, which you can get for free if you aren't a Fortune 1000 company) they certainly don't have massive amount of money that might inhibit greed-- but still, keep in mind that in even the most primitive of societies (except perhaps this one in the heart of the Pacific), greed has still prevailed even when the only thing to gain is something very small. Greed is human nature, however with everybody's efforts, we can make mankind forget about it except perhaps in textbooks to teach our children the ills of it. I'm for this... are you? Lastly, lying and cheating do exist and sometimes they are rewarded but this is not unusual in any society reguardless of political or economic system. What evidence do you have to show that "lying is puposefully rewarded" and that "cheating is a beautifull thing" in capitalism? On what evidence do you attack capitalism but not any other system for these flaws? Your definition of capitalism isn't a definition at all but is merely unfounded attack. Sorry, I didn't say what I meant... big error. What I *meant* to say is that capitalism encourages a dog-eat-dog mentality-- large corporations are encouraged to drive out of business small mom-and-pop businesses. If you look at the salaries of many corporate executives, you'll find that you don't think they deserve that much. While in an ideal capitalistic system, these people do deserve more than many others, they definitely don't deserve as much as they probably earn. And I never said it was a definition. So your claim that it's an unfounded attack I must say is perfectly valid given the circumstances. You have made some outrageous claims and I'd like to see any evidence you have that backs any of them up. I also don't see any logic in your arguments. Was this simply a rant? If so then ignore my post. I didn't ignore your post because it wasn't a rant. In my opinion, you went on the defensive too early, while you were still reading the very start of my post and didn't consider much what it might mean besides an outright attack on capitalism. I must admit that I wouldn't be very bourgeoise if the US were a communist society.
Anyone who believes communism is a superior economic system is uneducated. Anyone who believes communism is better at achieving the objective of helping and caring is not only uneducated by retarded Here I suspect you will again cite over and over, overenthusiastically, numbers of people killed by the KGB or by PRC incursions into Tibet. Well, these don't prove much about communism, just about the states that committed the atrocities. Oh, and thanks for the insults. They've been noted. I will request that you read the end of my first post in this thread... I don't give a shit. The only person confused is you. China is mainland, and Taiwan is the island. Taiwan is how they pronouce it in the island. I have never heard of toi bun. If you didn't notice, I knew very well what was being talked about, however I wanted to demonstrate that people should be more specific (here I expect much cussing and insults in response from you. please see the end of my first post in this thread!) Tai Wan is how they say it in Mandarin on the island. However, 80% of the population speaks Min Nan aka Hokkien aka Taiwanese aka Daiwanwei (most of the rest speak Ke Jia aka Hakka), while only the educated speak Mandarin. Toi Bun is how you say Tai Wan in Min Nan Yu. Therefore, it is how they pronounce it on the island. (in most official speeches, they'd say Tai Wan as most official speeches are in Mandarin, however Ke Jia and Min Nan are certainly gaining way over Mandarin in Tai Wan) I wouldn't be surprised if you denied the existance of any Sinitic language but Mandarin and perhaps Cantonese (Yue)-- one most certainly must not forget Min Bei, Min Dong, Min Zhong, Wu, Gan, Xiang, Hakka, Min Nan, and at least 5 more. They're all distinct languages with more than 1,000,000 speakers (except Min Dong, Min Zhong, and 1 or 2 of the languages I didn't mention here). Now I usually wouldn't go into this, however you begged the response by saying that Toi Bun is not used and implying therefore that you wish to deny the existance of Min Nan. I have been to both China and Taiwan. I speak both languages. Being supertechnical is unnecessary and counter productive for discussion purpose. It is more like showing off than aiding the discussion. You speak both languages? Well, if you haven't heard Toi Bun, the "both languages" part certainly mistifies me unless you think Guo Yu and Pu Tong Hua are different languages. Either that, or you're thinking that a nonstandard Sinitic language (anything besides Mandarin, unfortunately, except in Hong Kong, Macao, and more and more in Tai Wan, although it is most certainly a minority language in many places where it is official, ie Singapore and many regions of PRC) is China's language. Here I must say you are mistaken. Mandarin is spoken in the form of Pu Tong Hua by 73% of the population of PRC, and is the most spoken language as a native language of all the languages on Earth. (English is second, Spanish is third, although Hindustani, spoken in Pakistan and India, is arguably third although most say it is fourth) The other Sinitic languages only make up for 15% of the Chinese population (if I recall correctly), the rest is accounted for by "national minorities" such as Tibetan, Uighur, Mongolian, and tens of smaller languages. So while I certainly think other Sinitic languages deserve more recognition, Mandarin is most certainly one or both of "both languages", for sure that of China, over something like Wu or Xiang or Ke Jia. And while I may not have been to Zhong Hua Ren Min Gong He Guo or Zhong Hua Min Guo, I can probably say I am a more prominent expert in the field of Chinese linguistics than are you. (note the lack of insults, again please refer to the end of my first response to this thread)
First of all, your use of epithets has been noted and will probably be reported to a moderator. (no, while I may have called people "stupid" or "fuckwit", ne'er have I insulted people with their race, gender, or sexual orientation as have you in many different threads) Second of all, I'm a white male and not an Asian. Third of all, most Chinese people in the US that are from PRC are anti-Communist. Fourth, I'm quite surprised you associate being of Asian descent with anti-Israeli bias (or to you, anti-Semetism-- please!), as most East Asians are indifferent to Jews vs. Arabs. Actually, many Chinese people hate Muslims (or all organized monotheistic religion, for that matter-- I have many a friend from PRC or ROC who hates theists, Christians especially just because of their "obsession with their God and being so ignorant about spreading their religion to others, while stifling other cultures in the process") Oh, and one more arguement against me being an anti-Semite-- my mother is a Jew, I love her very much, half of my family is Jewish, I love them very much, I have many Jewish friends, and many more friends that are Jewish that I do not know are Jewish because I don't go around checking. Most of my friends that are religious I automatically assume are Atheists until I find otherwise, after which I make no judgement based on religion. I'm simply against the state of Israel because of political actions, not because of religious affiliation. If Israelis were Arabs and Palestinians were Israelis, then I would side with the Israelis... err... the Palestinians... I mean... well, the people that would be Palestinians after the switch but Israelis before. Ehh...
That wasn't an insult. If I want to insult someone I make it obvious. That was a fact. People educated in economics would not buy into communism unless they are retarded. I don't give a shit. Taiwan is how we say it in US. This is an English board not Chinese board. What is there to confuse about? What you are doing just confuse people more unless you are just showing off. I am sure that is what you are doing. That figure is wrong. It is closer to 90% than 80%. Only 13% of people on the Island are born in China. A lot of them have picked up native language. Everyone born on the Island speaks both. Everyone speaks Mandarin because everyone is educated. Nope. Daie Wan is how you say it. I have never heard of that before. 100% speaks or understand Mandrine and Min Nan. Kuh Jia is rare. What is gaining popularity are native aborigin tribal languages. Min Nan has mutated in Taiwan and no longer easily recognizable for Min Nan speakers in China. I like cheese. This is not a language thread. Stop showing off by going off topic. There is nothing to clarify that is necessary for this topic.
So your excuse is your insults are prettier than mine so it's okay? The only person I insult is you. You were the original aggressor. So you think fuckwits or idiots hurt people less than fag or chink? Why don't you just admit you decided to stop insults because in last flame war against me you folded like a lawn chair. I was just trying to stop you from insulting people left and right. If you stop I will stop also. Unlike you, I don't enjoy in flaming people. True Nope. What I meant is Chinese in mainland China. Israel is one of the very few countries still have diplomatic ties with Taiwan. Any countries must choose between China or Taiwan to have diplomatic relation with.
I'm going to create a NO-BITCHING provision for the World Events and Politics forum. If people aren't intelligent enough to defend their position, or are too concieted to admit when they are wrong or beaten then don't participate in a debate.
Be specific please. In this thread what is there to be confused about "Taiwan" and "China"? Everyone knows what I am talking about but him. He then goes on to talk about the different languages in China. What does this have anything to do with anything? Tell him to stop hijacking this thread by showing off.
