Do you have a non-xtian spouse? Or a parent?

Do they believe in other religions? Or not at all?

What sort of relationship do you have with family/spouses who do not share your faith? Is it a good relationship? Very loving?

Or is it indifferent? or strained? separated?

Just curious. ;)

***Do you have a non-xtian spouse?***

Yes.

***Or a parent?***

Yes. (deceased)

***Do they believe in other religions?***

Spouse - no.

Father believed in gambling. ;)

***Or not at all?***

Spouse believes in God* but not religion.

Although not explicitly declared, father was atheist.

***What sort of relationship do you have with family/spouses who do not share your faith? Is it a good relationship? Very loving? Or is it indifferent? or strained? separated? ***

Very loving relationship with family. Very loving and passionate relationship with spouse. We've been married for decades. My faith is discussed with my family only when they ask questions. I've never liked people preaching to me so I try not to preach to others. Otherwise, my faith is expressed through my interactions with my family and the community. For example, yesterday, our home was the gathering place for family and some friends who had otherwise been ostracized to some extent. Our guests included and elderly prostitute, a woman who had been physically abused and abandoned by her husband, a young lesbian, a convicted drunk driver and a couple nearing 40 who have not yet been able to conceive. It was humbling when the group asked me to say grace before our meal. Everyone got along well. My granddaughter kept a smile on everyone's face and we had some in-depth discussions about life that lasted well into the night. It seemed like nobody wanted to leave. It was really a wonderful time. Life is great.

Father kept us laughing with his carrying on and jokes when he was in a good mood and crying because of his gambling other times. If it wasn't for our mother, we would have spent most of the time hungry and homeless. Except that we all knew that he would be willing to kill or die for us if anyone else dared to try and hurt us - he didn't really seem to know how to express fatherly love - he was severely abused as a child and too caught up in gambling as an adult. Things were strained because of the gambling. Mom did as much as she could but we did without some things that people take for granted, such as a telephone (all of the time) and electricity (some of the time). There were even a couple of times when we were evicted. Us kids found out when we came home from school to see our belongings out on the street. It was embarassing at the time, to say the least. My siblings and I are all adults now but we are still split in our perceptions about Dad. Half of us think that he was just a mean SOB and half of us think that he was just a man with a serious problem. Go figure.

GODx,

If that's your picture on the website, you look like you could be my brother's twin.

Here is the flip side. My wife has a non-xtian spouse......me!!!!! Overall our relationship is wonderful. I leaned many things about Christians from her. Some good and some bad. But there will always be tensions in the back of our minds. The fact that we will never connect on a certain level. Her religion would never allow her to open her mind enough to see my views. And my views would never allow myself to close my mind enough to comprehend her religion. Even though we both deeply believe in "God", they are two completely different perspectives. It seems everytime we talk about the subject she gets very defensive, yet I am able to sit through a church service every Sunday. I also have to live with the fact that she is taught and believes that I am going to hell. It is pretty upsetting sometimes. But other than that our relationship is great :D

My Parents both grew up around religion. My Mom was Catholic and my Dad was Methodist. Fortunately for me, they couldn't decide what kind of church to send me to. They were most likely fighting about. I should probably thank them...huh? :D I'm so lucky I didn't have to go to church when I was younger. Who knows what my life would have been like :(

My parent were never real religious, they just did it because their family did it and so on. Traditionally, for the most part. Our relationship isn't effected at all because of religion, the topic never even comes up. All in All we have a good relationship.

Peace

***What sort of relationship do you have with family/spouses who do not share your faith? Is it a good relationship? Very loving? Or is it indifferent? or strained? separated? ***

Very loving relationship with family. Very loving and passionate relationship with spouse. We've been married for decades. Thank you for the detailed reply b-c. You put into action what many may only leave in words.

ANother question, if one may -

Do you believe your spouse is going to hell?

If I'm not mistaken, xtian thinking is that all non-believers go to hell.

+++


I also have to live with the fact that she is taught and believes that I am going to hell. It is pretty upsetting sometimes. But other than that our relationship is great
Lightbeing, :) You go the point I was trying to make. Mainly - how can a xtian claim to sincerely love his/her spouse, and at the same time, believe that the spouse will spend eternity in suffering.

Does she care so little for your welfare as to be willing to let you suffer pain eternally?

Let's see what b-c has to say about this... :)

GODx,

***Do you believe your spouse is going to hell?

If I'm not mistaken, xtian thinking is that all non-believers go to hell.***

Honestly, I don't think much about hell. Not as it might apply to me or anyone else. My personal relationship with God* is through Jesus Christ and it is based on love rather than a fear of hell. I know salvation to take place in the here and now. Therefore, hell could be said to exist in the here and now also. Hell, more than anything else I think, is an absence of God* in one's life. I think someone who has a loving relationship with God* in the here and now will continue to be with God* in the future.

To know God* is to love God* and I know God* through Jesus Christ. Some might know God* through other modes of knowing (many of which stem from knowing God* either directly or indirectly through the teachings of Jesus Christ which are well-known throughout the world). Anyway, I believe that those of us who are well aware of God* and who deny God* in this life will probably not be with God* in the future. Then there are those of us who cry "Lord, Lord" and then intentionally do harm to others, sometimes even in the name of God*, with the false belief that the words which come out of our mouths will save us. Then there are those of us who, for whatever reason, do not come to consciously know God* in this life but who are with God* in righteousness in this life regardless and who will come to know and love God* at the second coming. Some of them will be last to know and the first to be with God* in the future.

Blonde Cupid,

Seems to me that you are avoiding the question. It doesn't matter whether you think about it or not. It is simple question, Do you believe your Husband will burn in Hell, the way the Bible suggests? And if so, how can you believe in such a concept. Because it is written? Your husband that you have been together with for decades and would do anything for you. The man that also believes in God. Do you think he will burn?

Also, the concept of Hell, is a big part of Christianity. It plays a huge roll in the Christian Propaganda.

LIGHTBEING,

***Do you believe your Husband will burn in Hell, the way the Bible suggests?***

I don't think that's what the Bible says. And, no, knowing what I do about my spouse's relationship with God* I do not believe that my spouse will be separated from God* in the future.

LIGHTBEING,

***Also, the concept of Hell, is a big part of Christianity.***

As I explained, the concept of hell does not play a part in my faith which is based on love of God* not fear of hell.

Blonde Cupid,

That is actually good to know. I'm glad you don't think like the rest of them

BUT......

doesn't the Bible mention if you are not saved through Jesus then you will not be with God. You can only get to the father thru the son? Isn't this the Book you follow?

Hell, more than anything else I think, is an absence of God* in one's life.

Hell must be a great place. Where do I sign up?

Q,

Well, if you deny God* I'd say you're already there.

Well, if you deny God* I'd say you're already there.

I can't be in Hell because I live in a world where some people still believe in Gods.

So where would I be if I never gave this so-called God any thought whatsoever? In other words, I would have no reason to deny or not deny God.

LIGHTBEING,

***doesn't the Bible mention if you are not saved through Jesus then you will not be with God. You can only get to the father thru the son?***

In a way, however, I don't think it's literally the way you seem to understand it. (If you're interested, I'll have to get back to you to explain what I mean by this in more detail later).

***Isn't this the Book you follow?***

I try to live according to the teachings of God*s Word, Jesus Christ.

Q,

***I can't be in Hell because I live in a world where some people still believe in Gods.***

It has nothing to do with what other people believe.

Q,

***So where would I be if I never gave this so-called God any thought whatsoever? In other words, I would have no reason to deny or not deny God.***

I touched on this in a previous response:

Then there are those of us who, for whatever reason, do not come to consciously know God* in this life but who are with God* in righteousness in this life regardless and who will come to know and love God* at the second coming. Some of them will be last to know and the first to be with God* in the future.

It has nothing to do with what other people believe.

When those that believe in Gods have control over certain facets of your life, then it has everything to do with what other people believe. That said, even Hell is not devoid of Gods.

My preference would be to live in a world where the concept of Gods doesn't exist.

Oh what a wonderful world it would be. :)

Q,

***When those that believe in Gods have control over certain facets of your life, then it has everything to do with what other people believe.***

Knowing God* and loving God* should not cause anyone to control your life. What is it that you believe people who believe in God* are doing to control certain facets of your life?

Knowing God* and loving God* should not cause anyone to control your life. What is it that you believe people who believe in God* are doing to control certain facets of your life?

Not directly of course. I would never allow that to happen.

Indirectly, people in power that believe in Gods make decisions based on their beliefs. Is not George Bush under fire for exactly this issue? Is he not controlling the lives of millions of people with his religious beliefs?

Q: Maybe it's like Shroedinger's cat?

Light:
doesn't the Bible mention if you are not saved through Jesus then you will not be with God. You can only get to the father thru the son? Isn't this the Book you follow?

Yeah, it is all over the NT. John 15:6 Matthew 7:13-14, 24:50-51, 25:30, 25:41, 25:46. Mark 16:16

Probably more. I don't feel like searching.

On topic, I knew a guy who asked his girlfriend (he was a somthing or other, she was a Christian) if she would kill him if God asked her to. She said she would.

Bye-bye to that one.

Bizzare form of pillow talk, if you ask me. But interesting.

Originally posted by blonde_cupid
I know salvation to take place in the here and now. Therefore, hell could be said to exist in the here and now also. Hell, more than anything else I think, is an absence of God* in one's life. I think someone who has a loving relationship with God* in the here and now will continue to be with God* in the future. From your reply, b-c, it seems that you and Truthseeker have some beliefs in common. You define hell as "abscence of god", and I suppose, heaven to you would be "loving relationship with god." If heaven and hell are both on earth - Are you saying that there is no afterlife?

However, you also say -
Originally posted by blonde_cupid
I think someone who has a loving relationship with God* in the here and now will continue to be with God* in the future. ... Anyway, I believe that those of us who are well aware of God* and who deny God* in this life will probably not be with God* in the future. ... Then there are those of us who, for whatever reason, do not come to consciously know God* in this life but who are with God* in righteousness in this life regardless and who will come to know and love God* at the second coming. Some of them will be last to know and the first to be with God* in the future.
From these, I'd say that you do believe in some form of afterlife, perhaps not the form suggested by xtianity, but you have some sort of personal idea of what it should be like.

My questions -

So, perhaps, you believe that your spouse falls into one of the loopholes you mention, and will be with you in the afterlife. Is that the case?

You have a conception of what the afterlife should be like. This conception is different from what the bible says. Who is right? Bible or you? {thnx LB and Xev for bible refs}

How are you convinced that your version of the afterlife is the real thing? Is the bible wrong?

What if the bible is right, and you are wrong? Do you spend eternity separated from your spouse?

GODx,

***You define hell as "abscence of god", and I suppose, heaven to you would be "loving relationship with god." If heaven and hell are both on earth - Are you saying that there is no afterlife?***

It is more of a continuum.

***However, you also say -

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by blonde_cupid
I think someone who has a loving relationship with God* in the here and now will continue to be with God* in the future. ... Anyway, I believe that those of us who are well aware of God* and who deny God* in this life will probably not be with God* in the future. ... Then there are those of us who, for whatever reason, do not come to consciously know God* in this life but who are with God* in righteousness in this life regardless and who will come to know and love God* at the second coming. Some of them will be last to know and the first to be with God* in the future.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From these, I'd say that you do believe in some form of afterlife, perhaps not the form suggested by xtianity, but you have some sort of personal idea of what it should be like.***

It is the form suggested by Jesus Christ.

***My questions -

So, perhaps, you believe that your spouse falls into one of the loopholes you mention, and will be with you in the afterlife. Is that the case?

You have a conception of what the afterlife should be like. This conception is different from what the bible says. Who is right? Bible or you? {thnx LB and Xev for bible refs}

How are you convinced that your version of the afterlife is the real thing? Is the bible wrong?

What if the bible is right, and you are wrong? Do you spend eternity separated from your spouse?***

Your questions are appreciated and I would be more than happy to answer them except for the fact that I reject your premise. An issue of yours has come up which I'd like a little more insight into before we go further.

Since you thank LB and Xev for the Bible references, I must ask... How did you come to form the opinion that my conception of afterlife is different from what Jesus Christ taught?

Also... Based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, what is your understanding of the following issue which LB brought up?

***...if you are not saved through Jesus then you will not be with God. You can only get to the father thru the son?***

Xev,

LIGHTBEING asked:

***quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
doesn't the Bible mention if you are not saved through Jesus then you will not be with God. You can only get to the father thru the son? Isn't this the Book you follow?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------***

And you answered:

***Yeah, it is all over the NT. John 15:6 Matthew 7:13-14, 24:50-51, 25:30, 25:41, 25:46. Mark 16:16***

Were the mention of these passages meant to answer LB's questions in the affirmative? If so... then how?

I think a better quote to focus for this arguement should be this:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

it goes on to say

17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

b-c,

I don't know how you mean when you say you don't take these quotes literally. Only because this is the most literal and one of the most important quotes behind Christianity. I thought that all Christians took these types of quotes literally. Your religious leaders teach to develope a personal relation with Jesus, literally. And they use this passage to do so.

So please explain how you perceive these types of passages?

Originally posted by LIGHTBEING
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

it goes on to say

17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Thnx LB for the NT.

b-c has said that this is in accordance with her beliefs.

When she says "the teachings of JC", one presumes she means stuff from the NT ... unless she has sources of JC's teachings of which we are not currently aware.

++++

b-c,
Your questions are appreciated and I would be more than happy to answer them except for the fact that I reject your premise. An issue of yours has come up which I'd like a little more insight into before we go further. Certianly.

But I have little knowledge of the "teachings of JC", and the post which you asked me to elaborate on, was made by LB, who seems to be more knowledgable than me.

Can you expand on your post and tell me with which premise you have the problem?

---

What is the form of afterlife as "suggested by Jesus Christ".
Is it in full accordance with yours?

Do you have a non-xtian spouse? Or a parent?

Yes, to both. Spouse and both parents are non-Xtian (now).

Do they believe in other religions? Or not at all?

Mom labels herself as a "Catholic/Buddhist/Pagan". Dad and hubby both would probably label themselves as "non-religious, spiritual" if asked.

What sort of relationship do you have with family/spouses who do not share your faith? Is it a good relationship? Very loving?

For the most part. The only family I seem to have trouble with, religious-wise, is a couple uncles on Dad's side that are pretty heavy fundamentalist. One is Southern Baptist, the other is a Jehovah's Witness. Their respective wives and children also follow thier faiths, but are less fundamentalist about it, and I can therefore get along with them better. When religion isn't the topic, however, we all get along surprisingly well for such a large and diverse family. Immediate family and I all get along great, I see my parents and sibling and nephew on a weekly basis.

Of course, since I'm not Xtian myself, that sorta ruins the question - no concerns about hellfire in this household!

Funny how they interpret the creation accounts literally but the really important stuff like salvation - well, that can be metaphorical or figurative. :rolleyes:

Blonde: They elaborate on the concept of salvation....firstoff that one can only reach God through Christ, secondly that there is a strict duality between Christ and hell.

It is pleasent, I am sure, for many Christians to suppose that thier religion allows great non-Christians (Gandhi, Einstein, Paine, Lincoln, Socrates, etc) to be rewarded in a life to come. However, this is contradicted by the Bible.

There are no loopholes. Hence the argument that a non-believing spouse will be with a believing spouse fails, as a believer is saved and a non-believer is damned.

Mark 16:16 is quite clear on this point.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

LIGHTBEING,

***I don't know how you mean when you say you don't take these quotes literally. Only because this is the most literal and one of the most important quotes behind Christianity. I thought that all Christians took these types of quotes literally. Your religious leaders teach to develope a personal relation with Jesus, literally. And they use this passage to do so.***

My religious teacher is Jesus Christ who, when asked directly about what must be done to gain eternal life, responded directly "If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." (See Matthew 19:16-17)

***Originally posted by LIGHTBEING
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

it goes on to say

17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.***

More importantly, it goes on to say:

19 And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed. 21 But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.

It is true that, ultimately, we will all come face-to-face with Jesus Christ and must be judged by him according to our deeds before entering into eternal life (thereby entering through him). However, someone who believes in God* and follows the teachings of Jesus Christ without consciously attributing the path that they have chosen to Jesus Christ will come to understand the source of the truth when they come face-to-face with Jesus Christ. There are many who believe in God* and live in the light that Jesus Christ cast into the world even though they might not consciously be aware of the source of that light. They, too, are being saved through Jesus Christ.

Xev,

***Mark 16:16 is quite clear on this point.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------***

And what does "believeth" mean to you?

'Believeth' would be 'to believe'. I'm sorry, but your explanation contradicts Scripture.

However, since Scripture contradicts Scripture, it is not really a big deal.

GODx,

***But I have little knowledge of the "teachings of JC", and the post which you asked me to elaborate on, was made by LB, who seems to be more knowledgable than me.

Can you expand on your post and tell me with which premise you have the problem?***

Sure. Your premise that my beliefs are contradictory to what Jesus Christ taught as is recorded in the Bible. But now that you tell me that you have little knowledge of the teachings of Jesus Christ, I ask you...

On what did you base such a premise?

Xev,

***'Believeth' would be 'to believe'.***

Believe what?

***I'm sorry, but your explanation contradicts Scripture.***

How so?

b-c,

I know what you are saying and it could be a strong theory. But Christianity does not support this. It almost seems that you are stretching the meaning of these passages for your benefit and your liking. It clearly states in the Bible that if you do not acknowlegde Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, then you will not be saved.

There is no last minute decision, there is no changing your mind on Judgement Day. If that is the case I guess we are all going to Heaven. :D

And how exactly is your husband indirectly following the teaching of Jesus?

Better yet, How exactly do you know that you are learning the teaching of Jesus?

Xev,

In the words of Jesus Christ:

"Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life."

John 5:24

Does that help clear up what is meant by "believe"?

Originally posted by blonde_cupid
My religious teacher is Jesus Christ who, when asked directly about what must be done to gain eternal life, responded directly "If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." (See Matthew 19:16-17) Thank you for your reply, b-c.

From a cusory glance at the posted NTs, it seems that your's is the only one which is directly attributed to JC himself. So, in that sense, there is no contradiction in your belief.

You believe in the above line, because it is a saying of JC. You do not believe as strongly in John 316, etc, because they are not the sayings of JC. And, as you say, JC is your teacher.

When JC sez "keep the commandments", is that a reference to the 10 coms of Moses?

And is "enter into life" an euphemism for "enter into heaven"?

I also echo LB's queries - How do you presume your spouse indirectly follows JC? and How do you suppose that you are correctly interpreting JC?

For instance, is KalvinB correctly interpreting JC? or tony1?
Is LB indirectly following JC? Is Xev? Am I? ;)

====

xev, lb, etc.

b-c seems to be asking us to restrict ourselves to sayings which is directly attributed to JC. The rest of the KJV seems to hold little attraction for her. Excepting the 10 commandments, maybe.

God:
b-c seems to be asking us to restrict ourselves to sayings which is directly attributed to JC. The rest of the KJV seems to hold little attraction for her. Excepting the 10 commandments, maybe.

*Groans*

Fine! But Jesus himself dosen't like the people who don't believe in him (unbelievers, Blonde). You want the reference or can we take that for granted?

Xev,

JC is against more than just the unbelievers. I think somewhere he voiced the opinion that one should abandon one's family and friends in favour of the almighty.

the almighty lord, not the almighty $ ;)

====

b-c,

According to you, one's lifestyle, manner, goodwill, etc is waht determines if one is "living in accordance with the teachings of JC".

That is, if your spouse lives in accordance to the teachings of JC, he "will be with God*".

If the dalai lama lives in accordance with the teachings of JC, he gets the ticket as well.

So, belief in JC is not strictly necessary, but the determining factor is "living in accordance with the teachings of JC*".

In other words, are you saying that acts determine salvation and not faith?

That would mean that you believe as catholics do.

And according to tony1, our supreme xtian, catholics are not xtians.

Are you a christian, b-c?

God:

Yep. Luke 12:51-53 and Luke 14:26

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Of course, it could be argued that this applies only to the Apostles....

Now, as far as works vs. faith goes, Scripture contradicts itself here. Blonde could argue that salvation is through faith AND works, but I am not sure if she can argue that it is through works alone.

P.S: Hey, wadda you mean you are Great Cthulhu? :p

Originally posted by Xev
P.S: Hey, wadda you mean you are Great Cthulhu? :p [/B] How about "great gatsby"? :p
Originally posted by Xev
Blonde could argue that salvation is through faith AND works, but I am not sure if she can argue that it is through works alone.
[/B] However she proceeds, we are waiting .... ;)

It seems that no reply is forthcoming from b-c.

Perhaps she realised that she was facing eternal separation from her spouse .... and decided to devote all her time and energy towards "saving" him... :)

Perhaps she realised that she was facing eternal separation from her spouse .... and decided to devote all her time and energy towards "saving" him...

LOL......poor guy :D