Or should a woman who shares living quarters, who considers herself to be a responsible adult, take responsibility for working and helping to earn a living, whether or not she is having sex with the male of the partnership?

If she chooses to stay home, I think she should (and most would) serve the role as doer of most of the domestic work (including child rearing). Domestic work is no less a chore than working outside the home for pay, and both add value to the partnership. She pulls her weight either way.

How is that "entitlement?"

The primary entitlement women do have, that men do not, is the right to make the choice to stay in the home in the first place. Stay at home husbands do not have the same social acceptance. That's not women's fault's though, as I myself view stay at home husbands as a bit weird, truth be told.

Well, I would say yes, but I think there are more ways to contribute to a household than wage-earning. I mean no innuendo there.
The title is asking whether women are entitled to what, exactly?

Exactly. Feminists want "equal rights" but it still somehow returns to them feeling entitled to special privileges for being female, while the males get the shaft.

Better stay away from them. Hang out with the other guys - they won't rip you off like that.

Better stay away from them. Hang out with the other guys - they won't rip you off like that.

unless they are dicks

Or should a woman who shares living quarters, who considers herself to be a responsible adult, take responsibility for working and helping to earn a living, whether or not she is having sex with the male of the partnership?

Depends on how good she is in bed :D

If your girlfriend doesn't work and it bothers you and you resent it, get a new girlfriend. Easy Peasy.

Exactly. Feminists want "equal rights" but it still somehow returns to them feeling entitled to special privileges for being female, while the males get the shaft.

Those so called special privileges, are being given to her by the man she lives with. Why would she work if she doesn't have to. She's riding the gravy train and the guy lets her. Then he wants to whine about it???
How does that make sense?

This is something that must be negotiated by each individual couple. Some men and women agree that the woman will stay at home, look after the kids, etc. Others agree that the man will do that, while the woman goes out and does paid work. Others agree that both will do paid work and they will put the children in child care. And so on and so on.

As long as the people involved are happy, everything is fine. There's no need to impose a one-size-fits-all rule on people.

Entitlement? If you are just roomates then she should be paying half the rent. It doesn't matter how she gets the money. If she isn't paying anything and this bothers you then tell her to get the money or kick her out.

what if she is the only woman who will have sex with him....not that this is the case....right Metakon??? This is hypothetical, right?

whatever makes you happy...

I just dont see why we can't treat women like property. :shrug:

Or should a woman who shares living quarters, who considers herself to be a responsible adult, take responsibility for working and helping to earn a living, whether or not she is having sex with the male of the partnership?


If you want a working girl then find you a working girl. I personally prefer my wife stay home with my kids so I don't have to pay strangers to take care of them. I do enjoy the fact that she puts in her 40 hours keeping house while I'm spending my 40 bringing home a paycheck. OTOH, maybe you'd prefer a husband...

Keeping house is more than a 40 hrs per week job.

yep it is, even without kids as well as studying it definitly keeps me busy:D

Keeping house is more than a 40 hrs per week job.

Not the way that she does it.

MetaKron if you are having relationship problems then i strongly urge you to see someone, sure your GP could suggest someone

Otherwise if its that much of an issue for you then walk away

Keeping house is more than a 40 hrs per week job.


Excluding cooking? I do most of that....

Originally Posted by Benthur
Keeping house is more than a 40 hrs per week job.


Bullshit, unless you're a REAL neat freak.

so many god blasted [/i] threads about feminism until I feel like cracking up a joint or somethin to put me to rest. James has got to be the uuberest member on this here thread.
And he is is right, at least for the most part.. I guess..
I'd say that, if you are discussing the role of the female who engages in femistic ideas or idealisms or whatever have you then, of course, women do have some such. There is a general and universal rule to the feminists, I have said this same statement in many different ways at least 300 thousand times th rought out all of sciforums :D

So. What is this "entitlement". Or are you guys infact discussing a far less trivial issue than the one I am at the moment boring you with?

Looks up.
It seems to be pretty much this shit.

What shit... lol...

Or should a woman who shares living quarters, who considers herself to be a responsible adult, take responsibility for working and helping to earn a living, whether or not she is having sex with the male of the partnership?

That depends in part on the male, I suppose. For instance, would the male live with a woman who earns a living if he wasn't having sex with her? It also depends on the foundation of the relationship between them. If a man is upset, for instance, because he's finding it difficult to change the terms of the relationship, he needs to deal with the fact that he helped set the terms that he finds so unacceptable.

Feminists want "equal rights" but it still somehow returns to them feeling entitled to special privileges for being female, while the males get the shaft.

Strangely, I only ever hear the argument this describes second hand, from men who seem to have a problem with women and, especially, feminists.

Try this notion on for size:

Once upon a time, I dated a girl who watched Days of Our Lives. She wasn't completely gaga over the soap, so I didn't really care. After all, I didn't have to watch it. I picked up a couple of character names, and that was it. A couple years later, I was dating another woman, and it turns out she watched Days of Our Lives. I saw even more episodes, and started to learn plot lines. A few years after that, I ended up dating a woman, and finding out while we spent a mutual day off from work together that she, too, watched Days of Our Lives. That relationship ended, and, while a woman I had a brief fling with watched the damn show, I was lucky enough to never be around while she was watching it. Yet, strangely, when I met a new woman, with whom I ended up smoking pot and watching many episodes of The Simpsons with, I was shocked to discover that one of her male roommates was a Days of Our Lives addict. And then, after she left that place and moved in with me, I found out she had lied about that point. She, too, recorded Days of Our Lives on a daily basis, so that she could watch the show after work. It blew my mind. It still does in a way. I hate soap operas. I especially hate Days of Our Lives. How the hell did I come to know what was going on with that show from the time I was seventeen until about thirty-two? Somewhere in there, however, after telling the joke enough times, I came to realize that regardless of what I thought of the intellects that enjoy Days of Our Lives and other soap operas, this bizarre phenomenon spoke more of me, and my taste in women.

I'm of the opinion that if you feel shafted by terms of your relationship that you accepted, it's not all about what's wrong with the partner. Making this about "women", or smearing "feminists" with these complaints doesn't help anyone.

Imagine that, still trying to claim that wanting equality is somehow misogynistic.

Why shouldn't women in general feel the same social pressure to have an income that men in geral are pressured to have? Why should work only be an option for a women, while a male's entire value is tied to his ability to produce an income?

Of course your reply with most likely be the typical sexist reply to such a comment regarding your blatant sexism. You will bring up the fact that many women feel the need to refuse to produce any value than that of a sexual value, and instead refuse to be of a financial value, all while claiming that the existance of a vagina exempts them from being of any value other than sexual.

Instead of ever demanding that the woman be held to the same standard as the man, you will just cry that demanding the woman to produce any value other than a sexual one would be 'unfair' to her. Then again, such instances of blatant sexism seem to be fairly common amungst liberals who do their best to fight against equality.

Why should work only be an option for a women, while a male's entire value is tied to his ability to produce an income?

Oh, come now. Even I think that particular standard is stupid. But this is the world men have fought and killed and died for, dude. Seriously, take a look around. Men have been in charge of the culture for a long time. And this is what we've made of it.

The symptom you're referring to is part of a phallocentric malady.

It's hard for me to take your exaggerations seriously:

Of course your reply with most likely be the typical sexist reply to such a comment regarding your blatant sexism. You will bring up the fact that many women feel the need to refuse to produce any value than that of a sexual value, and instead refuse to be of a financial value, all while claiming that the existance of a vagina exempts them from being of any value other than sexual

Ever read Doonesbury? A classic four-framer from the 1970s, when Joanie worked at the daycare:

Slim: Ms. Caucus, we boys have been noticing a big change in the girls lately. They've been acting like boys.

Joanie: Well, dear, I'm not sure you boys are being quite fair. A great lady, Simone de Beauvoir, once said that there are two kinds of people; human beings and women. And when women start acting like human beings, they are accused of trying to be men.

Slim: Yeah ... but ... but ... um ....

Ellie: Simone de Beauvoir's got your number, Slim.

In the meantime, Angrybellsprout, you really ought to stop trying to guess what other people think, or will say. You're so far off the mark you're embarrassing yourself.

I mean—

Instead of ever demanding that the woman be held to the same standard as the man, you will just cry that demanding the woman to produce any value other than a sexual one would be 'unfair' to her.

Where the hell are you getting this stuff? I mean, even Leno can write better jokes than that.

Oh, come now. Even I think that particular standard is stupid. But this is the world men have fought and killed and died for, dude. Seriously, take a look around. Men have been in charge of the culture for a long time. And this is what we've made of it.

The symptom you're referring to is part of a phallocentric malady.


I predicted that you'd respond with sexism, and you responded with sexism instead of actually expecting a woman to produce a value other than sex.

I predicted that you'd respond with sexism, and you responded with sexism instead of actually expecting a woman to produce a value other than sex.

To reiterate: Where the hell are you getting this stuff?

Look, putting the burden of your own fears of inadequacy onto women won't solve a damn thing for anyone. You're going to have to learn this at some point in your life, else you're going to remain so miserable for the duration.

Start making sense. Really.

Bullshit, unless you're a REAL neat freak.

Housework usually involves taking care of children and maintaining the house. I don't know about your kids, but mine didn't turn themselves off after 5:00pm or on weekends. Plus everyone still has to eat so dishes still have to be washed. When I stayed at home my day started before I woke up with the dog wanting to be let out and lasted until after I went to sleep with one of the kids and their cold or they wet the bed or something. My husband rarely volunteered to doo anything except for when I had surgery and couldn't move. (and he still expected me to do stuff...please).

Exactly what does my expectation that a woman have a value greater than being something for me to stick my penis into have to do with 'my own fears of inadequacy'?

Then again, how dare I suggest that there be equality when liberals will just boo hoo that holding women to the same standards as men is unfair to womyn.

Tiassa:

Men have been in charge of the culture for a long time. And this is what we've made of it.


Liberal original sin dogma, for all to see.

Liberal original sin dogma, for all to see.

Ah yes. Whenever you don't like the detail of history, just call it liberal dogma.

That's some bottom-shelf swill you're pushing.

• • •


Exactly what does my expectation that a woman have a value greater than being something for me to stick my penis into have to do with 'my own fears of inadequacy'?

Your disingenuous presentation.

Duh.

Then again, how dare I suggest that there be equality when liberals will just boo hoo that holding women to the same standards as men is unfair to womyn.

"Womyn"?

(chortle!)

That's so cute.

See, your definition of "same standards" is part of what's in question.

You can't expect a liberal to not resort to sexism in any discussion on equality.

Tiassa:

Ah yes. Whenever you don't like the detail of history, just call it liberal dogma.


Even if we ignore your historical inaccuracies, you still clearly don't understand the meaning of 'original sin', despite me explaining it to you in the past.

Even if we ignore your historical inaccuracies, you still clearly don't understand the meaning of 'original sin', despite me explaining it to you in the past.

Origional sin is a term related to Christianity, and we already know that liberals hate religion in general, and especially Christianity specifically. That the only thing that they could ever hate more than Christianity is the concept of equality, especially when that equality is on the basis of sex.

Origional sin is a term related to Christianity, and we already know that liberals hate religion in general, and especially Christianity specifically. That the only thing that they could ever hate more than Christianity is the concept of equality, especially when that equality is on the basis of sex.

He's referring to a concept of his own invention. But I did want to congratulate you. One clause of what you wrote in that post isn't pure fantasy. Original sin is, indeed, related to Christianity.

I do think my advice is sound: if you don't like women, stay away from them. Why aggravate yourself ? There's no law says you have to invite some freeloader into your life.

I do think my advice is sound: if you don't like women, stay away from them. Why aggravate yourself ? There's no law says you have to invite some freeloader into your life.


Just nice to see that you think that all women are freeloaders without a hope of ever having a value associated with them.

I just dont see why we can't treat women like property. :shrug:

you probably do. and if you are shallow enough not to notice what you yourself are missing, let alone the women who spend time with you, certainly a discussion forum is not going to break the habit.

Just nice to see that you think that all women are freeloaders without a hope of ever having a value associated with them.

Well, you seem outraged about something. We can only hope, for your sake, that this is based on your experiences and not just fantasies you have, alone in your apartment. You seem to feel you, as a man, are on the unfair end of things. You also speak harsly about liberals.

Remember liberals always tried to get the laws to be fairer, for example, between the races. They also listened to the stories of people, like for example African Americans, who felt marginalized. Conservatives and reactionaries viewed these people as special interest group whiners who should pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.

Well, you are whining now.
What are you going to do to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps in a society you think unfairly favors women?
I see several men in positions of power both in government and in the private sector.
I see some men who have managed to find spouses who have jobs, or are happy homemakers, who do not slap their husbands when they are called bitches, in fact who do none of the things you whine about. So, given conservative logic, given that there are 'success stories' everyone else should shut up in that discriminated category or they are whiners. Knuckle down and get the life you want.

Are you going to do this?
Or will we be reading for years how unfair it is to live in this society because you are a man?

I would rather DIE than be one of those stay-at-home wives or girlfriends. Seriously, no hyperbole, I would. I don't ever plan on sitting at home doing the cleaning and washing up while my boyfriend/husband earns a living. I'd rather eat manure than be dependent like that. When I'm an adult I want to be exactly that, not some kind of childlike appendage who depends on a male to feed her.

I would rather DIE than be one of those stay-at-home wives or girlfriends. Seriously, no hyperbole, I would. I don't ever plan on sitting at home doing the cleaning and washing up while my boyfriend/husband earns a living. I'd rather eat manure than be dependent like that. When I'm an adult I want to be exactly that, not some kind of childlike appendage who depends on a male to feed her.

YES!!! :bravo:
I keep telling my daughter she can be anything she wants to be. But if she decides she wants to be a housewife, I think I'm gonna die a little bit inside. That never even occured to me.

Well, you seem outraged about something. We can only hope, for your sake, that this is based on your experiences and not just fantasies you have, alone in your apartment. ....

:yay::thumbsup: Yeah, I haven't been able to get an example out of him yet.

There is nothing wrong with a woman staying home taking care of the kids after they are born. If more women or (men) stayed home with their kids instead of dumping them off in a daycare center as soon at their maternity stay was over, I doubt there would be so many BRATS running around. I am not one for deciding to have a bunch of babies them dumping them off for someone else to raise for the majority of the day. I am for mothers staying home with the little ones until they are off to school ( if that is possible)
It's a fulltime job taking care of little ones and keeping the house in order. I don't think they are DEPENDING on the MALE to feed them. I think it is a decision that a couple makes that is best for their family.

YES!!! :bravo:
I keep telling my daughter she can be anything she wants to be. But if she decides she wants to be a housewife, I think I'm gonna die a little bit inside. That never even occured to me.

:D Yeah, I know how you mean, when I was 12 I had a friend who said she wanted to marry a rock star. I could never understand that, how could anyone just want to be someone's girlfriend or someone's wife and not have a job of their own?

There is nothing wrong with a woman staying home taking care of the kids after they are born. If more women or (men) stayed home with their kids instead of dumping them off in a daycare center as soon at their maternity stay was over, I doubt there would be so many BRATS running around. I am not one for deciding to have a bunch of babies them dumping them off for someone else to raise for the majority of the day. I am for mothers staying home with the little ones until they are off to school ( if that is possible)
It's a fulltime job taking care of little ones and keeping the house in order. I don't think they are DEPENDING on the MALE to feed them. I think it is a decision that a couple makes that is best for their family.

I really don't think it's as simple as 'daycare when young = vandal in later life'.

Why mothers? Why not fathers? Could they not just flip a coin? (no, that was not serious, but why the automatic suggestion that it should be the mother?)

Maybe it's an important fulltime job, I think I'd probably end up flipping out and murdering someone though.

:
I really don't think it's as simple as 'daycare when young = vandal in later life'.

Why mothers? Why not fathers? Could they not just flip a coin? (no, that was not serious, but why the automatic suggestion that it should be the mother?)

Maybe it's an important fulltime job, I think I'd probably end up flipping out and murdering someone though.

I said in brackets (or men father)

No it isn't that cut and dry, but alot of parents look for price when it comes to daycare and not quality. I know alot of parents that left kids in daycares and were pretty much neglected all day. Personally I rather me or my partner be the main influence in their lives from the time they are newborns till they start kindergarten. I know it's not possible for everyone but some ppl just do not WANT to stay home with them. I say if that is the case why have them in the first place? I mean if you have an average paying job, and you have to pay for daycare are you coming out much further ahead? Are you doing the best for you kids, leaving them with strangers all day. Nobody is going to take care of your kids as well as you would. They don't love or have there best interests at heart. For most it's just get through the day with them and get a paycheck. If you have the option to stay home but decide not to do so because it's boring or you would go nuts, then don't have any kids, and have a big career.

I don't think they are DEPENDING on the MALE to feed them. I think it is a decision that a couple makes that is best for their family.


In our case it was the opposite. I expected my wife to depend on me to feed her and the kids and I expected her to care for our kids and our house. Before me she was a worker and I turned her into the housewife and mother that I wanted. Call me a chauvinist. IMO, a mother's place is at home.

....I know it's not possible for everyone but some ppl just do not WANT to stay home with them. I say if that is the case why have them in the first place? I mean if you have an average paying job, and you have to pay for daycare are you coming out much further ahead? Are you doing the best for you kids, leaving them with strangers all day. .....

I'm one of those people that doesn't want to stay home. I get a lot of satisfaction from work. I like working. Do you tell men "If you aren't going to stay home with them, why did you bother having them?" I got this kind of grief from my ex-husband's family. All the women in his family quit working as soon as the first baby arrived. That was a foreign concept in my family. I wasn't raised like that.

My kids stay with strangers at school all day, so I don't see a difference with them going to daycare/preschool. :shrug: I think it makes them well adjusted and not clingy. It helps with their independence.

My kids stay with strangers at school all day, so I don't see a difference with them going to daycare/preschool.


There may not be much difference "most" of the time but there are times we daycare/preschool aged kids need the care and attention to detail they receive from someone that actually loves them....

If your daycare looks at your kid as a dollar amount, then you need to find another daycare. I did. And not for one second do I think they don't care about my kids. And yes, I did have to suck it up and send her to a church daycare to get that kind of caring.

I'm one of those people that doesn't want to stay home. I get a lot of satisfaction from work. I like working. Do you tell men "If you aren't going to stay home with them, why did you bother having them?" I got this kind of grief from my ex-husband's family. All the women in his family quit working as soon as the first baby arrived. That was a foreign concept in my family. I wasn't raised like that.

My kids stay with strangers at school all day, so I don't see a difference with them going to daycare/preschool. :shrug: I think it makes them well adjusted and not clingy. It helps with their independence.

Good for you. I hate how it is seen as perfectly normal for a man to have both a career and a family, but when a woman wants that they're seen as wanting something for nothing...what's that horrible annoying phrase...'having it all.'

There may not be much difference "most" of the time but there are times we daycare/preschool aged kids need the care and attention to detail they receive from someone that actually loves them....

I agree. When they are at school with strangers they are at an age where they can tell you exactly what is going on at school. They can tell you if they were picked on or whatever. When they are babies or too young to talk they can't tell you if they were put in a room all day to cry! That is what I am talking about. I know somebody that found out that their child was basically left alone other then to eat. She did a unexpected visit to find her son laying in a very full diaper crying. The daycare provider prob just changed him shortly before the mother would pick him up each day.

My plan before having kids, discussed with my husband was that I would stay home while they were very young. Sure If I had made as much money as he did at the time he could have stayed home. But why would I go to work for 10.00 an hour when he was making 25.00......

I mean typically where I live daycare for a baby for 8+ hours is $25-40 a day. That isn't even min wage. I really don't think they are going way and beyond to take care of your children, changing diapers, crying, and stimulating them for that kind of money. There is no doubt in my mind that taking care of your own children when they are babies and toddlers is the best thing for them. I have heard too many horror stories of daycares or independant providers, to even want to take the chance. Not if I had the CHOICE to stay home with them or going to work to get out of the house. There is always time to get back to work when they start school.

:yay::thumbsup: Yeah, I haven't been able to get an example out of him yet.

I don't know if it the case with this person, but I think a lot of men - on this issue - and people in general - resent when society changes and they can't act the abusive way people used to get to.

When they whine, they tend not to show weakness, but simply anger. This keeps them from noticing that they are
1) whining
2) acting just like all the people they once told how to live their lives and to stop blaming their problems on society.

I know somebody that found out that their child was basically left alone other then to eat. She did a unexpected visit to find her son laying in a very full diaper crying. The daycare provider prob just changed him shortly before the mother would pick him up each day.


I know a young lady that worked at one of these places for a couple of weeks and quit because they were only allowed to change the diapers twice a day, once at 10 and once at 2. All the kids that crapped shortly after had to wear it until the next diaper change or pick up.

I know a young lady that worked at one of these places for a couple of weeks and quit because they were only allowed to change the diapers twice a day, once at 10 and once at 2. All the kids that crapped shortly after had to wear it until the next diaper change or pick up.

Jesus... that's maltreatment :(

Jesus... that's maltreatment :(

And the problem is it not uncommon. Like I said before these ppl work for less then Min. wage in most cases, at least home daycare providers do. Haven't you ever seen the hidden cameras ppl place in their own homes even to watch what goes on all day with nannies, it's horrible. One I watched was slapping the kid only 5 min. after the mother left, because he wasn't eating fast enough in his high chair. Then she took him out and threw him quite hard into a sofa type chair, turned the TV on and told him to sit there and watch TV. The whole time he was crying and they were bleeping out what he was yelling at him :mad: then she started hitting him again. Then she talked on the phone most of the day, while he sat by himself.
The parents after watching this were so upset and crying that this had been going on. Babies, toddlers can't speak for themselves it's when they can be treated poorly or abused without being able to defend themselves. I know I could get frustrated and stressed out with my own kids, can you imagine a stranger with your kids :bugeye:

Why would you let strangers raise them in the most important developemental yrs, if you have the option to do it yourself. Yes you are letting them raise your kid if you are dropping them off at 7am and picking them up at 6 pm. Then you go home and shortly after that they go to bed to repeat the whole thing again.

And the problem is it not uncommon. Like I said before these ppl work for less then Min. wage in most cases, at least home daycare providers do. Haven't you ever seen the hidden cameras ppl place in their own homes even to watch what goes on all day with nannies, it's horrible. One I watched was slapping the kid only 5 min. after the mother left, because he wasn't eating fast enough in his high chair. Then she took him out and threw him quite hard into a sofa type chair, turned the TV on and told him to sit there and watch TV. The whole time he was crying and they were bleeping out what he was yelling at him :mad: then she started hitting him again. Then she talked on the phone most of the day, while he sat by himself.
The parents after watching this were so upset and crying that this had been going on. Babies, toddlers can't speak for themselves it's when they can be treated poorly or abused without being able to defend themselves. I know I could get frustrated and stressed out with my own kids, can you imagine a stranger with your kids :bugeye:

Yes, horrible things happen.. I've got the feeling that half of those daycare providers are not fit for their job..

And some children would be better off in childcare. As many horror stories there are about daycare, there are about parents. I bet Andrea Yates would have loved to have sent her kids to daycare. But she had people (husband included) telling her that she needed to stay home with her kids. Look at the results.

And some children would be better off in childcare. As many horror stories there are about daycare, there are about parents. I bet Andrea Yates would have loved to have sent her kids to daycare. But she had people (husband included) telling her that she needed to stay home with her kids. Look at the results.


Sure, there are exceptions but they seem to be the few...

exceptions to what? Bad daycare or bad parents?

And some children would be better off in childcare. As many horror stories there are about daycare, there are about parents. I bet Andrea Yates would have loved to have sent her kids to daycare. But she had people (husband included) telling her that she needed to stay home with her kids. Look at the results.

Day care would then be ON TOP of the parents being horrible parents. The kids spend time at both places.

Sure, there are exceptions but they seem to be the few...

Yeah.........

You would have to see yourself as a pretty bad parent to think that a daycare would love and take care of your child better then you.
There are bad parents out there to, who aren't fit to raise any kids at all. I am not talking about them though. I am talking about making the CHOICE of working, when you don't NEED to financially. Why would you do that, trust strangers with your innocent baby when you don't have to?

Yeah.........

You would have to see yourself as a pretty bad parent to think that a daycare would love and take care of your child better then you.

better than? How about as good as?

Just because its not what you do, doesn't mean its bad parenting if others do it differently.

have you ever swatted your kid? I think its assault and I don't do it. That doesn't mean I love my kids more than you love yours.

welcome back :mad: You haven't missed a beat

I am just stating my personal opinion on the matter. You get mad because someone doesn't agree with you, that's your problem... not mine. I am not the only one who feels this way, you mad at them too?

exceptions to what? Bad daycare or bad parents?

Bad parents are the exception to most parents. Some kids would admittedly be better off in daycare. Those kids would also be better off with new parents....

If you are financially secure and decide to have children (it's planned) What is the reasoning behind not staying home (either parent) to raise your baby, toddler?
Why dump them somewhere all day with strangers, for you to see them for a few hours a day? Why did you have them in the first place then, if you don't want to be with them?

Bad parents are the exception to most parents. Some kids would admittedly be better off in daycare. Those kids would also be better off with new parents....

and bad daycares are the exception as well. Its easier to close a bad daycare down than it is to remove a child from bad parents. I bet more children die at the hands of their parents than daycare.

Its a personal decision. If you want to work, fine. If you don't, fine. Neither option makes you a bad parent.
If it did, there are a HELL of a lot of bad fathers out there.

If you are financially secure and decide to have children (it's planned) What is the reasoning behind not staying home (either parent) to raise your baby, toddler?
Why dump them somewhere all day with strangers, for you to see them for a few hours a day? Why did you have them in the first place then, if you don't want to be with them?

I'll ask my husband. He's obviously horrible. He didn't even stay home after they were born like I did.

It only goes for the mums.. :p

I would rather DIE than be one of those stay-at-home wives or girlfriends. Seriously, no hyperbole, I would. I don't ever plan on sitting at home doing the cleaning and washing up while my boyfriend/husband earns a living. I'd rather eat manure than be dependent like that. When I'm an adult I want to be exactly that, not some kind of childlike appendage who depends on a male to feed her.


Oh I could introduce you to a few girls who, while refusing to get jobs, aren't exactly 'stay-at-home'. In fact, I know the one didn't really even keep the house clean or any of the other stuff like that. It was mostly lay around the house watching the telly all day, then go out to the clubs at night. The best part was that she could go out on a fairly regular basis, but her bf/husband (later the idiot married her) was accused of cheating on her anytime he left the house to spend time with any of his friends.

Then of course she went out to the clubs with her cousin who refused to get a job as well. Though this one was even more of a winner. While her husband was in Iraq, she refused to pay any of the bills, I mean they are his bills right? Instead she just took all his money out of the bank, and blew it between her new boyfriend and going out to the clubs to screw other random guys from time to time.

It only goes for the mums.. :p

well of course it does, lol :rolleyes:
Do you men judge other men like some women obviously judge other mothers?
Do you think a guy is a bad dad if he goes to work?

Having kids is a bit of a sacrifice. Someone obviously still needs to work and bring in the money. In most cases it just happens to be the husband makes more money (not in all cases) Women have maternal instincts ( most) and can take care of babies better.

If you want to dump them with strangers and work, when you don't have to....did you have them just because you could? for your own ego? what?

Oh I could introduce you to a few girls who, while refusing to get jobs, aren't exactly 'stay-at-home'. In fact, I know the one didn't really even keep the house clean or any of the other stuff like that. It was mostly lay around the house watching the telly all day, then go out to the clubs at night. The best part was that she could go out on a fairly regular basis, but her bf/husband (later the idiot married her) was accused of cheating on her anytime he left the house to spend time with any of his friends.

Then of course she went out to the clubs with her cousin who refused to get a job as well. Though this one was even more of a winner. While her husband was in Iraq, she refused to pay any of the bills, I mean they are his bills right? Instead she just took all his money out of the bank, and blew it between her new boyfriend and going out to the clubs to screw other random guys from time to time.

Holy Crap! Is her name Melissa? I think you know my ex sister-in-law. :eek:
and the key word in your whole post was 'idiot'

well of course it does, lol :rolleyes:
Do you men judge other men like some women obviously judge other mothers?
Do you think a guy is a bad dad if he goes to work?

:confused:
I think the women need to stay home with the kids and the men should work..
Or the other way around of course..

and Enmos, that's an opinion I can understand. :)
Telling women they are bad parents if they don't is not. Its judgemental.

and Enmos, that's an opinion I can understand. :)
Telling women they are bad parents if they don't is not. Its judgemental.

I think it's dumb to take kids if you are too busy to raise them yourself though..

There is nothing wrong with a woman staying home taking care of the kids after they are born. If more women or (men) stayed home with their kids instead of dumping them off in a daycare center as soon at their maternity stay was over, I doubt there would be so many BRATS running around. I am not one for deciding to have a bunch of babies them dumping them off for someone else to raise for the majority of the day. I am for mothers staying home with the little ones until they are off to school ( if that is possible)
It's a fulltime job taking care of little ones and keeping the house in order. I don't think they are DEPENDING on the MALE to feed them. I think it is a decision that a couple makes that is best for their family.

There are a few problems with your post.

First of all, you are assuming that the reason they are staying home is on the basis of having very young children in the house, and not on the basis of 'oh but I have a vagina'. The latter has actually been the main theme of the thread.

Next, you are assuming that even if children are present, then a parent should quit their job entirely. It is entirely possible to have a work schedule which keeps a parent either in the house all the time, or the majority of the time, even if this requires one parent switching over to a part time job.

Finally, you are assuming that the only alternative to a parent quitting their job entirely for years at a time is a large daycare center. I'd want my kids to spend a couple hours outside of the house a day, which isn't the same as spending all day every day out of the house. I'd hopefully I'd have a neighbor or relative that lived close by, and was either retired or worked at home. This way the children could have more influences on them than simply limiting them to just me and the wife.

:D Yeah, I know how you mean, when I was 12 I had a friend who said she wanted to marry a rock star. I could never understand that, how could anyone just want to be someone's girlfriend or someone's wife and not have a job of their own?

I've always wanted to teach, and because I believed the propaganda when I was younger, I always stated that it was one of my objectives to marry a rich woman of some sort. Now that I'm older, and realize that the teachers in my area do make quite a bit of money, this concept seems silly to me.

I don't know if it the case with this person, but I think a lot of men - on this issue - and people in general - resent when society changes and they can't act the abusive way people used to get to.

When they whine, they tend not to show weakness, but simply anger. This keeps them from noticing that they are
1) whining
2) acting just like all the people they once told how to live their lives and to stop blaming their problems on society.


Ah poor baby is scared of the concept of equality.

I think it's dumb to take kids if you are too busy to raise them yourself though..

I'm not too busy. :confused: I just choose to have a job. I choose to be around adults part of my day. I choose NOT to be a stay at home mom, just like my husband chooses NOT to be a stay at home dad.

Oh I could introduce you to a few girls who, while refusing to get jobs, aren't exactly 'stay-at-home'. In fact, I know the one didn't really even keep the house clean or any of the other stuff like that. It was mostly lay around the house watching the telly all day, then go out to the clubs at night. The best part was that she could go out on a fairly regular basis, but her bf/husband (later the idiot married her) was accused of cheating on her anytime he left the house to spend time with any of his friends.

Then of course she went out to the clubs with her cousin who refused to get a job as well. Though this one was even more of a winner. While her husband was in Iraq, she refused to pay any of the bills, I mean they are his bills right? Instead she just took all his money out of the bank, and blew it between her new boyfriend and going out to the clubs to screw other random guys from time to time.

I hate women who are like that. I fucking hate them. No dignity whatsoever and they give the rest of us a bad name.

I hate men who have no problem with it. LOL he's not a man, he's a pet.

Only took my idiot friend 4 years to admit that girl was a piece of shit, then again he met her when she was 16 and he was 20, and the only reason why they are getting a divorce is because she tricked him into moveing up to Iowa so that she could muff dive the hell out of this girl she met online. So after 4 years of her calling him a cheater, she moved out of his house and into her girlfriend's house.

Don't worry, there are plenty of girls who feel entitled to not have a job on the basis of 'oh but I have a vagina'. In fact, I met plenty of girls who were in university for no reason other than to get married so they could stay home all day.

Indeed. Although it's more like the relationship between a parasite and its host.

In fact, I met plenty of girls who were in university for no reason other than to get married so they could stay home all day.

:puke::puke::puke:

....Don't worry, there are plenty of girls who feel entitled to not have a job on the basis of 'oh but I have a vagina'.... .

That's it? :shrug: A vagina, so she doesn't have to work? Are you sure it isn't because people treat you the way you let them treat you.

The girl I'm working on right now and I got into an argument one afternoon because I told her that after kids she should get a part time job until they get into school, but other than that she is a strong believer in women getting jobs.

Last spring I had the feminist for a professor and she was pretty lol. One day she asked me if I'd feel emasculated if my wife were to get a job, and I just laughed at her and told her that if she didn't have a job, then she'd be out on the curb. Then she asked me if I'd feel emasculted if my wife were to make more money than me, and I was like well the carrer that I have lined up for myself is going to provide me a pretty significant amount of money, but if she can manage to make even more money than I do, then that is simply adding to the wealth of the estate.

Ah poor baby is scared of the concept of equality.

You're hallucinating my opinions and feelings. But nice avoidance.

I notice you said nothing about my earlier post:
Well, you seem outraged about something. We can only hope, for your sake, that this is based on your experiences and not just fantasies you have, alone in your apartment. You seem to feel you, as a man, are on the unfair end of things. You also speak harsly about liberals.

Remember liberals always tried to get the laws to be fairer, for example, between the races. They also listened to the stories of people, like for example African Americans, who felt marginalized. Conservatives and reactionaries viewed these people as special interest group whiners who should pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.

Well, you are whining now.
What are you going to do to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps in a society you think unfairly favors women?
I see several men in positions of power both in government and in the private sector.
I see some men who have managed to find spouses who have jobs, or are happy homemakers, who do not slap their husbands when they are called bitches, in fact who do none of the things you whine about. So, given conservative logic, given that there are 'success stories' everyone else should shut up in that discriminated category or they are whiners. Knuckle down and get the life you want.

Are you going to do this?
Or will we be reading for years how unfair it is to live in this society because you are a man?

I speak of equality, and you just go baaawwww because you are a sexist.

Well, an insult and a label is hardly a response or argument, but there's nothing I can do about your limitations.

I am sorry you feel so victimized as a man in this society. I hope you find the personal strength to succeed anyway.

Mod Hat — Closure

This topic is done. My thanks to those who tried to make the best of a difficult situation.

As with many contentious issues, discussion of the general themes is certainly welcome, as this is a forum for ethical and moral comparisons. However, as this topic has shown, the discussion becomes pretty one-sided when it is disingenuously established. Neither the EM&J forum nor Sciforums in general are intended as a platform for misogyny, racism, or other forms of hatred.

Provocative topics are generally welcome. Intentional provocation through inflammatory posting is not. Those of you who already understand that, please know we appreciate your efforts to present rational points of argument in the face of such spiteful balbutive. Those who find such standards too demanding should not try to make their dissatisfaction a problem for their neighbors. You have specific recourse, and are welcome to use it.