Im working on a small text in school about the possibility of if a MODERN society would make it without no money?

I know that these goals must have been achived in order to remove the money:

1. The society can not be dependent of another one.
2. The society has reached a level of technology that makes every citizen's living standard high enough for them to survive without working.

What else has to have been achieved? And what problems do a society without money meet? I know that in STAR TREK there is no money, how have they done that? Please help me with your oppinions! They mean alot!

I will offer my services for the advancement of science and any of you who want to see what it is like to live without money....please email me and I will forward you my address for your bank account.

That was not the answer I was looking for...

Jez this question is more philosophical than anything. Try looking into whether or not the very idea contradicts human nature.

Years ago when I was interested in the idea of Anarchy, I came across mention of a small town somwhere around the edge of France or Spain. They dumepd formal government and currency, and bartered for everything, and thigns were worked out by discussion and concesus. This was around 90 years ago I think. Things were going along quite well, but then the Spanish government (I think it was them) bombed the crap out the place and levelled it.

This is actually a rather big problem you've raised. A token economy (any economic system in which otherwise worthless tokens are given value equivalent to goods and services) is necessary in highly urbanised cultures. If you have densely populated cities full of people living from imported refridgerated food and existing as pure consumers while they slave away in offices all day, then those people need the token eceonomy (money) to survive. Unless you'd like them to be given free food, which means those poor farmers won't be able to maintain their farms, and the trains and ships and trucks carrying the food will quickly run out of fuel without that money.

Is there a solution? Possibly. I'm told we live in the Information Age. I find it hard to keep track of all these Ages and such. But the point is, people need not any longer work in such tightly packed bunches in cities. Every office job in the world can now be done remotely. Well-paid executives could do their job from a remote farm in the wilds somewhere. The only thing required is further implementation of existing technologies, which of course means the companies would have to spend heaps of money.

If modern technology was implemented as well as it could be, the only regions of dense population required would be those around factories and such where many people must work closely.

All said and done, it seems to me that a token economy is more and more necessary the more densely paked we humans are. Spread us out a bit, and it becomes less necessary. Spreading us out more can be accomplished through better implementation of technology.

Just a few ideas which I haven't fully formed yet, but I hope it gives you something to consider.

What about trade in stead of money? Don't know if it is still possible now-a-days. In earlier days it was a good solution, way back when there was no money invented yet.

Anyway, I am willing to give my abilities to work for free. Money is the root of all evil. Humans kill for it. Money is a necessarry evil. I am for trading.

No more pressure of the marketplace...!

What about trade in stead of money?

How are you supposed to compare things like a chicken and an idea?

Anyways, trade itself is not devoid of currency. Rather, one of the traded goods becomes a currency (or measurement) for the other. It's the same principle except money is a generalized form of currency.

For example, if I give you twenty chickens (or twenty virgins) for the life of your first-born son, then chickens have become the currency. I'm presuming you're not going to give him to me for nothing.

We'd need to devalue everything (including ideas) in order to be rid of money, in all its forms. This would essentially make us nihilists, and for some reason that's socially unacceptable (by definition, I think).

Anyway, I am willing to give my abilities to work for free. Money is the root of all evil. Humans kill for it. Money is a necessarry evil. I am for trading.

No, humans are the root of all evil. Money is a human artifact and as such we are the root of whatever ethical consequences result. Or, if you believe in God, then you back things up a step and say that humans are a Godly artifact and consequently God is the root of all evil.

Everyone has unique talents. Some can do things easily that are a real task for others. In that line of thought there are also those who have the neccessary tools and equipment to do a better job. Now you can go and do the job with the same material and make it look worse than someone with an appitude for such. You can trade to get it done or pay to get it done. Either way be it barter or be it money you trade something of value to someone else for what they have of value. Money has the property of circumventing three and four way trades. Pick your evil....

Oh you everlasting humans with your everlasting complaints! Nothing is good is it? I know money is a human artifact, it shouldn't be invented anyway. I get so sick of you people. Why can't you trade and keep the peace, put your thinking, argueable mind on hold and care!

Always you have something to nag about. And the worst thing of all is that goddamn money of yours.

A necessarry evil!! And I stay with it.

No dreamers allowed! This human race has civilized itself! At what 'price'...? :rolleyes:

Why do you have to compare things at equal value? Some have chickens, others have clothes they can make. For instance. What makes you the one to tell what is of more value? The chickens or the clothes? Because you can eat the chickens? You need to stay warm too. And there is not always a fire-place in the neighbourhood...

(I quit with it already, no sense in this discussion. Discussion? Arguement...:confused: )

Oh you everlasting humans with your everlasting complaints!

LOL! Brilliant, Banshee. :)

What makes you the one to tell what is of more value? The chickens or the clothes? Because you can eat the chickens?

Well, that's precisely the issue now isn't it. How *can* you rank objects if they're of an inherently different nature. Clearly you need some tertiary measurement value (money) and some reasonable (not perfect) heuristic to assign a value (the market, supply & demand).

I'd like to know how it'd be done in your system, though. Sure, nothing would make me happier than giving a chicken to everyone who wants one, but if I've only got one chicken left and a hundred hungry villagers, I've got a problem on my hands.


And what about 'social' currency (good deeds and the like). Is that also 'evil'??

No, that is just what I mean! I am willing to give myself for free to work out a plan to do without money. You can use me freely to do whatever I can do. As far as my abilities go. I don't need the fucking money, I hate the whole system!

Is it so good in the world now-a-days? There is a lot of poverty and a lot of richdom among humans (in money), no equality there. No, the money gets used for silly inventions like space flights in stead of helping out the poor and starving humans. People are greedy, they want always more.

"No more turning away from the weak and the weary
Is it only a Dream that there'll be no more turning away?"

If there is only one chicken, well, then eat something different. Like vegetables and fruit which is available for free in Nature, assuming we don't have destroyed everything. Crops and corn you can grow. And Share!, learn to share what you have. Work together as one. Everyone has abiliries to work with. So Share! Don't compare! Be equal!

And then we arrive at the point where some human always start to fight or gets sneaky. There I have to look for a solution, guess that's human nature.

You know what, get everybody used to use some Pleasure Herb in their daily menu and there'll be no more fighting, hopefully no more sneaks too...

I think you should start by studying history of money. Why money become acceptable media for everyone to trade. Why ancient people can live without money. etc.

...But perhaps you did. So...


*by Jez* The society has reached a level of technology that makes every citizen's living standard high enough for them to survive without working.

Most people never satisfied for any high standard of living. It's seems there is no limit for human standard. Only for survive is not enough. You give a man a mountain of gold, he still want another mountain of gold. Human nature of passion is different than animal. Animal will satisfied with full stomach, safe shelter, and breed.
Human never satisfied. That's why trade occurs. To fullfill never ending desires. Money developed to make trade easier and more acceptable to broad society.
Money may be vanished if there is more advanced way to trade.

Banshee, you ask how we can put a value on things (like valueing chickens over clothing, for instance).

How about if you work for 12 hours to make a shirt. And someone works 1 hour to make a pair of socks. Are you willing to trade one shirt straight up for one pair of socks? Are you willing to let the sock maker get more commodities than you? Are you willing to work harder than the sock maker to get the same amount of things?

Most people are not.

Most people wish to be rewarded equally for their work.

If we could all just enjoy being equals and not demand fairness in society, it would be great. I for one, couldn't stand that. I know for a fact that I would not work my hardest if I knew that no matter how hard I worked I would get the same result. You and some others may be content in knowing that your fellow man would benefit from your work, but I don't see how this is a fair or just society. Why should someone who doesn't work at all get the same as someone who works hard?

And I have to agree, man is the root of all evil. Money is just one of the many ways to bring about evil. Look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict going on right now, is that about money at it's core?

Originally posted by Tyler
Look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict going on right now, is that about money at it's core?No.
Please explain why you think this is so.

Peace.

No I don't think it is, that's the point. Banshee said money is the root of all evil. I just wanted to point out one small example on how that statement is wrong.

Ahhhh... different context, got it. Sorry to butt in. :)

Peace.

Money is indeed an odd invention of mankind. As many of you have mentioned it is necessary to be able to create a fair system for trade. For instance:

a goat costs 5 coins
a bag of grain 3 coins
six eggs 1 coin.

I buy a goat either for 5 coins, or 1 bag of grain and 12 eggs, or 2 bags of grain and expect 6 eggs in change.

This is all a very odd system, as from time to time you might have famines or feasts that increase the expense of the goat, eggs or grain.

So man started bartering with it's first coinage system, rocks and shells. (Even clay shapes that had markings to signify the amount) It was to make things easier, and fairer.

I could continue with the history lesson of Roman and Greek coins, and how provinces produced there own, but there is little point.

What I can say is that now adays are evolved monetary system tends to work on a principle of "Stabilisation", where only so much capital is printed to keep the economy high and stop it from sinking. It's been seen in recent years amoung poorer countries, or countries that didn't properly finacially manage themselves that there whole economy has been forced into bankrupt states.

This is usually caused by someone forcing the currency to be OVERPRINTED.

Of course there are many other reasons why economies have to balance, for instance if I was to produce something to sell to the world market at too high a price, no one would buy it and the countries economy would suffer.

To stop it suffering a balance is forged by the banks through money lending (APR) and pulling upon financial reserves it rights itself. (Of course the economy is either made far weaker, or too strong.

As much as people suggest that money is the problem, it's not, the problem is with the people that have the greed to aquire it. To aquire amounts that far outway the justification that they need it.

Tyler, I've stated in several threads: Religion and Money are the Root of all Evil! Guess you have to check out some older threads for that. You can use the search engine for older archives here at the Forums for that. good Luck!

I see you are a nice, going along with the herd, consumer of this consumption society. With people like you, we won't get anywhere no. It's the change of attitude, don't you see? I can't care less how many hours someone have to spend to make one sock or one shirt. I'll do it myself if you want to and give it to you for free.

Then there's at least one person who is willing to Share! Luckily I am not the only one. Perhaps the only one in this thread, not the only one living on Earth...

Originally posted by Stryderunknown
*As much as people suggest that money is the problem, it's not, the problem is with the people that have the greed to aquire it. To aquire amounts that far outway the justification that they need it.*

Yep...!

Money exists because we realize there are limits in these world. No body can own everything. So money is the best way to trade. Money can partially gone when we discover a unlimited energy source.

Banshee: Consider it a fault if you wish, I can certainly see how you would, but I demand some level of fairness in society. I can not live with myself knowing that people who work far less or are much worse at their job deserve the same as everyone else.

How is this fair? How is this just?

Unlike you I do not see every baby as being born into the world deserving of the same as everyone else. I believe in this world, things are earned. Things are earned through hard work and perceveerance.

ismu: I think that the thing you wrote about the golden mountain is very smart... are we raised to desire more and more or is this something we were born with? I dont know about others but I can say that I personally don't have this need for richnes... Im happy as I am, as long as I have nature and someone to talk to... but If someone gives me a computer and a big screen tv, I wont hesitate to use them...

Originally posted by Tyler
*Unlike you I do not see every baby as being born into the world deserving of the same as everyone else. I believe in this world, things are earned. Things are earned through hard work and perceveerance.*

Yes, in this civilization. In this world, this society! I didn't mean to be rude to you. It's just that this society has grown in what it is now-a-days. I think it's sad.

Maybe it's better to go off the thread. Religion and Money, and I are allergic to eachother. (necessarry evil, you need to use Money)

I believe in an equal society/civilization or whatever you want to call it. In which everybody gets the same chance. Oh I get a headache from it. I quit.

My apologies to you Tyler...

No apologies needed, simply explinations.

I believe that you earn things. I believe that one who works harder than another, deserves more than the other. I believe that if you work for 100 hours in a week and I work 10 hours in the week, you deserve more than I. Perhaps this doesn't lead to a more 'sharing' society, but it leads to competition, which I both enjoy and desire. And I believe cometitive natures are what cause the greatest advancements in our society. If you eliminate competitive nature, what need have we to advance?

I personally would get very, very bored with a society where I could do nothing all day and still get the same as if I worked hard all day.

Why is it sad banshee? Why is it sad that I believe in a society based on eash getting what he EARNS not the same as everyone else?

Personally, I would rather kill myself than live in your society. There is no greatness to reach for if you make everyone equal.

If you believe in everyone getting an equal chance, that's great. But that in no way means you have to leave everyone to be equal for their entire lives. What do you mean by everyone having the same chance? If everyone ALWAYS gets the same commodities throughout their entire lives, what is there to aim for?

More importantly I can't get my head around your whole idea of my just society being 'sad'.

Tyler - If you work 100 hours you deserve more than someone who works 1 hour.

Banshee - If you work 10000000 hours you deserve the same as someone who works 0 hours.

I like my logic.

If you eliminate competitive nature, what need have we to advance?

If you could eliminate competitive nature! I doubt that you could.

Think about the way we evolved. Look at the great apes. They fight over territory and domination of thier groups. Throughout history, humans have fought each other to gain territory and to dominate nations....I can think of no society in which conflict does not exist at some level.

It would be wonderfull if all people got the same start, but, as Tyler points out, life without competition would be boring. What is there to fight for? What is there to want? What is the point?

posted by Jez
ismu: I think that the thing you wrote about the golden mountain is very smart... are we raised to desire more and more or is this something we were born with? I dont know about others but I can say that I personally don't have this need for richnes... Im happy as I am, as long as I have nature and someone to talk to... but If someone gives me a computer and a big screen tv, I wont hesitate to use them...

Yes. Not all of people searching for wealth for main target. But lot's of people do. Take a random sample about 20 people around you neighborhood. You'll find out that some of them will always looking for higher standard of living. Always higher than currently they got now. 5 out of 20 will be enough to keep trade to be continuous.

Basically all of us want to be comfort. And richness is the most common way to buy things to make us feel comfort. Money can be almost anything.

Money can make peace or evil. Depend on the man behind the gun.

I'll give in. Guess it's human nature... :bugeye:

I havent read everything everyone said, but this made the think of something :

2. The society has reached a level of technology that makes every citizen's living standard high enough for them to survive without working.

I think it will be a very great day when robots make enough food for everyone to live happily and noone has to work and everyone can just chill... o baby ;) damn, that WOULD be cool...

The simple reason why we use money is because eventually bartering becomes inconvenient. Money (especially money in a fiat currency economy like the US-and I imagine most countries use) is simply a voucher that we have all sort of decided is equivalent to something. So, I trade in one of my little $1 vouchers and I get 2 liters of pop. I trade in $1000 vouchers and I get a computer. I trade in $16,000 vouchers and I get a car. Imagine how many apples you'd have to bring into a dealership to buy a car? Depending on the type of apple, 16,000 to 32,000! Or 320 head of cattle (depending on the going rate at the time).
Deep down there is simply no difference between bartering for goods and trading slips of paper for goods, except that the slips of paper in a fiat currency system have no inherent value beyond what the governmnt says their worth, and are only as good as the industrial and military might of the country in question.


While I do hate a fiat system, I am down with capitalism. I also don't really see the problem with money. Lets face it, really, once you've made a certain amount of money, you don't play for that anymore. I sincerely doubt that the people who are the CEO's and the rest of the rich of the rich do what they do for power, not for more cash. I sincerely doubt that Bill Gates keeps MS plowing ahead because he likes making his millions a second, (yes, an exaggeration) I find it more likely that he likes the idea of having an underling call up the DOJ and tell them that if this lawsuit keeps going on they're going to pull every copy of Windows from every shelf in America. Deep down the struggle has been over this Hobbesian clusterf*ck for sovreign power, hell, let's all face it, it's good to be the king.

I admit, I like things, but the reason why I work and try to gather money is so that I can eat and sleep and watch tv and take trips to Boston and attract potential mates with shiney objects and the reason why I'm not out growing my own food and slaughtering my own cows is that I prefer being a chemist and an aspiring philosopher and there are people who prefer to grow things and kill them for food and as long as I work hard to get him the medicine he needs for the price of my labor, then i feel entitled to be able to get the food that I need for the price of his.

How is that wrong?

Let everyone make their own money. If they can't back it up, then it is devalued.

Just to get back to the original question, “do we need money?” I think the answer is yes, at least for the moment. Jez you asked how it worked in star trek. Well saying they don’t use money isn’t absolutely true. They do trade, and to trade is just another form of “money”. What they believe in is the advancement of there selves “same as borg”. They aim to better themselves and not what they have. I think if we could all try to use the same ideas would be best, but I can see that will never happen in my life time, for this I am deeply sad. But I hope that in my life I can help towards the goal, for this I can see a few changes are needed.
1.the advancement of emotional intelligence. e.g. knowing that doing something bad is wrong
2. realize that were are not alone In this universe and to fight ourselves is not just pointless but stupid.
3. every person in a human being, and are our family

I do not mean everybody should go around singing songs and saying “I love u man” but the greed should be stopped.

Does anyone else feel the same?

Not until I'm dead. Personally, money motivates me.

I realize this is a bad thing, but I'm 16 so whatever, I'm sure I'll eventually grow out of it. For now, however, I want cash, and a lot of it.

Why the fuck is that a bad thing, Tyler? Money can buy you anything. Including love.

What's wrong with wanting the good things in life?

Some people will say money shouldn't be what motivates you. That happiness should be. Hapiness and understanding. These peopel are often to dense to accept the fact that some of us like finer (therefore, more expensive things) to make us happy.

Also, Xev motivates me.

Tyler:
Some people will say money shouldn't be what motivates you. That happiness should be. Hapiness and understanding. These peopel are often to dense to accept the fact that some of us like finer (therefore, more expensive things) to make us happy.

Thank you!
If finding the mass of the Higgs boson makes me happy, I need money to fund my experiments.

Need money to eat sushi instead of beans and rice. Need money to drink brandy instead of cheap gin. Etc.

Thank you.

Well, someone asked how you determine the value of something. Well, if you took a economics class you would know that it is based on supply and demand. It gets a little more complicated when you get into manufactured items, because then you have to think about cost of supplies, cost of production, cost of shipment, and so on. But, even those things can be reduced to supply and demand at a certain level to determine their worth.

the motivation for objects shouldent be what makes us happy. this is what i think is whats wrong with the word.
what if u lived in a word that money did not exsits, u could do all the experments you want.
money is not needed on earth, soon as people relise that then sooner we will be better off.

So then how does the economy work?

If I'm an apple farmer, how do I get me some cloths?

Economics is the control and distribution of resources.

Oggie:
how do you decide who gets the research equipment? who makes the research equipment in the first place? Who supplies the materials to create the research equipment? Who supplies the food that the scientist has to eat while the scientist works on studying things? How do we decide who gets anything or who makes anything? part of the problems that people have with economic study lately is that it doesn't focus enough on production of supplies, but rather, profit margins.

Tyler:
Economy is simple. You have something that people need (specifically your labor) and they have something that you need (specifically money for wants and needs). You trade your labor at fair market value for their money, and then you buy the clothes.

or, if you are an apple farmer, you harvest apples and can either process them into more valuable materials (apple sauce, apple cider, apple juice, apple butter/jelly, apple pies, apple preserves) or you can keep the raw material and trade to someone who owns lots of sheep who weave wool to make cloth to make clothes.


finally, can we seriously ONCE have an economic discussion in which "Star Trek" doesn't come up?

Uh.....Rio.......I do know what economy is. I was asking him so that he can show me how a society would work without trade/money.

And no, no we can not.

“Some people are so dependant on the system that they will fight to protect it”
Is that any better than star trek.
My point is that there is no need for money. We must come to thinking in which we no longer think about how much money I get today, but the growth of oneself. Were after all humans. We were not born with money attached to us, it was invented. As I said before we need to evolve our emotional intelligence. In short we need to improve ourselves, to live with ourselves, as were not doing too well at the moment.

Everybody gets what it is they need for the advancement of themselves and the human race. After all we are all in it together. Everybody should be able to decide who needs what and how much of it.

"Everybody gets what it is they need for the advancement of themselves and the human race. After all we are all in it together. Everybody should be able to decide who needs what and how much of it."

I want a million apples. And I'm not joking.

You're an apple farmer.

All I have to offer in return is a couple t-shirts. Wanna trade?

We were not born with money attached to us, it was invented.

That does not make it unnecessary. I was not born with a supply of penicillian attatched, but if I come down with a bad staph infection, I need it to survive.

There are cultures around today that do not use money.

Medicine is necessary but if the whole world didn’t use money, would anyone die? (possibly the tax man).
I don’t know if that’s a question, but I’m not an apple farmer (as one person on here said he was). What is needed is an advancement that makes it possible to construct food, from the very atoms. Thus you would never need a million apples. I know this is a long way off, that’s one of the reasons why I said it wouldn’t happen in my lifetime. Do you not think this would be a better way to live?

Oggie:
Medicine is necessary but if the whole world didn’t use money, would anyone die?

Yes, people would die.

What is needed is an advancement that makes it possible to construct food, from the very atoms. Thus you would never need a million apples. I know this is a long way off, that’s one of the reasons why I said it wouldn’t happen in my lifetime. Do you not think this would be a better way to live?

How would one buy such an invention? How would one trade other goods?

And finally, why bother? What is wrong with money?

So how would I go get food? Are you insinuating that someone would work for free? Or that everyone would get equal protions no matter what they did?

If that was so, then I would do nothing but sit around.

Around 35,000 years ago, there was trade all across Europe. We know this from such artifacts as greenstone axe-heads from Austria found in Malta and dated form that period, and other such things. I don't think any tokens considered "money" have been found from that period.

Even Flintsones used money;)...

the problem with other kinds of trade is that it is not handy.like for example if a guy wants to buy out a pair of shoes without money,would he care to carry another stuff (so heavy and bulky than money)everywhere he is trading?

And oh yeah.money is damm important.remember those Richie Rich trailers?
"money cant buy freedom"

who cares about freedom when you have got a Rock 'n Roll band inside your living room.

money is root for evil...

yeah sure,so better keep good security systems so that it can protect yours...

;)

enjoy...


bye!

who would die without money?
the invenction would not be bought, but used for us all, if is given to all and all who want it. think about it, no more famen or hunger. (die mac donalds).
yes there is a huge problem of money, poeple die for money, wars are sarted for money, the problem is the greed of money! u can't tell me that money isnt bad. would u kill someone for a million pounds if no-one found out? if u even have to think about it, then i have proven my point.
the flintstones are a cartoon!
feerbom is inportant. think if u couldent leave your own house without the worry about someone will shout you b/c they feel like it. problem no?
everyone would work toward a single goal and that is the advancment of the human race, not the advancment of personal gain. am i wrong?

who would die without money?

You bring agriculture to a standstill if you haven't a good means of trade. Famine results.

yes there is a huge problem of money, poeple die for money, wars are sarted for money, the problem is the greed of money!

Wars are started over religion too.

u can't tell me that money isnt bad. would u kill someone for a million pounds if no-one found out? if u even have to think about it, then i have proven my point.

I didn't. And I tell you that money is one of the most usefull human inventions ever.

everyone would work toward a single goal and that is the advancment of the human race, not the advancment of personal gain. am i wrong?

You're wrong. People would work toward the goal of getting more commodities, whether or not money was used in getting them.

"everyone would work toward a single goal and that is the advancment of the human race, not the advancment of personal gain. am i wrong?"

Yup. For one, I would still work towards personal gain.

flintstones are a cartoon!
AUGH *pulls out hair* Star Trek doesn't exist either, Oggie!!!

Wars are started neither for religion or money. they are started over 2 things, and two things only:power and land. Land is infinitely more valuable than money, and power is really what the people in charge want. Sure, on the foot-troop level, wars are fought over religion, but only because "God says kill all those people" can be a very good motivator to a religious people.


everyone would work toward a single goal and that is the advancment of the human race, not the advancment of personal gain. am i wrong?

yes, you are wrong. No one would do anything and the entire planet would enter a dark age of epic proportions, because each person would have to be concerned with providing sustenence.

the invenction would not be bought, but used for us all, if is given to all and all who want it. think about it, no more famen or hunger.

with what resources? with what materials would this amazing invention be made? how does this invention get made, Oggie?

think if u couldent leave your own house without the worry about someone will shout you b/c they feel like it

Er... i don't think I've ever worried that someone might shout at me because they feel like it. Unless you mean someone will SHOOT me because they feel like it. in that case that is the risk that we take every day for living in a free soceity. and that can happen in any soceity. even a moneyless one where everyone holds hands and sings 60's protest songs.

Oggie,

that was a jest intented to tell how importatnt money could have been (if life like that existed)...;)

gee...



bye!

i still don't think money is a good thing. if we never infented money, would we now all have died? i think not. we should not need to use money, we are all humans, why bother with it all.

i know start trek isent real, but the ideas are.

im looking at this as if i was above the earth looking down, watching people live and die by this thing called money. can anyone else see that pitcher?

Nope, because we all think logically instead of idealistically.

You seem to miss the problems with erasing money. For one, then does everyone get an equal share of everything? If not then you have to make trade the way to get products. And trade is just a primitive form of money. If so then you'll see a ton of people not doing any work. I'll be one of them. It happened in large areas of the former Soviet Union. People just didn't work.

"if we never infented money, would we now all have died? i think not"

Is there any logic behind this? Did Hitler fight for money? Did Stalin fight for money? Did Napolean fight for money? Were the French/English wars about money? No.

Tyler:
I think it's probably more appropriate to say that money is a more sophisticated form of trade.

Sorry for jumping in so late, but I just cant resist.
MONEY - itself is not a bad thing. (Bad dollar bill, bad dollar bill!) Its the person holding the money that is bad. Its the greed that accompanies the money. If we were all using buffalo chips instead of currency, people would still find a reason to bitch and fight. If we took out all the money and started trading - would that end world wars and famine and - well you get the point. Im not into materialist things in any way, so I dont go out of my way and waste money to buy those things. But that doesnt mean a person is bad because he likes the finer things in life, it just means you two have a different perspective on things. Neither one is better.

And to all you people bitching about money being a bad thing - well arent you sitting here using 1000 dollars machines to state your opinion? If you dont like money, sell all you sh*t, move to the mountains and eat berries. More power to ya!!!

Take care. :)

Someday when we invent replicators we don't need money anymore.

Begin Rant:

AUGH! What is your obsession with Star Trek?!?! it is *FICTION*. It DOES NOT EXIST. Everyone repeat after me "Star Trek does not exist... it is a work of fiction... Captain Kirk is played by a hack actor... Spock will not come down to the planet and wear a headband... Mark Hamil is not really Luke Skywalker...". it simply doesn't work people!!! it's not even a logical argument!!! it's television!!! that's like saying that all crimes should be solved in an hour because that's how they do it on Law and Order!! You're saying "There's a society that doesn't exist that doesn't use money and it spans the galaxy, and they're doing fine. Why do we need money?"! Do you see how nonsensical that is???

End rant.

Ok, I feel better now.

Seriously, trade has been with us since we've written things down. In fact, trade is the impetus from which we elevate ourselves above the animals bopping around in the forest. Without trade in our history and our present, I see one of two scenarios for the human race:

1: We remain barely sentient omnivores, grunting at the sky and doing the hunter/gatherer deal.
2: We ALL work as crude farmers, and everyone invents their own wheel, their own irrigation concept, their own better plows, and their own grain stock. Our lives are hard, dirty, sweaty, smelly, and spent in fear of losing our land and our livelihood to war, famine, disease, or unpredictable climate change.

I don't disagree with the idea of separating oneself from the culture and "look down on the earth from above" but if you're going to do that you're either going to have to examine the facts in front of you more carefully, and look past the superficial issues into the root cause of where the real problems occur.

ok, IMO, money is not necessary for society nor has it ever been necessary but I do believe that unless the whole world is willing to end a society built on money it would be very hard to implement.

How do you come to this opinion?

Money is a tool only needed for wants and society should be built only on needs. You cannot have equality in a society based on wants. Necessities should be free to all people.

Because no country has all the raw materials needed, they have to buy them from other countries which needs money.

We only have 3 basic needs.
Food, Water, and Shelter.
Nearly every country has the raw materials available to fill those needs. The places where that isn't the case probably shouldn't have people living on it.

Why do we have to have equality in a society? Shouldn't the more talented or more skilled get more than the less skilled? Should doctors, janitors, waiters and scientists all get the same comforts? Why be a doctor? Why innovate if there's no reward for it?

ok, IMO, money is not necessary for society nor has it ever been necessary but I do believe that unless the whole world is willing to end a society built on money it would be very hard to implement.

Beyond that, please suggest one country or soceity that didn't use money. Even communist utopias had money... in theory. ;)

Nearly, being the key word. Many countries are

Yes they are the 3 basic needs for survival but when you come down to health care etc, this is something that is not available in many countries.

There's hasn't been any country that has worked without money. Most communist theories were based more on single countries than the whole world and this is why they needed currency. Trotsky was maybe one of the only communist theorists who based his theories on a world wide basis and the only one who could have created a society without money.

Money is a manifestation of the hard work that people do. ie if you work for 10 hours at $5 and hour, you get $50. Your hard work is worth $50!

Money isn't evil, its good. It makes lazy people work, it gives rise to cometition, and the endless prusuit of perfection.

So do we need money? Need it no, if you mean only surviving, food, water, clothing. However if we only have food and water what makes us different form other animals?

Communism failed not because of money, but because it was based on the idea that man is naturaly good, until he learns to be evil. That isn't true because even a lion tries to make itself look better than another lion, no matter if it means killing it.

Im glad that I found this thread because I have recently been pondering this question deeply. What ive come to is that money (currency) and an economy had become necessary for civilization to attain a sense of order among its citizens. Our current government systems and technology level has made us dependant on an economy in my opinion. Money is not the root of all evil since their has been conflict for many other reasons which include religious belief systems and personal transgressions between two people or groups of people.
This question in all honesty is larger than what many of you think because money and economy is intimatly linked with all aspects of a future or modern society including everything from energy, to government, to means of production. It is a philosophical and deep question that can be easily answered once you look at how currency has been used in our history and how we could eliminate the problems that come with currency and money.
I probably didnt help much but im just trying to give you the basis of what ive discovered in my own reseach into this question.

In low-scarcity America, money is needed to put food on the table, but that can be done with time to spare. Some people use their leftover time to give freely to society. For example, open source software. They gain nothing from it except whuffie.

In a post scarcity society, money could be completely replaced by whuffie. It's still a currency, but not a material one.

In low-scarcity America, money is needed to put food on the table, but that can be done with time to spare. Some people use their leftover time to give freely to society. For example, open source software. They gain nothing from it except whuffie.

In a post scarcity society, money could be completely replaced by whuffie. It's still a currency, but not a material one.
Even in a post-scarcity economy there will still be a demand for services. If tomorrow someone invented magic nanomachines that manufacture anything from piles of raw elements in seconds, you would still need to pay people to teach you Spanish, or perform your heart operation, or whatever. Presumably the service industry would still operate under normal “supply and demand” economics. If there aren't many people who are qualified to perform heart surgery and lots of people who need it, you can expect the heart surgeons to demand some form of compensation for their valuable time.

The only way there could be a society without money would be if this society had an infinite amount of everything that can be produced instantly by anyone for absolutely no cost and in no time. Just getting rid of scarcity is not enough because people might want one product faster for instance and thus would have to pay by some means for this extra want. In this society, basically every person is a god and thus needs nor wants anything, so there can be nothing that one person could ever want of another. As long as man is not a magical god with infinite power, man will need money.

**and a question to banshee though i think he/she left...

so basically you wish to subject yourself to slavery, working for nothing? There is a reason the slaves revolted--being a slave blows. I don't care how altruistic and high and mighty you think you are you would not willingly make yourself a slave. If you would though, please come to my house I could use a slave to do all my work and I wouldn't even feel guilty because I would know you wanted to do it.

it takes 20,000 litres of water to produce one kilo of beef
on average day an adult spends 77 minutes eating
male monkeys go bald the same way men do
a lobsters kidneys are in their forehead and its teeth are in their stomach
elephants and short tailed shrews get only two hours sleep aday
a pelican breathes through its mouth it has no nostrils

all this was found out with money if we dont have money we dont have knowledge

spider silk matrial is stronger than steel on a wieght basis
to get this informatin to precise detail through labs without anything thats worth value then man or smart women would not bothr to do it
so the money thing is to give people value
learning the value of money is important therwise you can give up a very expensive or worthy lets say cow or rare pot or sumthing thats of value without value or knowing the value how would you kow what its worth

people can be of value too they may not be rich but the value they are worth is the future
say jesus for instance do you think people back then if they knew his value now would they have done what they did to him knowing he has stigmata and churches that bend at the knees with billions of people saying his name
well people can of value without money the money is to do with other payments
it is an attraction of that little metal thing in your hands that is like a key to others how they percieve the future
money makes them lower people think they can have a future and they want money all the time
but the reality is you dont need money to be in the furure you have to be of sum importance and jesus is one man that showed us this way to be true
your faith in sumthing you believe in can make and let you live side by side with this metal thing in your hand

and still stand strait instad of bend like a ape

let em think they can rule the future throw your two cents at em they will oick it up like dogs
ket em think their helping the future cause theyre not jesus took it all

you make or break their dreams cause their money is their faith
throw money at em and they will run to pick it up like a pack of mongrel dogs
yet your the one they wont member now
but the future well who knows
so why worry bout money

my veiws of money is it looks like a ring you can mak a hole in it and wear it
and one money rules em all

Im working on a small text in school about the possibility of if a MODERN society would make it without no money? I know that in STAR TREK there is no money, how have they done that? Star Trek has done that the same way they travel faster than light: IT'S FICTION!!!. But if you watch Voyager, a situation where they are stuck on the ship for years on end, they trade things like replicator credits and time on the holodeck. So, even on Star Trek, they end up using money.

The only way for a human society to not use money is either a very small, probably low tech group united by family ties or perhaps a strong ideology (small communes have survived for a few years, but rarely more than one generation since the younger members aren't true believers); or an authoritatian system (such as the military or a fascist state) where you are simply issued what you need and expected to work or be shot.

Even within a family unit, notice how much more enthusiastic kids are to do a job when they're getting paid. Human nature requires that the reward be commensurate with the effort. Otherwise, we all become a bunch of slackers.

PS How'd the school project come out? You've had 5 years to finish it, so......

Star Trek has done that the same way they travel faster than light: IT'S FICTION!!!. But if you watch Voyager, a situation where they are stuck on the ship for years on end, they trade things like replicator credits and time on the holodeck. So, even on Star Trek, they end up using money.

Even ST was pretty inconsistent about the whole "no money" thing. They sometimes say that they don't use money, but there are loads and loads of scenes from the show in which people haggle over the price of things.

I don't think you could run a modern society without money. Even if everyone really is selfless and willing to work for free due to societal pressure/pride/whatever, you need some unit to act as a measure of value.

Im working on a small text in school about the possibility of if a MODERN society would make it without no money?

I know that these goals must have been achived in order to remove the money:

1. The society can not be dependent of another one.
2. The society has reached a level of technology that makes every citizen's living standard high enough for them to survive without working.

What else has to have been achieved? And what problems do a society without money meet? I know that in STAR TREK there is no money, how have they done that? Please help me with your oppinions! They mean alot!
I've been working on this for a few years. The first 2 points are right. But people must also not want too much stuff. It all has to do with culture. A culture that is modest in spending will produce people who don't need much more then their basic needs to be fulfilled. It's quite a task. We live in an extremely consumerist world. Changing our focus from consumerism to some other form of philosohy that fulfills us can be quite challenging.

I've been working on this for a few years. The first 2 points are right. But people must also not want too much stuff. It all has to do with culture. A culture that is modest in spending will produce people who don't need much more then their basic needs to be fulfilled. It's quite a task. We live in an extremely consumerist world. Changing our focus from consumerism to some other form of philosohy that fulfills us can be quite challenging.
Remember, one of the main purposes of money is to serve as a quantitative measure of value. Do you really think that you could have any complex society without a quanitative measure of value? I think you will always need some kind of "value unit," even if most people don't devote their time to accumulating as much as possible.

Remember, one of the main purposes of money is to serve as a quantitative measure of value. Do you really think that you could have any complex society without a quanitative measure of value? I think you will always need some kind of "value unit," even if most people don't devote their time to accumulating as much as possible.
Huuumm... interesting comment.

Consider this. The actual value of a product is not defined by the price itself, but by a pool of characteristics possessed by the product and perceived by the public as valuable. The price is never a good measure of value For instance, profit is constantly added to the product. Do you consider that added price valuable? In a way, yes, but do you think that portion of the price is valued properly or is the value inflated (or deflated) by whoever is selling it? Also, consider the following. I have $50. Should I eat out with the money or should I buy a game? If I eat out, I spend the $50, eat and that's it. If I buy a game I can spend several months playing and having fun. So which one is more valuable- the dinner or the game? (Of course, if I don't like games, the dinner will be more valuable. Value is subjective and perceived by each separate individual).

The price of a product is based more on the costs to produce the product then on the actual value of the product.

Now... take away money, make production nearly 100% automatic and, voila, you have a product which is based purely on its real value, rather then on its nominal currency-based value.

Value is defined by what someone is willing to pay for it (whether it be money, services, or whatever).

Consider this. The actual value of a product is not defined by the price itself, but by a pool of characteristics possessed by the product and perceived by the public as valuable.But the money allows you to quantify this and make rough estimates between items (e.g. if I'm willing to pay $50 on a 2-person dinner, how much am I willing to pay for 3 people?).

The price of a product is based more on the costs to produce the product then on the actual value of the product.Obviously people still value the product more than they value that amount of money, or the producer would go out of business.

The prices in a free market automatically adjust to the right level of the collective perceived value.

I agree.

.Riomacleod said......
.

Why do we have to have equality in a society? Shouldn't the more talented or more skilled get more than the less skilled? Should doctors, janitors, waiters and scientists all get the same comforts? Why be a doctor? Why innovate if there's no reward for it?

Passion.......

Doctors would still be doctors because it is their passion it is what they love to do.
In my chosen profession I get paid little but it is what I love to do and wouldn't decide to work less or more because I get paid more. My reward IS the work itself.

The reward/money motivates a small percent of people and in the end they feel empty. Just because you can touch something does not make it real.

Rewards/Money was never and will never be what motivates me. I am sure absolutely positive that I am not the only one.

.Riomacleod said......
.

Why do we have to have equality in a society? Shouldn't the more talented or more skilled get more than the less skilled?
Usually when people talk about "equality" what they mean is equality of opportunity - everyone getting an equal chance to try to become a doctor and the best qualified/most talented/hardest working achieving it, rather than having some people end up being a janitor by default because they have the wrong skin color or were born into a poor family. I don't know anyone who has ever seriously proposed that people of unequal skill, talent, or dedication should be compensated the same for their labor. Even under soviet-era communism people were paid more if they possessed important skills or simply worked harder and produced more.

Yes, "money" can be banished, but unfortunately, not very easily, anytime soon.

In a hypothetical society of like-minded altruistic robots, not caring that they might often do more work than they benefit or get paid, decisions could be made via collective logic, and not by the persuation of trading "money." Perhaps we already see this a bit, in the way that computer servers work, generally just doing all reasonable requests that anybody makes, without their "hands out" for a "payment" for every little job.

Since humans are inherently selfish, there are limits to how much work we can get out of them, without corresponding payments. Thus, we have to have a medium of trade, or "money" as we call it.

Unfortunately, the more the government manipulates the money supply, the less credible it becomes, and the more prone to manufactured, on-purpose "inflation," perhaps leading the world to dump the dollar towards other mediums of exchange, perhaps even reverting to barter and other various "under the table," increasingly un-taxable deals.

In Star Trek, they eliminated money, or so they claim mostly, via presumably I think, the invention of the "replicator." When a computer can "copy" most anything you want, including food, it kind of undermines the whole concept of money. Then, almost everything but design and ideas maybe, becomes "free." Or did they eliminate money, by storytelling "wishful thinking?" Would a Star Trek society even be possible? Not without religion, I would say.

Money simply represents a measure of human labor and also of human skilled labor scarcity.

Since most humans usually don't want to "give away" very much labor for free, they demand something of value for it, and "money" often does tend to suffice, since they can use it to trade for the specialized benefits of other people's labor.

Hopefully, this helps explain why most any scheme of governments "printing money" to get more money, simply doesn't work for very long. Printing money, simply can not magically enlarge the supply of goods and services to buy, to correspond. So even more dollars chasing a slower-growing supply of goods and services, simply debases or devalues the dollars already in circulation, making everything seem to cost more, when in actuality, it's the dollar that is losing value.

Getting rid of money is irrelevant. What is replaced by money in the other hand....