If we find a way to live eternally?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yinyinwang
[B]If we find a way to live eternally?
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M*W: As I see it yinyin, that's the divine plan, and the human race is on its way to becoming immortal. Technically, we're still in the "last day of creation," so we're not finished, yet! As medical science moves forward to the future, we will be seeing life rejuvenating and extending beyond the imaginable. A lot of research has been done and is still ongoing on anti-aging. It's truly possible. The right diet, exercise, and a stress-free lifestyle is essential. Fine-tuning one's human imbalances with the appropriate vitamins, minerals and medications, helps to bring us to a wholesome existence. With the promise of stem cell therapies to rebuild damaged heart, liver, pancreas, brain, etc., we are on our way to total rejuvenation and life-extension. There will come a time in the very near future where invasive surgical procedures will be a thing of the past. Stem cells can be transplanted by microinvasive procedures. Right now scientists in the USA are working on autologous bone marrow transplantations into infarcted hearts and have been very successful with the results. Immortality is just a matter of time as far as our physical body is concerned. Our spirit OTOH has always been and will always be eternal.

Some of the doubters will say, "but this isn't God's work, it's man's." They are wrong. God gave us a brain and the ability to use our mind and intelligence for the greater good. As we evolve toward the "demortalization" of our human body, we are evolving toward a better understanding or "revelation" of the Oneness of our eternal Spirit which IS God. I don't know if this will take place in our present human lifetime or if it will occur thousands of years from now, which I doubt. It could be hundreds of years, but I'm even more positive that the convergence of our physical-mental-emotional-intellectual-spiritual convergence will evolve sooner than that. The human race is well on its way toward becoming Homo spiritus.

So when you hear Christians comment that we are living in the "last days," they are right. We are in the last days of creation. The total convergence of our body, mind and spirit, will ensure the "salvation" of the human race. Isn't this what they long for? Could the convergence of the human body, mind and spirit be what the Trinity is all about? Perhaps Jesus was a living example of this total convergence with God. I don't believe the understanding can be learned by their religion. The knowing or "gnosis" of this body-mind-spirit convergence is being revealed in the mind and heart of the human community as we evolve toward becoming the One Body, One Spirit of God.

Eternal life does not guarantee intelligence or ability beyond what is required to survive... a sufficiently invulnerable being could be quite stupid and incapable, and still live interminably.

Originally posted by BigBlueHead
Eternal life does not guarantee intelligence or ability beyond what is required to survive... a sufficiently invulnerable being could be quite stupid and incapable, and still live interminably.

It's eternal life, man!
Don't worry!
You have a lot of time to create for yourself super-brain.
:D

Ya... if you're smart enough...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigBlueHead
[B]Eternal life does not guarantee intelligence or ability beyond what is required to survive... a sufficiently invulnerable being could be quite stupid and incapable, and still live interminably.
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M*W: I agree. Our bioevolution would be based upon our survival needs, but then again, our spiritual needs for survival will need to be adjusted, too. When the convergence of the body-mind-spirit occurs, it will be through bioevolution and will not happen instantly like the rumors of the "rapture," but my question is this: Will the human race be adequately evolved in spirit so as not to have a need for anymoe man-made religions?

Do we evolve spiritually? I thought it was more about discovery/invention, and only passed down by social interaction and communication... but that's me, I don't know what other people think.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigBlueHead
[B]Do we evolve spiritually? I thought it was more about discovery/invention, and only passed down by social interaction and communication... but that's me, I don't know what other people think.
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M*W: We are already as spiritually evolved as we need to be. Our spirit has been the same for all eternity. Some may call this spirit "God." I do. So our spirit doesn't need to actually "evolve." What will occur is the human race will receive the revelation (knowing-"Gnosis") that we are truly One with God in Spirit and Flesh. We now use anywhere from 4-10% of our brain. This revelation will come to us in our understanding when our cumulative human brain evolves to an increased percentage of our brain power. I don't know at what point that will be--15% or 100%. I'd be interested to hear what our scientists on board say about this. As always, some people will evolve faster than others. Therefore, these people will receive the "knowing" before those who are less evolved. (I don't want to call names, but you know who you are). If those who are trapped in one of those mind-bending religions, I would venture to say that, even if "Gnosis" slapped them in the face, they wouldn't recognize it, so they may be left behind in the conquest to see--and to be--God.

Let's bring a little perspective to the discussion.

Eternity is not just a long time, eternity is not just a very very long time. Eternity is forever.

Immortality is not just for a thousand years, Immortality is not a million years, Immortality is not even a zillion years. Immortality is for ever.

To be able to live forever is ony a potential. For even if you live for a million years you still can not know that you are immortal.

Because the day after your millionth birthady you might get run over by an anti gravity truck (chuckles)

The greatest problem with immortality is not the ability to exist but to do so with out boredom driving you insane and therefore to death.

Boredom of life after "a thousand years" is the main obstacle to achieving immortality that can only be reckoned by hindsight.

The biggest part of the question of aging is that as we grow old we mature, our outlook on life changes and becomes less enthuisiastic. If we take a thousand years perpective, how do we maintain a youthfull outlook on a life so well lived. This is the biggest problem of eternal life I feel.

The otheraspect worth considering is that life/death cycles may be a universal neccesity. In that the universe is rejuvenated and in a state of constant regeneration because of life/death cycles.

To achieve the potential of immortality may very well end up causing the destruction of the universe. In that in part , it is our quest for immortality that actually keeps the universe eternal in the first place.

reminds me of a poem I wrote some time ago

Eternity

A song that will never be sung,
so melodic so beautiful the heart does sigh
A poem that will never be posed,
so rhythmic so profound
A word that will never be spoken
so full of meaning that it makes you cry
An answer so wanted
but never be found



A feeling that will never be felt
so strong so intense
A love that will never come to you
so sweet so full
A future that is always there
an adventure so immense
A curiosity that is never quenched
A heat that never will cool


There is no better way
as none have shown
How to keep our noses to the wind
and our eyes beyond
There is always something
that can never be done
A game that can only be played
and never lost or won

Originally posted by Quantum Quack
Let's bring a little perspective to the discussion.

Eternity is not just a long time, eternity is not just a very very long time. Eternity is forever.

Immortality is not just for a thousand years, Immortality is not a million years, Immortality is not even a zillion years. Immortality is for ever.

To be able to live forever is ony a potential. For even if you live for a million years you still can not know that you are immortal.

Because the day after your millionth birthady you might get run over by an anti gravity truck (chuckles)

The greatest problem with immortality is not the ability to exist but to do so with out boredom driving you insane and therefore to death.

Boredom of life after "a thousand years" is the main obstacle to achieving immortality that can only be reckoned by hindsight.

The biggest part of the question of aging is that as we grow old we mature, our outlook on life changes and becomes less enthuisiastic. If we take a thousand years perpective, how do we maintain a youthfull outlook on a life so well lived. This is the biggest problem of eternal life I feel.

The otheraspect worth considering is that life/death cycles may be a universal neccesity. In that the universe is rejuvenated and in a state of constant regeneration because of life/death cycles.

To achieve the potential of immortality may very well end up causing the destruction of the universe. In that in part , it is our quest for immortality that actually keeps the universe eternal in the first place.

reminds me of a poem I wrote some time ago

Eternity

A song that will never be sung,
so melodic so beautiful the heart does sigh
A poem that will never be posed,
so rhythmic so profound
A word that will never be spoken
so full of meaning that it makes you cry
An answer so wanted
but never be found

A feeling that will never be felt
so strong so intense
A love that will never come to you
so sweet so full
A future that is always there
an adventure so immense
A curiosity that is never quenched
A heat that never will cool

There is no better way
as none have shown
How to keep our noses to the wind
and our eyes beyond
There is always something
that can never be done
A game that can only be played
and never lost or won
----------
M*W: What a beautiful poem! I think that when we achieve immortality of the body, mind and spirit, no further evolution will be needed, but who's to say evolution will stop. I don't know, but I believe we won't be bored with ourselves or each other. We will have a different "mission" than we do now. I imagine it to be a single mission for the One Body-Mind-Spirit of God that we will become. The are other worlds to conquer, but I feel when we reach immortality of mind, body and spirit, our mission will be something we like to do with our new "status" as Homo spiritus. This may sound a little like sci-fi now, but it won't be then! It will be reality.

Yin,

Do we become gods?
If we find a way to live eternally?I guess this depends on what is meant by the term ‘god’.


But I believe I can make a reasoned argument that shows that yes it is inevitable that you will become at least a part of God the creator of the universe. One might immediately state that the universe already exists so how can you become something that started everything, but then we must consider time itself as being something that can be created; actually I believe that is impossible but I won’t let that ruin this story.

I will assume you are relatively stupid just like everyone else, apart from me perhaps (please note the temporary suspension of my famous and usual humility). But we were even more stupid before we evolved, and at the outset of life we were entirely dumb single cell slimes. The trend is that we grow smarter as we evolve. But if we accept my assertion that intelligence is just an emergent property of neural patterns and that soon we should be able to transfer these patterns to other more resilient media other than biological, then we can see the beginning of an inevitable evolutionary path towards larger and larger neural networks in other more exotic substrates.

At some point we will realize that to grow further we will need to more closely cooperate with each other and that of course will lead to mergers of neural patterns and of course eventually to a single huge intelligence. Beyond that we will be able to solve all problems and understand everything and even how to start and stop time and how to create the universe. Of course when we have consumed everything and we are all that is left then there will be nothing to do other than to start again with maybe exploding ourselves in a big bang and ……..

Praise be to us, God, me, uh whatever….

Originally posted by BigBlueHead
Ya... if you're smart enough...

Funny...but, for the sake of topic, lets assume man has achieved immortality. Now in eternal life wouldn't there be a point where even an average human can achieve amazing feats of scientific, athletic, or creative kind? I mean eventually living so long provides unlimited practice time and since humans are such novelty seeking creatures they would eventually get bored and pick up something and become exceedingly good at it, better than anyone has ever done it before. Could be a few 100 or thousand years.

Let us imagine that god has decided only those who have spiritually and intellegently upgraded himself to a certain level will be able to understand the way to eternity, like the different between diamonds and carbons.

What does spiritually mean?

Some one may have intelligence but uses it to commits crimes or focus on making money, etc.
Some one may never hurt an ant but not interlligent enough to master the complexity.
So by rationality we mean the levels of intelligence and spirit are high and form a mutual benifitial pair of yin yang.

I don't have much time left, so I'll shoot the bull, for a second.

Biological immortality, may exist in our future however there will still exist death, accidents, non-curable desease, suicides, etc..

In order to achieve biological immortality though the first thing we need to eradicate from earth is myticism, god concepts, astrology, numerology, and every other variant of mysticism. Oh!! and of course we need to battle with the acceptable ethics of our time.

Godless.

P.S. will state more latters..

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yinyinwang
[B]Let us imagine that god has decided only those who have spiritually and intellegently upgraded himself to a certain level will be able to understand the way to eternity, like the different between diamonds and carbons.
----------
M*W: Yinyin, you're amazing! That is the plan!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Godless
[B]I don't have much time left, so I'll shoot the bull, for a second.

Biological immortality, may exist in our future however there will still exist death, accidents, non-curable desease, suicides, etc..

In order to achieve biological immortality though the first thing we need to eradicate from earth is myticism, god concepts, astrology, numerology, and every other variant of mysticism. Oh!! and of course we need to battle with the acceptable ethics of our time.

Godless.

P.S. will state more latters..
----------
M*W: Biological immortality converging with the eternal spirit would do away with death (i.e. biologic immortality), accidents (of which there are none, non-curable diseases (which will be eradicated), and suicide will be impossible. Immortality means just that "without death." Biological immortality has absolutely NOTHING to do with mysticism, god concepts, astrology, numerology, etc.! These things are intellectually driven. With biological immortality, these concepts would have long been forgotten. They only apply to mortals who use them to understand their own mortality.

Originally posted by BigBlueHead
Ya... if you're smart enough...
:)
It's eternity.
Any tiny amount of smartness to start with will be enough for creating super-intelligence and super-brains.
:D

How much smarter is a ten year-old dog than a five year-old dog?

I don't think that immortality implies that you will get steadily smarter without any effort.

Originally posted by BigBlueHead
How much smarter is a ten year-old dog than a five year-old dog?

I don't think that immortality implies that you will get steadily smarter without any effort.
:cool:
You won't get steadily smarter without any effort.
But you will get smarter and smarter and smarter with so little effort, if you have an infinite amount of time to work things out at your own pace.
:D

I find that a little hopeful, if you don't mind my saying so...

People used to think that computers would eventually become self-aware and take over the world if we built them big and complex enough... turns out we're not that lucky. It may take more than time to achieve that steady increase in smarts.

Ok, so this response is a bit late but I hadn't read it until today.

We now use anywhere from 4-10% of our brain. This revelation will come to us in our understanding when our cumulative human brain evolves to an increased percentage of our brain power. I don't know at what point that will be--15% or 100%. I'd be interested to hear what our scientists on board say about this. As always, some people will evolve faster than others.

Ok, I'm not trying to pick on you MW, but I'm tired of hearing the absolutely moronic quotation that "humans only use 10% of our brains". Please go read this (http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm) and stop spreading myths.

By the way the second part of your quote almost made me bust out laughing. We'll only come to this revelation when we use 15-100% of our brain. I guess you've already made the transition to super-brain because of your ability to point out this "fact".

Funny...but, for the sake of topic, lets assume man has achieved immortality. Now in eternal life wouldn't there be a point where even an average human can achieve amazing feats of scientific, athletic, or creative kind? I mean eventually living so long provides unlimited practice time and since humans are such novelty seeking creatures they would eventually get bored and pick up something and become exceedingly good at it, better than anyone has ever done it before. Could be a few 100 or thousand years.

Sure we could get really good at wide variety of things, but we're not going to understand everything (in a Godlike way) in our current form. I'd be willing to wager that you could read quantum physics books to a gorilla from now to eternity and he'd still wouldn't get it. There are certainly applications that require thought so beyond our current capabilities that we, like the gorilla, have no hope of ever really understanding them. We're certainly not limited to our current capabilities for all eternity, though.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by voice of reason
[B]Sure we could get really good at wide variety of things, but we're not going to understand everything (in a Godlike way) in our current form. I'd be willing to wager that you could read quantum physics books to a gorilla from now to eternity and he'd still wouldn't get it. There are certainly applications that require thought so beyond our current capabilities that we, like the gorilla, have no hope of ever really understanding them. We're certainly not limited to our current capabilities for all eternity, though.
----------
M*W: I agree. So, what are you saying? That we will have 100% use of our brain power? I agree with that. It's evolution to a better existence. There is no way we could have the brain power that we do NOW when we have reached a total and successful convergence of the body-mind-spirit. That will be at least 100% use of our brain and 100% use of our immortal body.

MW: Did you read the article I linked for you earlier?

We have a couple of different spots that are causing our (perhaps not apparent) differences of opinion.

Clarification 1

The first is relatively simple and is partialy explained in the snopes article I linked to (which itself provides some links to additional sources). You seem to believe that humans have extraneous brain power that we can some day harness to better understand ourselves and the universe. This is completely wrong. Some reasons:

1. Evolution would favor individuals that retained the same brain capacity without the additional costs associated with maintaing unused brain functions. The brain uses about a third of the bodies blood supply, if we only used 10% of our brain this massive diversion of resources would be 90% wasted. Any person that was able to maintain only what they used would have approximately 27% more resources to devote to hunting, gathering, procreating, or any other activity that would lead to its relative predominance versus the wasteful humans that only use 10% of our brains. It's an absolutely ludicrous argument from an evolutionary perspective.

2. PET scans (positron emission tomography) an MRI (magnetic resonance imaging) clearly show that the vast (way, way, way more than 10%) of our brain is actively used. There is no fallow portion of the brain that we may train to get in touch with our "spiritual self".

There are many other arguments that can be made, but these should suffice (I'll get more in depth if you want) to explain that the notion that we only use 10% of our brain is ludicrous. The notion that we only use 70% of our brain is equally ludicrous. We use a vast majority of our brain, there is no hidden resource of brain processing capability waiting to be tapped by sufficiently intelligent humans.

Look here, (http://www.csicop.org/si/9903/ten-percent-myth.html) here, (http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html) etc. (http://www.rense.com/general16/myth10.htm)

Clarification 2

You believe a soul is separate from our physical body. I respect your religious belief but understand that it is exactly that; a belief based on faith and not backed up by any scientific proof. I believe that consciousness is a property of emergence: the ability for simple rules to create complex systems. Through the interaction of millions of small simple agents extremely complex systems can emerge. A quick and technically butchered example: ant colonies find the quickest routes to food sources. Ants have an extremely small set of behaviours that they are capable of. (largely because of their extremely small brains). Ants can't go back to the colony and say "Look, there is some sugar water about 10 meters from here, go straight to the big mound, take a sharp left and it'll be on your left after you go about 6 meters". Instead they drop pheromones as they walk. Each ant is more likely to follow a path on which there are pheremones deposited than on a path in which they are not deposisted. As each ant goes down the path towards the food that path is reinforced with more pheremones causing more ants to folow that particular path. After a while all ants are following that path. Additionally the ants can not only communicate a where a food source is, but the shortest path to the food source.

Look here (http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~mdorigo/ACO/RealAnts.html), here (http://www.santafe.edu/sfi/publications/Working-Papers/99-01-009.pdf), etc. (http://www.tennessean.com/local/ssiboxes/03/WEB_0520-A-ANTS2.html) I could list a ton more examples but here's the point: an extremely simple behavior (laying a pheremone trail) can lead to extremely complex behavior (giving exact, perfectly short directions to a food source). Your brain works exactly the same way. Billions of neurons behaving in simple ways lead to very complex behaviors (memories, emotions, physical control, senses, etc.).

In my view, there is no such thing as a "soul". As a result I see the statement:

successful convergence of the body-mind-spirit.

as complete lunacy. There is no divergence between body-mind-spirit, mind and spirt are emergent properties of body.

Our difference of opinion

You believe (I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, so if I've got you wrong my apologies) that we'll become better humans and learn to use all of our powers to connect with the greater mysteries of the universe. I believe that we will understand the greater mysteries of the universe but it will be through the merging of technology and our bodies.

We're not going to get more brainpower through evolution. Brain power and reproductive success are not covarient (they don't increase together). In fact education tends to be highly negatively correlated with reproductive success. If anything, from an evolutionary perspective, human mental accuity (on average) should be decreasing.

What I think will happen, that I think is inevitable, is that we will become cyborgs. It sounds scary and sci-fi but it's already happening. People have artificial hearts, knees, etc. Artificially enchanced brain function will be yet another threshold that we eventually cross. It will probably start with something innocuous and not very controversial, repairing brains damaged by alzheimer's, for example. People will quickly realize, however, that no matter what your religion taught you the human body is far from perfect and has much room for improvement, including in mental areas. A quick example: why does it take you so long to drop a hot pan? Even with the body cheating and only sending the signal back to your spinal cord (instead of all the way to your brain for processing), it still takes a finite amount of time for the electrical signal to be passed along the nervous system. The speed at which this signal is passed is so vastly inferior to computer systems it's not even comparable (meters a minute versus hundreds of thousands of kilometers a second). So we'll definately speed up the connections between neurons.

Secondly your brain can only contain so many memories. We only have so large of a working memory. Eventually we'll have links between our brain and vastly more powerful computers that allow us to extend these capabilites.

So what I'm saying is that no spirtual-mental-body link is going to make us smarter. In fact, I don't think that there is such a thing. Still, it is absolutely unavoidable that humans will merge with our own technological creation to vastly increase our mental acuity.

Sorry for the long response.

Cheers,
Michael

M*W, yes correct, by the time biological immortality come about, the desease of mysticism should have been eradicated.

However I'm speaking to happen within our lives time.

That is why I stated that in order to have biological immortality, the decease of mysticism should be eradicated.

Not only that! we have to deal with a government control ethics commitee. Imagine that?. They don't let scientist do stem research, they don't let scientist create a human clone, there is many variants of mysticism and one of them is government!!.

anyhow interesting for the discussion check this out!:

http://www.supercivilization.com/forum/message/7631/

The above is from a Neo-Tech forum, however it gives you a little of the concept "biological immortality" which is the first place I've ever seen such a concept was in Neo-Tech literature.

Neo-Tech has removed its thousands of pages of text from the net, do to theft of its concepts, however you may still contact the company for its books.

http://www.neo-tech.com/index.php

A scientist view of human cloning:

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:Z6Me2B68XNoJ:mkuijsten.tripod.com/pdf/cloning.pdf+biological+immortality&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

This all the time I've got for now.

Cya

Godless.

Originally posted by BigBlueHead
I find that a little hopeful, if you don't mind my saying so...

People used to think that computers would eventually become self-aware and take over the world if we built them big and complex enough... turns out we're not that lucky. It may take more than time to achieve that steady increase in smarts.
:)
Time is everything.
It was reported that the Irish playwrit, B. Shaw once said: "Humans will never achieve anything important unless their average age becomes 300 years"!
They just don't have enough time...............
:D

Originally posted by BigBlueHead
Do we evolve spiritually?

Yes we do, but we are not doing a very good job, we haven't really evolved much for thousands of years, because we had created a belief system that had trapped us. That is we belief we are separated from god, therefore we think we as humans are separated from eachother. We believe we have not enough, money, food, love, ect, therefore we constantly need more. We believe a life with fear, therefore even when we have all the food, money etc we need, we wanted more, because we fears one day we might loose them, also we wouldn't share them with others, because we believe in doing so we will have less.

Originally posted by Medicine Woman
We are already as spiritually evolved as we need to be. Our spirit has been the same for all eternity. Some may call this spirit "God." I do. So our spirit doesn't need to actually "evolve." What will occur is the human race will receive the revelation (knowing-"Gnosis") that we are truly One with God in Spirit and Flesh.

I are not as spiritually evolved as we need to be, just look around you. If we are already spiritually evolved as much as we can be, how come we are still killing eachother? But I do agree with you that our spirit has been the same for all eternity, but when spirit enters a body, it's level of awareness is not the same. The purpose of life is for the spirit ie god to actually experience itself.
As always, some people will evolve faster than others. Therefore, these people will receive the "knowing" before those who are less evolved.
Some people who are evovling faster because they give an open mind for new things, others when new things, ideas pop up, they dismiss them completely as they don't want their old way of life to change. But people do not receive the "knowing" at different times, but these knowings are send to every one of us all the time, it just whether we listen or not.

Life is eternal. Life goes on after we die, our body is a tool for us to experience different things, and hence creating us anew through our experience. There is no point to live forever, when what we are here to seek to experience is done, we choose to leave our body, but not to end life, but experience life in a different way. Many people fear death, but death actually gives us enormous freedom, our body is restricing, but spirits, ie life after death knows no limits. Death is not ending, but a beginning.

I think it is a less successful line of reason to think that God or Spirit does not evolve. The universe is constantly evolving therefore so is God. The notion that God is fully evolved is in my view a very weakly based belief, with out any evidence to support it.

If the universe evolves for eternity then so to does God.

If the universe fails to be eternal then so to does God fail to be eternal.

Another point that may be of some amusement an interest.

If a man lives for 1000 years and then dies is he immortal or mortal?

If a man lives for a million years and then dies is he immortal or mortal.

The view point is based on the premise that death can never be defeated and only postponed possibly indefinitely but that is only proved by eating the pudding so to speak and the pudding may never end.

according to the bible, god lived before the universe, and could easily live after it (wouldn't he actually get really, really bored)

There is only so much that science can do to lengthen lifestyle. Eventually, the part of the brain that holds your personality will wear out, it could be replaced, but it wouldn't be you, it would be someone else. You cant teach an old dog new tricks. Maybe eventually we would just give up ANY desire to learn anything. If a person got thrown into a star, science couldn't really do much.

There is only so much that science can do to lengthen lifestyle. Eventually, the part of the brain that holds your personality will wear out, it could be replaced, but it wouldn't be you, it would be someone else. You cant teach an old dog new tricks. Maybe eventually we would just give up ANY desire to learn anything. If a person got thrown into a star, science couldn't really do much.

your big assumption is that enlonging life without the brain being able to funtion, is it true?

Hevene
"Life is eternal. Life goes on after we die, our body is a tool for us to experience different things, and hence creating us anew through our experience. There is no point to live forever, when what we are here to seek to experience is done, we choose to leave our body, but not to end life, but experience life in a different way. Many people fear death, but death actually gives us enormous freedom, our body is restricing, but spirits, ie life after death knows no limits. Death is not ending, but a beginning." nice, reasuring idea, hope it's right

yinyin, i assue that even if science can help our body, eventually the mind would go

yinyin, i assue that even if science can help our body, eventually the mind would go
any fact? or just a guess?

according to the bible, god lived before the universe, and could easily live after it (wouldn't he actually get really, really bored)

There is only so much that science can do to lengthen lifestyle. Eventually, the part of the brain that holds your personality will wear out, it could be replaced, but it wouldn't be you, it would be someone else. You cant teach an old dog new tricks. Maybe eventually we would just give up ANY desire to learn anything. If a person got thrown into a star, science couldn't really do much.
----------
M*W: You might be surprised what science has done AND can do to lengthen our lives. People are living longer. Scientists have found ways and means to prolong life. There are so many new treatments that can totally wipe out disease. Science is learning that diseases don't just start in old people. The progenitors are there at birth! Take heart disease, for example, it doesn't just start with the first heart attack. Studies were done on young soldiers who died as a result of car wrecks or other accidental deaths. Even in their 20s, autopsies proved that these young men who had never had a complaint or diagnosis of heart disease, had active atherosclerosis which probably would have resulted in a heart attack say in their 50s. Scientists are discovering that heart disease may be caused by inflammatory (autoimmune) causes that start in childhood or pregentially. Are our bodies programmed to self-destruct? I think so. As we see diseases understood and cured, we will definitely see longevity in the human race.

Let us imagine that god has decided only those who have spiritually and intellegently upgraded himself to a certain level will be able to understand the way to eternity, like the different between diamonds and carbons.

right on.
those who the Gods see as wise and intelligent (not to mention spiritual) will move up in the cycle of life. these few will begin working for the Gods, in helping send messages and signs to all of the people who are still living on earth.

those who arent fit are simply returned to the earth in some form or another (aka reincarnation) and given a second chance.

this new life for the enlightened souls might be immortal, but i believe it isnt.
these raised spirits begin a new life in the another world, the world that the Gods walk about and converse and create galaxies(atoms,molecules,elements) in.

They too grow old and in the end can raise to the levels of Gods. But i think its not that simple. I see there is many stages to move up before actually reaching immortal God Status. You have messengers, watchers, creators, angels, and who knows what else- all living in the complex world of the afterlife- it is quite similar to our own world except it is free of the blind unintelligence found rampid here on earth. But this is not to say raised spirits are all 100% pure good - some do in fact turn Bad even in the higher realms (lucifer for example) and even though the Gods try to select only pure souls they cannot account for one's free will.

so, as for the topic, i dont think we will acheive immortality here on earth, this physical world simply could not support it. although we will become increasingly effecient in stopping death, immortality lies within our minds(souls) only.

right on.
those who the Gods see as wise and intelligent (not to mention spiritual) will move up in the cycle of life. these few will begin working for the Gods, in helping send messages and signs to all of the people who are still living on earth.

those who arent fit are simply returned to the earth in some form or another (aka reincarnation) and given a second chance.

this new life for the enlightened souls might be immortal, but i believe it isnt.
these raised spirits begin a new life in the another world, the world that the Gods walk about and converse and create galaxies(atoms,molecules,elements) in.

They too grow old and in the end can raise to the levels of Gods. But i think its not that simple. I see there is many stages to move up before actually reaching immortal God Status. You have messengers, watchers, creators, angels, and who knows what else- all living in the complex world of the afterlife- it is quite similar to our own world except it is free of the blind unintelligence found rampid here on earth. But this is not to say raised spirits are all 100% pure good - some do in fact turn Bad even in the higher realms (lucifer for example) and even though the Gods try to select only pure souls they cannot account for one's free will.

so, as for the topic, i dont think we will acheive immortality here on earth, this physical world simply could not support it. although we will become increasingly effecient in stopping death, immortality lies within our minds(souls) only.
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M*W: So, where will humanity achieve wholeness if not on Earth?

How much smarter is a ten year-old dog than a five year-old dog?
The question is; is the 10 year old dog smarter than he was 5 years ago? and if senility hasn't hit he most definately will be.

on the other hand, the more time it spends with humans the more it gets dumb. within 5 years it would considerably loose its smartness. on second thought, it depends on how dumb the human masters of the dog are. but some exceptionally smart dogs would become smarter with time learning how to fool around with dumb humans. but some loyal dogs would go down with their human counterparts. the biggest disaster in dog-history is the time when they made friendship with humans. i seriously doubt humans swapped intelligence with dogs. what you think ?

i seriously doubt humans swapped intelligence with dogs. what you think ?
that depends on how you define the word"swap".

yinyanwang "any fact? or just a guess?" just a guess, but i think its a pretty accurate one

MW science can do a lot. i believe it could make people live to a billion years eventually with no problem, but i dont think it could last eternity

if you replace a persons arm with a prosthetic arm, is it still the same person, what if all their limbs are replaced? what about the heart? the brain?

If we take the actions a theistic God has to perform to be recognised as God

1: Designing Life
2: Creating a universe

Then man is not too far from becoming God:

1: DNA manipulation; cloning; Artificial Intelligence;
2: Add too much exotic matter to a wormhole and it'll explode and expand at the speed of light to create a new universe.

Of course it would wipe us out, but if intelligent life arises in the new universe, they could wonder aimlessly about God(us) I wonder if this is what Nietzshe meant when he said "God is dead" ;)

yinyanwang "any fact? or just a guess?" just a guess, but i think its a pretty accurate one

how do we know?

[QUOTE=alain]

MW science can do a lot. i believe it could make people live to a billion years eventually with no problem, but i dont think it could last eternity

if you replace a persons arm with a prosthetic arm, is it still the same person, what if all their limbs are replaced? what about the heart? the brain?
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M*W: They would STILL be the same person. Hearts have been transplanted, and they're still the same person. What if stem cells were transplanted into the heart. The damaged tissue would grow into the SAME heart. If stem cells were transplanted into neuronal tissue, it would still be the SAME brain. If a whole brain is transplanted, I believe it would still be the SAME person, but I really don't know for sure. The only thing that matters is the person is alive. Whatever the person does to maintain health and vitality in life heals the whole of humanity. Stem cells are the fountain of youth. We don't need embryonic stem cells, we just need autologous bone marrow to heal the body. Now that mankind is able to use oneself to heal oneself, it sort of makes us immortal, doesn't it?

If we assume a cyclic universe exercising an infinite cycles then indeed we are cyclically immortal.Existing in every conceivable form.

If we assume a cyclic universe exercising an infinite cycles then indeed we are cyclically immortal.Existing in every conceivable form.
How do you relate a cyclic universe with human existtance?

"How do you relate a cyclic universe with human existtance?"


If we consider this universe as one of many universes and the cycle continues ad infinitum then we can speculate that some universes will have no life others some life. The ones that have life some will have low intelligent life and others high intelligent life. The universes that have intelligent life sometimes will have human like beings.

Now the odds of having exactly the same type of beings is maybe a billion to one but who cares? If the universe has enough oscillations then any possibility is possible.

Did you ever hear the story about an infinite number of monkeys pounding on an infinite number of typewriters would eventually reproduce all of shakespeare's works infinite times? Well in a infinitely cyclic universe we will exist an infinite times.

Infinity is a longgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg time.

No, don't be stupid. A god is someone who is worshipped. There have been many, MANY, gods through history that died... like Julius Caesar. He WAS a god because he was worshipped as one, and called one. And he died, didn't he?

No, don't be stupid. A god is someone who is worshipped. There have been many, MANY, gods through history that died... like Julius Caesar. He WAS a god because he was worshipped as one, and called one. And he died, didn't he?

Just like jesus right? he got nailed to the cross and then died. However supposedly he came back? a whole faith is relied on that. and "faith" is just relying on someone elses' assertions of the event. fact is we don't know for sure he *jesus* rose from the tomb.

I think therefore I'm god, I'm worshiped by every animal I own and feed, I give them shelter, and I provide them with a healthy diet, I love them and they love me. My dogs and my cats are cool, they even get along. **comments from an atheist girl friend of mine**

Just like jesus right? he got nailed to the cross and then died. However supposedly he came back? a whole faith is relied on that. and "faith" is just relying on someone elses' assertions of the event. fact is we don't know for sure he *jesus* rose from the tomb.

I think therefore I'm god, I'm worshiped by every animal I own and feed, I give them shelter, and I provide them with a healthy diet, I love them and they love me. My dogs and my cats are cool, they even get along. **comments from an atheist girl friend of mine**

Well godless, actually yeah that would mean u r a god to the animals... becuz u provide everything to them so what else are they going to think? but as for people its different... the faith does rely on jesus but he's not a "god" as such because people worshipped the Christian God because he told them to, they didn't worship Jesus as such... but you can see what I mean, cant you?

"How do you relate a cyclic universe with human existtance?"


If we consider this universe as one of many universes and the cycle continues ad infinitum then we can speculate that some universes will have no life others some life. The ones that have life some will have low intelligent life and others high intelligent life. The universes that have intelligent life sometimes will have human like beings.

Now the odds of having exactly the same type of beings is maybe a billion to one but who cares? If the universe has enough oscillations then any possibility is possible.

Did you ever hear the story about an infinite number of monkeys pounding on an infinite number of typewriters would eventually reproduce all of shakespeare's works infinite times? Well in a infinitely cyclic universe we will exist an infinite times.

Infinity is a longgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg time.

the universe dose not have to cycle with the same life each time.

yinyin - "how do we know?" we cant, as we havent seen anyone live to infinity, all we can use is logic or faith. Logic seems to tell me that the mind would go eventually. (i know that didnt really answer the question)

"Did you ever hear the story about an infinite number of monkeys pounding on an infinite number of typewriters would eventually reproduce all of shakespeare's works infinite times? Well in a infinitely cyclic universe we will exist an infinite times"
that sholud be changed to "instantaneously reproduce shakespeares work"
PS, i think, judging by the quality of shakespere, a monkey did write it.

"the universe dose not have to cycle with the same life each time." No, but it will eventually, thats the thing, as long as its not literally impossible

In short the definition of "god" is not something that lives forever. How do you know something's going to live forever? You'd spend your whole life seeing if they died, and if they didn't you'd die first. People say that a dog cant live forever, but you wouldn't know that unless it died before you did. So in theory there could be a dog that is almighty god right now.

"Did you ever hear the story about an infinite number of monkeys pounding on an infinite number of typewriters would eventually reproduce all of shakespeare's works infinite times? Well in a infinitely cyclic universe we will exist an infinite times"
that sholud be changed to "instantaneously reproduce shakespeares work"
PS, i think, judging by the quality of shakespere, a monkey did write it.


Are you sure?