View Full Version : Do electromagnetic waves ever stop,dissipate where they cease to exist forever?


Gravage
09-21-05, 03:57 AM
1.For example, my computer's wireless network card and the wireless receiver connected to my other computer both have a maximum distance of 1 mile. This means that if I moved the computers more than one mile apart from each other, I would not be able to send a file from one computer to another. However, if I had a stronger receiver on my other computer, would I be able to increase the distance the computers could be apart, or would the radio wave transmitted by my computer completely disappear after one mile?
Everything should have limits,even radio-waves...

So,I was wondering, is there a limit on how far radio waves can travel in OUTER SPACE OR ON OUR PLANET EARTH? Is there ever a point where a radio wave signal disappears and cancels completely, and can't be recovered no matter how powerful the receiver is?
Why radio-waves can't be destroyed?Is it because of magnetic fields that "keep" integrity of radio-waves(that's why they're called electromagentic waves,since they both have electrical charges/fields and magnetic fields,so if there are no magnetic fields the integrity of the radio-wave and infomration inside of it(inside of the radio-wave) would dissipate,get destroyed without an possibility of coming back?
How quasars send extremely powerful radio-waves 12 billion light years away,on which frequency and how do quasars do it?Is it because quasars are extremely powerful mediums for sending radio-waves?How are magnetic fields supported(what gives the energy to magnetic fields) all the time so the information in the radio signal doesn't get destroyed?
Does anyone knows a website which explains that in details?
Big thanks!

Gravage
09-21-05, 03:58 AM
And waht about all other forms of electromagnetic radiatio,do the have limits,like radio-waves or not?

kenworth
09-21-05, 07:26 AM
in a vacuum they would not dissapate,the only way a electromagnetic wave is stopped is if it absorbed.

kenworth
09-21-05, 07:43 AM
in a vacuum they would not dissapate,the only way a electromagnetic wave is stopped is if it absorbed.

blobrana
09-21-05, 08:23 AM
in a vacuum they would not dissapate,the only way a electromagnetic wave is stopped is if it absorbed.

Yeah,
in space - And perhaps the case when dealing with time...

It is possible that a spherical wave in the scalar potential propagates backwards and forwards in the temporal dimension.

In the case of the forward waves they continue forever (unless as was said they are absorbed).

So a simple solution is to move your WiFi transmitter to sometime in the past.

Gravage
09-26-05, 05:41 AM
in a vacuum they would not dissapate,the only way a electromagnetic wave is stopped is if it absorbed.

Actually,they should dissipate,but this really depends on how powerful madium is.If it's powerful as quasar,than it wouldn't dissipate that easily,but if it's like our radio-messages that we send to space sooner or later,it would dissipate much before.That's my opnion.Nothing lasts forever,not even radio-waves.

orcot
09-26-05, 08:50 AM
I tought they disapeared in the back ground noice of the universe rather quicly. But if the universe was empty, it would only dissapear afther a infinite amound of time.

kenworth
09-26-05, 12:36 PM
Actually,they should dissipate,but this really depends on how powerful madium is.If it's powerful as quasar,than it wouldn't dissipate that easily,but if it's like our radio-messages that we send to space sooner or later,it would dissipate much before.That's my opnion.Nothing lasts forever,not even radio-waves.

but something would have to absorbing them.

orcot
09-27-05, 06:54 AM
all energy it the universe stays preserved it's impossible to create or to destroy energy (longer then a plack time) so the best you can do is to stretch it out over a infinite distance.

jackamo
09-27-05, 09:13 AM
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you." I been sayin' that shit for years.

Solve
09-27-05, 09:14 AM
I'll eat your head....

jackamo
09-27-05, 09:23 AM
not if i gorge on your rotting corpse first after ripping of your head with a spoon

Solve
09-27-05, 09:25 AM
I'll fionger your shnizzle you litte faget! Yeehahaha

orcot
09-27-05, 12:16 PM
did I miss something :bugeye:

Billy T
09-27-05, 02:07 PM
I can not resist answering this thread's title question with:

Yes, last time I looked. :eek: ;) :o

weed_eater_guy
09-27-05, 09:28 PM
examine the equation y=1/x. As x increases (we'll say it's distance), y decreases (we'll say that's the beam's energy), but even if x is trillions of light years, y is never absolutely zero. Even if it hits a medium and 99.99999999% of the energy is absorbed, there's still 0.00000001% leftover, to discipate and traverse forever into other objects and distance into the void of eternity.

Pete
09-27-05, 09:50 PM
Nothing lasts forever
Interesting postulate. Does it have experimental support?

Gravage
09-28-05, 05:13 AM
all energy it the universe stays preserved it's impossible to create or to destroy energy (longer then a plack time) so the best you can do is to stretch it out over a infinite distance.

No,it gets absorbed to an particle,or particles,if it doesn't get destroyed(an it doesn't because it's absorbed into particles,magnetic fields,or electromagnetic fields) is that integrity of the wave is destroyed,which means the integrity/structure of an signal is destroyed,too,which means further means signal is dispersed and destroyed.But it doesn't mean energy is destroyed,since waves in the sea also dissapear,but the energy remains.

Gravage
09-28-05, 05:17 AM
examine the equation y=1/x. As x increases (we'll say it's distance), y decreases (we'll say that's the beam's energy), but even if x is trillions of light years, y is never absolutely zero. Even if it hits a medium and 99.99999999% of the energy is absorbed, there's still 0.00000001% leftover, to discipate and traverse forever into other objects and distance into the void of eternity.

That's only on paper with equations,but in reality is another thing.What's the point of making equations if they're not comparable with reality?

one_raven
09-29-05, 04:50 AM
interference

blobrana
09-29-05, 06:07 AM
That's only on paper with equations,but in reality is another thing.What's the point of making equations if they're not comparable with reality?

The principle that things keep moving forever in straight lines unless acted upon by something else is wrong?

As Richard Feynman once said “If it does not fit with observations then it is wrong”…


In this case, the real life application of that principle <b>is</b> `comparable`.

MetaKron
09-29-05, 09:45 AM
Wave interference does not create or destroy energy. It creates deeper troughs but puts the energy into higher peaks.

802 type wireless ethernet links can work over more than 6 miles with a parabolic antenna on the subscriber computer and an omnidirectional antenna on distribution side. I've seen it done.

An interesting thing is that the further electromagnetic radiation goes the further it has to go to lose the same percentage of signal strength. A signal loses about 172 decibels from the Earth to the Moon, and another 172 coming back depending on the kind of reflector. That's 344 decibels down from the one meter distance. The same signal loses 260 decibels traveling one light year. From one light year to one billion light years the loss is 180 decibels, for a total of 440 decibels lost. From there to a hundred billion lightyears is another 20 decibels down. For any distance that we think even might exist, a readable signal still exists. We have radar installations that can distinguish large surface features on the moons of Saturn.

Gravage
09-30-05, 05:07 AM
Wave interference does not create or destroy energy. It creates deeper troughs but puts the energy into higher peaks.

802 type wireless ethernet links can work over more than 6 miles with a parabolic antenna on the subscriber computer and an omnidirectional antenna on distribution side. I've seen it done.

An interesting thing is that the further electromagnetic radiation goes the further it has to go to lose the same percentage of signal strength. A signal loses about 172 decibels from the Earth to the Moon, and another 172 coming back depending on the kind of reflector. That's 344 decibels down from the one meter distance. The same signal loses 260 decibels traveling one light year. From one light year to one billion light years the loss is 180 decibels, for a total of 440 decibels lost. From there to a hundred billion lightyears is another 20 decibels down. For any distance that we think even might exist, a readable signal still exists. We have radar installations that can distinguish large surface features on the moons of Saturn.

So,what does it mean,MetaKron?
Does it mean that signal strength and the radio-wave strength can lost,dissipated,destroyed(call it whatever you want)?
Let's suppose this:Seti sends message to aliens,but how do we know that signal or radio-wave strength will get to the aliens?
I mean quasars are extremely powerful mediums,so they can send radio-waves at enormous distances without losing signal strength?
So,what do you think MetaKron,can the signal strength be weak enough that it simply get destroyed,dissipated forever?

RoyLennigan
09-30-05, 05:03 PM
So,what does it mean,MetaKron?
Does it mean that signal strength and the radio-wave strength can lost,dissipated,destroyed(call it whatever you want)?
Let's suppose this:Seti sends message to aliens,but how do we know that signal or radio-wave strength will get to the aliens?
I mean quasars are extremely powerful mediums,so they can send radio-waves at enormous distances without losing signal strength?
So,what do you think MetaKron,can the signal strength be weak enough that it simply get destroyed,dissipated forever?

no it cannot be destroyed, but it will weaken over distance as he was saying, and it can also be deflected by matter in the way.

quasars lose signal strength too, at the same rate any other radiation loses strength, what makes you think they are any different?

and no, the signal strength decreases at an exponential rate, so it will infinitely decrease, but never reach zero.

Gravage
10-03-05, 07:34 AM
no it cannot be destroyed, but it will weaken over distance as he was saying, and it can also be deflected by matter in the way.

quasars lose signal strength too, at the same rate any other radiation loses strength, what makes you think they are any different?

and no, the signal strength decreases at an exponential rate, so it will infinitely decrease, but never reach zero.

What makes you think energy is undestroyable,even energy vibrates.
Also,waves sooner or later should lose their energy after some time,much like your car loses gas,and once it will stop,you need to re-fuel to start driving again,the same goes with radio-waves...

Gravage
10-03-05, 07:38 AM
What makes you think energy is undestroyable,even energy vibrates.
Also,waves sooner or later should lose their energy after some time,much like your car loses gas,and once it will stop,you need to re-fuel to start driving again,the same goes with radio-waves...

Also,when you have 2 approaching waves one opposite of the other,and let's suppose these 2 upcoming waves have exact quantity of energy,what do you think will happen,they would annihilate each other,and there would be no energy left of their collide.

RoyLennigan
10-03-05, 10:34 AM
What makes you think energy is undestroyable,even energy vibrates.
uh... the law of conservation of energy. ever hear of it? apparently not.

Also,waves sooner or later should lose their energy after some time,much like your car loses gas,and once it will stop,you need to re-fuel to start driving again,the same goes with radio-waves...
energy is not lost, it is just deflected by particles in space like a mirror deflects light. but no matter what, some of that energy will keep travelling in the original direction, so no, it is not like the gas in your car.


Also,when you have 2 approaching waves one opposite of the other,and let's suppose these 2 upcoming waves have exact quantity of energy,what do you think will happen,they would annihilate each other,and there would be no energy left of their collide.
the two waves deflect each other and the particles go flying off in different directions. with a direct hit between two particles, they will break down into other particles. search for information on particle colliders to confirm this.

Gravage
10-04-05, 02:49 AM
uh... the law of conservation of energy. ever hear of it? apparently not.

energy is not lost, it is just deflected by particles in space like a mirror deflects light. but no matter what, some of that energy will keep travelling in the original direction, so no, it is not like the gas in your car.


the two waves deflect each other and the particles go flying off in different directions. with a direct hit between two particles, they will break down into other particles. search for information on particle colliders to confirm this.

Oh,thanks for the help!
And yes I know that conservation of energy.I was just kidding.Also,over these last 200 years in any kind of experiments that was done scientists couldn't destroy and recreate energy.

CANGAS
10-10-05, 09:45 AM
Maybe it will. And maybe it won't. Why do you want to know? We find your curiosity very interesting. There is no empirical evidence that the universe is limited or unlimited. There is no theoretical basis, according to current mainstream physics ideology, to extrapolate that an unrestricted photon ( one which never becomes absorbed into a lonely electron or other particle ) would ever vanish.

Starman
10-10-05, 11:57 AM
http://www.stardrivedevice.com/power_plant.html?source=overture#over-unity&OVRAW=overunity&OVKEY=over%20unity&OVMTC=standard

Therein hangs the problem. Experimentally we know that (i) the input energy to the source charge must be in virtual state form, and (ii) when we produce a charge suddenly, the fields and potentials are created at light speed outward in all directions. Once they reach a distant point and pass beyond, the fields and potentials and their intensities at that point are also continuously maintained thereafter, showing that a continuous emission of real energy from the source charge is occurring so that the static fields are continuously replenished in place—precisely like Van Flandern’s waterfall analogy {8}.

http://www.cheniere.org/techpapers/vanflandern.htm

MetaKron
10-10-05, 12:38 PM
So,what does it mean,MetaKron?
Does it mean that signal strength and the radio-wave strength can lost,dissipated,destroyed(call it whatever you want)?
Let's suppose this:Seti sends message to aliens,but how do we know that signal or radio-wave strength will get to the aliens?
I mean quasars are extremely powerful mediums,so they can send radio-waves at enormous distances without losing signal strength?
So,what do you think MetaKron,can the signal strength be weak enough that it simply get destroyed,dissipated forever?

The language you use is imprecise, but there is a certain amount of dust and gas between here and there, wherever there is. Some of the signal can be absorbed, but widely spaced gas and dust is extremely poor at absorbing radio signals. If you are thinking of extreme distances like billions of light years, it would do you some good to look up the basics about signal strength and radio astronomy. We know that a signal will reach a given area because we can estimate its strength with great precision. Radio astronomy has given us an idea of how much signal is lost. We already know that radiotelescopes can "see" through dust clouds that scatter light.

The energy of a signal cannot be destroyed, but it can be absorbed or scattered. If you send a laser signal, it's not going to make it through any dusty regions. Millimeter waves will.

Gravage
10-11-05, 04:20 AM
Maybe it will. And maybe it won't. Why do you want to know? We find your curiosity very interesting. There is no empirical evidence that the universe is limited or unlimited. There is no theoretical basis, according to current mainstream physics ideology, to extrapolate that an unrestricted photon ( one which never becomes absorbed into a lonely electron or other particle ) would ever vanish.

I think energy wouldn't be destroyed even in any other universe with different laws of physics since how could this other universe,with different laws of physics,exist without the energy.The would mean that energy is truly undestroyable since every universe would need energy for "staying alive".I don't think energy could be destroyed even if this universe isn't a closed system.
Hmmm...

Gravage
10-11-05, 04:52 AM
The language you use is imprecise, but there is a certain amount of dust and gas between here and there, wherever there is. Some of the signal can be absorbed, but widely spaced gas and dust is extremely poor at absorbing radio signals. If you are thinking of extreme distances like billions of light years, it would do you some good to look up the basics about signal strength and radio astronomy. We know that a signal will reach a given area because we can estimate its strength with great precision. Radio astronomy has given us an idea of how much signal is lost. We already know that radiotelescopes can "see" through dust clouds that scatter light.

The energy of a signal cannot be destroyed, but it can be absorbed or scattered. If you send a laser signal, it's not going to make it through any dusty regions. Millimeter waves will.


Yes, and this is what I've been trying to ask you:Could the signal's integrity,after being completely scattered billions of miles away lose the information it carries(because signal loses magnetic field which contains and supports information's integrity-if information loses that integrity;and that happens when there is no magnetic field-example much like an picture and sound is stored on the magnetic field of the video-tape or television)?

What than happens with the information who was in that electromagnetic wave-it doesn't exist anymore or it gets absorbed into other electromagnetic field which "saves" the integrity of the information inside,or information truly doesn't exist anymore(when I say information,I mean sound,pictures,music that are oftenly sent to space)?
I wonder if scientists know the answer on this question?
Hmmm...
Does anyone knows any website which could help me to understand this thoroughly?
Thanks for your patience!