Arguing this on other forum and would like to know your responses.

By my understanding as a Christian, I believe the eternal Father does not create gays. No one was born gay. For it is written,

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures"

So you see, do gay people DESERVE hell because they chose such a thing, or are they going to hell BECAUSE the Father has DULY cursed them so. Or are they in fact, pilgrims passing into Zion?


P.S. Hurray, my first post! Please respond :)

I'm to assume that this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/orissa/article/0,2763,195494,00.html) was a gift from whom exactly?

It killed off hundreds of Indians. Do you think they were all Christians?

If they weren't all Christians, did the cyclone not kill them prematurely, before they could hear 'the word' and be 'saved'?

Therefore, did they not got to Hell or at least Purgatory on account of a cyclone?

Who caused the cyclone?
Couldn't have been man; it was an event of nature!
Maybe it was the Devil?
Well, the Devil is God's creation, so God must be held ultimately responsible.

God sent those people to Hell... or at least Purgatory.



What makes you think he wouldn't make somebody gay, just to see'em get the free-ride to the Pit along with all those poor, unconverted Indians?

By my understanding as a Christian, I believe the eternal Father does not create gays. No one was born gay. For it is written,

People are born with certain predisposition to certain sins. For instance, acholics often have predisposition to substance abuse.


"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures"

I don't see how this statement is supporting your argument. Mankind after the fall is left with the lack of grace, not caused by God but by sin.


So you see, do gay people DESERVE hell because they chose such a thing, or are they going to hell BECAUSE the Father has DULY cursed them so. Or are they in fact, pilgrims passing into Zion?

It's obvious that if we treat our body as an idol and do not repent, then we will surely go to hell. But many gays were abused when they were children or suffer psychological problems. In light of this, the Old Testament's condemnation of homosexual act is only stating that the homosexual act is wrong.

Hell doesn't exist so they can't be sent there

Are you saying you refuse to believe in it because you can't see it, you won't see it or there's no such thing as the "Bottomless Pit"?

People are born with certain predisposition to certain sins. For instance, acholics often have predisposition to substance abuse.

True, I agree with your statement. But that is NOT the only factor contributing to such "disposition".

It's obvious that if we treat our body as an idol and do not repent, then we will surely go to hell. But many gays were abused when they were children or suffer psychological problems. In light of this, the Old Testament's condemnation of homosexual act is only stating that the homosexual act is wrong.

Are you suggesting neither gays nor God is responsible for their current, shall we call it, condition? And what do you mean by "only"?

I know Christians have a real aversion to looking inside themselves for answers, but perhaps this might help.

Regarding the inherently "sinful" act of homosexual sex --

SouthStar, just a couple questions.

1. Could someone force you to change what sparks sexual attraction in you? And I don't mean, could someone hold a gun to your head and force you to have homosexual sex, but rather, could someone coerce you into actually finding someone of the same sex sexually attractive?

2. If your answer to #1 is yes, then you might ask yourself, why would roughly 10 percent of the population (consistently) consciously choose a sexual orientation that will likely result in increased schoolyard taunting, societal/religious condemnation, a strained relationship with one's family, and, if Christian, an eternity of hellfire?

3. If your answer to #1 is no, then the question arises, if you feel you cannot change your sexual orientation at will, then how can you assume others can?

Josh

It's just a ride. - Bill Hicks

First let me answer no.

Secondly, let me inform you FIRSTLY that we are ALL inclined to do "things which are not fitting."

True Christianity DOES NOT call for ANYONE to give up their sexual orientation before coming to Christ. Saying otherwise would be to spit in the face of the Son and say you don't need him to receive eternal salvation. Therefore your question is SLIGHTLY misguided, I have NOT stated that "others can", I have not asked for others to change, I will NOT ask for others to change.

That invalidates being a Christian, which requires total dependence on the sovereignty of the Father. Gays DO NOT have to be straight to "approach", "become" Christians in a sense that God already HAS the power to change them.

Unfortunately, there is an abundant interpretation that Christiandom holds homosexuality to be much worse than a lying tongue or a stubborn child, this may or may not be true. The point is.. all sinners are equally putrid in comparison to ABSOLUTE holiness.

I'll finalize my point sometime tomorrow, Josh, right now I have to get some sleep. Thanks for talking everyone, hurrah once again on my first post :D

Yo Okinrus,

Alcoholism is a progressive disease like diabetes. Is a diabetic sinful?

Allcare.

Alcoholism is a progressive disease like diabetes. Is a diabetic sinful?

No, because the diabetic usually does not have control over their diabetes. But being a diabetic and not taking care of oneself might be construed as being sinful. Nevertheless, the key reason why being an alcoholic and not being treated is sinful is because the person treats alcholol as if it is more important than God, family and friends.

So you see, do gay people DESERVE hell because they chose such a thing, or are they going to hell BECAUSE the Father has DULY cursed them so. Or are they in fact, pilgrims passing into Zion?


Do presumptuous asse* narrow minded christians DESERVE hell because they choose to be that way, or are they going to hell BECAUSE the Father has DULY cursed them so?

PS
Congratulations on your first post

Okin,

No, because the diabetic usually does not have control over their diabetes.

Pehaps I'm wrong, but I was always under the impression an alcoholic does not have control over alcohol.

Whether or not they do/should go to hell is entirely up to God. There is no point in discussing it because A. we have no control over it and B. Who the hell are we to question His will and judgment?

Live and let live and love your fellow man as you wish to be loved by God.

Nature makes all kinds of mistakes when it comes to procreation. There's twins, mongoloids, infants with all kinds of deformities. Some people are born with genes that protect them from heart disease others have genes that pre-dispose them to heart disease. Some people are smart some arent.

Simply put nature isnt perfect, it makes all types of errors to DNA. Some "errors" are benefecial such as the people with the heart protection gene. It's possible for some males to have some hormonal variation that modifys one's behavior to appear as feminine, and the same applies to females.

One good test of the theory is to observe the animal world such as the ape world where homosexuality is practiced. Another observation has been made with the study of twins. If one twin is gay there's a high chance the other twin is gay.

I had a dog that I swear was gay, every time it saw another male dog it would try to give the other dog a BJ.

What else can I say to convince you of natures follies?

Live and let live and love your fellow man as you wish to be loved by God.
so God is male??
wouldnt that make every man worshiping/loving God gay?or at least having gay thoughts? :eek:
makes one wonder why so many priests turn homo,eh?

By my understanding as a Christian, I believe the eternal Father does not create gays. No one was born gay. For it is written,

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures"

So you see, do gay people DESERVE hell because they chose such a thing,
they didnt choose nothing,they were born that way.

if you believe God created all than He is the one to blame,can't dispute that can you? :p
--------------------------------------------------------------------
and they can tell me what to do with my dick when they pry it off my cold dead hands :D

I'm not sure why people keep using the word homosexuality to mean sin. At no point in the bible is the word homosexuality or preference for the same sex ever mentioned in the bible. The extent of this is that while lust and the act are sinful, there's no sin being attracted to the other sex.

Our predisposition to sin is caused by the fall of Adam. The lack of grace creates a void that if not completed with Love creates a void that ultimately destroys one's soul. This void along with demons are what causes mankind to sin.


Pehaps I'm wrong, but I was always under the impression an alcoholic does not have control over alcohol.

An alcoholic does not have full control. At some point he or she may not have any free will in the matter of their addiction. However, by then they may still be commiting a sin by not reaching out for help.

if you believe God created all than He is the one to blame,can't dispute that can you? :p


Some people say God, being the eternal Father, is the Author of sin. Being the Author of sin would invalidate the concept of free will and perhaps that makes such a statement erroneous to Christians.

If God MAKES you sin, which I'm not actually clear on, since being GOD, He can do whatever He pleases but since we come presuming He HATES sin, can we say that He CREATED something just so He can hate it?

--------------------------------------


Do presumptuous asse* narrow minded christians DESERVE hell because they choose to be that way, or are they going to hell BECAUSE the Father has DULY cursed them so?

Congratulations on the introspective, intelligent retort heart, and why, thank you. :)

Okin,



Pehaps I'm wrong, but I was always under the impression an alcoholic does not have control over alcohol.



of course not, it just happens to magically appear in their liver and their health apparently begins to suffer for no reason. I'm sure no alcoholic ever had a chance of saying no to that beer can, not ALL the familial help and communities out there could give him/her "control over the alcohol."

Needless to say, a fool and his money are soon parted. ;)

of course not, it just happens to magically appear in their liver and their health apparently begins to suffer for no reason. I'm sure no alcoholic ever had a chance of saying no to that beer can, not ALL the familial help and communities out there could give him/her "control over the alcohol."

Needless to say, a fool and his money are soon parted. ;)

you obviously dont know much about alcoholism or anyone who was/is an alcoholic. you are terribly naive

"you are terribly naive"

It's so shameful to see such rampant ignorance. Can you not tell I was being sarcastic in my writing? If not look again.

okinrus:

But many gays were abused when they were children or suffer psychological problems.

I am wondering:

1. How many gay people do you know personally?
2. How many of those would you say have psychological problems?
3. How many were abused when they were children?

Let me give you my answers to the same question:

1. Too many to work out an exact number.
2. None. Well, perhaps one or two, but such problems are certainly no more prevalent than in the heterosexual population, as far as I can tell.
3. None.

Southstar:

I have some questions for you, too.

How many gay people do you know personally?

By my understanding as a Christian, I believe the eternal Father does not create gays. No one was born gay. For it is written,

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures"

You seem to be saying that being gay is bad, and therefore cannot be a gift from God. Am I correct? How do you know being gay is bad? Did God tell you that?

So you see, do gay people DESERVE hell because they chose such a thing, or are they going to hell BECAUSE the Father has DULY cursed them so.

Where did the Father duly curse them?


Greco:

One good test of the theory is to observe the animal world such as the ape world where homosexuality is practiced.

I don't understand. How is this relevant, in your opinion?

Another observation has been made with the study of twins. If one twin is gay there's a high chance the other twin is gay.

Again, I don't see the relevance.

What else can I say to convince you of natures follies?

It's just you calling homosexuality a "folly". That's just your opinion. Nature is totally neutral about homosexuality. It is actually quite common in nature.

Your argument is equivalent to saying that nature made a mistake when it gave human beings two eyes instead of three.

1. How many gay people do you know personally?
2. How many of those would you say have psychological problems?
3. How many were abused when they were children?

Let me give you my answers to the same question:

1. Too many to work out an exact number.
2. None. Well, perhaps one or two, but such problems are certainly no more prevalent than in the heterosexual population, as far as I can tell.
3. None.

I'm not sure how you would answer 3 unless if you are a pschologist. It seems that this type of information is often times not reported to authorities. However, research into child abuse and later sexuality will prove that those who are abused typically show a number of indentity problems.

Whether gays have pschological problems is difficult because it based upon your definition of a psychological problem. However, for the gays that I know, while still functional, friendly members of society, have something wrong with them. And while I do say that everyone has something wrong with them, in this case it seems a direct result of psychology that makes someone gay. For instance, the female like voice associated with some suggest that it might be some sort pschological complex.

Okin,

I'm not sure how you would answer 3 unless if you are a pschologist. It seems that this type of information is often times not reported to authorities. However, research into child abuse and later sexuality will prove that those who are abused typically show a number of indentity problems.


I know many homosexuals, Okin. There isn't one that I know that has been abused as a child to make them homosexual. Further, I also have heterosexual friends, which there are a couple who were abused physically as well as sexually, yet they are still heterosexual.

However, for the gays that I know, while still functional, friendly members of society, have something wrong with them. And while I do say that everyone has something wrong with them, in this case it seems a direct result of psychology that makes someone gay. For instance, the female like voice associated with some suggest that it might be some sort pschological

I'm very curious as to what you mean "have something wrong with them". I find it funny how you single out the man who has the "female like voice" yet, totally overlook those who don't and are still homosexual. Yes, there are some women out there who also portray men like characteristics as well, but then there are those of us who do not. I might add that there are some women I know who are very masculine looking and happily married to their husbands. Would you consider them to have some sort of psychological problem as well? Are you saying people who are different must have some psychological complex?

It's just you calling homosexuality a "folly". That's just your opinion. Nature is totally neutral about homosexuality. It is actually quite common in nature.

I'm not quite sure where you stand on this issue. As a secularist I dont believe homosexuality is a sin or a condition that automatically sends you to hell. My argument is that nature isnt perfect in reproducing offspring such as the example of severely deformed children. Something went wrong in the DNA instructions.

Now let's take the example of nature making an error on a male infant: The child make come out totally normal( what we except) or have various physical or mental errors. I consider homosexuality an error because even though the child is physically a male, some hormonal switch didnt work properly to make this male child totally male. Mentaly he behaves in an effeminate manner.

I consider homosexuality a normal natural occurence that effects approximately 5-10 % of our population.

Your argument is equivalent to saying that nature made a mistake when it gave human beings two eyes instead of three.

I believe the evolutionary process is blind. Nature probably made animals with three eyes but the animals found the trait inneficient and dint get a chance to reproduce. We have two eyes because it works well, any other variation doesnt.

There's is a also a theory that states when population density increases homosexuality increases as a safety brake to exploding populations.

I know many homosexuals, Okin. There isn't one that I know that has been abused as a child to make them homosexual. Further, I also have heterosexual friends, which there are a couple who were abused physically as well as sexually, yet they are still heterosexual.

I think that's unlikely. I'm not just considering sexual abuse though.



I'm very curious as to what you mean "have something wrong with them". I find it funny how you single out the man who has the "female like voice" yet, totally overlook those who don't and are still homosexual.

It's more a sense that they've been exposed to some type of trauma.


Yes, there are some women out there who also portray men like characteristics as well, but then there are those of us who do not.

I don't know. I think you can tell alot about someone just from their voice, even my own voice seems to change for no apparent reason. I think our speech is sometimes an unconcience projection of ourselves.


I might add that there are some women I know who are very masculine looking and happily married to their husbands. Would you consider them to have some sort of psychological problem as well? Are you saying people who are different must have some psychological complex?

It's possible.

I think that's unlikely. I'm not just considering sexual abuse though.


Exactly what you mean by unlikely? That the heterosexuals I know who were abused physically and sexually maintained their sexual orientation, or that you find it unlikely that a homosexual hasn't been abused?

It's more a sense that they've been exposed to some type of trauma.

Do you have valid sources to back this up or is this your own theory?

I'd like to leave you with a couple of quotes:


In December 1973, the American Psychiatric Association's Board of Trustees deleted homosexuality from its official nomenclature of mental disorders, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Second Edition (DSMII). The action was taken following a review of the scientific literature and consultation with experts in the field. For a mental condition to be considered a psychiatric disorder, it should either regularly cause emotional distress or regularly be associated with clinically significant impairment of social functioning. These experts found that homosexuality does not meet these criteria.

The Board recognized that a significant portion of gay and lesbian people were clearly satisfied with their sexual orientation and showed no signs of psychopathology. It was also found that homosexuals were able to function effectively in society, and those who sought treatment most often did so for reasons other than their homosexuality.

Here's your trauma:

Bias-related incidents, arising from racism, sexism, intolerance based on religion, ethnicity, and national/tribal origin, and anti-gay and lesbian prejudice are widespread in society and continue to be a source of social disruption, individual suffering and trauma. These incidents are ubiquitous and occur in both urban and rural areas. Such hate-based incidents consist of acts of violence or harassment. These incidents result in emotional and physical trauma for individuals, as well as stigmatization of affected groups. Ethnic and cultural biases, vividly manifest in bias-related incidents, serve to frustrate the basic human need for dignity, resulting in despair and hopelessness among the victims that ultimately affect the whole nation

All quotes can be found here: http://www.psych.org/public_info/homose~1.cfm

[QUOTE=James R]Southstar:

I have some questions for you, too.

How many gay people do you know personally?
zilch.

You seem to be saying that being gay is bad, and therefore cannot be a gift from God. Am I correct? How do you know being gay is bad? Did God tell you that?

How did you infer that I was saying being gay is bad? If I had a reasonable stance, I wouldn't have posted this. Quite honestly, I am quite ignorant on these topics that is why I posted here to hear the opinion of other's. I am from Ghana, West Africa and before coming to America, I had NEVER EVER EVER heard of gays. Our Ghanaian society has no gays, or does not openly speak of homosexuals. Either way, I had ABSOLUTELY no idea what a gay was before coming to America so I cannot rightly say that being gay is "bad" or "good" or "normal" or whatever... Apart from the remarks friends at school made, the only other place I really "learned" about gays was in church. I'm sorry therefore if I wrongfully began the discussion with such a bias. I'm trying to figure things out for myself since things in America are VERY different from things back home.. Thanks for taking the time to read this. :)

Where did the Father duly curse them?


[

Are you saying you refuse to believe in it because you can't see it, you won't see it or there's no such thing as the "Bottomless Pit"?
Alrighty, I'll rephrase it. It doesn't exist because I've spent the last 6 years building an invisible, yet highly protective and indestructable shield around myself. Much like the one the aliens have in War of The Worlds (go the 50's movies!) which protects them against the Atom Bombs... and mine blocks out any belief or persuation in hell. Hence, I do not believe in hell, ok?

wait till the seventh year, shall you? ;)

And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created AND made.
-Genesis

Greco:

I'm confused. First you say:

I consider homosexuality an error because even though the child is physically a male, some hormonal switch didnt work properly to make this male child totally male. Mentaly he behaves in an effeminate manner.

Then, straight after this, you say:

I consider homosexuality a normal natural occurence that effects approximately 5-10 % of our population.

So, which is it? Is it an error, or a normal natural occurance?

I am also intrigued as to what you think is required for a person to be "totally male". Can you please explain?

I believe the evolutionary process is blind. Nature probably made animals with three eyes but the animals found the trait inneficient and dint get a chance to reproduce. We have two eyes because it works well, any other variation doesnt.

Spiders get by with 8 (or is it 12?) eyes. Lobsters, arguably, have thousands of eyes. Many animals have no eyes, or useless eyes, and it doesn't affect their lives at all. We have two eyes because of an accident in our evolutionary past. It works well <b>for us</b>, but it is not the only solution.

There's is a also a theory that states when population density increases homosexuality increases as a safety brake to exploding populations.

That's interesting. Do you have a reference?

Southstar:

I am from Ghana, West Africa and before coming to America, I had NEVER EVER EVER heard of gays. Our Ghanaian society has no gays, or does not openly speak of homosexuals.

I'm betting it's the latter rather than the former. Every human society of a decent size has an approximate 10-12% homosexual proportion.

I'm glad to hear you're not starting from a prejudiced position on this.

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures"


Smack me with a stick, but I can't find any reference in here to homosexuality.

Nor a reference to the hypothesis that homosexuals go to hell.

In fact, I don't see any of the words; 'gay, homosexual, hell' in this reference.

How did you reach the conclusion that homosexuals go to hell?

So, which is it? Is it an error, or a normal natural occurance?

Nature normally makes mistakes. Natural errors occur at a certain rate which can be considered normal. An abnormal rate would be if 90% of the population was born homosexual


That's interesting. Do you have a reference?[/QUOTE]
I certainly do James.


http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa033001a.htm

Malthus argued that because of the natural human urge to reproduce human population increases geometrically (1, 2, 4, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, etc.). However, food supply, at most, can only increase arithmetically (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, etc.). Therefore, since food is an essential component to human life, population growth in any area or on the planet, if unchecked, would lead to starvation. However, Malthus also argued that there are preventative checks and positive checks on population that slow its growth and keep the population from rising exponentially for too long, but still, poverty is inescapable and will continue…..

According to Malthus, preventative checks are those that affect the birth rate and include marrying at a later age (moral restraint), abstaining from procreation, birth control, and homosexuality. Malthus, a religious chap (he worked as a clergyman in the Church of England), considered birth control and homosexuality to be vices and inappropriate (but nonetheless practiced).

http://www.peak.sfu.ca/the-peak/98-3/issue5/homosexuality.html

An alternative hypothesis would be that the trait of homosexuality is geared towards the perpetuation of the species-population control. Perhaps, a gene becomes mutated-due to stress over the competition for resources-when the density of a population increases towards a dangerous level. The birth of such individuals with this trait would then not reproduce, and if the scale was great enough, population growth could stop or become negative.

http://www.viewzone.com/homosexual.html

It is therefore possible that while the body and organs of an animal can be a "male," the brain can coincidentally be "female." This extreme reaction to maternal stress even has a very logical and natural purpose. Sensing that a population is under the stress of crowding or poor living conditions, nature provides this hormonal mechanism as a means to limit population growth and thereby reduce the cause of the stress. Homosexual behavior results in less offspring than heterosexual behavior.

Malthus' theory was pretty much proved wrong, and England's inability to send aid after the Irish famine was caused in part by his theory. Growth rates are not entirely geometric. For example, when the country is wealthy there will be higher growth rates then if poor. I think this is more of sociological factor than a genetic one, despite starving women missing periods.

Well, I think to prove that homosexuality was caused due to population control, one would have to look at the earliest species that homosexuality occurs in--whatever that might be--and determine why it gave that species an advantage.

Perhaps I should modify my understanding of homosexual behavior and include environmental factors to the already stated biological determinism of DNA variations.

I recall a movie (the boys from Brazil) that was made about the Germans producing several clones of Hitler, hoping to eventualy reap another Fuerer. They understood that in order for another Hitler to be the same type everything in his environment had to be reproduced but alas they failed and the world was saved once again.

So what that means to me is that there maybe predisposed people that under certain enviromental triggers become homosexual.

Sorry for the Hitler comparison but that's what came to mind.

"you are terribly naive"

It's so shameful to see such rampant ignorance. Can you not tell I was being sarcastic in my writing? If not look again.

I'm pretty sure he knew you were being sarcastic..

If you read my later post, and maybe you should, you'll find that I didn't come here with a prejudice, or at least didn't intend on starting the discussion with a bias. Besides the topic of this thread doesn't even take a stance for that matter.

Smack me with a stick, but I can't find any reference in here to homosexuality.

Nor a reference to the hypothesis that homosexuals go to hell.

In fact, I don't see any of the words; 'gay, homosexual, hell' in this reference.

How did you reach the conclusion that homosexuals go to hell?

Excuse my ignorance, but can someone tell me then whether homosexuality has more of a genetic root than an environmental one?

If you read my later post, and maybe you should, you'll find that I didn't come here with a prejudice, or at least didn't intend on starting the discussion with a bias. Besides the topic of this thread doesn't even take a stance for that matter.

You claim that god didn't create gays. The thread title states ' do/should gays go to hell'.

you give a reference

There is nothing in it about gays

you claim no prejudice.

doesn't all quite add up I would say.

You could at least provide some kind of basis for your radical opinion.

Arguing this on other forum and would like to know your responses.

By my understanding as a Christian, I believe the eternal Father does not create gays. No one was born gay. For it is written,

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures"

So you see, do gay people DESERVE hell because they chose such a thing, or are they going to hell BECAUSE the Father has DULY cursed them so. Or are they in fact, pilgrims passing into Zion?


P.S. Hurray, my first post! Please respond :)
Gays have their own decisions. So, let them decide whether they want to go to hell or not.

A biblical understanding would be:

Sinners go to hell
All people are sinners
Gays are people
Gays go to hell like the rest of us.
God has made away for us to escape hell
Jesus has come into the world to make those who choose to be, children of God.
God will one day take His children and separate them from sinners.
Hell for one and the Earth for the others.

The problem that the church is having about Gays right now is two fold.

First is that there is the mistaken belief that sin is a choice/ --- only action is choice

Craving drugs ECT is a sin- even if you never use.

Sin is missing the mark of God perfection - both in mind/will and action.

Remember- "All have sinned and fallen short, none, not one is good."

The problem of weather being Gay is a choice or one is born Gay has no bearing on the above.

Studies about homosexuality seem to indicate that for some it’s a natural born tendency and for
others its purely a learnt behavior. For most it’s a mix of the two.

If one wishes to be contentious the Bible says God made some that way because they were
already of a deprived heart.

Romans1: 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and
wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known
about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of
the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen,
being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but
their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to
be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to
look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the
degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and
worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged
natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations
with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with
other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Good post Paul.

There is only one unforgivable sin and that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I am sure i will share eternity with more than a few former homosexuals.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Gays have their own decisions. So, let them decide whether they want to go to hell or not.

you're sick!

Arguing this on other forum and would like to know your responses.

By my understanding as a Christian, I believe the eternal Father does not create gays. No one was born gay. For it is written,

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures"

So you see, do gay people DESERVE hell because they chose such a thing, or are they going to hell BECAUSE the Father has DULY cursed them so. Or are they in fact, pilgrims passing into Zion?
Wow, your retardation astounds me, and I'm surrounded by fucking retards every day at this forum.
The bible is shit, because your god does not exist. There is no logic behind your god, and ergo does not exist. Therefore hell does not exist.
Gays are born gay, simple as that. If you weren't such a bigoted moron, you would see that homosexuality is caused by chemical anomalies in the brain prior to birth, resulting in an imbalance of testosterone and estrogen. It is not a choice.
Furthermore, even if it was a choice, why is it so much of a concern to you of what they do? It's what makes them happy. If they like it, who cares?

The question presumes there is a hell!!



Arguing this on other forum and would like to know your responses.

By my understanding as a Christian, I believe the eternal Father does not create gays. No one was born gay. For it is written,

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures"

So you see, do gay people DESERVE hell because they chose such a thing, or are they going to hell BECAUSE the Father has DULY cursed them so. Or are they in fact, pilgrims passing into Zion?


P.S. Hurray, my first post! Please respond :)

The whole concept of sins and the theory that god punishes sin and welcomes good behaviour is nothing short of laughable.

Even if a divine creator exists, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that how we behave matters to God as we could be following the natural path he himself created for life in the universe anyway.

Christianity has it's distorted view of God 100% wrong yet again.

Wow, your retardation astounds me, and I'm surrounded by fucking retards every day at this forum. The bible is shit, because your god does not exist. There is no logic behind your god, and ergo does not exist. Therefore hell does not exist. Gays are born gay, simple as that. If you weren't such a bigoted moron, you would see that homosexuality is caused by chemical anomalies in the brain prior to birth, resulting in an imbalance of testosterone and estrogen. It is not a choice.
Furthermore, even if it was a choice, why is it so much of a concern to you of what they do? It's what makes them happy. If they like it, who cares?
*************
M*W: Hapsburg, the post in question was written by SouthStar in March 2004, 1 1/2 years ago, and RESURRECTED BY ENTON this morning. Since that time, SouthStar had a thorough, amazing 180 degree, miraculous deconversion from christianity. In fact, I had been his worst nightmare on this forum. Since his deconversion, he became a new person. His closed-mindedness disappeared, his logical thought increased, he seemed as if the burden of the world had been lifed off of him! He actually became more human.

We've already discussed the homosexuality issue to death. I agree with you. It's an hormonal influence in utero. Most christians don't understand a hill of beans about it, that's why they're so homophobic, but goddamn they love the hell outta Jesus' body and blood!

The problem here is enton resurrecting ancient posts. May he be put away privily in the house of his lord.

Should Gays go to hell?

Only if I send them there.

Do you?

Being Gay is natural but is also a minority phenomenon. Much like some people have green eyes but most people do not.

That the Abrahamic religions are ignorant of natural homosexual physiology and use that as a basis for persecution is simply abhorrent.

I'm a Christian, and guess what - I don't find anything wrong with homosexuality.

You can't take the Bible literally. It there's to provide historical context within larger, timeless messages. If we try to apply our history to today, we'll most likely repeat it.

This applies so well to homosexuality. About 8 years ago, a young man by the name of Matthew Shepard was beaten to death in Wyoming. Reverend Fred Phelps went out of his way to visit the young man's funeral and yell "God hates fags!" And, if that wasn't enough, He went as far as to produce a monument in the young man's name that read:

"Matthew Shepard entered Hell on October 12, 1998, at age 21 in defiance of God's warning"

Disgusting. That is the ultimate proof of what God does NOT want.

God must be homosexual

According to the novel called "bible" God created Adam

and then what??? it was only because Adam eventually requested a companion that God begrudgingly created Eve

What was the original plan then eh ?? a bit of fig leaf lifting under the tree of knowledge I bet!!

well, as the christian abbhorance to homosexuality is based on hebrew law, we have to go from there.

jews dont believe in hell, therefore gays dont go to hell.

an excellent example of the christian religion "picking and choosing".