I never thought I would write a message like this. I just never thought it possible. And yet we are in an age where everything must be tested because the foundation of trust has been eroded in our society.

Revival: what a wonderful word! It means people are turning their lives to Jesus, and are getting their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life so that they will get to experience eternity in heaven with Him.

So then why are so many people going to revivals, experiencing incredible manifestations (body shaking, new gold teeth, barking, screaming, electric-like shocks through the body, etc.), and are attributing these things to the Holy Spirit...

...but not Jesus?

The Bible says that Jesus is the only way, and that "no man cometh unto the Father (God) but by me, sayeth the Lord (Jesus)".

Someone help me out with this, because it is really sad to see those that I call my brothers and sisters in the Lord, or as the Bible calls us "the elect" being "decieved". The funny thing is...it is the ones we called "lost" and "unsaved" that are able to see the TRUE church by its fruit (and even know exactly how a Christian should behave) better than our own pastors, ministers, teachers, and evangelists.

I welcome comments from all. God bless you and give each of you wisdom like Solomon, and a heart like King David.

theLass

theLass--

Being, personally, No Longer a Christian, I'm given to ask one question for perspective, so that I can give you a more relevant speculation.

I'm wondering if you would comment on your regard for the Trinity. In Catholic school, much rhetoric was spent advising us that the Trinity was--and I use these terms for lack of anything better--"real" and "genuine", though my further studies taught me that weeks of political debate preceded the formulation of the Trinity, and that parts of its founding ideas were mere political bargains within the Church structure.

As you commented: So then why are so many people going to revivals, experiencing incredible manifestations (body shaking, new gold teeth, barking, screaming, electric-like shocks through the body, etc.), and are attributing these things to the Holy Spirit...

...but not Jesus?

The Bible says that Jesus is the only way, and that "no man cometh unto the Father (God) but by me, sayeth the Lord (Jesus)".

I think resolution of certain historical issues such as the Trinity would go a long way toward resolving certain faith discrepancies.

To save extraneous detail, I would ask that the following citation suffice: Karen Armstrong devotes the entire fourth chapter of A History of God: The 4000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (Knopf, 1994) to the development of the Trinity.

Forgive me, please, if I'm picking one detail and running too fine a path with it; however, your comment about attributing revival experience to the Holy Spirit but not Jesus rang an instant bell from Armstrong:

The Cappadocians were also anxious to develop the notion of the Holy Spirit, which they felt had been dealt with very perfunctorily at Nicaea: "And we believe in the Holy Spirit" seemed to have been added to Athanasius's creed almost as an afterthought. People were confused about the Holy Spirit. Was it simply a synonym for God or was it something more? (Armstrong, 115)

As an outsider, and also drawing upon my own experience within Christian philosophy (the first half of my life), the best notion I can offer is that it might behoove Christians to gather together and hammer out a few of their more pressing dogmatic issues. Not abortion, homosexuality, or rock lyrics ... rather, make progress toward achieving a universal Christian view of certain faith points, such as how the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit relate. Notions of salvation, and other such considerations.

Beyond that, I can only hope I'm not reading you utterly incorrectly, and thus missing the point.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Tiassa,

For the record, I do believe in the Trinity (i.e. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

And yes, you read me incorrectly. I am talking about relationship, not religion. I'm talking about "knowing" Jesus...not using His name to forward manifestations. I don't believe in philosophy, I believe in faith. Philosophy requires your mind to understand based on tangible evidence. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Lucifer had philosphy. He based his opinion of himself on the evidence of his own power and beauty, and on that opinion based his self-exaltation...and subsequent fall.

I have faith. I have never stood in my Father's courts, nor lead the angels in worship, nor looked into the face my Savior Jesus, nor met Paul and Peter and John and Mark...yet I know I will enjoy eternity with my Father and in His love based on one very important FACT. He said.

God bless.

theLass

Lass,

I would say that the problem within some or most organized religion is the same problem that exists outside of it as well, and that is no personal relationship with Jesus Christ. People may like to think their heart's in the right place when it's not. They don't understand that it takes a lot more faith than they have. And that goes back to the church as well. They're supposed to teach about the difference. People get comfortable in organized religion. They get comfortable with the idea that they're going to heaven. They put faith in their ministers, or in the church, or in themselves, but never know Jesus. That's the difference. I'm saved, and I can see the fruits of organized religion very well. It's not pretty.

I don't necessarily think all of that craziness is made up either. Satan works through organized religion...are you kidding!!?? Of course he does, it seems to be his best audience sometimes. People....I don't know how to be any clearer than this...organized religion, a minister, or a church, or any "work" that you may do, will NOT get you to heaven. It's not it! That's not what it's about! NOT AT ALL! Not even a little. The best thing that a church can do for a person is to introduce them to the word of God, and explain that it takes more than just saying a prayer, or tithing, to know Jesus. They're supposed to tell people to get to know Jesus. But do you know what? Most ministers don't even know Jesus, so how could they be telling someone else about it. And besides, if they told everyone that they could get to heaven without a church and a tithe, they'd be out of business now wouldn't they? Oh, how sad, my old minister would have to give up his Mercedes, boo-hoo.
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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 30, 2000).]

theLass--

And yes, you read me incorrectly. I am talking about relationship, not religion. I'm talking about "knowing" Jesus...not using His name to forward manifestations.

Then you have my apologies.

I had primarily wondered if you were observing the difference between placing the faith of religious experience with the foundation of that faith--i.e. Jesus--as compared to a later philosophical development of institutional religion.

Anyway, sorry to miss it.

--Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

The Lass,

Your heart cries the same as mine, we are so human and so easily lead. We do not leave behind the desires that once controlled us. We do not throw off the things that would so easily entangle us and fix our focus solely on Jesus.

For if we truly did, if we took the time and showed the wisdom of understanding who He is and what He has actually done, if only we would. Then we would see through the glitz and glamour, we would see through the smokescreens and tricks, we would see the source of these things and we would be horrified and revolted.

These things serve to distract from the truth, from the true prophets and apostles upon who's words the real church is built with Jesus as the corner stone. These things confuse people about who the Holy Spirit is and how He works, and yes He still works today.

There is so much more we could say and reflect on but lets not just be hearers and speakers, lets do something about it. LETS PRAY!


Allcare

Tony H2o

http://www.inspired-tech.com/dovebar1.gif



[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited July 04, 2000).]

]Your heart cries the same as mine, we are so human and so easily lead.


Prove it!