http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_pantheism
Naturalistic Pantheism is a form of pantheism that holds that the universe, although unconscious and non-sentient as a whole, behaves as a single, interconnected, and solely natural substance. Accordingly, Nature is seen as being what religions call "God" only in a non-traditional, impersonal sense, where the terms Nature and God are synonymous. Therefore, naturalistic pantheism is also known as "impersonal pantheism" and "impersonal absolutism," and does not posit any form of supernatural belief.

Good bye Atheism, good ridence Chistianisty , Jewdaism and Islam. Push over Hindu and Buddism.

I found what to call myself if any one asks me :) Im a Naturalistic Pantheist. Ive had these views for a long time but only now have discovered im not the first to have these idea's and it even has a name.
I can now say "God bless you and may you find prosperity, do whats good for yourself, good for all and whats good for all of the universe" :D

Discus please

That is practically the same thing as atheism. It also resembles Taoism.

A druid was a member of the priestly and learned class in the ancient Celtic societies of Western Europe, Britain and Ireland. They were suppressed by the Roman government and disappeared from the written record by the second century CE. Druids combined the duties of priest, judge, scholar, and teacher.[1] Little contemporary evidence for them exists, and thus little can be said of them with assurance, but they continued to feature prominently in later Irish myth and literature.[2]

The earliest record of the name druidae (Δρυΐδαι) is reported from a lost work of the Greek doxographer Sotion of Alexandria (early second century BCE), who was cited by Diogenes Laertius in the third century CE.[3]

The Celtic communities that Druids served were polytheistic. They also show signs of animism, in their reverence for various aspects of the natural world, such as the land, sea and sky,[4] and their veneration of other aspects of nature, such as sacred trees and groves (the oak and hazel were particularly revered), tops of hills, streams, lakes and plants such as the mistletoe.[5] Fire was regarded as a symbol of several divinities and was associated with cleansing. Purported ritual killing and human sacrifice were aspects of druidic culture that shocked classical writers.[6]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid&usg=AFQjCNGIMCdrqPhl9ygZnGReHR7XNhj87Q

That is practically the same thing as atheism. It also resembles Taoism.

Atheism is the belief in no god or no existence of any god.

Judaism/Christianity and Islamic religions is the belief in the most powerful god conscience matter (mankind) can imagine (godly ordained). That’s why they always fight/argue, my god is more powerful then your god therefore my gods’ morals are more divine then yours. Unchecked it aims for supremacy in the name of their god and persecution to unbelievers the evil ones, religious domination (in god) leads to religious slavery (in god). IMHO

Both are extreme views and quite natural phenomena. Taoism is a more balanced view? Ying and Yang. So yes Naturalistic Pantheism does resemble Taoism.

Naturalistic Pantheism is the belief that god is everything.
You can think of it as the body of god or each part is part of the whole. Knowledge is a greater understanding of god/nature.

Why both with the term god at all?

Because Pantheism holds that the cosmos, taken or conceived of as a whole, is synonymous with God.

Pantheim isnt just a belief but also about the lifstyle choices.

http://www.pantheist.net/lifeways.htm
quote from a pantheist website

A dedication to living an ethical life-style (known in many religions as the Way of Works) is one of the most important modes of religious experience for the modern Pantheist. doing some good in the world is properly understood to mean not merely to safeguard the well-being of neighbors, community, and humanity at large, but also to protect the natural environment upon which all living things depend. This works in reverse, too: To be an enviromentalist is to have concern not only for the planet but for all of mankind and all living things.

Reverent behavior toward the earth necessitates a personal commitment toward living in greater harmony with the biosphere.


http://www.pantheist.net/society/pantheist_world_view.html
Awsome site, explains Pantheim way better than I ever could.

Organic Belief.
A key part of Pantheist belief is that it is not absolute in terms of unchangeable truths. It very much lends itself to the scientific process to allow openness and to new insights.

Faith in a belief can lead religious fundamentalists seeking regression to an imaginary time when everything was unchanging and absolute. The extremists react against progressive ideas not only because it may conflict with doctrine but also fear change itself.

The simple fact of life is that beliefs can change. Asking some one to have faith in a belief should be unacceptable, especially in religion. Tomorrow we may not believe the same things we did the day before because we can lean things about our surroundings and ourselves.

Instead of asking a person to adhere to strict creeds and doctrine a Pantheist would ask you to practice mindful living. How freeing it is to not have to be asked to have faith in any idea. Pantheist are mindful not because fear to avoid eternal suffering or because the hope of entering heaven an eternal nirvana. They do it because it brings joy and inspiration right here now, in this world, and by doing so it ultimately helps to make the world a better place.

Harro
Pantheism holds that the cosmos, taken or conceived of as a whole, is synonymous with God.

Varieties of pantheism

This article distinguishes between three divergent groups of pantheists:

* Classical pantheism, which is expressed in the immanent God of Kabalistic Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Monism, neopaganism, and the New Age, generally viewing God in either a personal or cosmic manner.

* Biblical pantheism, which is expressed in the writings of the Bible with the understanding of personification linguistics as a cultural communication idiom in Hebrew language. [Isa 55:12] [Acts 17:28]

* Naturalistic pantheism, based on the relatively recent views of Baruch Spinoza (who may have been influenced by Biblical pantheism) and John Toland (who coined the term "pantheism"), as well as contemporary influences.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

So you say its synonymous "god."

What's "god?"

Pantheism \Pan” the*ism\, n. [Pan- + theism.]
Any doctrine, philosophy, or religious practice that holds universe [cosmos], taken or conceived of as the totality of forces and/or matter, is synonymous with the theological principle of God.

Naturalism is a metaphysical theory that holds that all phenomena can be explained mechanically in terms of natural causes and laws. Naturalism posits that the universe is indifferent to human needs and desires, As opposed to any supernatural forces.


So you say its synonymous "god."

What's "god?"

Hi Swarm, its hard to say with out sounding like I’m preaching but ill try and put it in my perspective please note I’ve come from an Christian background with some in site to Catholic, Jehovah Witness, Born Again Christian and United Kingdom churches. I’ve read some but not very much about Mohammad’ life and Islam. I must admit I don’t know much about eastern philosophy. I’ve always been a sceptic even taking on Atheism as my belief because I was never attracted to any mainstream religions they seemed sterile, self-contradicting, unsceintific and unknowingly or knowing teach prejudice, prooved to lead to violence and breed extreemists. That’s not to say all do, some are the loveliest people I’ve ever meet.
I hope Pantheism wont lead to extreme environmentalist blowing up oil rigs.
I’ve only discovered and converted to Pantheism the day I started this topic so still learning.

Keeping it real.
Often among sceptics of Naturalistic Pantheism, one gets asked the question. Aren’t you just a fancy name for Atheism when you equate the cosmos and all within it synonymous to god and no need for the supernatural? My answer to that is No.

Everything is constantly being created and evolving all the time and even destroyed. Some things that existed in the past don’t exist now and some things that don't exist now will exist in the future. Not those things spontaneously exist from nothing it just changes form and can be explained scientifically. It's always changing so to define what’s god is an impossible proposition. So I say I don’t know and say no one does my premise is god is real and is found in every one, everything and the universe with out supernatural forces or otherworldly places or intervention.

Naturalistic Pantheism (NP) says synonymous of God because it’s not the same understanding of god in the same way as mainstream theology, which says God is most often conceived of as the supernatural creator and overseer of the universe.

The best way I can think of explaining it is by looking at genesis through the lens of NP religion. From a NP perspective that God is the cosmos and everything it contains can be explained naturally with out superstition, magic and supernatural forces. Firstly you need to get the context in which the story of genesis was conceived. The story would have been told orally possibly passed down generations before it was penned to paper maybe 5000years ago? Telling the tale of the origins of creation, Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, deception and falling from grace. So from NP point of view I could explain a new interpretation while keeping it real and hopefully maintain the beauty of the story.

The Cosmo’s creates and evolves. This is the nature of everything, from energy and matter to galaxies, stars and planets.
In time our solar system evolved to exist in the form of our sun and the earth. With out the universe and what’s with in, none would be possible.
Just like the workings of the universe organisms evolved as well, and it happened on earth.
Adam is also a symbol of first Homo sapiens that have our origins via evolution; as such we come from the earth and are made of matter. To NP we are like everything else in the universe and all with in, which metaphorically gave birth to all life, made of the same stuff the universe is made of.
The Earth, sacred to NP, was ideal for Mankind. Plants and animals for food, oxygen to breath, water to drink and warmth from the sun, materials for tools and shelter. All made possible because the universe and all within, the Garden of Eden.
The story of Adam is similar to a child and his parents. To a child your parents are, they are the provider and nurturer. Just as the earth provides for us and the universe as a whole is its place to make it possible.
As a child grows up they loose their innocence and as such should become mindful, productive and intelligent human beings. The story is about becoming an adult finding a partner and moving away from your parents. Being mindful required you to respect your parents and in this case Adam was mislead by Eve, his partner, who was deceived. So now Adam and Eve where cast out of home, had to work for food and provide a home for there own family. A story not unlike most peoples family.

Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil because of a deceiver. Symbolically this is a duality when children grow up and Homo sapiens as a whole become wise to right and wrong and the ability to make these judgment calls are within all humans. That is to have a conscious, to be mindful of the earth, nature and of others. Not to be lead astray by temptations that bring harm to the environment, to others sensibilities or intentionally harm others. In other words we should use knowledge and science for the betterment of mankind and not it’s destruction.

While a condensed version it’s a very powerful story with is the roots of humanity and morals.
As with any fairy tale there’s a moral to the story. I’ve retold the story while keeping it real, no superstition and from this perspective you can conceive god as being in every one, every thing and the cosmos as a whole. When you look at the world this way you get an in site to the importance of humans to take responsibility and look after the plants, animals and each other. The universe or a god isn’t going to just magically make it happen although inevitably as with anything in the universe it will evolve the sun will burn out and the earth will be no more, it’s remanence may in the eons of time be part of another structure in the universe. From Naturalistic Pantheist perspective there is no savoir to pull us out of the shit. Heaven and Hell is attainable on earth, as a species, not as an individual but every individual has some responsibility. No need for the supernatural or other worldly place.
We have maybe billions of years to try and maintain the Garden of Eden that sustains life on earth and quite possibly possess technology to inhabit the rest of the heavens. As with the organic changing nature of everything, morals evolve there not set in stone and today environmental concerns are more important than ever.

Excerpt from Monism by Ernst Haeckel

“Pantheism teaches that God and the world are one. The idea of God is identical with that of nature or substance.”
“It follows necessarily that pantheism is the world-system of the modern scientist.”

Excerpt from The Practice of Pantheist Mindfulness by Harold W. Wood, Jr.

“Within NP is the concept of mindful living. That is to go out and experience nature, instead of a prayer 5 times a day a NP could if they so choose to practice there religion by engaging with a plant, an animal, the earth, the sky and/or another human being. Really seeing what it’s all about, interacting with it and basically just being mindful. It could be as much as hugging a loved one or giving attention to a pet its your choise.
Mindful living isn’t done because of fear, or to avoid suffering, or because of the hope of going to Heaven or entering a state of Nirvana when we die. We do it because it brings joy and inspiration right here now, in this world, and by so doing it ultimately helps to make the world a better place.”

“If you want to learn more about NP view of god look at nature. Rather than indoor philosophy found in the book and temples. You instead have to go outside. A tree or a bird on the wing will give you a better sermon than any person.”

Regarding Perfection By Carl:

“The products of nature, including Homo sapiens, appear to us to include lots of flaws. But the possibility and actualisation of flaws is essential. Evolution would not, could not, function without flaws and flaw potential. Without flaw potential, there would be no yinyang. In other words, flaws are a part natures perfect system.

Nature strives to improve, strives for perfection. And we humans mirror that innate aspect of nature. Look at our technology. Automobiles, for example: in the early part of the 20th century, cars broke down frequently and needed near daily maintenance. Now cars are faster, safer, quieter, more comfortable, need little maintenance, and last far longer than their predecessors. The story is similar in practically all fields of technology.

Flaw potential as a part of nature's perfect system is one of the great paradoxes of life.”

As near as I can tell you are trying to make the term "god" synonymous with Nature. I feel this is misleading in that it is not the common usage of god which inevitably involves the supernatural and almost always implies agency and worship.

Also except for making your position more confusing, saying "god" doesn't bring anything with it that would not be there if you said Nature since you purposefully exclude all unnatural aspects to this "god."

[SIZE="2"]Often among sceptics of Naturalistic Pantheism, one gets asked the question. Aren’t you just a fancy name for Atheism when you equate the cosmos and all within it synonymous to god and no need for the supernatural? My answer to that is No.

SIZE]

I’ve come to revaluate my position on Naturalistic Pantheism be equated with Atheism. Changing my answer from no to a “yes with a clause”

NP=Atheist + clause

Clause = a feeling or a need to connect with the earth where life thrives, the sun that gives warmth and light and the universe that makes it all possible.

As near as I can tell you are trying to make the term "god" synonymous with Nature. I feel this is misleading in that it is not the common usage of god which inevitably involves the supernatural and almost always implies agency and worship.

Also except for making your position more confusing, saying "god" doesn't bring anything with it that would not be there if you said Nature since you purposefully exclude all unnatural aspects to this "god."

Yes I agree using the term god is misleading in this day and age. But I'm stealing the term back to its original purpose when the earth and heavens where sacred.

Just like reclaiming the day of 25th of December where in the northern hemisphere the sun is metaphorically reborn. When the sun ends its shortest days for 3days, is resurrected and starts its transit to longer day light hours. Which Bible writers stole with lies as the birth of Jesus Christ the SUN of god.

The earth and heavens can be sacred with out any need for the term god.

The winter solstice isn't Dec 25th. It doesn't "ends its shortest days for 3days." There is one specific day for the change from shorter days to longer days and the ancients knew all about it.

And just because "son" and "sun" are homonyms in English doesn't mean they are in any of the biblical languages (they aren't).

Just because lot's of people have sun gods doesn't mean they are inter related or that JC is based on one. His myth actuall tracks Mythras better than the local sun god myths. But there are a lot of Jesus like myths in that area of the world. It was a very popular story that some one did a Jewish retread of.

The winter solstice occurs at the instant when the Sun's position in the sky is at its greatest angular distance on the other side of the equatorial plane from the observer. Depending on the shift of the calendar, the event of the winter solstice occurs some time between December 20 and December 23 each year in the northern hemisphere, and between June 20 and June 23 in the southern hemisphere, during either the shortest day or the longest night of the year, which is not to be confused with the darkest day or night or the day with the earliest sunset or latest sunrise. Though the Winter Solstice lasts an instant, the term is also colloquially used to refer to the full 24-hour period.

Worldwide, interpretation of the event has varied from culture to culture, but most cultures have held a recognition of rebirth, involving holidays, festivals, gatherings, rituals or other celebrations around that time.[2]

The seasonal significance of the Winter Solstice is varied, since it is sometimes said to astronomically mark either the beginning or middle of a hemisphere's Winter. Winter is a subjective term, so there is no scientifically established beginning or middle of winter but the Winter Solstice itself is clearly defined within a second.

The word solstice derives from Latin sol (sun) and sistere (to stand still), Winter Solstice meaning Sun standstill in winter.

Yeah your right It seems I was off by a few days, I was exagerating the word sun and son becasue the sun was commonally reviered as a god, and Jesus was the son of god.

would you rather thank the sun for giving the baby seed a chance to grow and feed your mouth.

Or thank a man of miracles, for the central establishment of moral authority

Who's the real saviour here?

you should site your source there...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice

I understand the exageration, but does it make as much sense as fili and sol or huios and helios?

What's wrong with thanking neither?

thanks for adding the wiki site, I should have.

Nothing wrong with thinking neither. You have free will to choose what you believe from your experiences in life. Thats what being human is all about.

I just try to give a natural perpective in how god is refelected in nature and thats what makes god real (to me at least). I dont need faith in a supernatural magic god when I believe in a real god.

The problem is where you draw the line between what is real and what is not, its a grey area becasue one could argue that imagination is real. Therefor is that god also?

Also beliefs have the ability to change when you accuire new knowledge. Some might believe something you know may be set in stone but over time that stone can be a fluid as the water.

how god is refelected in nature

I thought you were saying god is nature?

Personally I don't believe in believing in gods. Makes not the least sense to me. I don't need to believe in rocks, why do I need to believe in gods?

God as just a concept of just a flight of fantasy is no big deal. Helps many a weak plot line along. If only there weren't so many people who want to pretend their fantasies are real.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_pantheism
Naturalistic Pantheism is a form of pantheism that holds that the universe, although unconscious and non-sentient as a whole, behaves as a single, interconnected, and solely natural substance. Accordingly, Nature is seen as being what religions call "God" only in a non-traditional, impersonal sense, where the terms Nature and God are synonymous. Therefore, naturalistic pantheism is also known as "impersonal pantheism" and "impersonal absolutism," and does not posit any form of supernatural belief.

Good bye Atheism, good ridence Chistianisty , Jewdaism and Islam. Push over Hindu and Buddism.

I found what to call myself if any one asks me :) Im a Naturalistic Pantheist. Ive had these views for a long time but only now have discovered im not the first to have these idea's and it even has a name.
I can now say "God bless you and may you find prosperity, do whats good for yourself, good for all and whats good for all of the universe" :D

Discus please

I am an atheist and this fits me like a glove. I think it's basically atheism.

Naturalistic Pantheism is the belief that god is everything.
You can think of it as the body of god or each part is part of the whole. Knowledge is a greater understanding of god/nature.

Erm.. a minute ago you said that Naturalistic Pantheism doesn't recognize the supernatural and that it posits that where theists say god they really mean nature.
Or did I get that wrong :confused:

Yep that’s correct

Its the belief god embodies nature (as opposed to supernatural and magical god)
And is indifferent to human needs and desires. It's a position that workings of nature can be explained scientifically.
Most practitioners (not all) can learn of life’s workings by seeing how other bodies interact around them or a feeling of togetherness if you like because very much so we are part of nature as well, they want to feel spiritually in tune with it. They don’t do it not because of a belief in heaven or hell but because it feels good right here right now. It's a way of saying thanks, I want to make a meaningful contibution while im alive with out a need for anything in return other than to feel good about it I supose.

yep thats correct

its the belief god embodies nature or is nature as opposed to supernatural and magic.
And is indifferent to human needs and desires. It's a possition that workings of nature can be explained scientificly.
Most practisioners can get an insight to lifes workings by seeing how other bodies interact around them or a feeling of oneness if you like becasue very much so we are part of nature as well.

Yea, but is it necessary to keep mentioning god ? Just say everything is nature and that god doesn't exist as such, and be done with it :D

I believe it is god, feel purposeful but you dont have to believe what I believe in.

I believe it is god.

No, you believe it's nature.. :confused:

yes I do

I'm confused..

do you believe in nature? If you study or gain knowledge you discover how you come into being. EG evolution, predation, plant life, the suns light and warmth ect

If thats not god I dont know what god is

do you believe in nature?

What do you mean ? Like, do I believe nature exists ? Of course I do, in fact, I know so.

Yes I believe I exist, chatting with you now arn't I?

If you study or gain knowledge you discover how you come into being. EG evolution, predation, plant life, the suns light and warmth ect
Agreed


If thats not god I dont know what god is
Wrong question.. it's nature, not God.

Yes I believe I exist, chatting with you now arn't I?

What..? I never asked whether or not you exist. Please reread.

Oh forgot to mention when I die my molecules will return to god, if fact I think all the atoms change in your body every 5-7years or so dont thay?

Oh forgot to mention when I die my molecules will return to god, if fact I think all the atoms change in your body every 5-7years or so dont thay?

Man, you have to pick one. God or nature.
When you die the atoms that make up your body now are returned to the Earth, to nature.

Getting mixed up becasue I'm editing spelling mistakes and stuff while you reply in the mean time.

I ment to say I exist in my conscious body now but the parts that form my body dont vanish when I die.

Why should I believe in a magical, supernatural, superstitious god?
I believe nature is god and god is real. Everything from the cosmos as a whole and all parts there of.

Getting mixed up becasue I'm editing spelling mistakes and stuff while you reply in the mean time.

I ment to say I exist in my conscious body now but the parts that form my body dont vanish when I die.

Well, I agree. But you asked me whether or not I believed in nature. I asked you what you meant by that.. you never answered ;)

Why should I believe in a magical, supernatural, superstitious god?
I believe nature is god and god is real. Everything from the cosmos as a whole and all parts there of.

Sigh.. ok. So you reject the accepted definition of the word "God", in stead you say "God" means "nature" to you. Correct ?
So why do you keep using the word God ? What's wrong with the word Nature ?

seems there is no accepted definition of god other than what your told to believe by the central authority of priest and men trying to enslave you and bend your will to the will of there god.
Taking your freedoms and killing in the name of a supernatural, superstitious one.

I have cleerly defined my god the best of my knowledge but still learning as humans like to do some times.

seems there is no accepted definition of god other than what your told to believe by the central authority of priest and men trying to enslave you and bend your will to the will of there god.
Taking your freedoms and killing in the name of a supernatural, superstitious one.
Right.. God is by definition supernatural, which is something you reject.


I have cleerly defined my god as best of my knowledge.

And that definition happens to be exactly the same as the definition of nature, correct ?
I'm not sure what you're trying to pull off by keeping to call nature God.. perhaps acceptance from your parents, friends etc ?

Interesting, a new Pantheist. Congratulations and welcome.

Now don't get all upset because you find that Pantheism has many versions. Forget everything you have read or been told so far. See if you can find YOUR Pantheism. What is it about Nature that is supernatural to YOU.

Science is nature without the supernatural. Most people, given enough time and thought, will contemplate the concept of God. They do this within themselves and in spite of what they have been taught as they grew up, and in spite of what they have read or learned from experience. They contemplate God and ask themselves, what do I believe.

You have been there. You found an answer. You are developing that answer within yourself. It will evolve in its natural course.

The question is, does the fact that conscious self-aware life leads to the contemplation of the concept of God imply that we are genetically predispositioned to wrestle with the personal decision. If so, do you find that particular predisposition supernatural? Is it supernatural enough to allow you to go beyond "God is Nature" to "God encompasses Nature and a predisposition that accompanies our genetic code". In other words, do you think such a predisposition was intentional?

If not, your Pantheism is "God is Nature". If so, your Pantheism is God is an intention that, like Nature, has always existed along with Nature.

Interesting, a new Pantheist. Congratulations and welcome.

Now don't get all upset because you find that Pantheism has many versions. Forget everything you have read or been told so far. See if you can find YOUR Pantheism. What is it about Nature that is supernatural to YOU.

Science is nature without the supernatural. Most people, given enough time and thought, will contemplate the concept of God. They do this within themselves and in spite of what they have been taught as they grew up, and in spite of what they have read or learned from experience. They contemplate God and ask themselves, what do I believe.

You have been there. You found an answer. You are developing that answer within yourself. It will evolve in its natural course.

The question is, does the fact that conscious self-aware life leads to the contemplation of the concept of God imply that we are genetically predispositioned to wrestle with the personal decision. If so, do you find that particular predisposition supernatural? Is it supernatural enough to allow you to go beyond "God is Nature" to "God encompasses Nature and a predisposition that accompanies our genetic code". In other words, do you think such a predisposition was intentional?

If not, your Pantheism is "God is Nature". If so, your Pantheism is God is an intention that, like Nature, has always existed along with Nature.

I really think he rejects the supernatural. But he has me a bit confused, so..

I dont believe in the idea god is supernatural I simply have no faith in that idea at all. So with that concept out of the way I can now gain knowledge of god. Quite literally for Natural Panthiest god is inside every animal,plant, the stars the planets, the energy, the matter the whole sheebang baby :)

God is what you believe god to be not what your told god is. IMHO if you believe you found god then you have. Why would you believe anything otherwise unless your beliefs are forced on you or indocrinated from birth.

Interesting, a new Pantheist. Congratulations and welcome.

See if you can find YOUR Pantheism.

Science is nature without the supernatural. Most people, given enough time and thought, will contemplate the concept of God. They do this within themselves and in spite of what they have been taught as they grew up, and in spite of what they have read or learned from experience. They contemplate God and ask themselves, what do I believe.

You have been there. You found an answer. You are developing that answer within yourself. It will evolve in its natural course.



Thank you, your welcome its very comforting. Im still grappling with it and very very new.

You really have to dig deep and ask the big question some times, what do I believe. Quite often you don't have the answers and may never arrive at one.

With a Panthiest point of view I might ask the question, why are there preditors in nature, I then relise without preditors I wouldnt exist becasue predation helps drive evolution. Stuff like that is quite an interesting angle.

Prior to Panthiem I would have thought why would god create this evil thing. But then you relize it's not evil at all its just doing what is natural.

do you believe in nature?

No. There is no need to.


If thats not god I dont know what god is

Ok, you don't know what god is. No one does because there isn't any "what" or "is" there.

Oh forgot to mention when I die my molecules will return to god, if fact I think all the atoms change in your body every 5-7years or so dont thay?

Not really.

Thank you, your welcome its very comforting. Im still grappling with it and very very new.

...For me to welcome you as a new Pantheist is an acknowledgement to you on my part that I have respect for all that is nature. Would I have set nature up the way it is? I’m not smart enough, no one is. Only nature itself could secure the intricacies. When I give nature such grand praise it is because I am the beneficiary of enough of those imponderable intricacies that I can say without compunction that no evolved life form could have had anything to do with it.

You have been reading about my personal cosmology and so you see that my view is that there is an explanation for how the mechanics of the universe operate at the quantum level and on the level of the landscape of the greater universe. Nothing supernatural is necessary for it to continue in my opinion. I see it as a perpetual process of entropy and reverse entropy going on at the same time in arenas whose numbers are potentially infinite.

So it is conceivable to me that the cosmology of the universe is, was and will continue to be essentially the same as described in QWC. Some argue that I am making it up, and it is true to a degree. I know the universe works, I know science cannot yet explain it in the detail that I include in QWC, and I could just as easily have gone with the crowd and said “we just don’t know” how it works.

Like many in science I could have said it will all end; not just that life on Earth will end which of course it will, not just potential life on the hospitable planets that must be scattered throughout our Milky Way Galaxy, not just possible life in the other galaxies in our expanding arena of the observable universe, but all life throughout the greater universe. But I didn’t say that because of my respect and awe for what is, and my faith that “what is” is not temporary but is perpetual.

That faith is the beginning of my Pantheism. A respectful acknowledgement and awe that nature has always been there and will always be there in such intricacy that the greater universe will always be home to conscious, self-aware life forms. The result of my Pantheism is the point that I call enlightenment and others call the grand delusion. It is where I attribute characteristics to nature that are supernatural, which I do.

What is the supernatural part to me? It is not the perpetual part and not even the consciousness; it is the predisposition of conscious self-aware life as displayed by Humans on Earth to contemplate the existence of God and to come to a point of deciding for themselves on matters of God and faith. It is that predisposition that I see as a part of our genetic code that is supernatural to me though it can be explained as natural by those who decide to do so. To me it is an intention that has always existed and is imbedded in the very Nature of things.

Ah, I see where we diverge.

You covet faith and belief and of course the ultimate repository of such is "goD."

I don't covet faith. I find nature abhors belief and "goD" is of no utility.

Nature is not goD. Nature is itself. goD is not anything.

Hi Quantum Wave, do you equate supernatural to the unknown, or what you imagin to be unknowable.

I am yet to expeience a supernatural event in my lifetime, everything is explainable to some degree. I do enjoy learning about biology and I dont see the unexplained as unknowable, I just feel what is unknownc can be known and science is a good way of finding out how it all works. I can understand how consciousness evolved from the organisms that had the ability to respond to light and respond to chemicals in the environment. Never the less Life on earth is amazing and bizzare an amazing machine of nature.

Swarm, you can believe what ever you want. I hope no one forces there beliefs onto you.

Any one read this book?
The Sacred Balance: Rediscovering Our Place in Nature
by Dr David Suzuki
This scientist is awsome, I love watching nature documentaries.

Hi Quantum Wave, do you equate supernatural to the unknown, or what you imagin to be unknowable.No, the unknown is not the same as the supernatural. What I call the supernatural is not that there is life or consciousness. There are a lot of unknowns but there are some pretty good ideas about their nature. I just think that there is intention in the intricacies of nature. That "intention" has always existed just like the universe has always existed. It is supernatural to me that an intention be embedded in nature. Of course everything about this "intention" is non-science, and non-science is a way to describe the supernatural.


I am yet to expeience a supernatural event in my lifetime, everything is explainable to some degree. I do enjoy learning about biology and I dont see the unexplained as unknowable, I just feel what is unknownc can be known and science is a good way of finding out how it all works. I can understand how consciousness evolved from the organisms that had the ability to respond to light and respond to chemicals in the environment. Never the less Life on earth is amazing and bizzare an amazing machine of nature.When I consciously decided to recognize the "intention" embedded in nature I began to see the nature of things differently. There is no irrefutable proof of the "intention" but when you decide it is there you have to have personally decided to believe it is there.

I just think that eventually, given enough time and introspection, people contemplate the concept of God. That act of contemplation leaves a quantum impression in our brains. That impression always stays there and so if contemplation leaves a net postive impression it might be called belief. The supernatural part is that conscious self-aware individuals have a predisposition built in their genetic code to contemplate the supernatural and how they respond to that contemplation determines whether or not they believe in the supernatural.

Like Swarm says, "belief" has a repository in God.

So... I can't play ?

I really think he rejects the supernatural. But he has me a bit confused, so..I'm not sure if confused is the right word. The quantum impressions that are embedded in his neurons from contemplating the concept of God are not fully formed and sorted out :).

I'm not sure if confused is the right word. The quantum impressions that are embedded in his neurons from contemplating the concept of God are not fully formed and sorted out :).

Well.. I said I was confused though. One minute he says that God is nature, the next he says that God really does exist.

Well.. I said I was confused though. One minute he says that God is nature, the next he says that God really does exist.Implying he is confused :). It thought you were just being nice by not saying he seems confused.

Implying he is confused :). It thought you were just being nice by not saying he seems confused.

Either he is confused or he fails in his explanation. Then again, it might be me failing to understand what he means ;)

Read the very first line of the opening thread, im saying god is everything in the cosmos and its all interconnected some how. Im not confused. Most Panthiests get meaning out of life from this and find they are spiritually connected, a possition that thanks nature for giving you life and suporting all the the stuctures and intracacies for letting it happen. From the Cosmos, the universe, the galaxies, the stars, the planet, the plants and animals. It's a position that is suported by science. New knowledge can give new meaning to the "workings of Nature" from a humanitarian and environmentalist point of view.

Its a religion where you get inspired by nature, our environment, mindful of your habitat, connection with others of the human race and many other things that have a relationship with you., if you look deep enough its all interconnected, a chain of events, action and reaction. A possition where your beliefs can change as science and knowledge continue to form new understanding.

Read the very first line of the opening thread, im saying god is everything in the cosmos and its all interconnected some how. Im not confused. Most Panthiests get meaning out of life from this and find they are spiritually connected, a possition that thanks nature for giving you life and suporting all the the stuctures and intracacies for letting it happen. From the Cosmos, the universe, the galaxies, the stars, the planet, the plants and animals. It's a position that is suported by science. New knowledge can give new meaning to the "workings of Nature" from a humanitarian and environmentalist point of view.

Its a religion where you get inspired by nature, our environment, mindful of your habitat, connection with others of the human race and many other things that have a relationship with you., if you look deep enough its all interconnected, a chain of events, action and reaction. A possition where your beliefs can change as science and knowledge continue to form new understanding.
Well, there you go again..
Remove the first sentence from your post I quoted above and tell me how that makes a difference.

Naturalism posits that the universe is indifferent to human needs and desires.
That’s why. You do it for your self and you do it for a better earth.
I agree, Idolized supernatural gods are a man made construct of the mind, including other wordly heaven and hell. I’m at no illusions about this.
However the term god predated this belief system. When the stars indicated when to go hunt, what direction must I be going to find my prey, when should I plant my crop? When the term god was a reverence to our connection with nature. When we asked how do we fit into the sceme of things.
SO if god is the creator, and we are created by nature, that would be god, id say.
Any way if the word is abhorent to use leave out the word all together, no skin of my back.

From Panthiest Age
Pantheism is the synthesis which transcends both theism and atheism; its major tenet is that the Universe is the ultimate reality and the most worthy object of reverence, while Nature is a sacred manifestation of the Totality, or All-One, in which all things are inseparable components.
http://www.paxdoraunlimited.com/PantheistAge.html

Harro, your link and the article about Once and Future World Religion was timely relative to another thread I just read, this thread (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=87517). It reminded me of our discussion on your thread :). And my post (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2079189&postcount=13) there pertains to my idea about an "intention" that has always existed just like the universe itself has always existed. Predispostion to contemplate the concept of God is not the same thing as predetermination in the philosophical sense or in the mechanical sense. My point is that the idea of "intention" doesn't conflict with either Pantheism or physics. The fact that the location of a quantum particle doesn't exist until it is observed insolates intentional predisposition to contemplate God from the deterministic view that realism would mean predetermination. That is what was tested and reported in the following article.

In this thread (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=87050) there is a link to an article (http://seedmagazine.com/news/2008/06/the_reality_tests_1.php) provided by IsThatSo. It is very interesting and the conclusion is that the subject of reality and quantum mechanics currently points to Einstein being wrong about reality at the quantum level, even though no one would say that the moon is not there unless we observe it.

There is strong evidence against local realism where a particle always has location, and in favor of the uncertainty principle of quantum mechanics. This statement means that there is no reality of location of a quantum particle unless we observe it. Don't be confused and misinterpret that statement. The moon is still there even if we don't observe it, but the quantum particulars are not real, they are probabilities and undetermined until observed.

I hope you can get an idea of what I am talking about. It does get into some areas of uncertainty :).

Yeah I think I know what your talking about, it was discovered with the double slit experiment as far as I know.
An electron acts like a wave but when observed it acts like a particle. My personal opinion is that at the quantum scale, the line between a particle and energy could be a bit fuzzy. The act of observing adds energy to the system, just enough quantum energy to appear as a particle of matter, maybe. In other words the electron is entangled energy wave that when energy is introduced (say another electron) it untangles a bit, frees the wave of energy (becomes less entangled) and searches to balance out to a stable position. When you add energy it acts like a particle, in other words the energy shifts location. The entangled electron energy is stable when paired with a proton. Matter is entangled energy after all. At our scale it’s unnoticed but we see it as chemical reactions, atoms bonding into molecules and molecules breaking up into individual atoms. And we use electrons wave function to transmit energy and convert it into usable energy to power our appliances.
Something like that I could be completely wrong so don’t quote me on this :)

I think the mathematics is called the uncertainty principle, not sure.

I think what you’re looking for is how can consciousness affects the universe.

I dont have time to write a theory just yet need to go to cricket training.

Simply put, how does consciousness effect a universe of action and reaction? How does free will add or subtract to the universe? In other words our consciousness forms an Idea which can be put into action.

I'll get back to you later, need to go im running late.

I dont have time to write a theory just yet need to go to cricket training.

Imagining the little fellows doing little push ups and synchronized chirping!

lol

your probably right in the scheme of things bugger all

Consciousness allows the universe to view itself.
The big question is what is the potential of consciousness?

Metaphorically: Are we really awake or just sleep walking. To be mindful or to be closed minded.

If biological evolution is a guide for greater survivability, Id say it’s to disperse the seeds of life though out the universe. Gain knowledge for technological advantage. Shape the environment to support life systems. Let nature be our teacher.

I guess we should be the caretakers of life on earth foremost. I can only imagine how advanced eco-tech would be if earths life systems was felt to be more valuable than weaponry. Life support systems are high priority in space ships, why not for space ship earth?
Wouldn’t it grand if technology evolved to be the nurturer and provider for life systems.

At the moment we are doing what all life has done, consume and let nature do the rest. It may not be so forgiving. Our potential as a species is much greater I would think.

Free will leans toward a symbiotic existence or a parasitic existence.


Hi Swarm, seen any more little fellows lately :)

Hi Swarm, seen any more little fellows lately

Oh I see crickets quite frequently this time of year. The poor fellows have it hard when the weather turns cold. They like to beg at the door for warmth, but I'm afriad we callously turn them away.

I never knew they had a training program.

Consciousness allows the universe to view itself.

Careful about over anthropomorphizing or you'll end up believing in god.

I really do hope these two links can cleer the confusion.


What is Pantheism
http://home.utm.net/pan/whatis.html


Cricket
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=FRXmPe8I7QQ&feature=related