One thing I've noticed in about liars is that they are almost always the first one to point the finger and start calling people liars. They do it because subconsciously they figure most people are as willing to lie as they are.

Conversely, people who don't lie seldom call people liars, because it's one of the last thing that occurs to them, because they assume people wouldn't stoop to that level (because they don't).

Perhaps that begs the question that tiassa posed:

What's a lie, what's the truth?

IMO, a lie is an intentional, malicious distortion or fabrication presented as actual.

Truth is as close to "reality" as you can tell. Something like that. It's the result of honest inquiry of self, admitting shortcomings, admitting faults when encountered.

But that's just a cursory examination, perhaps not particularly well founded. I'd like to delve deeper, would you like to come along?

Lying is done for many reasons and they even call it different names today. One type of lie is called "pandering". They say it isn't really a lie if a polictico says different things about the same thing to different people, they were just "pandering". to get those people to vote for them.

Another lie they renamed is a "little white lie' in which your to say something that isn't the truth to someone for you wouldn't want to hurt their feelings. If you were to know that one of your friends were cheating on their husbands and the husband asked you if you knew about his wife cheating and you said "no'. A little white lie to cover a sticky situation.


To not tell the "whole truth" about things is another way of lying but covering it up again.


To put a spin on whatever is happening is another way of "stretching the truth".

One thing I've noticed in about liars is that they are almost always the first one to point the finger and start calling people liars. They do it because subconsciously they figure most people are as willing to lie as they are.

Conversely, people who don't lie seldom call people liars, because it's one of the last thing that occurs to them, because they assume people wouldn't stoop to that level (because they don't).

Perhaps that begs the question that tiassa posed:

What's a lie, what's the truth?

IMO, a lie is an intentional, malicious distortion or fabrication presented as actual.

Truth is as close to "reality" as you can tell. Something like that. It's the result of honest inquiry of self, admitting shortcomings, admitting faults when encountered.

But that's just a cursory examination, perhaps not particularly well founded. I'd like to delve deeper, would you like to come along?People are that way about most dishonorable or simply unhousebroken behavior. My parents always used to rail at me about being selfish, and it wasn't until I got old enough to talk about it with other kids that I discovered that they were just about the most selfish parents of anybody I knew.

I think we all do it to a greater or lesser extent. Probably because the faults we have in ourselves are the ones we observe most easily in others. A spouse with a roving eye is more likely to spot somebody else's spouse checking out the babes/hunks than to notice them shortchanging waiters or second-gearing stop signs.

Regarding the definition of a lie, a lie of omission falls into an interesting category. If you simply don't tell somebody something because they didn't ask, under what conditions is that a lie? Are you expected to know whether they would really want to know about it? Are you allowed to observe the "don't ask, don't tell" policy with everyone you know about stuff you'd rather not talk about? Do you get to second-guess what subjects are uncomfortable for people and spare them the discomfort? How about people who are afraid to find out that something is going on that would mortify them, do you abide by their wishes and leave them in the dark, or is it your duty to inform them of something that might be affecting their life?

I don't think you can lie if you don't know you're doing it, but it gets tricky because people are habitual. They discern a tool for handling situations, like white lies. After a while if they aren't paying attention, they do it without noticing. At that point is it a lie? The didn't intend to mislead someone, they simply weren't aware of their behavior. It's a lie if when faced with evidence of what they did they insist they didn't.

My dad can run around the world in 3 seconds!

Is there a term for a lie you tell yourself, and eventully you belive that the "lie" is the truth?

Is there a term for a lie you tell yourself, and eventully you belive that the "lie" is the truth?

It's called "denial". ;)

My parents always used to rail at me about being selfish

Mine, too! I think I even heard a friends parents say the same thing to him...

Its not uncommon.

Is there a term for a lie you tell yourself, and eventully you belive that the "lie" is the truth?

Indeed. I believe it's called science. It is also known as religion.


In any case, a lie implies falsehood, which in turn implies truth. Avoiding the idea of an objective truth for the moment, it's obvious that a lie can only be such if and only if the truth is known. Ergo, a person unaware can tell a lie.

I disagree glaucon. Isn't being wrong different that lying? Isn't telling the truth necessarily "as you know it"?

I disagree glaucon. Isn't being wrong different that lying? Isn't telling the truth necessarily "as you know it"?

Which is exactly my point: telling the truth 'as you know it' can lead to a lie if 'as you know it' is incorrect. Being wrong can only be different from lying ifone assumes that there is a 'correct', which in turn assumes an objective truth.

Do we sometimes have a moral responsibility to lie? ex. existence of Santa Clause to children.

How about when someone asks you “how are you?” and you answer “fine thanks”. But you really aren’t fine. Is that lying?

That happened to me all the time at my last job. People come up to you and ask "How are you doing" or something of that nature. And you don't wanna ruin the image of the store so you say nice things, and try to keep a short friendly convo going untill they leave, even tho you really don't want to talk to this person about how thier cat was found hidding in the closet this morning.

You made a good point dsdsds.

EDIT: How far moral lies go tho? Is it moral for our governments to not tell the truth becuase "its for our own good"?.

well, what is truth, and thus, what is a lie? :m:

"Is there a term for a lie you tell yourself, and eventully you belive that the "lie" is the truth?"

pathological lying, it can be used to beat polygraphs. you beat it into yourself so much that you almost totally beleive it.

The more people lie about something, the more that lie becomes the truth!

http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=21205

I think it's more a case that they have lied so much about that 'something' that they've convinced themselves that it is the truth.

This thread is pretty interesting, I was a police officer for 7 years and have been to many classes dealing with finding the truth during interviews with suspects and victims, you can usually tell when someone is lieing a person does things that give them away theres too many things to really count or say but you can look it up its not that hard to find a list. as for Lieing to children about santa well that has to fall under something else, in a way it makes the child happy and keeps a legend going I guess its all about morals and ethics.

Also yes people can lie and still pass a polygraph test, even the new voice stress tests that are out there, we ran a experiment one time to see if we could lie and still pass the voice stress test, a few of them failed but most of us passed lieing on every question, how you might ask the machines look for long anwsers IE say the word yes normally then say the word no its short and simple but say you lie about something and are unprepared for it and you draw out your no or yes anwser it will be something like nnooo or yyesss the machine or computer will in turn show you to be lieing and produce a box shape indicating a lie or possible lie, as long as they anwser normal not short blunt or long yes a person can pass a lie detector test its done every day.

Which is exactly my point: telling the truth 'as you know it' can lead to a lie if 'as you know it' is incorrect. Being wrong can only be different from lying ifone assumes that there is a 'correct', which in turn assumes an objective truth.

One assuming there is a "correct" answer doesn't neccesarily mean it's objective. A person has a somewhat defined record of what they think is truth. If they think they see you murder someone, they think they saw you murder someone. If you ask them "did you see that person murder someone?" They would be lying to say no, regardless of the objective truth.

Do we sometimes have a moral responsibility to lie? ex. existence of Santa Clause to children.

I think certain obligations can virtually demand lies, but not christmas - that's just traditionalism. Actually I don't think there's ever a responsibility that you MUST lie, it's just that the consequences of not telling the truth are for whatever reason apparently more desirable that the consequences of dealing with truth.

How about when someone asks you “how are you?” and you answer “fine thanks”. But you really aren’t fine. Is that lying?

I think it is if you know you aren't fine and are aware you say something contradictory to what you know you feel. If you just say it out of habit, then it's not really a lie because there was no intent to mislead.

I think the argument that it's "a burden" is silly, because if they didn't want to know they shouldn't have asked?

But most people look at that kind of thing as part of the social contract, so they do it because it's 'part of the rules'. So if you just see it as part of the social contract to say fine even though it isn't, I wouldn't call that a lie, but simply 'unexamined habit' - due to lack of intent.