Mike Honcho's For argument's sake... (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=84598) thread reminded me of something I started on another forum a long time ago.

Pick a topic that you feel strongly about, and argue for the other side as well as you can.
Try to honestly see their point of view, and make the best case you can AGAINST what you honestly believe.

Once someone starts, anyone can join in, but stick to the premise that you are being the Devil's Advocate and argue for the other side.

I will get it started:

The only way for someone to truly be happy is to look out for his or her own self-interest, because no one else will.
If everyone would do this it would create a healthy air of competition, which will challenge us to be our very best.
This does not mean that you should go out and kill all your competitors, of course - that would simply create anarchy and defeat the whole purpose of driving us to be at our sharpest and most aggressive - it simply means that you should not do anything that will give anyone an advantage over you and the only reason to ever "help" anyone is to do so for personal gain and competitive advantage.
It is competition which brought us as far as we have come, and the namby-pamby notion of cooperation will lead us into stagnant waters.
It's a dog eat dog world, as it should be, and the top dog gets the best meat, as he always has.

:shrug: I thought it would be fun. :shrug:

I think that, even if you can't relate to your opponent, if you can't understand their position, then you haven't truly challenged and questioned your own.

The only way for someone to truly be happy is to look out for his or her own self-interest, because no one else will.
If everyone would do this it would create a healthy air of competition, which will challenge us to be our very best.

If your parents and relatives only looked out for themselves, following your ideal...where would you be?

Competition without co-operation would make civilization impossible.

If your parents and relatives only looked out for themselves, following your ideal...where would you be?

Competition without co-operation would make civilization impossible.

I just got that.

If your parents and relatives only looked out for themselves, following your ideal...where would you be?
Perhaps I would not have been born to a poor, alcoholic bastard of a father.
Perhaps I would not have had to scrape and scrap my entire life to get where I am now.

Competition without co-operation would make civilization impossible.
Cooperation is only a means to take advantage of other people's strengths and afford you a competitive edge.
Cooperation is a deal you make with people to increase your own advantage and should be treated as such, with iron-clad contract to protect you from your competitors.

So would we not spend the majority of our efforts trying to get the upper hand over another individual (or group of individuals) rather than having the leisure to improve our lifestyle?

So would we not spend the majority of our efforts trying to get the upper hand over another individual (or group of individuals) rather than having the leisure to improve our lifestyle?

Non-sequitur.
The means to leisure is financial success - the means to financial success is competition.
Competition keep us sharp.
Once you retire (from all your financial success) what do you do with your money?
You can give it away to charity, or you can travel the world and buy that Porsche 550.

Those who are competitive can retore young - those who are stupid do not.
If I had Bill Gates' money, I would have retired at 35.

Non-sequitur.
The means to leisure is financial success - the means to financial success is competition.
My point exactly.
Since EVERYONE is in competition with everyone else won't you spend your time competing rather than actually doing anything that gets you that money?
How rich would Bill Gates be now if everyone he came in contact with tried to take him/ his business for their own benefit?
How well would they fare when the next guy is plotting for their position?

Since EVERYONE is in competition with everyone else won't you spend your time competing rather than actually doing anything that gets you that money?
I don't understand what connection you are trying to make here.
Competition is what gets you money.
The capitalist system has proven Adam Smith right time and again.

How rich would Bill Gates be now if everyone he came in contact with tried to take him/ his business for their own benefit?
How well would they fare when the next guy is plotting for their position?
You don't think they do?
Of course they do, and that's what kept him sharp and driven to caputure and dominate the market share.
The next guy IS vying for my position, and that keeps me on my best game.
Me being on my best game gets me recognixed at work and I get promotions and raises.
I am a High School drop out working as a Vice Presdient of Operations for the largest bank in the world and pulling in a salary that no one would have ever expected of me.
Why?
Because I am driven to compete and always out-perform my competition.

I don't understand what connection you are trying to make here.
Competition is what gets you money.
No, competition in and of itself doesn't get you money.
If you spend all your time fighting for promotion/ making the other guy look bad then you don't have time to get that money.

You don't think they do?
Of course they do, and that's what kept him sharp and driven to caputure and dominate the market share.
The next guy IS vying for my position, and that keeps me on my best game.
If he hasn't got your position then he isn't really trying is he?
What about fixing it so that you're under police investigation?
Convincing your family you have "problems" (of any sort - just to reduce your support at home)?
If he really did want your job he'd really compete.
And you'd spend so much time on counter-tactics you wouldn't have time to earn the money.

See?
If you're competing you ain't earning.
Dog eat dog, anything goes...

If you spend all your time fighting for promotion/ making the other guy look bad then you don't have time to get that money.
I get the promotion and that equals more money.
What are you missing here?


If he hasn't got your position then he isn't really trying is he?
What about fixing it so that you're under police investigation?
Convincing your family you have "problems" (of any sort - just to reduce your support at home)?
If he really did want your job he'd really compete.
And you'd spend so much time on counter-tactics you wouldn't have time to earn the money.

See?
If you're competing you ain't earning.
Dog eat dog, anything goes...

Nonsense strawman.
One can be competitive and still be honorable.
If, for example, a company is not honorable, they lose employees and lose customers.
Your honor and honesty is part of why you can be successful, because people trust you.
Success, after all, is the whole point.
Without competition, people get lazy and complacent.
Without honor, people garner no trust from others.
With both, you will be successful.

From my opening post:

This does not mean that you should go out and kill all your competitors, of course - that would simply create anarchy and defeat the whole purpose of driving us to be at our sharpest and most aggressive - it simply means that you should not do anything that will give anyone an advantage over you and the only reason to ever "help" anyone is to do so for personal gain and competitive advantage.

I get the promotion and that equals more money.
What are you missing here?
Because the promotion (if you actually get it - too busy competing to show your worth) won't last (too busy competing to hold on to it).

Nonsense strawman.
One can be competitive and still be honorable.
Um,
It's a dog eat dog world, as it should be, and the top dog gets the best meat, as he always has.
Also from your opening post - :)
"Honour" would be the excuse losers use, neh?

Success, after all, is the whole point.
Without honor, people garner no trust from others.
If I make it to the top why the hell should I want people to trust me?
I'm top man and they can go fuck themselves.
After all, it's a dog eat dog world...

We should get Sam to argue that the USA is the greatest country in the world and a bastion of freedom and hope - and get Buffalo Roam to take the other side.

We should get Sam to argue that the USA is the greatest country in the world and a bastion of freedom and hope - and get Buffalo Roam to take the other side.

Yeah...

It would be like me arguing that Porn is a great source of entertainment and Madanthonywayne saying it is disgraceful trash. :p

Because the promotion (if you actually get it - too busy competing to show your worth) won't last (too busy competing to hold on to it).
That's absurd.
Competing DOES show your worth, and knowing that the next man is behind you, keeps you at your peak.


Also from your opening post - :)
"Honour" would be the excuse losers use, neh?
No - "I am obviously better at what I do than you are" would be the reason that the loser must accept, and perhaps they will learn from it.


If I make it to the top why the hell should I want people to trust me?
I'm top man and they can go fuck themselves.
After all, it's a dog eat dog world...
Because the top man is only a temporary position - that is the nature and beauty of the competitive market.
Whoever is the best will be at the top.

Yeah...

It would be like me arguing that Porn is a great source of entertainment and Madanthonywayne saying it is disgraceful trash. :p

Try and make your case.
See if anyone bites.

That's absurd.
Competing DOES show your worth, and knowing that the next man is behind you, keeps you at your peak.
Shows your worth?
The same way say, winning a presidential election shows you're equipped to be president?
Or maybe it just means you're better at winning elections.
No, winning just means you won at that competition, not that you're better suited for the job.

No - "I am obviously better at what I do than you are" would be the reason that the loser must accept, and perhaps they will learn from it.
Correct, the way so many people even today just accept that the other guy is better than them.
It wasn't timing, or a lucky break or anything, just that the other guy was better.

Because the top man is only a temporary position - that is the nature and beauty of the competitive market.
Whoever is the best will be at the top.
Whoever competes hardest will get the job - whether he's qualified for that job or not.

Ok I will give it a shot...did I do this right? lol




I think Porn is a great source of entertainment. It is fairly cheap and also can be found for free all over the internet.
Anybody with internet access can easily find many sites and downloads.
This is also beneficial to people that are handicapped and may not be able to get out of the house much.
It is also great for people who are very shy or embarassed because they can look at it in the privacy of their own home when nobody is around.
It can also be used as a learning tool for young adults who are thinking about having sex but do not know much about it.
It can give them a first hand look at many different sexual positions and acts that they may not know about.
For people that are having sex but are not very good at pleasing their partners, it may give them ideas or show them various techniques to try. So it can actually enhance many peoples sex lives.
It can be used by men/ women to satisfy their sexual needs when their partners may not be around or in the mood.
It may also benefit people who find it hard to stay in a monogamous relationship. Those that find it hard staying with one person may supress the urge by looking at porn. So this actually could prevent someone who might have thought about cheating not too.

It also is a great industry because it employs a lot of men and women.
It gives those who were not blessed with a good education to find well paying jobs.
It is a great way for a single mother to support her children. She can make a lot of money and work less hours, so she can spend more time with her child.

So all in all, I think the porn industry benefits us all.

Of course there will be some poeple who will rise to the top using dishonorable means, by stroke of luck, by playing golf with the boss...
In an environment of healthy competition, those people will have a short-lived reign once they are exposed for who they are and the more suitable candidates are identified.
If not, the better people will go to more honorable company B and the fools at company A will suffer while company B prospers.

Proper competition will cause the cream to float to the top.
It's a natural, self-regulating balance.

I still don't see any need to retain "honour".
Since I'm the only one looking out for me then what need is there for it?
I don't need their respect, I don't have their trust (they want my job)...

The whole point of looking out for yourself is ensuring your success.
How many people do business with companies they do not trust? I don't.
Would you be willing to promote someone you do not trust? They will stab you in the back.
I appreciate people nipping at my heels and keeping me on my toes, but I can't abide someone stabbing me in the back and that person will get nowhere in my organization.

The whole point of looking out for yourself is ensuring your success.
How many people do business with companies they do not trust? I don't.
Would you be willing to promote someone you do not trust? They will stab you in the back.
I appreciate people nipping at my heels and keeping me on my toes, but I can't abide someone stabbing me in the back and that person will get nowhere in my organization.

Ah, so companies should be trusted but the individuals that compose it can't be, since they're all looking out for number one.
How does that work?
Nipping at your heels isn't the same as "everyone for himself" is it?

Ok I will give it a shot...did I do this right? Lol
Perfect,

I think Porn is a great source of entertainment. It is fairly cheap and also can be found for free all over the internet.
Anybody with internet access can easily find many sites and downloads.

Crack is cheap and available – that doesn’t make it OK.

This is also beneficial to people that are handicapped and may not be able to get out of the house much.
It is also great for people who are very shy or embarassed because they can look at it in the privacy of their own home when nobody is around.
So they can’t just jerk off – they need to support an industry that preys on and abuses vulnerable young women?
If they need that to get off, they need to seek help, not enablement.

It can also be used as a learning tool for young adults who are thinking about having sex but do not know much about it.
So you want to teach your children that sex is about how many chicks you can lay, participating in orgies, facials and other acts that denigrate all those who participate?
I’d rather my children learn about respecting those they are with for who they are – not see them as expendable sex objects.

It can give them a first hand look at many different sexual positions and acts that they may not know about.
So it’s a suitable replacement for parents?
Isn’t it the parent’s job to have open, honest, respectful conversations about sex and relationships?
You think porn gives them healthy ideas about sex and interpersonal relationships?

For people that are having sex but are not very good at pleasing their partners, it may give them ideas or show them various techniques to try. So it can actually enhance many peoples sex lives.
Or maybe they should just communicate with their partners.

It can be used by men/ women to satisfy their sexual needs when their partners may not be around or in the mood.
See my comment above about jerking off.

It may also benefit people who find it hard to stay in a monogamous relationship. Those that find it hard staying with one person may supress the urge by looking at porn. So this actually could prevent someone who might have thought about cheating not too.
I think it more likely that watching all these different women having sex will give them a flavor for different women and make it harder to stay monogamous.
The more jaded you become, the more thrill you need – like drug addiction.
Besides, if they are finding it difficult to be in a monogamous relationship, perhaps they shouldn’t be. It’s probably not right for them and they should stop trying to lie to themselves and just sow their wild oats.
Cheating on someone is an emotional act, not a physical one.
If you are watching porn because you want to have sex with others and fantasize about it while watching – that is just as much f a betrayal as cheating.

It also is a great industry because it employs a lot of men and women.
It gives those who were not blessed with a good education to find well paying jobs.
It is a great way for a single mother to support her children. She can make a lot of money and work less hours, so she can spend more time with her child.
Can’t you say the same things about the child sex industry or drug dealers?

Ah, so companies should be trusted but the individuals that compose it can't be, since they're all looking out for number one.
How does that work?
Where did you get that idea?
The company can be trusted ONLY if the employees can.
Being competitive does not necessarily mean that you are dishonorable.
Again with that strawman - aren't you tired of it yet?

Nipping at your heels isn't the same as "everyone for himself" is it?
Yes. It is.
I am going to do my best, if I expect George is going to do his best.
If Goeroge does better than I do, he gets the promotion - if I do better I get the promotion.
Why would I help George - unless that is going to help me more than it helps him?
That doesn't mean I have to slice his achile's tendon to make it up the stairs faster than he does - because if I do, frank will do the same to me.
Honor is a benefit to the competitive market.

Where did you get that idea?
The OP
The only way for someone to truly be happy is to look out for his or her own self-interest, because no one else will.
It's a dog eat dog world, as it should be, and the top dog gets the best meat, as he always has.

The company can be trusted ONLY if the employees can.
Being competitive does not necessarily mean that you are dishonorable.
Again with that strawman - aren't you tired of it yet?
So how do you limit comptetion (ie retain honour etc) if it IS a dog-eat-dog everyone for himself?

That doesn't mean I have to slice his achile's tendon to make it up the stairs faster than he does - because if I do, frank will do the same to me.
Honor is a benefit to the competitive market.
The problem I have with this is that if you slice George's achilles tendon (metaphorically) and are smart enough to get away with it then how does that stop you doing it again or it becoming the norm?
Which goes back to my original contention that you spend more time plotting than working... in fact you spend a lot of time making it "foolproof", maybe so it rebounds onto the guy behind you?
Or have you never been pipped at the post by an unscrupulous lizard whose duplicity the boss couldn't see?

So how do you limit comptetion (ie retain honour etc) if it IS a dog-eat-dog everyone for himself?
Why would you need to limit competition to retain honor?

I reject your premise that the two are mutually exclusive.
Prove to me that one can not be honorable and competitive at the same time.

The problem I have with this is that if you slice George's achilles tendon (metaphorically) and are smart enough to get away with it then how does that stop you doing it again or it becoming the norm?
Which goes back to my original contention that you spend more time plotting than working... in fact you spend a lot of time making it "foolproof", maybe so it rebounds onto the guy behind you?
Or have you never been pipped at the post by an unscrupulous lizard whose duplicity the boss couldn't see?
And the dishonorable morons who spend more time plotting than actually working will fail.
This is preciecely why honor benefits the competitive - one of the reasons at least.
Another is that you will eventually find yourself in a position which you do not have the ability to perform and you will crash and burn.
That is not a road to success, it's a road to ruin and disgrace.

Why would you need to limit competition to retain honor?
Because as I see it unlimited competition will end up as "anything goes".

I reject your premise that the two are mutually exclusive.
Prove to me that one can not be honorable and competitive at the same time.
Ah no. I don't doubt, nor disagree, but unlimited competition WILL given human nature lead to dishonourable acts.
Or am I too cynical?

And the dishonorable morons who spend more time plotting than actually working will fail.
They'll get the job and develop a scheme to keep it or move up.

Another is that you will eventually find yourself in a position which you do not have the ability to perform and you will crash and burn.
That is not a road to success, it's a road to ruin and disgrace.
Disgrace is okay if you've the cash in the bank, every man for himself and I've got the money... loser.

Sorry man, it's 6 am and I'm dying here.
With luck I'll continue tomorrow.
Take it easy dude.

Or am I too cynical?

You are.
Further, that is a baseless assumption.
I have shown how the competitive market is self regulating.
Simply denying it does not make that so.

Show me how it will lead to a dishonorable systems, without the perpetrator of the deeds collapsing before the systems does.

Crack is cheap and available – that doesn’t make it OK.

You can't compare crack to porn. Crack is an addictive drug that alters your brain. Once you become addictive, it is no longer cheap anymore. It can cause you serious health problems even leading to overdose and death. Not to mention some ppl get violent while high and physically abuse their spouses or children when high.

Porn doesn't cause you any serious health issues.
When was the last time you heard someone died of a porn overdose?
So there is no comparison.


So they can’t just jerk off – they need to support an industry that preys on and abuses vulnerable young women?
If they need that to get off, they need to seek help, not enablement.

Some men have no imagination and need visual stimulation to get off. I don't think the industy preys or abuses young women.

I think it helps many girls get off the streets and provides them with an income so they can support themselves.
Without porn many of these girls would have to turn to prostitution.

So you want to teach your children that sex is about how many chicks you can lay, participating in orgies, facials and other acts that denigrate all those who participate?
I’d rather my children learn about respecting those they are with for who they are – not see them as expendable sex objects.

I think it teaches them that there are different options out there.
It shows them that it is ok if they are different.
It lets them know that not everybody has to have a one on one, male/female relationship.
If they are gay or lesbian it may make them feel better to know that it is acceptable.


So it’s a suitable replacement for parents?
Isn’t it the parent’s job to have open, honest, respectful conversations about sex and relationships?

It is not a replacement for parents but it can show them visuals that parents just can't do.

It also makes it easier for parents that have a hard time talking to their kids about sex.

Like for the single mom with 2 boys. She can only explain things from a woman's point of view.


I think it more likely that watching all these different women having sex will give them a flavor for different women and make it harder to stay monogamous.

I think it will satisfy their fantasies enough and they will not feel the need to seek out other women.

If you are watching porn because you want to have sex with others and fantasize about it while watching – that is just as much f a betrayal as cheating.

I don't think it is cheating one bit. It is not like you are touching anybody or becoming emotionally involved with these men and women in real life. Just because you are fantasizing and pleasuring yourself while watching other ppl perform sex doesn't mean you have lost interest in your partner. It actually helps get you excited and raring to go, when you get into bed with your partner. So you actually end up pleasing your partner even more.


This got messed up in how I typed it..:o

You can't compare crack to porn. Crack is an addictive drug that alters your brain. Once you become addictive, it is no longer cheap anymore. It can cause you serious health problems even leading to overdose and death. Not to mention some ppl get violent while high and physically abuse their spouses or children when high.
Porn can be just as addictive as drugs and ruin lives.[/quote]
A lot of porn also glorifies violence against women and portray them as nothing more than sex objects and slaves, leading to maltreatment of women and poor self esteem in young girls.

The point, however, is that just because it is cheap and available, that doesn’t make it OK.
In fact, being cheap and available is a negative aspect of porn – it is readily available to children not ready or mature enough to have formed their own views on sex and what is appropriate and warp their malleable minds.

Some men have no imagination and need visual stimulation to get off. I don't think the industy preys or abuses young women.

Their lack of imagination is their problem.
The industry most certainly does prey on and mistreat women – particularly young women.

Have you ever browsed the net looking at porn sites?
Most of them are geared towards “young”, “innocent” “schoolgirls” and “lolitas”.
Many of these girls can’t be over 16 – many of them aren’t nearly that old.
If you don’t think the industry preys on young women, do a search for incest pictures.

Many of the “women” involved in porn are underage and not mature enough to understand the implications of their actions.
There are also MANY documented cases of children being abducted to be in films – young girls being fed drugs and pushed into being addicts.
Not to mention the social damage is does to self image of women.

I think it helps many girls get off the streets and provides them with an income so they can support themselves.
Without porn many of these girls would have to turn to prostitution.
Porn IS prostitution.
They pay women to have sex with strangers – often times with STD’s – and denigrate themselves.
It destroys young women’s fragile psyches in a way that many of them will never get over.
The billions of dollars spent every year on the porn industry could get those girls off the streets and into school.

Aside from all that, perhaps if it weren’t so easy to make cash whoring yourself out, maybe some of these girls will get jobs and go to school like the rest of us.

I think it teaches them that there are different options out there.
It shows them that it is ok if they are different.
It lets them know that not everybody has to have a one on one, male/female relationship.
If they are gay or lesbian it may make them feel better to know that it is acceptable.
Again, that is the responsibility of the parents.
I don’t want my kids to think it’s OK to partake in gang bangs with strangers and not use protection.
I want my kids to respect their partners (gay or straight) and approach sex with the intimacy and reverence it deserves.
I want my children to learn their values from me, not some strung-out crack whore being filled out by 6 men.

It is not a replacement for parents but it can show them visuals that parents just can't do.

It also makes it easier for parents that have a hard time talking to their kids about sex.

Like for the single mom with 2 boys. She can only explain things from a woman's point of view.
So watching porn should be part of family togetherness night?
A parent doesn’t need visual aids because sex should be about love, compassion and respect – not how many positions you can conquer in one night with the two drunk chicks you met at the bar.

And the last thing those boys needs is a porn star’s perspective on sex and love.

I think it will satisfy their fantasies enough and they will not feel the need to seek out other women.
Porn, like every other drug, escalates.

I don't think it is cheating one bit. It is not like you are touching anybody or becoming emotionally involved with these men and women in real life. Just because you are fantasizing and pleasuring yourself while watching other ppl perform sex doesn't mean you have lost interest in your partner. It actually helps get you excited and raring to go, when you get into bed with your partner. So you actually end up pleasing your partner even more.
You are watching because you partner obviously doesn’t please you.
Rather than leaving your partner or having an honest, frank discussion about your problems, you turn to another person to fulfill your desires.