How can one become desireless when they have the desire to become desireless?


Rowen:confused:

Perhaps if that state is the path rather than the destination, it is not something to be reached, but something to do?

some personal process in everything=

with desire

first I desire something
than I desire to not desire it
than I make plans to forget my desirous feeling, replace it
with other feelings or thoughts
then I forget my plan

"I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who
conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is the victory
over self."

Aristotle
(384-322)

Greek philosopher

Desire is related to ego. To despell desire you must despell the ego.

Susan that technique seems kind of like escapisme too me. Correct me if you think I am wrong.

okay, maybe, but escapism is my life.
that's been stated before.

Why live in escapisme? You are a truth seeker right? How will you ever advance if you keep on running?

Originally posted by susan
okay, maybe, but escapism is my life.
that's been stated before. That is a logical and normal attitude. Not everyone was born a fighter right?
Besides, I think it isn’t as much been an escapist or a fighter as it is learning from every single set of experiences.
:m:

I'm pretty much a hedonist.. so I'm all like "hey! embrace that damn desire there!" (just make sure it's not toooo dangerous or negative or destructive or you know.. bad)

I guess the idea is that desire causes undo suffering of the mind as well as seperates yourself from your original nature.

Originally posted by Empty Dragon
I guess the idea is that desire causes undo suffering of the mind as well as seperates yourself from your original nature.

Couldn' it be that desire could be that extra motivation of the mind that without your full knowledge if offering your mind and body in the shortest path to fulfill it.:)

Originally posted by Rowen
How can one become desireless when they have the desire to become desireless?Rowen:confused:

If in the process of achieving yet another goal if a human being becomes desireless will it be considered desierless without having desires to become desireless ?

Like HAMSOHAMSOHAMSOHAMSOHAMSOHAM leading to great good OHM

Couldn' it be that desire could be that extra motivation of the mind that without your full knowledge if offering your mind and body in the shortest path to fulfill it.

It seem to me that desire in its nature is unquenchable, and any fulfillment from desire is temporary.

Acceptance is where it's at... But now I'm desiring acceptance... :bugeye:

To be with out effort with out being stagnant. Stillness in motion.:D

To be with out effort with out being stagnant. Stillness in motion.
This is what you desire?

I desire to reach this state where there will no longer be desire because of fulfillment. To empty yourself is to become full.;)

I desire to reach this state where there will no longer be desire because of fulfillment. To empty yourself is to become full.
This would involve no longer desiring fulfillment though, otherwise you'll never reach it.

I would agree.

It is ok to desire stuff, trying to form a permanent self by attachment to the objects of desire is what is "undesirable". Basically, there are undesirable and desirable forms of desire, those that ignore the nature of reality(its impermanence) are undesirable.

From what I understand to become desireless you have to eliminate desire all together. If you desire to become desireless you will always desire something. This is not easy, I have tried many times and I can do it for about 2 days then my mind gets cought up in life's crap and I loose it and the next thing i know im saying "I wish". Its kinda like what yoda said, "Do or do not. There is no TRY" If you DO this you will no longer desire desirelessness. What you get is what you get. not what you want. because you will not want. Try reading "The Art Of Happieness" by Dalai-Lama. Its a great book that should open your mind a bit.

Try reading "The Art Of Happieness" by Dalai-Lama. Its a great book that should open your mind a bit.
Hmm... Perhaps I'll buy that one after the 3 books I'm currently reading, lol.

Becoming desireless is kind of like growing up. You accept instead of throughing a tantrum.:D

Originally posted by Rowen
How can one become desireless when they have the desire to become desireless?


Rowen:confused: The same way a man ceases to be hungry when his journey leads him to a kitchen. The desire is what drives you to the final moment, and in that moment all desire is gone forever.

If you sleep,
Desire grows in you
Like a vine in the forest.

Like a monkey in the forest
You jump from tree to tree,
Never finding the fruit -
From life to life,
Never finding peace.

If you are filled with desire
Your sorrows swell
Like the grass after the rain.

But if you subdue desire
Your sorrows shall fall from you
Like drops of water from a lotus flower.

This is good counsel
And it is for everyone:
As the grass is cleared for the fresh
root,
Cut down desire
Lest death after death crush you
As a river crushes the helpless reeds.

For if the roots hold firm,
A felled tree grows up again.
If desires are not uprooted,
Sorrows grow again in you.

Thirty-six streams are rushing toward you!
Desire and pleasure and lust. . .
Play in your imagination with them
And they will sweep you away.
Powerful streams!
They flow everywhere.

Strong vine!
If you see it spring up,
Take care!
Pull it out by the roots.

Pleasures flow everywhere.
You float upon them
And are carried from life to life.

Like a hunted hare you run,
The pursuer of desire pursued,
Harried from life to life.

O seeker!
Give up desire,
Shake off your chains.

You have come out of the hollow
Into the clearing.
The clearing is empty.
Why do you rush back into the
hollow?

Desire is a hollow
And people say "Look!
He was free.
But now he gives up his freedom."

It is not iron that imprisons you
Nor rope nor wood,
But the pleasure you take in gold
and jewels,
In sons and wives.

Soft fetters,
Yet they hold you down.
Can you snap them?

There are those who can,
Who surrender to the world,
Forsake desire, and follow the way.

O slave of desire,
Float upon the stream.
Little spider, stick to your web.
Or else abandon your sorrows for
the way.

Abandon yesterday, and tomorrow,
And today.
Cross over to the father shore,
Beyond life and death.

Do your thoughts trouble you?
Does passion disturb you?
Beware of this thirstiness
Lest your wishes become desires
And desire binds you.

Quieten your mind.
Reflect.
Watch.
Nothing binds you.
You are free.

You are strong.
You have come to the end.
Free from passion and desire,
You have stripped the thorns from
the stem.
This is you last body.

You are wise.
You are free from desire
And you understand words
And the stitching together of words.
And you want nothing.

"Victory is mine,
Knowledge is mine,
And all purity,
All surrender.

"I want nothing.
I am free.
I found my way.
What shall I call Teacher?

The gift of truth is beyond giving.
The taste beyond sweetness,
The joy beyond joy.

The end of desire is the end of sorrow

The fool is his own enemy.
Seeking wealth, he destroys himself.

Seek rather the other shore.

Weeds choke the field.
Passion poisons the nature of man,
And hatred, illusion, and desire.

Honor the man who is without
passion,
Hatred, illusion, and desire.

What you give to him
Will be given back to you,
And more.

Source: Dhammapada (http://www.edepot.com/dhamma.html)

I'd argue that often it is better to try and educate than use the "Talk to the Dhammapada, cause the self ain't listening" approach. No offence intended toward you Evilpoet. I see a lot in you.

Siddhartha,

None taken. I see where you are coming from. :)
I have just one more thing that I would like to add
before I jump out of this thread:

"Never confuse the finger pointing at the moon
with the moon itself." -Chinese proverb

Originally posted by EvilPoet
Siddhartha,

None taken. I see where you are coming from. :)
I have just one more thing that I would like to add
before I jump out of this thread:

"Never confuse the finger pointing at the moon
with the moon itself." -Chinese proverb Yeah, often people have come to me like I'm the Buddha himself because I have relayed some wise words. It's something I need to learn myself too.

I would add only that the desire or lack of it is a choice, a trade-off and you must first understand what it is you're trading to know if you really even want to.
desirelessness does not promise happiness (which has it's root in happenings), it promises peace. i wonder if the difference is clear. imagine a small child, at school a fellow student calls him stupid and such things ruin his day, indeed, seemingly his life. but when his mother gives him some candy at the store, this gratifies his day and seemingly his life.
as we grow, what ruins our days and seemingly our lives is bills and evictions, but what it takes to brighten our days is sex or stacks of money (or whatever it is for you, the scales are the point, not the objects in particular). what happiness is is the fulfillment of that desire. what peace is is the lack of said desire for happiness.
i'm not so much making a point on the process of becoming desireless, as understanding what desirelessness means. it doesn't meqan that you stop wanting, that is only the side effect. desirelessness is more about non-expectation than actual lack of desire. it is, again a trade off. it is where a person says, "i understand that in order for the balance of the universe to be complete i must have x number of unhappy times in exchange for x number of happy times, i would rather not the exchange at all, and just have peace, neither happy nor sad, but in fact, freedom from the entire concept of happy or sad. i would rather not have expectation, because i understand that if what i expect is fulfilled, then i am happy, which is fleeting and only feeds into a new desire of desiring to maintain this happiness, and i am not interested in fleeting. if what i expect does not come about, then i am disapointed, which leads to the new desire of avoiding said feeling, and i am not intersted in avoidance. i understand that for there to be one, there must be both, and i am not interested in anything that is fleeting."
understanding the above comment is peace in itself. the great irony is that instead of happiness you get joy, the distinction being that happiness is based on the external happenings, and joy comes from within. when a person is desireless (for short) they now have the ability to truley appreciate a thing or activity and not just the feeling associated with it. i hope this makes sense.

when one Stops desiring, when one is detached from his desires that doesn't mean he can no longer enjoy things.

One wil no longer desire sex, drugs, love, material things... But that doesn't mean that when one has sex he can not enjoy it, he just not desires it.

The problem in our lives is that we are constantly wanting things, constantly seeking enjoyment. And when we get what we want, then we want the next Thing for enjoyment. This is how we fill our lives.

When we are doing something we don't like, then we desire to stop doing that, and to go do something pleasant. But most of the time, the desire to stop and "wanting to do something else", creates more suffering then the actual act of the unpleasant thing itself.


When 2 men are climbing the mount everest. And one of the two men constantly says to himself :
"Man, I wish this was over. I wanna be at the top, I wanna reach the top. It's cold here, help me. etc..."

And the other man says to himself while climbing:
"how beatiful it is here, and the way the wind numbs my face, its fantastic. The sun here is so beatiful, this is wonderful, etx..."

who do you think suffers the most while climbing, and who will enjoy the Top the most.

The guy who wants the top will think "Did I go trough all this for this!!"

And the other guy will say "After that wonderfull climbing I also get to see this? Wonderfull"


We suffer trough desire, so if we could stop desiring we could enjoy the good times, and don't care for the bad times.

When we would be doing something unpleasant, we would just do it, get it over with, and don't care about the fact that it is unpleasant.

Is want desire?

What if I desire to satisfy a need?

To understand that desire is reality and to accept that reality and desire for enlightenment is good.

A desire for enlightenment is not bad.

Originally posted by thefountainhed
Is want desire?

What if I desire to satisfy a need?

To understand that desire is reality and to accept that reality and desire for enlightenment is good.

A desire for enlightenment is not bad.

Your desires cloud your mind, they make the journey much harder and much less pleasant. If you reach the goal at all.

If you desire to satisfy a need, then you are suffering when you cannot fulfill that need. If you are thirsty, by all means, go drink some water. But what if you can't? Then you will suffer!

Havent you been on a long walk somewhere, withouth anything to drink, haven't you suffered becouse of it.
Or when you are working, don't you suffer when you keep looking at the clock, for time to pass. That is becouse you desire to go home.

If you wouldn't desire those things, you would still be happy if you got home, and your work will go alot faster. don't u use this trick: "ndon't look at the clock while working, so time goes faster".

Desire isn't wrong, but when you become a slave to your body's desires, that is wrong.

Enlightment is, in fact to be "free from all desires". So you say desire is a reality, then you obviously don't know what you are talking about, becouse the goal of enlightment is to "stop desiring".

Before you can reach enlightment, you must first change your state of mind, and start to think different. Reprogram your mind!

when you are thirsty, you still feel your body is thirsty. But you do not care, your mind does not suffer from it, becouse you don't see your body as yourself. Of course you will go drink some water if you can, becouse you have to take care of your body, but it has nothing to do with yourself.

It is as if you have a son, and he tells you "dad, i have to go drink something, i am realy thirstey" you have no pain at all from his thirst, but you wil still give him something to drink. Becouse else he wil dehydrate, and you don't want that for your son, becouse you love him.

here you are your mind, and your son is your body.

another example:

You have a car, and you like your car, its convienient. You can use it to drive around. You almost cannot exist without it. But when somewone kicks your car, or when you wreck it, do you feel hurt. Not much right, just your wallet. And off course, you can't drive around, but that is not all to bad. But stil, you do go to the garage to get your car tuned once in a while.

That is also a good example i think, of how you should view your mind-body relationship. While you are your mind, and the body is the car, in this example.

Just some examples to give perspective on the theory

I am convinced desire is a natural part of being human. It seems unnatural to try and fight it off.

Originally posted by invisibleone
I am convinced desire is a natural part of being human. It seems unnatural to try and fight it off.

The trick is to make it a complement to the rest of your goals. Desire unchecked can lead to tragedy.

Originally posted by invisibleone
I am convinced desire is a natural part of being human. It seems unnatural to try and fight it off.
has it occured to you that desire is unnatural? that our natural state is that of understanding and not that of wanting? that we are, in fact, through our social distincitons and upbringing living against nature? that going beyond the desire is not a murder, but a free-setting?

to say that desire is natural because we have it from very early on in life is like saying that because we are born with very little communication ability and no speaking ability, then it is unnatural to speak or communicate proficiently.

its natural for your body to have desires. But there is a difference between you and your body!

Your body's desires are not your own, but you have to decide to fullfil them or not. If you're body is ill, then heal it. But do not mistake, it is not you who is ill, so you have no harm from it. you do it out of care for your body.

I do not say that to fight desires is right and good for you. If you belief some other thing, then that is your right.

It is what I and budhist texts state. Nothing more, I say it as I see it, do with it what you will.

Unami,
If I desire enlightenment, it is not wrong. I must first desire enlightment to pursue enlightenment, regardless of what enlightenment is.

Not all desires are bad. It is false to insinuate that. A desire for the virtues is good if that desire is pursued. A desire for the temporal/vices is bad. A desire for the virtues is not bad even when not pursued. How is a desire for world peace bad?

Originally posted by thefountainhed
How is a desire for world peace bad?
there is a major misconception. it sis not about desire in itself, it is about desire for outcome. expectation.

i desire yesemina. is that so wrong?

'Right' and 'Wrong' are conceptions of your ego-self, they are impermanent and have no inherent existence. Desires are impermanent and have no inherent existence. Your ego-self is impermanent and has no inherent existence. All phenomenon are this way.

Therefore to argue about what is right to be desired and what is wrong to be desired only leads you deeper into the follys of the world you are enmeshed in, desires ARE but they are not inherent.

Enlightenment itself is an impermanent phenomenon and can not exist from its own side, it has causes: The release from ignorance. If it existed from its own side it would have no cause. Once it is attained it no longer exists to the conceptual mind perceiving it. Thus it is also with the desires.
In a sense you must desire to become desireless in order to become so, your desire will lead you to perform the neccesary action, the action is to eliminate the desire.

'Desire to be desireless' - If there was nothing to be saved from, then why should we be saved?

that is true, it is not a question of right and wrong, etc...

the reason for this reasoning is that it isn't normal reasoning. It is a bit abstract and illogical, that is why it is hard to explain. iIll try to clarify how i see it:

At first, as normal human being, you desire to be desireless, to be enlightend. But on the way to becoming enlightend, you stop "desiring to be desireless", your state of mind changes, and you start to do the work to become desireless without a desire.

That step is necesary, becouse before you become desireles, you must stop desiring that, else you cannot become desireles while you still "desire to become desireless".

Off course, your average joe, who decides to seek enlightment and become desireless, will desire enlightment at first. But as he progresses he will begin to stop desiring that, and eventually become enlightend...

Its not a one second transition, were you desire to become enlightend, and then, at the end of your meditation and trainingachieve it. It is a process, it happens, gradually.

like a man who trains his muscles, he is not able to lift 1 ton at a second, but as he progresses in his training, he always achieves higher weights, untill he can lift the 1 ton. He becomes stronger and better at weight lifting as he progresses. As a person mediating becomes les desiring as he progresses, until in the end, he desires nothing, and is enlightend.

I have one question, i do not believe that being desireless = enlightment, am I correct here?

Dear spookz:

You may NOT desire yesemina. But in accordance with pure yogic thought, you may have SEX with yesemina. There is a difference.

Dear Linus:

You are quite right in that the nature of desire may include desiring a certain outcome or expectation. I feel that most people are confusing, and do confuse desire and action. One can take action. It is impossible to avoid this. But you must avoid outcome, expectation, emotion or any other thought or emotion that would cause you to remain or become “attached” to this action you take. All ties to the world MUST be gotten rid of. That is the underlying tenet behind becoming desireless. However, here is another extremely important facet to this "desireless" state of being. It is the notion that in taking pure action and having no desire, we build and create NO MORE KARMA. Karma binds us to the earth as well as it MUST be repaid.

Dear exsto human:

You state “Enlightenment itself is an impermanent phenomenon and can not exist from its own side, it has causes: The release from ignorance.”

Enlightenment does bring a release from ignorance it is true for ignorance is the cause of ALL misery. However, enlightenment is not an impermanent phenomenon. True enlightenment causes a “BIRTH” of a new person.

“We are born into the world of nature; our second birth is into the world of spirit.” - Bhagavad Gita

I have gone into this subject in the Philosophy section, but I will state it here as well. There is buried in yoga the concept of a “hidden” being. The Upanishads celebrate Brahman as “implanted in the cavity of the heart.” The heart itself is referred to as hridayam, or “it is he” who dwells “in the heart.” I suggest to everyone that this is a “real” being and not a temporal one. It is a being of spirit. It is immortal. When this spirit ascends the throne, you may consider yourself enlightened. This being will think, act and IS you. A different you. It is the DIVINE YOU that YOU really are. Not the arrogant imposter living under the false hierarchy constructed by your ego.

Dear UnaM:

I believe you are quite right in stating that being desireless does NOT equal enlightenment. As stated earlier, ALL ties with earth must be broken. ALL attachments severed. There are many components of this, not just becoming desireless. For one, we must not "turn" thoughts. This is explained in the Yoga Sutras. It is easily said but not so easily accomplished.

The end result of all this very arduous work is the emergence of this immortal being, for as stated above, this “hidden” one living in your heart MUST ascend the throne before one can be considered truly enlightened and a Master.

Sat Nam to all,


NEMESIS

Originally posted by NEMESIS
Dear spookz:
But in accordance with pure yogic thought, you may have SEX with yesemina.


I doubt that Yesemina agrees.

I will toast to Yesemina's good sense!

Originally posted by NEMESIS
Dear spookz:

etc...

I agree to this, i couldn't have explained it better.

You state “Enlightenment itself is an impermanent phenomenon and can not exist from its own side, it has causes: The release from ignorance.”

Enlightenment does bring a release from ignorance it is true for ignorance is the cause of ALL misery. However, enlightenment is not an impermanent phenomenon. True enlightenment causes a “BIRTH” of a new person.

It is my belief that you are correct in one aspect, enlightenment does cause a 'birth', I however am not enlightened and cannot say much more on this.
You have however not provided a counter arguement to my statement 'enlightenment is an impermanent phenomenon', the problem is in the way you(and I for that matter) percieve the concept of enlightenment.
I will try and explain my reasoning to the best of my ability, the state that is found in full enlightenment is a permanent thing, it has no cause and no end. It does not 'begin' with the attainment of enlightenment, infact it is ever present and it is simply something that is realized. 'enlightenment' however is just a word, and it does not exist inherently. If it existed inherently it would have no cause, however it is caused by the realization of the profundity that it itself implys and ends when there is no ego-mind left to preceive it. Emptyness as described by Mahayana Buddhism is the true permanent nature of all phenomenon, the mind that sees this (permanently) is the Buddha-mind, the enlightened mind. This means that to the Buddha-mind 'enlightenment' does not appear as a permanent phenomenon, simply the emptyness of enlightenment(and all else) appears and because this is the true nature of enlightenment, it can correctly be named impermanent. :)

Originally posted by exsto_human
You have however not provided a counter arguement to my statement 'enlightenment is an impermanent phenomenon'...

Buddhism is the true permanent nature of all phenomenon, the mind that sees this (permanently) is the Buddha-mind, the enlightened mind. :)

Dear exsto_human:

I believe you have provided your own counter argument as you have stated both sides of the coin. So which is it that you believe and which am I to argue?

To begin with, I follow yogic thought, NOT Buddhism. That might lend a disparity in terminology and viewpoint. Having said that, I find nothing in the above statement as regards Buddhism to disagree with. I am in agreement that the enlightened mind is the permanent mind, part of the immortal being that is born.

I suggest to you that part of the problem may be semantics and methodology in arriving at how precisely we are using the word, "enlightenment." To me it is the end process. That which occurs when one has this new birth. It does not refer to the process as in, "Boy, I'ma gonna get me some enlightenment today!" One can say they are on the road to enlightenment or learning how to attain this state. In my opinion, this would be proper usage of the term.

The term enlightened refers to the state of being where one is not dependent on the outside sun for light. It actually means that one has found their own source of light inside. Therefore, when one refers to the state of being empty or emptiness, it refers to no longer being filled with this false light that causes shadows and images to be cast upon the wall of the cave. Without seeing illusion, we can then see truth. In terms of this being always having been there, I can only present this analogy. If I meet someone today should they say to me, "Well, no you couldn't have met me today because I've lived on earth for 20 years?" I suppose another point that you may be making is the "enlightened" mind would not see itself as enlightened? I suggest to you that this is impossible! In seeing only truth one would certainly be able to ascertain the truth in that they were indeed enlightened.

To tell you the absolute truth in regard to this whole discussion, I find it much more important that we are in agreement about this "birth" that occurs. It's amazing to me that you just accept this without having felt it. I truly admire you for that. As to what this word means, I only use it when referring to the final state of being that one wishes to achieve. If I use the methodology and parameters as defined in your post, I can see your point and can understand why you think the way you do.

Sat Nam,


NEMESIS

…. deadly Night bore Nemesis to afflict mortal men…

Originally posted by invisibleone
I am convinced desire is a natural part of being human. It seems unnatural to try and fight it off.

Correct, however even just a little self-introspection reveals that these feelings are completely external. They are of your body, not of you or of your mind.

Of course there is no body, no mind, etc, etc.. but you know what I'm saying ;)

It is not that it is unnatural to try and fight it off, but undersirable.. it is our bodies urges and desires and our violent nature that needs to be fought off for us to truly advance.

Mike

NEMESIS

Semantics is the main problem in our missunderstanding, and also the different thought systems. Buddhism relys almost completely on cool logics and reasoning while yoga will also employ levels of mysticism, energy transformations, metaphors and esoterics etc...
Essentialy there is no arguement realy, the methods are different but the result is supposedly the same. Now I am not one to question or judge which is more valid but I will allow myself this little observation, namely in the scope of experiential wisdom yoga I would say is superior to buddhism. I have felt the energy in my chakras etc... Buddhism does not teach any of these things, however buddhism does not deny them either, but rather explains that they are also impermanent phenomenon and are not enlightenment(enlightenment being far beyond all such things).
Forgive me for my bluntness, I have honestly very limited knowledge of yogic discipline and am making very many presumptions.

As for the 'birth' you mention I do in no way 'feel' it in the way you might, however I can see how enlightenment or the process of it will lead to a completely new birth of the self, a new life of purity and non-suffering springing from a previous life of suffering. A birth without death if you will.



I personaly think that it is realy people who have degraded the original perfect teachings of all the great religions, for example Buddhism relys on faith for acceptance of the fact that we are continualy born in samsara, now the concept of reincarnation is a very bold statement to make just out of the blue. Obviously the great masters of the earlier times must have known astral projection and had been able to view their Akashic records for them to know their past lives and their continual suffering. Matters of such weight can never be left to faith alone in my opinion.

I find it very interesting to disscuss these matters with you nemesis, your input is most wise and the yogic disciplins fascinate me greatly and I hope to learn more about these. However I must cut the arguementation short after this, I think it is more my egos now that are doing all the argueing instead of my true self!;)

...how about...

I know that I want something, but I am not too sure what it is I want, and if I do not know what I want...then why do I want it? :confused:

Originally posted by exsto_human
Buddhism relys on faith for acceptance of the fact that we are continualy born in samsara, now the concept of reincarnation is a very bold statement to make just out of the blue. [/B]
I don't think that's true. Nothing is taken on faith.

Hmm - that is, not even 'nothing' is taken on faith.

(PS - This is the best thread I've seen in ages)

Originally posted by Rowen
How can one become desireless when they have the desire to become desireless?


Rowen:confused:

I not sure whether it is possible to be desireless. Are there any examples of desireless-ness?

Love

Jan Ardena

Originally posted by Rowen
How can one become desireless when they have the desire to become desireless?
Rowen:confused:

Hmm...
I would say: be.
What i mean by this is more than what it obvious. I shoud explain, as it is not the way, but....

When we exist in the now, there is no room for desire. Desire is wanting something we do not have. For us to want to have it, we must live in the future. We must say, "I would like to have that which I do not have now."
It draws you out of when and where you are and leads you to live in place and time that doesn't exist. It cause you to compare and worry.

Instead of that, be. Exist in the now and react. If you are hungry, eat. If you are tired, sleep. Do not want to eat, or want to sleep. Simply do that which you are doing.

Be.

How can one become desireless when they have the desire to become desireless?

Exactly!

There is no way! How futile! Stop using your mind to change your mind! There is no need to become anything other than what you already are. Pursuing enlightenment is like shopping for money.

Originally posted by spidergoat
Exactly!

There is no way! How futile! Stop using your mind to change your mind! There is no need to become anything other than what you already are. Pursuing enlightenment is like shopping for money.

Silly radioactive spidergoat.

That is the whole point. To rid one's self of desire, you must exist in a state that is with out want. Rid yourself of the conscious mind, the ego, and be at one with the universe.
It's only the ego that separates us.
To be with out being.

It really isn't that hard to understand. Its just alot harder to do, or even want to do.
Really, I guess if you want to do it, then you really don't.

Spidergoat..
spidergoat.. radioactive Spidergoat.

Man.. I like that name.

Yeah, you know the origin of the spidergoat? Scientists have placed the gene for spider silk into goats, so that when you milk the goats, you can extract spider silk protiens from it! There was an article in Science News, I think.

Just a couple of quick comments....
1. The desire to be desireless. I feel that this is like any renunciation that people make. It is not the stopping of something but the letting go. Let me explain. People who smoke will not quit until they decide they are going to. People who become celebate quit having sex when they come to the point that it is no longer a desire that controls their bodies. I feel that the ascetics of the world are extremely powerful over their minds. I know the Buddha taught the middle-way, but he also tried the life of an ascetic.
2. Enlightenment-I believe the best way to explain enlightenment would be the best epiphany someone could have. Yes, I agree that it something we have to work for and prepare for, but I disagree that it happens gradually. Once it happens it is like "POW, now I understand". IMO, there are also mini-enlightenments. These are not true enlightenment, but little epiphanies to let you know your on course.

BTW, this is a really good thread.

I don't think we can be desireless. To be desireless is a desire itself. But I do agree with the letting go comment. No matter what situation we've experienced, whether bad or pleasant, they are all in the past, just let them go and so you can have more to experience. This is lightening up - enlightenment. Once you realise that it's only right now that is important, you will remove all the restrictions that you have placed upon yourself from the past and just be in the moment and only then, you can truly create who you want to be, create yourself anew in the next grandest moment towards your next grandest version you ever held about yourself.

Also when you nolonger desire something (doesn't mean you will remove that completely, to do that is to denie yourself), such as sex, it's because you have found something higher. This is the spiritual journey we all take, the question is conciously or not.

I don't think we can be desireless. To be desireless is a desire itself. But I do agree with the letting go comment. No matter what situation we've experienced, whether bad or pleasant, they are all in the past, just let them go and so you can have more to experience. This is lightening up - enlightenment. Once you realise that it's only right now that is important, you will remove all the restrictions that you have placed upon yourself from the past and just be in the moment and only then, you can truly create who you want to be, create yourself anew in the next grandest moment towards your next grandest version you ever held about yourself.

Also when you nolonger desire something (doesn't mean you will remove that completely, to do that is to denie yourself), such as sex, it's because you have found something higher. This is the spiritual journey we all take, the question is conciously or not.
true and if you want to be desireless, aren't you desiring to be desireless? also if the goal of a person is to be enlightened then wouldn't he be desiring to be in such state? your post makes perfect sense.

Hevene,

I've read the conversations as well. He has some good ideas. Really makes you think.

Hevene,

I've read the conversations as well. He has some good ideas. Really makes you think.

It's great to hear that!!! :D

You don't become desireless from desiring to be desireless, you become desireless as a result of following the Way.

I'm sure that Lao Tzu says something like that at some point in the Tao Te Ching...

Well, who said Lao Tzu is perfect?

Lao Tzu was certainly happy, that's for sure. Ever seen the picture of the three men tasting the food, Confucius frowning, Buddha making a bitter face, and Lao Tzu smiling? That's because he knew how to get along and live a happy life, rather than critique all of the sufferings of the material world..

Yes, he did. However, his wisdom wasn't complete, just every one of us. But that doesn't mean he can't be happy.

Ah, but he obviously knew how / why he was happy then, right? He is just imparting some of his knowledge unto us. We might as well take it, right?

Of course, many of us do know how to be happy too. We can take his wisdom, but that doesn't mean they will be our wisdoms. Wisdoms are knowledge applied.

A great thread. I can only add one little thing -
"Can you have the mind of a child?"

:)

"Can you have the mind of a child?"

sure, breaded and deep-fried with a side of ranch, mmm

Well, who said Lao Tzu is perfect?
True perfection seems imperfect.

Spidergoat
What I was saying (I should've said it more clearly) is that Lao Tzu had a good understanding of the truth, however he's understanding wasn't complete just like most of us. However, he is perfect as all life is perfection itselt.

How can one become desireless when they have the desire to become desireless?


Rowen:confused:


then if nothing exists.
then it means that something (nothingness) exists.

It's more verbal phylosophy ...

I desire to retire,

for it is what I like,

for now I can go about

and ride my trike.

I go here and there,

to be so unconfined,

I always find it gives me,

peace of mind!

I desire to retire,

for it is what I like,

for now I can go about

and ride my trike.

I go here and there,

to be so unconfined,

I always find it gives me,

peace of mind!


as i said, its verbal dilemma, that can't be solved with language, since its build in language.


The idea of wanting something and not knowing what that is you want and then if you do not know what you want then why the hell you want it, is a really old conundrum. Don't think we can ever solve it with logic or argument at all........ coz there is no logic to that.

The idea of wanting something and not knowing what that is you want and then if you do not know what you want then why the hell you want it, is a really old conundrum. Don't think we can ever solve it with logic or argument at all........ coz there is no logic to that.
I don't feel that this is a conundrum. This sort of desire arises from disatisfaction, hence those who seek to be free from desire seek also, or equivalently, freedom from disatisfaction. This is one of the main motivations for, or consequences of, leading a frugal and simple life.

There's a nice story of Plato, who advocated a very simple lifestyle. He regularly visited the local markets. When asked why he did this this, seeing as how he disaproved of wealth and possessions, he replied that he liked to go and see all the things he could happily do without.

as i said, its verbal dilemma, that can't be solved with language, since its build in language.


The idea of wanting something and not knowing what that is you want and then if you do not know what you want then why the hell you want it, is a really old conundrum. Don't think we can ever solve it with logic or argument at all........ coz there is no logic to that.

As I said in my poem I know what I desire and because you don't then don't think I'm not correct in knowing what I want and you don't.
;)