View Full Version : Democracy or faith?


S.A.M.
12-14-06, 07:35 AM
Protecting Democracy Comes Before Promoting Faith

This week’s question could not be more important. Events around the world in recent years amply demonstrate that the religious freedom we enjoy in the United States is one of the essential building blocks of our democracy.

What we tend to lose sight of, however, is the price we must pay for this religious freedom: we must commit ourselves to the First Amendment principle of separation of church and state even when the principle works against the interests of our particular religion.

“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” This wise maxim, applied to the First Amendment principle of the separation of church and state, has permitted the principle to drift into disrepair. People are encouraged to think that while there may be all sorts of borderline cases and vexing conundrums about just where to draw the line, examining them will only arouse anxiety and discord--so let’s just cover everything with a fine fog of pious, presumed consensus. We all honor the First Amendment and that’s that, and that’s fine. So it would be, if it weren’t for the steady pressure of those who would exploit our benign neglect, encroaching gradually on what makes the principle work–to the extent that it does.

For instance, the Christian conservatives in the country who wish to declare that this is a Christian nation are becoming bolder and bolder in their willingness to impose their own viewpoint on those who disagree. Fortunately, there are the beginnings of an organized resistence to this takeover, such as the Interfaith Alliance, chaired by Walter Cronkite. I enthusiastically support this effort, even though I am myself an atheist. Atheism is one of the live rails of American politics-touch it and you're toast. Fair enough. Those are the current facts of life. Not so long ago, you couldn’t be elected if you were Catholic, or Jewish, or African-American. But shouldn't we install another live rail, on the opposite side of the religious spectrum?

It ought to be just as much a fact of life that anybody who declares that their allegiance to their religion comes before their allegiance to democracy is simply unelectable. Fifty years ago President Eisenhower nominated Charles E. Wilson, then president of General Motors, as his Secretary of Defense. At the nomination hearing before the Senate Armed Services Committee, Wilson was asked to sell his shares in General Motors, but he objected. When asked if his continued stake in General Motors mightn't unduly sway his judgment, he replied: "For years, I thought what was good for the country was good for General Motors and vice versa." Some in the press, unsatisfied with this response, stressed only the second half of his response--"What's good for General Motors is good for the country"-and in response to the ensuing furor, Wilson was forced to sell his stock in order to win the nomination.

Substitute "The American Baptist Church" or "The Roman Catholic Church" for "General Motors" and ask yourself whether you want candidates who waffle on this score to lead the nation. Even if it is true, as Wilson opined, that other things being equal, what's good for GM is good for the country, people wanted to know which way he'd lean in the perhaps rare cases where he had to choose between what was good for the country and what was good for his corporation. They wanted him to put General Motors firmly in second place, and we want our politicians to put the welfare of the nation ahead of the welfare of their religion as well. If they won't make a solemn pledge about this, we should worry.

Consider the situation in Turkey. There are radical Islamic groups intent on using the democratic process to vote in an Islamic state that would then throw away the ladder and abolish democracy, replacing it with theocracy. What should be done about this is not at all obvious. If the people democratically vote to demolish democracy, isn't this just like a club voting itself out of existence? It would be the will of the majority, after all. In Algeria, harsh measures were taken in 1992 to avoid just such a democratic self-annihilation, with a vicious civil war resulting. In Turkey, such a calamity has been averted, or at least postponed. In 1996, an Islamic party won control, but the vigorous secularist reaction soon led to the resignation of the prime minister. A moderate Islamic party is now in power, and it has wisely restrained itself from any attempt to impose Islam on the nation, committing itself to preserving the secularism of the state.

In the United States, the problem is no less real for being less dramatic: There are many deeply religious people who believe that they may democratically impose more and more of their creed on the nation, by simply exercising their First Amendment rights to free expression and creating thereby a climate of opinion that renders opposition by secularists politically ineffective. This is a grave danger to democracy, more subversive, in fact, than anything Al Qaeda threatens.

Many of us believe that American democracy is the best hope of the world, that it provides the most secure and reliable–though hardly foolproof–platform on the planet for improving human welfare. If it tumbles, the whole world is in deep trouble. We therefore put the securing of American democracy–America's secular democracy, with separation of church and state–at the very top of our list of priorities.

That is something worth giving our lives for, if it comes to that, but only because, and so long as, we continue to believe that America plays this role of political lifeboat for Planet Earth. Isn't this what America asks of all of us? If so, then we must each ask ourselves: do we put the welfare of the nation above the welfare of our particular religion? If you cannot answer Yes to that question, you should consider that you are not a good American, but a part of the problem: you are taking advantage of American religious freedom without being prepared to pledge your support to the principle that secures it.

We are currently asking the Shiites and Sunnis of Iraq to put their allegiance to their nation ahead of their allegiance to their religion. We must surely ask ourselves, and especially our political leaders, to make the same solemn commitment.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/daniel_c_dennett/2006/12/a_pledge_of_allegiance.html


Discuss.

Prince_James
12-14-06, 08:25 AM
"It ought to be just as much a fact of life that anybody who declares that their allegiance to their religion comes before their allegiance to democracy is simply unelectable."

Agreed fully.

On the other hand, anything which is not under the state and federal constitution can be changed by law, so I have no problem with religious people attempting to put forth legislation in line with this, as they were elected as representatives by their constituency.

Baron Max
12-14-06, 11:28 AM
"We are currently asking the Shiites and Sunnis of Iraq to put their allegiance to their nation ahead of their allegiance to their religion."

No we ain't! We're just wanting them to stop killing each other. They can be loyal to their faith if they want ....just stop blowing up each other.

I would also say that it's virtually impossible to expect a person's faith not to have some influence in his everyday thinking and doing. To think so is to be naive and ignorant of both faith and of life.

Baron Max

spuriousmonkey
12-14-06, 11:30 AM
No we ain't! We're just wanting them to stop killing each other. They can be loyal to their faith if they want ....just stop blowing up each other.

You didn't even know they existed. Why do you want them to stop killing each other? Is it affecting the profit margin too much?

Baron Max
12-14-06, 11:43 AM
You didn't even know they existed.

Sure I did ...I heard it on the news one day a few years back!

Why do you want them to stop killing each other? Is it affecting the profit margin too much?

No, it's effecting the news too much. I want to hear about the killings and rapes and robberies and burglaries, etc here in the US ....not some bullshit about damned furrinners killing each other! Makes for bad press, ya' know?

Baron Max

Zephyr
12-14-06, 12:06 PM
The idea of 'voting out' democracy is interesting. If it's the will of the majority ... but why not hold another election five years later, to check that it's still the will of the majority?

And democracy is worthless without civil rights built in, i.e. liberal democracy.

Fraggle Rocker
12-14-06, 06:10 PM
Religion is an artifact of the Stone Age. It is born out of fear, naivete, ignorance, fatalism, and irresponsibility. The further we drag ourselves out of the Stone Age, the more religion becomes a lead weight around our ankles dragging us back. As civilizations become ever more transcendent beyond their era, geography, and demographics, the essence of religion as resistance to transcendence becomes ever more of a problem to solve rather than a resource to use.

I believe the day will come when we will have to reconsider freedom of religion as a cornerstone of democracy and see it instead as an obstacle.

draqon
12-14-06, 06:11 PM
democracy first.

Prince_James
12-14-06, 06:35 PM
Fraggle Rocker:

You cannot pursue the path of freedom by restricting freedom.

draqon
12-14-06, 06:38 PM
Fraggle Rocker:

You cannot pursue the path of freedom by restricting freedom.

Situation contradicting this: I am in a jail cell, the prison guard comes to me, I reach out to him, snap his leg, and get the keys, open up the jail door, snap some other legs...open up other doors...and run around with more freedom. I have restricted other's freedom...confined them to hospitals...or wheelchairs...while have made my own freedom. same thing with Iraq...its more complex thou. :cool:

Prince_James
12-14-06, 07:43 PM
Draqon:

I was discussing political freedom.

spuriousmonkey
12-15-06, 01:39 AM
Fraggle Rocker:

You cannot pursue the path of freedom by restricting freedom.

Religion imprisons the mind. Hence you do can restrict freedom and pursue the path of freedom at the same time.

ak.R
03-05-08, 01:00 PM
religion is certainly more than non sense or a stone age product ...

from a scientific or an impartial point of view, religions represents pretty much a collective wisdom, crystallized , experienced, enhanced, tested and checked over ages by strong selective forces..; information are carried out with the help of efficient memetic techniques.

democracy in its most recent and diverse form presents certainly some success in establishing strong dynamic societies, but lack the test of time, that religion can claim for itself.

democracy, in absence of any religious foundations, needs also to be based on values that are rather of arbitrary nature eq. on belief.
the ability to believe emerges here as a necessity again.
the question of society surviving without religion is a serious one!.

in fact no society has been found lacking some religious system.. and given the huge effort associated with adherence to religion, it is hard to convince one self that it is worthless..

I think that religion, as well as any conservative thinking, are part of the balancing act a society is enduring within the framework of adaption and competition of societies and nations at large. finding the right balance between freedom and lack of it, is a constant replay in human history..

spidergoat
03-05-08, 01:17 PM
Protecting the separation of church and state protects both. The current crop of fundamentalists aiming to change this don't know the harm they would cause, they are blinded by faith. We need to preserve a secular society for the good of everyone.

Democracy can be based on values that are evaluated for their relative good to society.

Religious values are the arbitrary ones, they were chosen long ago, and do not reflect the changes that have occurred in modern life. People follow them now only because they have been codified in a book, they aren't allowed to re-evaluate. Think about how anachronistic it is to avoid shellfish or pork!

Crunchy Cat
03-05-08, 01:32 PM
I agree with everything the article stated.

draqon
03-05-08, 01:45 PM
I am Russian, for me faith is before democracy a long way to come, so having those two on the same line is out of question.

cosmictraveler
03-05-08, 02:09 PM
I am Russian, for me faith is before democracy a long way to come, so having those two on the same line is out of question.

Couldn't being faithful to democracy be accepted?

draqon
03-05-08, 02:17 PM
Couldn't being faithful to democracy be accepted?

in a way yes. But democracy itself is not something to give full faith to.

spidergoat
03-05-08, 02:35 PM
That is an interesting point. Religion insists it's more important than a political system, and so it will remain a threat to Democracy unless we are vigilant about keeping them separate.

cosmictraveler
03-05-08, 04:36 PM
in a way yes. But democracy itself is not something to give full faith to.

Why not? I'm not trying to argue but just curious why you wouldn't see it as a possibility that could be done very easily.

draqon
03-05-08, 07:33 PM
Why not? I'm not trying to argue but just curious why you wouldn't see it as a possibility that could be done very easily.

Russia existed for longer time than United States. The Roman Empire has fallen and so will United States.

cosmictraveler
03-05-08, 09:07 PM
Russia existed for longer time than United States. The Roman Empire has fallen and so will United States.

And that means what exactly? China has existed longer than Russia so is there a correlation?

draqon
03-05-08, 09:34 PM
And that means what exactly? China has existed longer than Russia so is there a correlation?

that is why Russia and China are "friends"

Mr. G
03-05-08, 10:30 PM
Democracy or faith?

All three.

hypewaders
03-05-08, 11:49 PM
The Daniel C. Dennett (or is that Santa Claus?) article was crystal-clear, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. It's a much clearer dichotomy than the "sharia or democracy" thread. On the discussion so far... well.. Hey, it's good to see spuriousmonkey posting here again.

The discussion would be more interesting if a religious-authoritarianist would please step into the fray with organized thoughts. Is there anyone like that over in the religion part of town we could invite in? (I'm afraid to go in there)

ak.R
03-06-08, 11:46 AM
if we take for example the basic premessis and foundations of many democracies like the equality before law.
we will find difficulties in proving objectively the value of this basic concept of democracy.. (i am not sure whether the founding fathers bothered even to do so).
we have to take that as a given and construct the system based on that belief. off course there can be no denial that this belief has roots in religious thoughts too (look at the American constitution for example).

science itself, as a major endorser of modern democracies, does not claim for itself the ability to explain and base every thing on rational thought.

there will be always room for superstition, belief, conviction, axioms .. in the big laboratory called human society.. and this is not a deficiency per se, but is rather a challenge, a difficult balancing act that we should wisely accept.