Now this is only one estimate of events prior to 1900. On this forum I see a lot of debate on Christian/Islamic murders of the past, this little graph should be interesting in terms of dissection:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/PRE-20TH.GIF

*Slavery of Africans are both western and Islamic. Ronald Segal, in Islam's Black Slaves, estimates the total number of African slaves shipped to the Muslim world at 11.5M-14M.

*Does anyone know what the Albigensian Crusade took place?
*Witch Hunts were Christian (not a pretty part of our history)
*The Inqusition was also Christian aganist non-believers principly jews.
*The Ottomans, islamic
*India chances are that there were more deaths than that IMO, the wars were mostly btwn Muslim/Hindu.

So let see if we can end this debate on murders of the religions.

*Witch Hunts were Christian (not a pretty part of our history)
*The Inqusition was also Christian aganist non-believers principly jews.

Oftenly they were one and the same , as a relevant ammount of witches were nothing but Jewish Kabbalists .

*India chances are that there were more deaths than that IMO, the wars were mostly btwn Muslim/Hindu.

The colonization wouldnt have played any role Ud think ?

*The Ottomans, islamic

But why isnt there a place for Khalipha in that list ?

Anyways damn that list sucks big time in logical compare .

But its nice to know though , if the Chineze beat the Abrahamists , surely atheism as a whole would be the biggest winner (with Hitler , Stalin , Mao and the whole gang)

Oh but wait I forgot , some atheists (and christians) have blamed the Jews for the plague , well u cant beat that can you .

I think the winners are :

1)Atheists
2)Christians
3)Muslims

But i mean ...... this whole compare is totally pathetic , ridiculous & ignorant .

Not to forget simplistics . Not aimed at you Nico dont misunderstand me , but at all those wonderfull peoples who try to pin it all on some ideologies .

Nico:

Source?

Ghassan Kanafani:

But i mean ...... this whole compare is totally pathetic , ridiculous & ignorant .
Not to forget simplistics . Not aimed at you Nico dont misunderstand me , but at all those wonderfull peoples who try to pin it all on some ideologies .

Suchs as...

I think the winners are :
1)Atheists
2)Christians
3)Muslims


Or...

But its nice to know though , if the Chineze beat the Abrahamists , surely atheism as a whole would be the biggest winner (with Hitler , Stalin , Mao and the whole gang)

It's handy when it suits a cause.

What is the point of this anyway? Does it really make sense to castigate peoples for slaughters of the past? Does this in any way legitimise any contemporary actions?

I agree that any US undercurrent of 'Islam is evil' should be countered and rejected - and in such circumstances raising the slave trade and genocide of native Americans is a nice reminder.

But even so, this actually has no bearing on whether actions take now are morally justified. It may help explain them, but that's all.

Forgive my ignorance, but what's democide?

It's a table not a graph Nico :p .

The Chinese top the list! As far as I am aware the Chinese are not big beleivers in religion (I hope I don't start something here). What does that say about it all (apart from overcrowding) when you look at the chart??

Originally posted by Gifted
Forgive my ignorance, but what's democide?

demos = people

-cide = murder

Hence: Murder of people.

Well surely not in England, there were hardly any jews in England if I am not correct until the 1800's. Most were killed because they were "feminists" or out of vengence.

The colonization wouldnt have played any role Ud think ?


Why yes, the Mughal,French,and British.

But why isnt there a place for Khalipha in that list ?

I just noticied now... your right.

It's a table not a graph Nico

I stand corrected :)

I reason I brought this table out is because it proves to you how fruitless this Christian/Islam debate is. The religion doesn't kill it's the followers.

Captain Canada

source ?

Power Kills (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/)

Suchs as...

I dont feel comfortable mentioning names :D

However if you do not think Islam or Christianity or Atheism are the bringers of horror , death & destruction , it really doesnt concern you . There are quite some peoples who think differently about this , read a bit here and there and find out for yourself .

Or...

What are we here , playing guess what Im talking about ? I really wouldnt know .

What is the point of this anyway?

The point of blaming everything on one specific group of whatever would obviously be the destruction of it . You would only demonize something in order to have it destroyed , no ?

And surely its demonization , no logical intention can be found since scriptures & ideas have not capability of killing , not does knowledge drive a human . Feelings do .

Does this in any way legitimise any contemporary actions?

But even so, this actually has no bearing on whether actions take now are morally justified. It may help explain them, but that's all.

IMO it does very much so , yesterday is todays reason . And if yesterday has caused today , it is only logical that todays differ from one another as yesterdays differ from one-another . As they are not the same , you can never judge them in the same way .

Nothing beats today , but yesterday is second , and then is the day after that and so on . Just because it becomes less relevant as time passes , this doesnt mean that its value disapears directly at once at the mere beginning of history .

DJ (Hint Captain Hint !!)

demos = people
-cide = murder
Hence: Murder of people.

Yes parade it around when you found your almost extinct logical semantics .

Im surprised how natural you pick it up after all those years of darkness .

Nico :
Well surely not in England, there were hardly any jews in England if I am not correct until the 1800's. Most were killed because they were "feminists" or out of vengence.

In England indeed they were mostly indeed simply pagan witches , mysticians , I didnt know it was witches on teh chart was translated into witches .

I assumed it wasnt as I saw the Inquisition mentioned seperatly as well , and they have hunted down quite some Jews who practiced Kabbala as well as Gypsies I believe .

The religion doesn't kill it's the followers.

And its not their ideas that make them do it but their feelings . Scriptures are innocent in both ways .

Originally posted by nico
Well surely not in England, there were hardly any jews in England if I am not correct until the 1800's. Most were killed because they were "feminists" or out of vengence.

There were massacres of Jews in York and London in the 1200's. Not sure what happened after that, but at present there are 330,000 British jews.

From what I know jews were kicked out of the UK first in what? 1290's? Witch hunting was in the 15th- 17C's. No connection to Jews in England.

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
Surely atheism as a whole would be the biggest winner (with Hitler, Stalin, Mao and the whole gang).Hey, why does Hitler belong in our column??? The Holocaust was the culmination of a whole millennium of European Christian anti-Semitism. You can't shift the blame to somebody else just because Hitler didn't walk around with a crucifix dangling from his neck. The people who put him in power and made his evil deeds possible were good German Lutherans and Catholics. Even the Pope was part of the conspiracy of silence, afraid to criticize the Holocaust for fear of pissing him off.

And why are Stalin and Mao in the atheist column either? Sure they were atheists, but that wasn't the motivation for their evil deeds. Communism was. After all, during the course of human history there have occasionally been other motivations for evil besides religion. Until recently there were plenty of Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, and even Muslim (Albanian) communists in Europe. And there are plenty of atheistic capitalists in America. The correlation between communism and atheism is not strong enough to make this case.

Some people even call communism a religion. I disagree because it does not worship a supernatural supreme being. But then I guess I would also have to disqualify Confucianism, the Dao, and about half the world's Buddhists.

Fraggle :

Hey, why does Hitler belong in our column???

ehm . is this a trick question ?

* He was an atheist
* His ideals/theories were atheist
* He (and his ideological companians) had this problem with the Judeo-Christian dogma . And only thing he and his liked about Islam is the clausule allowing moral justification for violent retalliation , in other words he could live with the Idea of Jihad as he already demonized the Jews as equal to it . Nico had this very nice picture on this thread about his general view on it .

The Holocaust was the culmination of a whole millennium of European Christian anti-Semitism.

No that is not true , surely traditional European-Christian antisemitism had quite an influence to form the oeveral European-Christian views on Jews , however much more relevant was the lost war , the German economic disaster and the Jewish Social-Democratic economic takeover and the fear for Judeo-communism .

Together with anti-semitism as a concept was created , and Jewish anti-semites (Marx , Herzl) developped their doctrines that would ban anti-semitism eventually in their own way . The one would become the big enemy of the Germans , the other the big friend .

And why are Stalin and Mao in the atheist column either? Sure they were atheists, but that wasn't the motivation for their evil deeds. Communism was

And communism is not an atheist ideal ? Communism is not a result of dialectics ? No Gods involved there , just forces .

Also Stalin wasnt a communist , he had his own ideals wich dealt with his own survival more than anything else . Dont think that Stalinism is some branch of communism , because Stalinism has only one dialectical force and that is Stalin self .

And Mao was a state-capitalist , but ok he had some dialectical imput .

After all, during the course of human history there have occasionally been other motivations for evil besides religion.

Atcually religion has a marginal part in motivation of evil deeds .
And the last century was one to remember .

Until recently there were plenty of Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, and even Muslim (Albanian) communists in Europe. And there are plenty of atheistic capitalists in America. The correlation between communism and atheism is not strong enough to make this case.

* capitalism isnt that much of a beautifull thing
* communism still is an atheist ideal , weither religious peoples follow it or not , weither there are other atheist ideals or not

I have to say I find your attempts to disconnect communism from atheism is just astonishing . After all , it does show how you consider your attempts to select out your problematic areas , while the Abraham section gets stuck with everybody .

Some people even call communism a religion. I disagree because it does not worship a supernatural supreme being. But then I guess I would also have to disqualify Confucianism, the Dao, and about half the world's Buddhists.

I dont even see why you bring this compare up , as in your eyes its all Abrahamism that is the core of all evil , no ? Also your attempt to bring in communism as a religious dogma is beyond amazement , but you surely are aware of this as you carefully let it go as non-religious because there is no God worshipping .

But Fraggle , this entire "Abraham did it" logics is a bit childish , dont you say ?

Are non-religious peoples less greedy ? Are non-religious peoples less hatefull ? Are non-religious peoples less subduing ?

Why is there this need you have to blame it all on one idealogic dogma , its a bit scaring really . This is so because exactly such demonization (point out/at as evil) is what Adolf was all about . I dont mean to insult or offend you , but his ideology was merely 1/3 of yours . Jewish ideology to be the source of all evil , is not that different from Abrahamist ideology to be the source of all evil .

Surely you're not a psycho genocider like Hitler was :D , but what I try to make you understand is that somebody else might be . And this somebody else will do nothing but feed of this demonization , yours or that of any other who draws such a perspective . Your theory of religious demonization would be their basis .

What really scares me is the group being pointed out is half of this globes population , of witch surely 80 or 90% lives in undevelopped and trashy circumstances .

Religion helps them have hope for another day . I know this doesnt go for the west , but I say thats your own centrist view no ?

Afterall your God dies along time ago didnt he ? Let him rest in Peace then , dont bother him with his other affairs on this planet .

Nico : In 1290's : that couldnt have ever been Ashkenazim . That had to be Sephardim . Couldnt they (Ashkenazim) have come later to England from Germany & Holland ? . I know Kabbalism was a big thing with the Yiddish peeps , Im not sure how it would go with Sephardim Jews .

But anyways all of that was just England and I dont think the entire prosecution of witches ended there . My major point really was that todays neo-wicca's & all that are rather based on very small historical pagan groups , while witches as an entire group would rather be filled with Jews & Gypsies in a historical perspective .

Originally posted by nico
*Slavery of Africans are both western and Islamic. Ronald Segal, in Islam's Black Slaves, estimates the total number of African slaves shipped to the Muslim world at 11.5M-14M.


You forgot to mention that these slaves were sold to their Muslim captors by their own people.

You forgot to mention that these slaves were sold to their Muslim captors by their own people.

Does that change anything ? We know traitors exist , there were Jews who sold out their peoples to the Nazi's , does that change any responsibility the Nazi's have ?

Ronald Segal, in Islam's Black Slaves

Can I take this man as non-bias ? The fact is that Islam's slaves had no relevance in being Black , but rather in being not Muslim and defeated .

We still have slavetraders , not trators of their peoples , but genuine Arab slavetraders :

http://www.cswusa.com/images/Photo%20Journals/Sudan_-_Caroline_w_slave_traders.jpg

Same with Christian slavery the Ashante Kingdom sold slaves for gold. Not a shock, sadly the one who usually benefits from ills done to their own people are their own people. :(