ALL ABOUT DRAGONS!!!! POSSIBILTIES OF ORIGIN (DINOSAUR BONES?) COULD THEY EXIST (FOUR LIMBS OR SIX?) AND ANYTHING ELSE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe in the Middle Ages, someone somewhere found some dinosaur bones and decided to call them dragons? Couldn't that be the possible the origin of dragons?

You seem to forget the recurrence of dragons in myths and legends of various cultures that were separated for the longest of times. Medieval Europe, Vikings in Scandinavia, China, Japan, Natives of South America even had dragon like creatures in their legends..

Food for thought huh?

I know what you mean. I just used the Middle Ages as a base point is all.

Might as well throw in the other 500 mythical creatures. I'm not particularly worried about the origin, except in the universes I write stories in.

I'd say that it's pretty likely that all of those cultures found some dinasaur bones, because you have to realize that they are all over the place. There is also always the possibility that somehow one of them survived, and that the legend of a dragon was passed down to every culture on Earth before they were divided and spread out among the planet.

Or, for a time, they could have truly existed. I don't know a whole lot about archaelogy, but is there any specific timeperiod after the dinosaurs that we know little or nothing about?

I'd guess they'd be small. A giant flying lizard wouldn't work at all, it'd be to hard for them to fly. So a small flying dragon, komodo size I guess, not small but then again, not huge like the ones from the movies.

Dragons are in chinese mythology because they didn't know what a bloody comet was. Therefore they associate natural disasters with dragons and if you beleive in dragons your one fucked up son'bitch

I just realized that I've never really considered mythological dragons. The only ones I've really had experience with are the ones in fantasy, and there's far more variety there. Perhaps some background. I'm somewhat familiar with Chinese dragons, they are more like snakes than lizards, and they bring good luck. That's more than I know about European and other dragons.

Mythology is usually based on real world experiences and then elevated to a divine theme. Perhaps crocs and gators may have been an inspiration for the creation of dragons.

Hey Pollux, we did it in Ralph's Wizard thread, let's do it here:

People disagree with each other. Normally these conflicts can be settled by a court or other authority. Sometimes it needs to go to the god or pantheon of the people involved to be resolved. But if one of these disputes arises between the followers of two different gods, than trouble arises, for each god or pantheon has his own goal, and so neither will trust the other enough to agree on anything. To resolve this, they took a group of spirits that had come to them seeking a world. They took these great spirits and tasked them with being mediators between the peoples. To do this, they were given their choice of what bodies they would inhabit, and they would have access to knowledge of the pre-existance, so that they would have authority. The spirits agreed among themselves to have bodies of the same shape, so that mortals would recognize them, and they decided on a shape that would command awe and respect from the lesser races. It was also to provide the ability to enforce their edicts.

There was some variety, though. Each dragon had his own personality, and their physical form reflected this. Size and color depended on it, and whether their skin was hard scales, impenetrable to all but a few special weapons of mythril or adamant steel, or a leathery hide, equally durable. They were not all called dragons, either. Great serpents swam in the sea, wyverns prowled the continents on foot, and the dragons ruled from the skies. They are solid colors, sometimes with highlights in a different color.

Dragons on Terra had been extinct for many generations. When the humans of Ociedies were but stone age dwellers in the doomed territory of Erogada they found themselves gorged in flame from the dragons and lizards of Sauria, and a great battle unfolded, leaving the enemy of humanity to be hurled away into the cosmos along with his foul lizards and demons.

On the planet Sauria, a place of toxic jungles and noxious gasses, lizards thrive. From the extinct dragons a wingless, colossus of a beast as large as a zeppelin has evolved. It can, at times, breathe flame, however it is especially vicious in that it prefers to track its enemy over great distances, to spy on it, and even fall in love with it, before devouring it. They are called Miragons and are impossible to destroy by any other than an archon. They live to make others die. In their eyes, hate burns.

Originally posted by Pollux V
it prefers to track its enemy over great distances, to spy on it, and even fall in love with it, before devouring it. You describing dragons or women?

Dinosaurs didn't become extint like scientist's would have you believe 60 million years ago. This theory is full of holes including their faulty carbon 14 dating proccess. The theory is used to back up evolution, and erode peoples faith in God and the Bible.
But the facts are dinosaurs existed up to the flood, and were even brought over on the ark. The world after the flood was a different place though, knocked off it's axis 33 degrees, the resulting tilt caused seasons and storms. Gone were the great forrests and lush foliage. Dinosaurs after the flood were likely hunted down and thier numbers diminished rapidly for lack of food. They are spoke of in the bible, in it's oldest known book, the book of Job:41st chapter. It speaks of the great Levithan in the seas, and the Behemoth which wanders the forrests with a tail like that of the cedar trees of Lebanon. It says they were made so that man could stand in awe of the majesty of God.
T-rex prints have been found in texas with the 22inch footprint of a man inside it. Seems some men were pretty good sized back then too...See my post on Giants in Pysoscience - UFO/bible/giants, by TheVisitor

Read the entire chapter of Job 41....In this case I recomend the Revised Standard Version.
The link is here....http://www.bibleontheweb.com/Bible.asp

Job is the oldest book in the bible, written in the time of the oriental dynasties, His comforters were oriental.
The ancient land of Sin, or Chin, ...China as we know it today, has in their records the keeping of dragons for the pulling of the royal emperiors' chariots.
Read in Job 41 about scales so close no air can come between, swords, spears and arrows just glance off like rotton wood, and the mouth of the creature breathes fire.....
Whats that sound like to you...?

Really, to me they're just a device for my stories.

Originally posted by TheVisitor
Read the entire chapter of Job 41....In this case I recomend the Revised Standard Version.
The link is here....http://www.bibleontheweb.com/Bible.asp

Job is the oldest book in the bible, written in the time of the oriental dynasties, His comforters were oriental.
The ancient land of Sin, or Chin, ...China as we know it today, has in their records the keeping of dragons for the pulling of the royal emperiors' chariots.
Read in Job 41 about scales so close no air can come between, swords, spears and arrows just glance off like rotton wood, and the mouth of the creature breathes fire.....
Whats that sound like to you...?

Sounds like mythology to me. If the flood is to be proven true, then does that mean the Babylonian gods Marduk and Nintu and such are true? It is well known that the story of Noah's flood is a complete rip-off of the flood story in the epic Gilgamesh.

Sounds like mythology to me. If the flood is to be proven true, then does that mean the Babylonian gods Marduk and Nintu and such are true? It is well known that the story of Noah's flood is a complete rip-off of the flood story in the epic Gilgamesh.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

There is no error in the worlds history the bible records before the flood, or after. If you know what I'm about to tell you....


In the beginning was "Elohim". Before He was God, before anything had been created to worship Him. Like any father, in Him was attributes yet to be expressed, His children, the Sons and Daughters of God. The first man "Adam" was a Son of God, Eve was taken from him later as a byproduct, not in the original creation, which was how she could be deceived. There were many races of animals of the earth, which were created one higher than the next, up until one was created that could represent the image of God, "Man". The closest race of animal to "Man" was the "Serpent". The "Serpent" was a large creature, ten feet tall, walked upright, and talked. Called in the bible "more subtile than any beast of the field". Many species that are next to one another can reproduce, although it's not natural for them to do so. Take a horse and a donkey, they make a mule. A Hybrid .....The serpent was with Eve in the afternoon, and Eve was with Adam that evening...it happens today if there are two furtile eggs present. There were twins Cain, of the serpent, and Abel of Adam... And the Serpent, every bone in his body was changed, and was told "on your belly you shall go"...thats why there's a missing link between man and ape today, it was the serpent.

There were two completely different races then, The "Sons of God" - the true desendants of Adam and Eve, and "The Sons of Men" Created when Eve was seduced in the Garden of Eden by a Male Serpent under the influence of Satan- Cain was the first of this race (giants) which ruled the world before the flood with physical strenghth and technology. The children of Seth, Adam and Eve's true son who replaced Abel, whom Cain slew, were the "Sons of God" . They had enormous lifespans, nearly 1000 years, and powers of healing, disernment, miracles, and all the powers accossiated with men of God. These two races mixed right before the flood, their tampering with nature caused the tilt in the earths axis, the worlds first rain which lasted fourty days and resulted in the flood and the seasons we still have today.

With this in mind, the biblical accounts are accurate, ...
There are many legends and stories from various countries that could have thier roots in the kind of world the bible describes above..

The Epic of King Gilgamesh.....
Shortly after the flood, Gigamesh claimed to be 2/3 God and 1/3 man.(If I remember right). ..He find a mysterious plant with rejuvenating properties, but the Serpent steals it from him , eats it , sheds his skin and jumps in the water and swims away....He also meets "immortals" in "the land of the living" who wonder in amazment why he is "sweating"and "exausted" from His journey there.

The story of Hercules...
Again 2/3 God 1/3 man...Shortly after the flood legends of greek gods could have been started when people of short lifespans grew old and died while others around them seemed to not age at all....

The Olympians and the Titans...
The Olympians seemed to be immortal - (long life, powers of healing, wisdom, ect...)
and the Titans that warred against them were Giants....

The biblical accounts are accurate, God has made certain of that.
The others are merely legends and fables from long dead civilizations. ....."Let every man's word be found a lie, but God's word be true."

so that man could stand in awe of the majesty of God.

Oh your post soooooo, sooooo,sooooo belongs in the religion forums... I have this extreme urge to bash my head against a wall because Im refraining from going off topic...RAR!!!!!!!! *bash!*


Ok, where was I.... Dragons? I was watching something on the history channel a while back about dragons. Their origins in history and culture... cant remember much. But I do remember that they explained gargoyles. Gargoyles got their names from a chinese myth (i think) which stated that a dragon named Garragler spewed water from his mouth (something to that effect)

Prrrrrretty crazy....

Later
T:cool:

I've actually been designing a robotic flying dragon. (I know *quack* *quack*) I haven't actually done much with this because I haven't gotten around to making a model for a windtunnel test to see if it could even glide.

I did a couple estimations, drawings, and calculations on the glide ability of a dragon (I knew my aircraft design books would be useful for something:) ). Assuming the wings provide main lift, and the head and tail are used for stabilization lift/drag only...

Given:
Glide Velocity: 5.7 mph
Length: 4 ft (head to tail-fully extended)
Wing Span: 6 ft (tip to tip-fully extended)
Wing Area: 11 ft^2

I got a max glide weight of 20 pounds.

What I don't know is if 20 pounds is actually feasible for a craft of this size. The main weight would be about 10 pounds in the actual support structure and 'skin'. I'd rather not skimp on the structure because I'd like it to have a chance surviving an 'unscheduled landing'. I came up with two possible options for keeping the weight down.

First was helium/hydrogen ballons. Apart from negating some of the weight it could also be used to balance the dragon before flight. A more exotic idea is to connect all the ballons via tubes. In order to tilt the dragon, a wire could squeeze one ballon forcing the gas out, and making that portion of the dragon heavier. However I'm hesitant to use large amounts of flamable gas in a crashable robot. (Although it would be funny to see the dragon crash and explode in a ball of flame... like in Guards! Guards! )

The second idea is to avoid heavy thrust generating equipment/fuel. I figure the thing will have wings, might as well use them. A 2-step servo piston in between the wings could provide the flapping movement. To avoid wasting energy/altitude when pushing the wings up, one way pressure valves could be used. The angle of the wings could be controlled using a simple slide joint. I was a little skeptical about artificial flapping flight, but ornithipers are advancing nicely.

3 meter span flight - http://www.utias.utoronto.ca/test/res/fm/fda-proj.html
Ornithopter Info - http://www.ornithopter.org/flapflight/home.html
Valved Skin - http://touch.caltech.edu/personnel/grad/nick/batmems02.pdf
(Need not be as complicated)
Why legs are difficult - http://www.dq.com/java/
And people who make walking look easy - http://www.kimura.is.uec.ac.jp/research

The general 'look'

Epic of Gilgamesh dated: c. 2000 BCE
Book of Genesis dated: c. 1500-500 BCE

You figure it out.

Actually, the book of Genesis, was only transcribed by Moses about 1800 B.C.
But the accounts He transcribed included accuate records dating back to about 4000 B.C. in Eden. "Genesis" records two different races or species existing...."The Sons of God" and the "Sons of Men", and the two mixed together just before the flood.


The Epic of Gilgamesh makes no claims to be anything other than fiction - but even if some of it were based on legends derived from some real events.....Gilgamesh claimed to be born a product of two different races, part God and part Man...correct?


So.....what is it exactly that your asking us to "Figure out" ?

Given:
Glide Velocity: 5.7 mph
Length: 4 ft (head to tail-fully extended)
Wing Span: 6 ft (tip to tip-fully extended)
Wing Area: 11 ft^2
I'd double your wing span. One of the races I included had wings, humaniod, about the size of a human, and I was planning of giving them a 15 foot wingspan. THere's also a diference in speed. My dragons don't flap their wings to fly, they use magic ot move air across the wings to produce lift, requiring large areas to produce sufficent lift at speed. Mine fly more like an F-16 than a B-52. They don't have the surface area to do more than glide almost straight down otherwise.

Originally posted by Gifted
I'd double your wing span. One of the races I included had wings, humaniod, about the size of a human, and I was planning of giving them a 15 foot wingspan. I calculated the lift to be 1.5 times what I'd actually need. Hopefully that'll be enough.

Originally posted by TheVisitor
Actually, the book of Genesis, was only transcribed by Moses about 1800 B.C.
But the accounts He transcribed included accuate records dating back to about 4000 B.C. in Eden. "Genesis" records two different races or species existing...."The Sons of God" and the "Sons of Men", and the two mixed together just before the flood.


The Epic of Gilgamesh makes no claims to be anything other than fiction - but even if some of it were based on legends derived from some real events.....Gilgamesh claimed to be born a product of two different races, part God and part Man...correct?


So.....what is it exactly that your asking us to "Figure out" ?

Gilgamesh was an actual king in Babylonia. Archeologists date the tablets the epic was written on in a time period before the book of genesis was written. However, genesis states a time period within the story of the book before it was written, which does not mean it's accurate and official, otherwise Adam would be credited for being the author. But there are no written artifacts left by Adam. The bible is supposedly inerrant but yet there are contradictions, just like many myth stories.

So you figure it out. The epic of Gilgamesh is older than the story of Noah's flood. Coincidence or perhaps, just like many cultures, a borrowed story?

Dragons may have come from different cultures, however they often share a few resemblances, the only dragon i remember from norse mythology would be Nidhogg who slowly eats the world tree thingy. I believe dragons were probably first created through mans imagination and fear and how certain thing were originally rationalized, like for instance dinosaur bones.if i didnt know they were dinosaur bones they would scare me too hehe.

I calculated the lift to be 1.5 times what I'd actually need. Hopefully that'll be enough. That's cool. Most authors agree on significant size in dragons. The amount of energy used to fly could not be attained through feating alone, and still have anough energy to make fire, and spend much time doing anything other than hunt. A smaller beast could, but most of mine are giant beasts, and so using magic in the metabolism allows them to eat very little, if any.

Let me continue my description post:
Rarely a rainbow dragon comes into existance, something so rare that it is considered to be no such thing as a rainbow dragon. Scaled dragons are usually dark, or metallic colors, and are usually sea serpents or dragons. wyverns are usually leatherbacks, which are generally pastels.

Owing to their nature, they use magic instictively, the most visible use beingtheir breath, usually fire, but also intense cold, poisonous gases, or other affects, as desired, again deoending mostly on personality. They also sleep for long periods of time, sometimes mellenia, and for an unknown reason, dirt and rock seems to gather on a sleeping dragon, frequently startling a sheperd who suddenly finds the hill he's grazing sheep on getting up and flying away(it's rumored that the capital city of the Draconian Empire is built in a valley formed by a sleeping black wyrm). Wyrms are evil dragons, visibly different than the good ones. Frequently twice the size of their good cousins, wyrms share many of the same traits, you can imagine what it takes to know what's going to happen and try to change it anyway.

To help relations with the races, some dragons find humans, train them in special skills, and carry them as ambassadors, giving access to many areas that would otherwise be inaccessable. It's much easier for a man to inter a throne room than a 150ft dragon, although most people know that if they have to send someone in to get you, you had better have a very good reason. These dragon warriors are an elite, frequently being mages as well as fighters.

Dragonslaying is not a good line of business to be in, frequently being illegal, not to mention the dangers of facing a dragon that has probably been preparing for your arrival for mellenia. Even wyrmslaying is frowne upon, kings usually petition dragons to take care of the problem.

Originally posted by Gifted
That's cool. Most authors agree on significant size in dragons. The amount of energy used to fly could not be attained through feating alone, and still have anough energy to make fire, and spend much time doing anything other than hunt. A smaller beast could, but most of mine are giant beasts, and so using magic in the metabolism allows them to eat very little, if any. Sorry... I think we are talking 2 dfferent things. These calcs I made were the first step to actually building a remote control dragon.

Sorry... I think we are talking 2 dfferent things. These calcs I made were the first step to actually building a remote control dragon. I probably should have started a new paragraph after that first sentence. Sorry.