Science has told us that all of our experiences are there, in our heads, and that we just can't access them.

Maybe in Near Death Experiences, all of the memories simply rewind as a last outburst of memory? Maybe, because of the mechanics and design of our brains by evolution, the part of the brain that shuts down last is the one that controls this? When people come back from the dead are they truly dead or are our systems of determining death simply too obscure to make judgements so soon?

Imagine this: Someone has just had a stroke. Minutes later, paramedics arrive on the scene and pronounce her dead. However, in fact, part of her brain is still alive, and as a final gasp it is blowing through all the memories in rapid succession; every memory she has ever had. The final memories are the bright, brilliant tunnel she sees while being born, the god-like figure who greets her with open, loving arms, and perhaps the paradise of the womb. Because the fetus, at the time of those memories, was inept in making judgements and realistically thinking beyond the basic evolutionary tools it was originally given, could these memories be almost strikingly similar in comparison?

Everyone who comes close to, or experiences, dying, would most likely have this same 'last gasp'. the ones who retell it to us are those who were privealged enough to have come back from the brink of dying and go on living. They are the lucky ones.

when I said 'as a last outburst of memory' in teh 2nd paragraph. i meant energy. sorry about the inconvienence. I am a horrible spellr when typing.

Near death experiences have been studied to some degree. While we can not know exactly what is happening as the person going through it experiencing some speculations have been made.

The white tunnel of light has been thought to be random firings of the optic interpretation of what the brain thinks it sees as it is shutting down. Shutting down from lack of oxygen to suppy the cells with the life giving sustenance it requires.

Another fact that leaves open the speculation of "soul" is that after the body does die that weight of the body becomes less. Scientific fact. For no reason, that we can account for, the body loses weight at death.

I have heard about the idea that the decrease in body mass at the moment of death relates to the "soul" leaving the body.
I think that is just the strangest thing: it would mean that the "soul" is material! Huh, I thought you just said the soul is some astral body-thing.

It all resembles too much a desperate attempt to get some scientific terminology into the further completely "intuitive" (not my intuitions!:)) talk by theosophics, antroposophics, new-agers, and other mysticists. Just like (among others) Deepak Chopra does: he keeps on talking about Einsteinian relativity, quantum states and the like when it is totally inappropriate.

Don't get me wrong: I am a "believer", but NOT a mysticist!

~Merlijn

P.S. I believe the amount of weight loss is so small it falls comfortly in the error-range of the instruments used. (what was it half a gram on a body mass of 70-80 kg??)

After leaving your earth-bound body, your Deeper Self, or your soul if you prefer that, leaves the body and takes of to go home. Home is where your Deeper Self comes from, it's called Bardo by Tibetans, and from there you can be born again......This is no religion, no believe in heaven and hell, no believe in the jezus-god figure, it is just the way the cosmos 'lives'. Sorry, it is not very clear this way, and this is told in a very simple way because my english isn't good enough. I am busy to try and translate this item, so later today I will try to write it all down in a good, understandable way. Untill then I have this text, maybe it say's maybe more, then I can...

We can walk our road together
If our goals are all the same
We can run alone and free
If we persue a different aim

Let the truth of Love be lighted
Let the love of Truth shine clear
Sensibility
Armed with sense and liberty
With the Heart and Mind united
In a single perfect sphere..... < The Sphere - Rush >

Now, you said it all right, Banshee, so I don´t have to tell them.... :D

I hope this is not too far off topic. I decided to post this message simply because of the mention of Tibetan beliefs in the previous thread. The Tibetans would often reduce a corpse to bite-size bits and feed them to the wild eagles and hawks of the Tibetan mountains. They would set the "prepared corpse" in a field an watch as the remnants of the deceased were carried to the sky. My sources on this subject are a little shaky, but they certainly seem plausible enough to warrant mention here. If anyone finds this even remotely interesting, then I have fulfilled my mission.

I find it difficult to equate the 'white tunnel of light' to a NDE when it wasn't that long ago, subjectively, that some were doing large doses of LSD to attain the 'bright, white light' that supposedly was the epitome of the LSD experience.

LSD trips never bring you really to the same light as is meant by Near Death Experiences.
Even Out Of Body experiences don't bring you to the tunnel of light, people with Near Death Experiences do see.
It is a very different experience.
It brings you to the same 'Sphere' as people with Near Death Experiences, but never to that tunnel of light.
Because, I guess, you only can see that tunnel, if you lay of your Earth-bound body for this life-time and go over to the 'Sphere' we all come from.
LSD can sometimes help make you see 'things' clearer, give you more insight into your own life and the why of it.
:rolleyes:
Sorry for the difficult talking, it is the best I can do in english, sorry for that.
;)
Bye.
Talk to you later.

of course LSD cannot perfectly replicate the white tunnel of light you see whan being born--it is a drug!! It brings things up in an altered state, no matter how clear it may seem, it is tainted. When you see the 'tunnel of light' in a near death experience, you are seeing the memory-yes the actual memory- of your birth. Nothing could be more simple because we all see the white tunnel when we are born. It is simply the light coming from the outside world. Oh, you say?? what if someone was born in the dark? well not many people are born in the dark these days that would be able to report the white light to a scientific source if they have a near-death experience? besides which, not many people have near death experiences anyway. But just maybe any light seems infinitely bright to a baby who has never seen it.

Maybe yes, we are all affected by our births. Maybe our individuality comes from genes and memories, not genes and soul? No matter what, we'll all be uniqye and beautiful human beings anyway, allways, and forever. So why should the circumstances be so touchy. If you disagree with me, You probably believe the same thing as me, but don't know it yet-or maybe never.

So much for being friendly and non-confrontational...I need to work on my people skills. (as do we all)

No, I do not agree.
It is known that some people with near death experiences see a dark tunnel sometimes...
When they wake up and remember they start to shiver and only want to forget.
Typical is, that this was most happened with people who did not so great in life, hate ful people.
When your heart is ful of hate and you pass over to the next dimension, you will find what you have done, one way or the other.
But that dark tunnel doesn't mean hell, in the biblical sin, it is a warning.
Don't pass over with hate in your heart and don't pass over by killing yourself.
For suicide is taking your own life, meaning you are not capable of living this life which is given to you.
Everybody here on Earth has problems to deal with, very hard times are normal in human life.
But you never get more then you can handle. You can handle everything that comes on your way, because you learn from that hard times, you grow, inside.
So if you take your own life, you get the same problems again in your next life...
:rolleyes:
And what the drugs are concerned.
You only should know how much from that damn LSD is given to people with other abilities to try to make them do the same under the influence from LSD or another hallucinating drug.
Just to test if people can go out of their body under the influence of that drugs, and Psychokinesis and Telepathy and even Lucid Dreaming.
For all that dumb experiments the scientists use hallucinating drugs because they think people can find their way to their ability in a lab, more easy then.
It is totally wrong to treat humans like that.
And that has nothing to do with hallucinating drugs.
I took them, I have no braindamage, no more then before I guess.
But then again, who knows am I a lot more crazy then before...
;)

GENEVA, SWITZERLAND:World Health Organization officials expressed disappointment Monday at the group's finding that, despite the enormous efforts of doctors, rescue workers and other medical professionals worldwide, the global death rate remains constant at 100 percent.


Death, a metabolic affliction causing total shutdown of all life functions, has long been considered humanity's number one health concern. Responsible for 100 percent of all recorded fatalities worldwide, the condition has no cure.

"I was really hoping, what with all those new radiology treatments, rescue helicopters, aerobics TV shows and what have you, that we might at least make a dent in it this year," WHO Director General Dr. Gernst Bladt said. "Unfortunately, it would appear that the death rate remains constant and total, as it has inviolably since the dawn of time."

Many are suggesting that the high mortality rate represents a massive failure on the part of the planet's health care workers.

"The inability of doctors and scientists to adequately address this issue of death is nothing less than a scandal," concerned parent Marcia Gretto said. "Do you have any idea what a full-blown case of death looks like? Well, I do, and believe me, it's not pretty. In prolonged cases, total decomposition of the corpse is the result."

"What about the children?" the visibly moved Gretto added.

"At this early date, I don't want to start making broad generalizations," Citizens for Safety's Robert Hemmlin said, "but it is beginning to seem possible that birth—as well as the subsequent life cycle that follows it—may be a serious safety risk for all those involved."

Death, experts say, affects not only the dead, but the non-dead as well.


Death has long been considered humanity's number one health concern. Responsible for 100 percent of all recorded fatalities worldwide, the condition has no cure.
"Those who suffer from death can be highly traumatized by it, often so severely that it kills them," noted therapist Eli Wasserbaum said. "But it can also be very traumatic for the still-living who are left behind. The sudden cessation of metabolic activity characteristic of terminal cases of death often leaves the dead person in a position where they are unable to adequately provide for the emotional needs of their loved ones."

In the most serious cases of death, Wasserbaum explained, the trauma inflicted upon these still-living victims of death may continue throughout their entire lives, until their own deaths. "Thus," Wasserbaum said, "the 'vicious cycle' of death trauma continues indefinitely."

"Everybody talks about death," Sen. Pete Domenici (R-NM) said, "but nobody seems to actually be doing anything about it. I propose we stop molly-coddling death, not to mention the multi-billion-dollar hospital, mortuary, funeral and burial industries that reap huge profits from it."

Under Domenici's new bill, all federal funds will be withheld from the medical industry until it "gets serious and starts cracking down on death."

Consumer rights advocate and staunch anti-death activist Ralph Nader agreed with Domenici.

"Why should we continue to spend billions of dollars a year on a health care industry whose sole purpose is to prevent death, only to find, once again, that death awaits us all?" Nader said in an impassioned address to several suburban Californians. "That's called a zero percent return on our investment, and that's not fair. Its time the paying customer stood up to the HMOs and to the so-called 'medical health professionals' and said: 'Enough is enough. I'm paying through the nose here, and I don't want to die.'"

Death is the one 'thing' in life, you are sure of.
Everybody dies.
That is a simple fact.
Everybody has to lay off the Earth-bound body, when your life here is done and your body is old, or dies at something, an illness or so.
Then you go out of that Earth-bound body and your Deeper Self, which always stays with you, will go to our home front.

That is why you can never 'cure' death...
Your Deeper Self goes away from the dying body and disappears from it.
No doctor can tell such Deeper Self to come back and go into the dying body again, if the body really is dying.
Sometimes, with near-death-experiences, your Deeper Self will come back, because there is a reason, you have to live on...
And maybe your Earth-bound body, is not ready to die yet.
That is when the Deeper Self decides to go back into the Earth-bound body.
No doctor who brings such people back, if your Deeper Self will not return to the body.
To much vital organs can be damaged, so sometimes the doctors can bring the heart back to live, that helps, of course, haha.
Then, with luck, your Deeper Self returns.
To much damage, no return, the next Dimension.

that is amazing, I had no idea..

Excellent!

Hey Banshee, what is the neccessity for death? It seems like from what you said that death is an earthbound event that the deeper soul follows. So if you 'come back' to life after being pronounced dead, wouldn't the idea that you had unfinished business really just be the idea that you didn't die? What I mean is, while you're on Earth, physiological reasons for death take precedent over 'deeper' spiritual reasons. If a doctor brings someone back, they get the body working again, so then your soul could return. Is it a coincidence all the time that when a doctor physically revives someone they also have unfinished business? Or does the unfinished business preclude the revival, or vive versa?

Quite Simply, Death is an Absolute!

(although myself and some of the others, including Kmguru would probably like to construct a way to map the mind and move it to a computerised system on death.. Of course would it truly be you? or just a copy? That's a set of good questions in itself.

If you had paid attention, then you could have read that I wrote in the above post, that sometimes doctors can bring people's Deeper Self back, because their life here is not done yet and the body is not so damaged it can't heal in any way.
So, now I could write the whole thing all over again. If you really want to know, then pay attention, and don't ask me to write it down twice please.
Thank you.

:)
If you lay off your Earth-bound body, because your life here on Earth has ended, your Deeper Self goes out of that body and leaves for the next dimension, the homefront of our Deeper Self.
It is not to me, to tell you how the reincarnation works exactly.
You learn in every life time. You always take your Deeper Self with you, in every life time. You just forget about former lifes, if not, your head would flow over from all those lifes, or that little lifes. Some people don't return as much as others.
But some of it always stays in your memory and in the next life time you are able to learn more and use what you learned in former lifes automatical. It has all to do with the Cosmos and life on Earth.
To much to write down now.
I wrote about it in former posts and other threads.
If you want to know, look them up and read.
If not, let it be.
Bye.
:p

made up of frequencies?

Energy resonating at a prescribed (but variable) rate, probably existing in part of every cell in the body and kept in place by the bodys own magnetic force. This energy transmits and receives information throughout a lifetime, according to how well it's 'tuned in' to some Universal wave band.

This information is xmitted to and from other places in the Universe via the magnetic waveband and is an inherent part of its evolution. The body is like a Universal nerve ending.

On death and cessation of the bodys own magnetism, the vibrating energy is pulled out of the body and is immediately attracted to another body at the moment of its conception, I don't think it can survive for long on this plane without a body.

Each life form contains energy which vibrates at a predefined and unique frequency in its own waveband, therefore I don't think that 'souls' can transmigrate into alternative life forms, except when mutation creates an alternative, which is already very close to the original. So in small incremental steps it does, but I don't think a man can die and come back as a dog for example.

I think a near-death experience is when the bodys magnetism is weakened through trauma and the soul begins to drift outwards, into the strong and information packed universal magnetic wave. On its return it has been enriched or been made more sensitive by its cosmic encounter and this may explain why people who have experienced nde usually undergo a 'spiritual' change, redifine their values and seem happier and more content.

I think bodys can be hosts to multiple frequencies, which belong to groups. Something like musical notes in chords, so some groups can be like an Fmajor some a Cminor, some a D minor augmented7th etc. So a bodys 'soul' is like a musical chord. It attracts the 'notes', which are relevant to it and comprises of many. At the moment of conception, a combination of notes are passed genetically and these define the chord of the new life. These notes can be 'played' in a variety of ways and can define a persons character or 'the person inside'. This may explain the similarities found in different 'types' of people (you know, like I may be a Dminor and you could be a Bflat). Personality, health and intelligence is probably genetic, but the way the chord is played, is what makes each one of us stand out from the rest. This is why some people seem so dead and stifled and others are so full of their own potential. It's a matter of learning to play the notes.

Thank you for your excellent post. After reading it I thought you may enjoy the book THE HOLOGRAPHIC UNIVERSE by Michael Talbot(the name may be misspelled). If you have time and an oppurtunity to read it, I suggest you do. I do not concur with every aspect of the books statements, but it seeded some good ideas that I now base my world-view on.

But your Deeper Self, or Soul, whatever, goes to another Dimension first.
Never does a Deeper Self go right into another, new born baby.
To quick...
Even on our home front there are some kind of 'strange' and unknown rules, we not know exactly.
A person is materialized energy. After laying off your Earth-bound body, this Deeper Self goes to the home front.
This is a very, very little of the Tibetan Death Book.
I don't know if I translated that ok, but it is to read in this.
And the rest is learnt, by life itself...

So many people, so many different meanings...
This is how it belongs to be...
Talk to you later.
;)

Perhaps the only reason we die is just that our bodies get too exhuasted for our minds. And, in most cases our mind is always developing, whilel the body eventually slows down. So, this out burst of thoughts could just be the energy in our brains leaving the body, recycling itself when trying to escape. How's that?

;) but isn't the brain a part of the body...right?
;) close, but no cigar....


None of us has the answer to death, since we're all alive.

so why did Piffi post this? just kidding...

Who is Piffi? he hasn't posted anything for a while. At least not while I've been here.

True, the brain in matter is part of the body. But, my point was the brain's energy it's lifeforce so to speak. So even when the brain itself becomes exhuasted. Any comments?

Your brain is something else then your Deeper Self. The brain is a part of the human body, your Deeper Self is the Cosmic Energy which makes you, you.
Because we are pure Cosmic Energy, materialized in our Earth=bound body.
Once this Earth=bound body is done with and starves, your Deeper Self goes back to the Cosmos, the homefront we all come from and from where we return later into another Earth=bound body. If necessary, sometimes a Deeper Self doesn't go back but stays in the Spheres, because it has no more learning to do on Earth. A Deeper Self is Cosmic Energy and stays always the same, it keeps its memory's and learnings with it, but when a Deeper Self returns in a newborn baby, the lessons are not all in the baby's memory. That is to say, they are there, but it would be to complicated if you have to remember all (or none) your former lifes. But the knowledge is there, hidden, but always there. Some humans remember them very well, but most of the time only very little children til the age of three, then they start to learn that they only have to do what the parents say and forget these memories. The lessons you have learned in former lives you use automatically to live this life, and so it goes on, til you finally know how to live a life....
But that is a very difficult matter. Life comes with ups and downs and if you make a mess of it, you shall have to deal with that, one way or another...
Try to live your life with respect for other humans and all living species and of course our Earth.
She is terrorized enough by humans, we have to pay her respect and do no more harm, because humans are on the way to their end on this Earth, destructive as they handle everywhere nowadays....

Im slowly comming to the conclution that death is by no means the end of the road, it could be just the begining.
As a human i have a natural fear of death, because its unknown uncharted and once you cross the line there is no comming back.
Im trying to conquer my fear becuse when my time is up i dont want to go out craping myself, id much rather leave in a dignified manor.
I belive the sole resides in the brain the sole is what shapes our personallitys, it along with life experiences makes us who we are, athiests tend to say its all life experience that makes us who we are but that explanation doesnt account for certain things like sense of humor and certain other emotions that by logical deduction we shouldent have, survival of the fittest not survival of the funnest most loving or caring people.
I dont understand this survival of the fittest march through time, if that were the case why isnt every human 6ft 6" built like brick sh*t houses as if its survival of the fittest that would be the only way to guarantee survival would it not?
When you stand back and look at the human body its so obvious its just a shell built to house a brain, for instance your hands arms and legs dont have minds of ther own, your brain tell thems what to do and when to do it.
Reincarnation is a viable religous belief but its always struggled with one problem, rising population.
If humans are here simply to explore the universe it would make sense to over populate as this is the only method for guaranting the movment and exploration of new lands, planets and galaxys.
I wouldent say im a beliver in reincarnation, i have seen some small amounts of evidence to support it, i dont know if any of you read about that little indian boy who was born on the day a 57 year old man was shot and killed when the boy was 2 or 3 and began talking he claimed to be this man, ok so delusional kid your thinking (same as i was) but to my shock this kid has 2 birth marks on on his head in the exact same positions of the entrance and exit wounds the 57 year old man had suffered, coincidence?
The boy was born nearly 30 miles from where the 57 year old man lived and the mans family now vist the boy as they belive him to be there dead relative reborn.

Hi Benji.
Humans have an Earth-bound body. Your Deeper Self, or soul, is coming from the Cosmos.
We are all materialised energy beamed into an Eart-bound body. The way you look, you materialise yourself.

Humans are on Earth to learn to nurture Earth and Nature with its inhabitants and learn, most of all, to take care of one another.
It is a very bad case that the human race became as destructive and hateful as they are now, but that has a lot to do with all the so called holy wars.
The ecosphere is badly damaged and Earth is tpolluted more every day.
Not the right way to live.

Death is nothing to be afraid of. It is the end of a learning process here on Earth. Nobody is on Earth for no reason, everybody counts here.
At a certain time, your Earth-bound body will disappear (starve) and then you just go back to the Cosmos, your Deeper Self that is.
Your Deeper Self always stays with you. (you are your Deeper Self) When you come back to Earth for another lifetime you have the same Deeper Self and you can't remember it, but all you learned in a former life is still there. From there you go on and learn on how to live.
Material humans, very material, are in their first lifetime, they still have to learn that not the material stuff matters, but how you stand in life Spiritual. Especially towards other humans you have to learn to behave right.

About reincarnation. There are a lot of cases like you mentioned, you only don't hear them often. Very young children, till the age of 3, can sometimes remember their former life, but after that age they become aware of this lifetime and they are to influenced by their parents and surroundings and then the memory fades away.

So nothing to be afraid of. Don't fear death, unless you have to be a very hateful person. Then you will get it back. Some humans, not nice persons, with Near Death Experiences, go through a dark tunnel and when they are coming back in this life they shiver and are very afraid of death.
I think it is logical, you always are responsible for your own doings here on Earth and if you are mean and hateful, to bring hurt to other humans feelings, you have to take the responsibilities for doing so. As simple as that.

Have a nice day, bye.;)

Is there life after life?

While the wish for immortality is nearly overpowering, each of us must answer this question to our own satisfaction. Though wishful thinking may suffice for some, I've been cursed with a mind so simple as to require my conclusions to fit the evidence (to the best of my ability). I've thus been constrained to believe what I have to believe, not what I want to believe. Occasionally I wonder which is preferable; a pleasant fairy tale, or the stark truth? While they each have their own virtues, my own unimaginative mind appears ever to prefer logic over fantasy. If your mind is similarly afflicted, perhaps my solution could be of use in your own search for an answer to the above question? By the way, do you notice that we seldom bother to speak about death? We avoid the topic, not because we fear the state of non-being will be unpleasant, it's just that life is so much more interesting to talk about!

At the moment, my belief is that I've already been dead for a vast duration of time. In fact, I was getting along quite alright as nothingness. It wasn't painful, it wasn't pleasant, it wasn't anything that I could describe to you. The first half of eternity passed without effort, pain, or boredom on my part. Consider the year 1327, for example. I'm not in the least bit upset that I had no being in that year. It passed the same as countless others, without my taking the slightest notice of it.

At some instant I became aware of my new being. I've grown to love this world and a good number of those who share it with me. I fear the process of dying for myself and for those I love. There is a fair probability that it will be sad and painful. Watching others die and experiencing my own death is going to take some teeth-clenching courage to get through. I will get through it though, as have billions of others before me. I certainly won't be called upon to endure any novel grief or terror. Flowers will continue to blossom, children will continue to play, even as I take my last breath. I'll never become as accomplished at life as I am at non-being. Life presents us with a brief infinity of options.

I do not fear death itself. Thankfully, it takes no courage to make this statement. I'll have no being in the year 2417, for example. But wait! I've already been through this argument above. Simply extrapolate your past "experience" into the future. It's an effortless task to understand future non-being, given our long past non-being. We are all experts at non-being. Non-being is our long term and permanent state. I'll only return to that which I've so long been accustomed. There are absolutely no terrors waiting for me. Admittedly, there are no joys either. Accordingly, it's a good plan to fill our present life with joy and beauty. Be insatiable in your desire for joyful experiences. Better yet, be insatiable in your desire to share joyful experiences!

My expectation of a nice future half-eternity of nothingness could be wrecked temporarily, should I be reincarnated. Yeech, god forbid! Statistically, it would likely be a nightmare. You see; I'm a man. I live in a wealthy country, with plenty to eat, good company, good books, and a sturdy roof over my head. I'd certainly be afraid to return as a human, since most humans live their lives in some form of misery. It's reported for example, that approximately 13 million, mostly children, die of diseases related to poverty and malnutrition each year. So, the chances of returning to a life at least as happy as I now possess are very small. More likely, I'd return as an bacterium or an insect. An insect? Oh wonderful! How nice it would be to look forward to bumbling into a spider's web, or having my head chewed off by a Mantis. Even those horrors would be preferable to having a wasp paralyze me, only to incubate its eggs in my still living body. The list of possible horrors goes on and on.

My point is that I've already won the biggest lottery on earth, perhaps in the universe. I've already beaten the incredible odds against my finding happiness in a life. But now I have to come clean with you by admitting that I've no real fear of returning to a life, even as a minute virus. Though I am nearly genetically identical to my nearly six billion brothers and sisters alive at this moment, my life is in fact, unique (well, you have to admit that at least my ideas are :o). A new life which appears is just that, a new life.

Lastly, if life remained finite, but of an arbitrary length, what would be a reasonable life span? If an average span were 500 years, surely some would ask for 600 years. Following such logic it appears that no span short of infinity would appease our desire for longevity. In truth, we are allowed an average of only 80 years. I'd like 100, though I realize that the happiness of my previous 44 years has been far more than one has a reasonable right to expect. I'll end with a nice quote by Marcel Proust, "Death, take us though it may, can not take from us what we have lived".

Thanks,
Michael

So you are quite happy to live your life surrounded by all the material luxury and comfort in which you were born?

A life of nothingness and boredom and no special effects. Don't you ever run into something rotten?

Have you never been hurt by other humans attacking your feelings?
Do you have feelings at all?

Just because of all that what you descibe above, you have (perhaps) no feelings left?
No thoughts to think?

Rather simple way of living your life...

As far as death concerns, there are terrible ways humans die in.
But it has to do also with the hanging on to their lifes and not wanting to die, how sick they may be. The humans dying from terrible diseases (which come from this consuming world) are afraid to leave this world, afraid of what they might find after they've passed away. ( even the great believers in the great god almighty!)
That makes it look so terrible on them.

The children in another part of the world who are starving to death should make you think....

Why is it that so much humans have to dy from starvation while our part of the world is drowning in their food and drinks...

Why don't these humans do more about that in stead of bombing eachother and fight their holy wars with the 'nice' inventions made to kill eachother...

Guess they better try to invent something to help the starving and poor humans in this world in stead of making 'weird' and very expensive inventions to kill eachother and going into Space to explore other Planets.

The human inventors better take care for their fellow humans first and try to help them in stead of thinking of all these other crap.

We are on Earth to live our lives in balance with eachother, not to destroy eachother.

Guess there is a lot of work to be done here in other parts of the world in stead of looking at it sitting before your TV screen.

I can almost guess what your answer will be, but I am not chosen to do something about the starvation or to help with that. Guess I am not good enough for that, though I wish it was...

Luckily there are a lot of humans trying to help the poor humans out as good as they can. But they have so much lack of the d**n invention, called money.

And who says you were not there in the 1400's, you never know.
Same goes for the future...

Hope you have a good death when your time is coming. Give you one advice...don't fight it, death is necessarry, for your body doesn't work well any more then.

Untill you are killed all of a sudden by a lost bullet or so, then you will be surprised I guess...

Addressing the proposal that NDE's are essentially birth memories: I think that there are several problems with this theory. For starters, birth is traditionally a frightening experience, NDE's are not… There is little comprehension of the new world. There is more to this rebutal that I cannot think of for whatever reason.

Congratulations: What is the neccessity for death?

While addressing the issue of 'unfinished' business doesn't interest me at the moment (for one I'm not sure I agree with the concept) I do believe that mortality is a beautiful, and necessary thing. I think that human beings are very storied creatures and taking away the necessity of food, travel, technology, and all those things for survival would leave us somewhat emptier. An immortal being would not bleed, or hurt in any way. Without the dangers given to us courtesy of mortality we would lose two vital things that make us what we are. The will to SURVIVE, and the purpose of doing anything. The novelty of a birthday party I imagine would run out around the three trillion mark.

Benji: i dont want to go out craping myself

Unfortunatley, thats the first thing that happens to us anyway. So if it's already known before hand, I reccomend a light meal.

orthogonal:

I think that the human brain is incapable of fathoming 'non-being' or pre-life incarnations. It's designed to comprehend the short past, the present, and the short future. Coming into life may be like waking from a dream, where few people remember anything at all their minds were doing for 8 hours previous. Sometimes they will bring up an interesting dream experience in conversation but those things are thought up as trivial conversation. Nobody really thinks outside the box of day to day existence. If NDE's occur when brain measurements say they shouldn't than isn't it possible that these types of experiences are occuring alot more often than we are able to percieve because they are drowned in a metropolis of external sensations that are much more urgant? Or that when one is unconcious during the non-REM stages of sleep they are having experiences that we are incapable of remembering? I know that last night I had two really powerful lucid dreams and yet remembering them is proving to be quite difficult. In fact, without the comfortable ability to percieve subconcious experiences objectively it is impossible to know if 'dream' memories are entirely accurate or accurate at all. I know that research into memories shows quite a lot of holes provided the right circumstances.

This paragraph rules:

My expectation of a nice future half-eternity of nothingness could be wrecked temporarily, should I be reincarnated. Yeech, god forbid! Statistically, it would likely be a nightmare. You see; I'm a man. I live in a wealthy country, with plenty to eat, good company, good books, and a sturdy roof over my head. I'd certainly be afraid to return as a human, since most humans live their lives in some form of misery. It's reported for example, that approximately 13 million, mostly children, die of diseases related to poverty and malnutrition each year. So, the chances of returning to a life at least as happy as I now possess are very small. More likely, I'd return as an bacterium or an insect. An insect? Oh wonderful! How nice it would be to look forward to bumbling into a spider's web, or having my head chewed off by a Mantis. Even those horrors would be preferable to having a wasp paralyze me, only to incubate its eggs in my still living body. The list of possible horrors goes on and on.

I don't believe though that we can truly fathom what it would be like to be a housecat or black widow. Who knows, maybe they have there perks. I know that the looks and demeanor of animals often suggests they know some things, important things to which we are oblivious. Not really a concious knowing but a knowing none-the-less. An experience of reality that is much clearer in some ways.

Benji: i dont want to go out craping myself
Unfortunatley, thats the first thing that happens to us anyway. So if it's already known before hand, I reccomend a light meal.

No you crap yourself after your dead, well i suppose you dont actually crap yourself at all, what i ment was i dont want to end up 70 years old bed ridden and just waiting for the grim reaper.
Id much rather go out in a death or glory type situation :).

Actually, regardless of the age you die at, you 'crap' yourself.

As soon as you die the body's sphincters relax ... and guess
what! Yep, you, or what was 'you', shits and pees.

Take care

Fathom, NDE's are sometimes no fun at all to the humans who have them. But NDE's are very real, just as Lucid dreams are very real. REALITY...

There are humans who go into a dark tunnel and when they are 'back' into this life time, they are very frightened for death.
Guess they have something to be afraid of.

As far as living in this consumption 'society' and dying after that.
What makes you think you will be back as a human living in misery then?
That doesn't have to be like that. It is the way you are living your life in this consuming world and how you act towards your fellow humans. Do you live your life well and in harmony with other humans?
Do you respect Earth and Nature and its inhabitants and do you act this way?

Guess there is nothing to be frightened of. What does it matter in which form you come back, you will be a human, not an insect. Impossible theory.

Humans come back in another life time, to learn more. Because they haven't learned enough of the right way to live on this Planet and with themselves. Inner balance is important here.

And immortality is ridiculous. Will never happen. Only if the human race comes that far to create artificial clones and they do not live, they are artificial.
So every human has to die. Can be today, can be in years to come, but they die any way...

And then you go back to the Cosmos. And your Earth bound body stays here on Earth, empty...because your Deeper Self (soul) has left the body then.

Remembering former lifes mostly occurs with little children til the age of 3 years old, because after that they become aware of their parents 'short minded' rules and the worlds rules surrounding them and the memories fade away.
If you should remember every life time, you would be pretty confused and end up in an insanity asylum.
But the knowledge you gathered in former lifes is still there, in your Deeper Self, for you always keep the same Deeper Self, no matter how often you come back to Earth, it is there. And you have to learn further from out that knowledge you already carry with you.

Up to you and the entire human race how to handle the right way in life...

Death comes looking for you...always...no doubt about that.

what is the purpose of death?

read on the following forums to take on a view.:

www.sciforums.com/t4196/s/thread.html

bye!

The brain is part of the human Earth bound body.

So it will die also.

You miss the point here...Your Deeper Self goes up back to the Cosmos, not your brain.

The brain is made from the same Earth bound atoms and chemicals as therest of the Earth bound body.

And Carl Sagan can tell it very well, but it is not said that he is right in every thing.:)

I know his work very well, but even Carl Sagan was only human...

Like I am, and I make mistakes also...all the time.

But in this case, I am pretty sure...

Just a Feeling and some knowing of this particalur matter of Death...and being reborn.;)

Hey Fathoms,

Thanks for the nice reply. I agree that we can't absolutely determine how house cats and black widows experience the world. Though we both might enjoy it, I could likewise never know with certainty if chocolate cake tastes the same to you as it does to me.

The concept of perfect certainty appears mostly to be expounded by sleazy lawyers, and various other Sophists. Mathematicians, who once considered themselves the "keeper's of the flame of absolute certainty", have been steadily back-pedaling away from this concept since at least the 1930's.

On the other hand, intellectually honest folks routinely go about their lives with the understanding that non-trivial concepts never may be known with absolute certainty. We content ourselves knowing only what is probable. I can't be absolutely certain that the next time I place a pot of water on the stove, it won't freeze rather than boil (using the Maxwell's Demon argument). However, as you well know, I may rest assured that the overwhelming probability is such that it will boil every time.

Getting back to our animal friends, I'm satisfied that the dog I see reclining in a sunny, store-front window has chosen this spot because he finds the sensation to be pleasurable. I'm equally satisfied that the deer I occasionally hear chased through the woods by packs of wild dogs is feeling fear. Once the dogs catch the deer, I'm certain enough that the deer feels pain. Despite the fact that I can never know for certain, would you allow me to suggest that the deer might instead feel pleasure as it's ripped apart by the dogs?

I live and work alone half my week, atop a 4000' mountain in Vermont. Mount Mansfield is home to a community of Corvus corax, commonly known as Ravens (the Latin name sounds more noble to my ears). In pleasant weather I walk across the ridge to my own favorite rock perch. I lie on my back and envy the Ravens slope-soaring effortlessly along the Western side. While they do cruise in search of food, and in the spring their paired swooping and diving is a function of their mating ritual, I'm convinced these beautiful creatures are "merely" playing most of the time. I doubt I enjoy my own meager recreational time as much as they do their days of play. As they pass overhead, I've occasionally wondered if they feel pity for me, as I feel an awe for them?

If I should return again to life, the probable likelihood is that I'll end up only an ant (whose total body mass on earth surpasses total human body mass), or perhaps a slug. My chances of some day giving a gentle hop to launch myself into the breeze, and spend my days aloft supported by my own wings, is unfortunately, not likely in my future.

As I wrote earlier, even more likely, I'd end up a virus, for which a lowly bacterium may be considered a step up on the ladder of complexity. You might argue that a bacterium could be content with its lot. Hmm…as you read this you have a couple of billion E. coli bacteria residing inside your gut. As for myself, while I don't notice so much when they are happy, they certainly let me know when they are not! Seriously, as much as a virus is an incredible thing, in comparison to the more complex species of life, I view it more akin to a rock than to primates.

I'd like to next address the idea that we might have lived before without remembering anything of it. It is possibly true. But bear in mind that nearly any wild notion of science fiction that my mind imagines has a finite possibly of being true.

To answer the question posed, I reckon the mind of a new-born infant is genetically pre-stamped with the good ideas of its millions of prior ancestors. In this sense, a new life is the continuation of earlier life. Warbler's raised without parents build Warbler nests. Does it seem more likely that the Warbler's vestigial nest building knowledge results from a successful nest design in a previous and independent past life, or does the argument of its having a generally imprinted hereditary seem more plausible?

We would be poorer if we discarded forthright all our fantasies. I doubt most knowledge would be possible without our wonderful and free-roving human imagination. However, the filter we employ to determine what answers are likely, rather than simply possible, must be powered by reason, and not by emotion. Unfortunately, in the words of Caesar, "Men freely believe that which they desire".

It's only my idea, but I believe that philosophy suffers when it seeks absolute truths instead of reasonable probabilities. In the words of Bertrand Russell, "The point of philosophy (appears to) start with something so simple as to not seem worth stating, and end up with something so paradoxical that no one will believe it". We ask for absolute truth in no other field of knowledge. Why place such an unreasonable burden on philosophy?

Fathoms, I'm pleased to see a young fellow asking such questions. It's a significant virtue, try and hang on to it.

Regards,
Michael

Hey Fathoms,

Thanks for the nice reply. I agree that we can't absolutely determine how house cats and black widows experience the world. Though we both might enjoy it, I could likewise never know with certainty if chocolate cake tastes the same to you as it does to me.

[/I] I'm not sure about the redundant meals or the lack of shower use, but I certainly envy my cats ability to sleep such long and tranquil moments. I believe that reality is experienced only slightly different from person to person but for whichever reason we experience some things in a different light. Not different as in my green is your red or your blue is my white. But in a different light. Some people like action movies some people romance some science fiction and so on. They all witness the same things but the same things hold different meanings. In this light if I were a dog and the only thing I needed to make me happy was food water, a ball and some ground to go exploring through than I don't see too much to be dismayed by a less complicated existence. Though living 70 years of that may see 'fetch' loosing its novelty. So a fourteen year existence suits a dog. They don't have the same type of awareness as us but they seem very attuned emotionally to they're world. It doesn't take a lot to make them content.[/I]

Perfect certainty doesn't pose any threat to me. Mysteries continually fascinate and challenge humankind by sprawling in and out of existence over the eons. As long as the mystery life enthralls upon those curios enough to occasionally go exploring beyond the boundaries of philistine thinking I'll be satisfied that most day to day concepts are subject to near-perfect predictability.

would you allow me to suggest that the deer might instead feel pleasure as it's ripped apart by the dogs?

No, I think it's safe to say the experience is all together undesirable for the deer: It does not go through life looking for these life-threatening circumstances in fact it dedicates much of it too avoiding such doom. However, a deer lives in a state of being with a considerable simplistic focus that isn't perhaps so cluttered. It doesn't go through life worrying about things that don't really matter (as many people do).

. I lie on my back and envy the Ravens slope-soaring effortlessly along the Western side. While they do cruise in search of food, and in the spring their paired swooping and diving is a function of their mating ritual, I'm convinced these beautiful creatures are "merely" playing most of the time. I doubt I enjoy my own meager recreational time as much as they do their days of play. As they pass overhead, I've occasionally wondered if they feel pity for me, as I feel an awe for them?

As a lucid dreamer I have experienced the sensation of non-mechanical flight and I would say that it is extremely exhilarating. Though I won't be mastering the art of metamorphosis anytime soon there are many enviable qualities of the animal kingdom. I think that is why we frequently use them as analogies to highlight certain favorable qualities in humans, as well as unfavorable ones. Going on little adventures through nature's helps me to understand the simplicity of how the world works on a psychological level, anyway. With my lucid dreaming I can take these experiences one step further and walk through walls, fly above imitation cities and swim into the depths of the sea. Though these experiences are sometimes more gratifying in a non-lucid or waking state. Simply because, they appear to have more significance in context with whatever urgency is going on. The gift of flight in a bird does not come without responsibilities and necessities, and there in lies the blessing and the curse. I just think most animals are happy to be alive.

Accordingly, I've asked myself how I could have come to hold my prior ridiculously self-centered notion that I am superior to such beautiful animals. While I'm apparently a bit more cunning in my ability to reason than are they, I don't share their keen eyesight, or their natural ability to out-maneuver Chuck Jaeger in flight. Some frigid mornings I notice their tracks outside my hut despite temperatures of minus thirty degrees centigrade; temperatures which would kill me in well under an hour if I were similarly exposed. The Raven glides though life content with scavenged remains of already-dead beasts for food, and a small collection of twigs for its nest.

Despite the sometimes harshness of a wild animal existence it still holds a beautiful visceral state of being that is missing in my life. I think hot chocolate tastes better after an hour's trek in the absolute numbing cold of the snow covered environment. I think sleep increases in its comfort after a hard day of physical labor. It's the urgency of being present in every day life of animals that I envy. The importance of every moment, which is perhaps present in my life as well but its sometimes overwhelmed by dull and materialistic nuances of life.

Though I practice so called, "voluntary-simplicity", I still require an entire house full of stuff to survive in this climate. Lastly, it's humans, not Ravens, whose out-of-control population is in danger of producing a catastrophe on our shared planet.

With the power of the human mind comes a great responsibility that is being neglected until the last possible moment. It is kind of disheartening.

I'd like to next address the idea that we might have lived before without remembering anything of it. It is possibly true. But bear in mind that nearly any wild notion of science fiction that my mind imagines has a finite possibly of being true.

To answer the question posed, I reckon the mind of a new-born infant is genetically pre-stamped with the good ideas of its millions of prior ancestors. In this sense, a new life is the continuation of earlier life. Warbler's raised without parents build Warbler nests. Does it seem more likely that the Warbler's vestigial nest building knowledge results from a successful nest design in a previous and independent past life, or does the argument of its having a generally imprinted hereditary seem more plausible?

I think its genetics. I think that if reincarnation were to exist, than the segregation of lives into distinct articles would be important. Complicating current thoughts with memories of an everlasting existence takes away from euphoria of a new life to make do with, a new set of challenges, and perhaps gives everybody the chance to truly know what it is to be in all varieties of life situations. It's a difficult subject though, but I'll leave my comments as they are.

We would be poorer if we discarded forthright all our fantasies. I doubt most knowledge would be possible without our wonderful and free-roving human imagination. However, the filter we employ to determine what answers are likely, rather than simply possible, must be powered by reason, and not by emotion. Unfortunately, in the words of Caesar, "Men freely believe that which they desire".

Belief and Knowledge are not as separate as they are sometimes made out to be. After all, I BELIEVE that this computer sitting in front of me isn't powered by supernatural causes even though I lack respectable knowledge of how it works at all. Conversely, if I KNOW the path in front of me is not the greater of the two it would still take faith in that knowledge to act upon. Even if the faith is based completely upon logic. As a person who uses aesthetics perhaps foolishly in judging the validity of a frontier science I would say that emotions as long as they are pure rarely impede upon the search of ultimate truth behind things. It's that hunger for meaning and the romanticism of a good mystery that compels the human imagination in its search for ultimate understanding. Not that a level head and an impressive wealth of facts are not vital to the process of discovery as well. But I doubt that most great scientists do what they do merely because it's rational for the evolution of human society to be inquisitive without having at least some genuine childlike enthusiasm that keeps their embers burning. I haven't come across a single cosmological scheme where the wow factor disagrees with the rationality (too much anyway).

It's only my idea, but I believe that philosophy suffers when it seeks absolute truths instead of reasonable probabilities. In the words of Bertrand Russell, "The point of philosophy (appears to) start with something so simple as to not seem worth stating, and end up with something so paradoxical that no one will believe it". We ask for absolute truth in no other field of knowledge. Why place such an unreasonable burden on philosophy?

I agree that it is not philosophies place to explain the universe. It's purpose is to inspire, challenge, or confirm the pursuits of intellectuals…

Fathoms, I'm pleased to see a young fellow asking such questions. It's a significant virtue, try and hang on to it.

It's difficult sometimes. But the universe fascinates me. These discussions help me to define myself.

Chris,

Fathoms, so you go out of your body during lucid dreams?:)

Isn't it great? You can fly much further then this Earth if you want to.

I should prefer to come back as an Animal here on Earth, for they live in much more peace and harmony amongst eachother then this 'killing' human race.

The Animals of prey mostly always take out the weak and the oldest of the ones they attack and keep the populations healthy.

Through the interference of humans even Nature and the Animals are influenced. Who the hell do humans think they are to raise dogs for killing Deer, just for their human satisfaction to kill...

I want to come back as a Tree and wipe away all the humans who come by and leave their garbage behind in Nature.

Perhaps it should be a good 'thing' if we could reincarnate as Nature inhabitants and Animals, but then again, with our load of bad emotions and behaviour in former lifes...
Guess it would be better for Nature and Her inhabitants to leave that to itself, for the human race has to do a lot of homework before they ever are even able to reincarnate as an Animal.

Well, guess there will be a lot of criticisme on this, but I really think humans should live their lifes in a way the Animals do. For humans invented when we have to work and when we have to sleep. To keep the 'civilization' going and working.

Take a good look at the Cats and the Dogs and see when they sleep and are awake. Whenever THEY want to...this way it should be for humans also, for in fact we are just mammels with the ability to communicate.

But that communication between humans is getting worse and worse, they prefer to kill eachother.

Luckily there are enough humans who see the mistake made by the killing humans and who try to do something about it and try to safe Nature, Her inhabitants and Planet Earth.

Doesn't take away that this Topic is called 'Death" and this is all very off-topic.

So for the record....Be glad you die...perhaps you get another chance to do it right...

Actually Banshee, the wild dogs I spoke of are simply pets that have escaped the control of their owners. If several dogs happen to escape their human masters they instinctively form a hunting pack. I hear them once or twice a year, usually on quiet winter evenings. They make a hideous baying sound once they find the scent of a deer. When an owner's dog is found to be running deer, the usual reaction from the owner is; "It can't be true, my doggie is so gentle, he wouldn't do such a thing". But animals are amoral creatures. The cute chimpanzee you see in nature films routinely murders and rapes. A playful looking male dolphin takes part in gang rapes of females as a matter course. A soft and cuddly kitten will kill anything that doesn't either scare it, or kill it first.

Unfortunately, nature has never been so kind that animal predators only kill the weak or old. A newly born gazelle must be able to run for its life only hours after its birth. No large animal predator would pass up such a tasty meal. This past summer I saw a hawk in the branch of a tree. Two robins were trying to chase it away from their nest of chicks. I felt sympathy for the brave parents. A robin standing up to a hawk is equivalent to me standing up to a lion. I threw some rocks in the direction of the hawk. It flew away, but returned later and killed the chicks. It was silly of me to try and save them. The hawk was probably trying to feed its own chicks. Despite my understanding this concept, I still curse the cruelty of nature.

We often forget that we are merely animals, distinguished primarily by our ability to think rationally. Our early ancestors killed each other without the slightest hesitation or pity. Despite the horrors of the 20th century wars and genocidal pogroms, humans are slowly becoming more moral in their social behavior. Perhaps it's only my dumb luck, but thus far in my life no one has tried to kill me. In fact, most people I meet are rather pleasant towards me.

I wish animals would not tear each other apart to make a meal. I wish some humans would not strangle, starve, poison, bludgeon, stab, shoot, and bomb each other to death (I'm sure I've neglected a few hundred other murder methods in my list). But the world is mostly as we find it and only partly as we individually want to make it. Socrates was fundamentally correct in his assertion that, "There is no good but knowledge and there is no evil but ignorance. Humans in general have a basic wish to be good, but we are hindered by our relative ignorance. The worst crimes appear to be committed by omission, rather than by commission. However, I remain optimistic about man's future. It was man who invented the concept of morality. As our intelligence improves (I'm speaking of intelligence-not to be confused with technology!), so will our moral behavior. I do not wish that humans would act more like animals. I wish that humans would act more like humans!

Regards,
Michael

Conclusion: Humans and Animals behave in the same way.

Wild Dogs is a bad example of how humans treat their dogs. They wouldn't escape if their 'owners' should pay more attention to them.

A newborn Gazelle is a weak Animal who can get caught by the so called predators. It is nasty to look at, but it is Nature. Ever seen how much Gazelles there are??

A Bird of Prey will get itself an easy prey if it gets the chance. So does a house Cat. A Cat will get to a Mouse if she/he has the possibility and even play with it. How rude of the Cat...

Humans go on purpose killing other humans with bombs and other heavy weapons. They kill thousands of humans every day. Look at the holy wars and look at what is going on right now with this so called war on terrorisme. That is not Natural. That is pure killing because the one nation wants to have control over the other. Humans invent more dangerous weapons every day, just to kill another nation. Perhaps the so called world leaders better spend their money at projects to feed the starving humans in parts of the world, in stead of fighting eachother.

Animals do have only their Natural weapons, no inventions what so ever. They 'kill' to eat. Just like humans did, long ago.

Something completely different.

But in a way you are very right. Humans should behave more like humans, with feelings in stead of bombing. We just have to make sure we keep on talking...
And have more patience towards one another.

(I don't want to be involved in a discussion about the war on terrorisme...that is another Forum.)

Have a nice day...

Oh my god!

Another RR* on the forum!

And an idealistic dreamer to boot!
(Don't worry, I won't hold it against you)

How un-PC to point out how unrealistic most
peoples views of 'Mother Nature' are.

Hang in there! And, take care. ;)

*Rational Realist.

Thank you for your nice reply, Banshee.

Actually, I tend to think that it is natural to kill each other. Male animals routinely fight and occasionally kill each other to gain access to females for mating. Bears in Alaska will occasionally kill other bears that attempt to steal “their” fishing spot on a salmon stream. In neither case does the animal care to eat the other animal. Men kill for exactly the same reasons.

The concept of technologically advanced military aircraft is no different than the concept a monkey employs when he uses a stick to hit his opponent instead of his hand. Large proportions of the ethical problems we have result from men refusing to rise above their animal origins. If you strike me, my emotionally natural response is to strike you back harder. But my intellect tells me that this is a stupid response. Look at the Palestinians and the Israelis today. Their behavior unfortunately is perfectly natural. A Palestinian suicide bomber kills an Israeli and the Israelis responds by killing Palestinians. This will only stop when men on both sides come to understand that the color of the flag flying over that wretched little spot of earth means nothing compared to the misery inflicted on all by their animal behavior. They must rise above their selfish natural instincts to see the common good of cooperation rather than contention.

Men are uniquely gifted with the possibility to think and act rationally. If we do not realize this possibility, then we deserve to consider ourselves no better than the wild beasts. In every other respect, men are inferior to the beasts. Our eyesight, our hearing, our sense of smell, and our physical strength are vastly inferior to certain other animals. Animals act from instinct and emotion. We may only claim superiority over the wild beasts if we use our intellect to fashion a world based on rationality, instead of on primitive instinct and emotion. We have the potential to become much better than mere animals. If we never rise above natural emotional responses, I’m afraid there would be little hope for our species.

Banshee, I’m not sure if I understand your point about the gazelles correctly. I think you are saying that there are so many gazelles that nature takes some of them to keep the population in check. If you are saying this, then I agree with you. I agree, and yet I curse this brutal idea conceived by nature. If men used this model of nature for our own behavior, then we would routinely fly with our B52’s over Africa and bomb selected groups of people, rather than let their population rise so high as to create a famine. The predator-prey model evolved by nature is a contemptible solution! Rational men must do better for ourselves than to merely mimic nature.

Have a nice week,
Michael

Very good reply Orthogonal. Thank you, good to have a nice discussion here.:)

The African humans are dying any way because of all the diseases and starvation. So no need to bomb them. They are taken care of already. And no help for them in sight what so ever.
So, conclusion, Nature takes away the most part of them by starvation. A very rotten way to die don't you think..?
Perhaps the great world leaders should do something about that in stead of bombing everybody, including a lot of innocent humans who don't want to have a thing to do with these rotten wars.

If they are so intelligent why don't they help other humans in stead of fighting them? Animals kill yes, but not so frequently and nasty as humans can do. If humans react because of their intellect, well, I guess they lack something then.

What about Intuition? That is something we humans do have also. Why not handle from there? Put away your intellectual way of thinking and try for a change to act only by intuition...
Doesn't mean you don't have to think, for that is what humans have conceived through evolution. It is the way they act with that way of thinking and make their destructive inventions.

They do a lot of harm to Earth and Nature by acting like this. That is what concerns me the most. Planet Earth is going to be ruined because of all the new weapons they invent.

You are right about the Israelites, yes. It seems like they have developed a natural killer instinct. Rather sad, don't you think...
A whole nation going under in pain and sorrow because they don't want to give in, in any way. It really hurts me to see all this happening now a days and then I mean the US also with their bombing and interfering. They have a reason to do so they think, but take a lot of innocent lives also.

Why not take only the ones who are a real treat to the human race? because they know exactly who that are...

And I am not for the Arabs, but only for the Planet and think that it would be better to take away the real nasty characters in stead of bombing whole countries with more and more heavy bombs.

'Now frontiers shift like desert sands
While nations wash their blooded hands
Of loyalty, of history in shades of grey...'- P.Floyd

Now I am wandering of to the war on terrorisme, I am sorry. I will go back on topic right away.:rolleyes:

By the way, the Animals, all of them, were on Earth far before the first man like figure started to think for the first time. Guess the Animals stayed on their natural way and men kind tried to climb up on the ladder.
Don't know if that was really a good thing. In so far that they made real good inventions also, but never seem to have enough. Always trying to invent new things, which are not really necessarry for the human race to survive. It is only polluting Earth and the Universe.
Why do they have to go up in Space while there is a lot of work to do here on Earth? Help other humans for instance. Try to be more kind to their neighbours, to start close to home. And act from there.

Chagur, I am not a dreamer. If that was the case I shouldn't be so involved with the latest developments IN the US.
And yes, I am using a computer, so I can reach you RR's a little better.;)

Have a good day you both. Bye...

These are all very good points concerning many faucets of Life and death. I think a respect of Life is the point!


bjl:)

There you are very right Bobby Lee. Respect for Life, Nature and Earth...;)

And death...for that is part of Life...