I watched that movie some time ago. Lovely...!
I particularly enjoy some of the quotes about death...

Here's the best one...

Hunter Patch Adams: What's wrong with death sir? What are we so mortally afraid of? Why can't we treat death with a certain amount of humanity and dignity, and decency, and God forbid, maybe even humor. Death is not the enemy gentlemen. If we're going to fight a disease, let's fight one of the most terrible diseases of all, indifference.


So what's up with death. Is it really a big deal? Shouldn't we just enjoy our lives, without fighting and without worrying whether we are going to die today or not? How can we enjoy life if we are always trying to avoid something that someday we will definetely have to face?

something that someday we will definetely have to face

Not sure about that.

Strictly logically speaking, one doesn't know whether one is mortal or not, neither does it look like one can find out.

We die someday. We know that. You are talking about life after death? We don't know that. But many are afraid ther's nothing on the other side. So... whatever. That's not the point of the thread.

I do not believe that we can state that people allow life to be interrupted by the constant fear of death. Yes it is something sometimes people think about, but few are paralyzed at the thought as you would seem to imply. That being said, death is terrible, for no matter what occurs, there shall be a loss, and one which is quite great.

This is not a challenging puzzle, people... :rolleyes:

Considering I am addressing (in part) this topic elsewhere on SciForums (see our Eastern area), we could actually say that life is -enhanced- by constant thought of death, according to samurai beliefs. Yamamoto Tsunetomo suggests that we:

Meditation on inevitable death should be performed daily. Every day when one's body and mind are at peace, one should meditate upon being ripped apart by arrows, rifles, spears and swords, being carried away by surging waves, being thrown into the midst of a great fire, being struck by lightning, being shaken to death by a great earthquake, falling from thousand-foot cliffs, dying of disease or committing seppuku at the death of one's master. And every day without fail one should consider himself as dead.

We die someday. We know that.

No, we don't know. We just assume.

More, we *hope* that we are mortal, we *hope* that there will be an end to all the suffering -- and that hopefully, when the body dies, this is it.

Unbelievable...

Ok. Let's not discuss the subject of the thread, then... :rolleyes:

:m:

Water:

I actually hope I am immortal. The idea of endless existence appeals to me infinitely more than endless non-existence. Even if this is in a state of reincarnation rather than immortality, such is a very appealing notion, I'd say.

I find that many people actually have both hopes: for mortality, as well as immortality, depending on the issue they're dealing with.

Say it costs $50,000 to treat something. It shortens his life 10 years. And suppose this person makes $30,000 a year. Well considering he can spend $5,000 a year to pay this off. However, we can consider that $5,000 a lot because he can barely make ends meet anyway (for whatever reasons). So, essentially, you could say he works 10 years to stay alive to pay off the debt. And in these 10 years, he is barely having any fun considering his financial situation and having to work all the time to make this money.

Seems to me this guy is afraid of death or afraid of what he might miss out on should he die earlier than he wants to.

water:

"I find that many people actually have both hopes: for mortality, as well as immortality, depending on the issue they're dealing with. "

In an absolute or a relative sense? For whereas surely we dislike the unpleasant things and wish not to be present for them, it would seem that this is not so much willing death, as it is willing pleasure over pain.

Absane:

"Say it costs $50,000 to treat something. It shortens his life 10 years. And suppose this person makes $30,000 a year. Well considering he can spend $5,000 a year to pay this off. However, we can consider that $5,000 a lot because he can barely make ends meet anyway (for whatever reasons). So, essentially, you could say he works 10 years to stay alive to pay off the debt. And in these 10 years, he is barely having any fun considering his financial situation and having to work all the time to make this money."

Few, if any jobs, require utter and slavish devotion to it. 40 hours a week is the norm. Even with debt, one does not have to constantly pay attention to it. This seems to be a bit exaggerated.

Where do you live? Luxembourg? :rolleyes:

I actually live in New York City, Truthseeker.

I do not believe that we can state that people allow life to be interrupted by the constant fear of death. Yes it is something sometimes people think about, but few are paralyzed at the thought as you would seem to imply. That being said, death is terrible, for no matter what occurs, there shall be a loss, and one which is quite great.
It isn't that one particular life is "interrupted" but how much further society to proceed without the fear or worry of a huge difference after death. My thought on death is that it is simply an extension of life...that is, we may not even be aware of dieing. A change (in the vaguest sense) occurs.
Death is another process of life one in which we are less aware of the individual self and rather focus on total existence.
Life is a flaw in absolute truth. It leads us down a wrongful path of futility. Everything we strive for, to live/prosper/think/understand/move, will ultimately end in oblivion. The universe "continues" on indifferently until our impact and goals are idiotically nominal.

Weirdomandude:

That all our efforts may be resigned to the abyss, does this make them fruitless? No more so than anything else that has a time and place. Something need not be eternal to matter -now- and to matter to the being that lives -now-.

So what's up with death. Is it really a big deal? Shouldn't we just enjoy our lives, without fighting and without worrying whether we are going to die today or not? How can we enjoy life if we are always trying to avoid something that someday we will definetely have to face?

Certainly a wise and true statement.

"If life is a sham, death is the only sincerity." - "Hagakure".

A good death seems condusive to peace about the prospect of death. No one seems to have a desire to die shamefully or in disgrace.

I don't understand why people are arguing about whether we die or not and that we can't be sure?

We can be sure that the physical body dies as we see it happenning to countless others and this is what we fear when we think of death. The end of our existance on this plane as a physcial body that is able to engage with those we care about and those we do not.

Back to Truths question, as Pjames said, we don't think about death all the time or live life fearing it, not many of us anyway although I guess that would depend on your life style.

I was forced to consider death a while back and it was not nice, however it did make me appreiciate living more than I did. Thus I conclude fearing death is good is stops us being complacement and taking life for granted and wasting it in crap endeavour.

I don't understand why people are arguing about whether we die or not and that we can't be sure?

We can be sure that the physical body dies as we see it happenning to countless others and this is what we fear when we think of death. The end of our existance on this plane as a physcial body that is able to engage with those we care about and those we do not.

This isn't about physical death. More to do with "do we have a soul."

This isn't about physical death. More to do with "do we have a soul."

this was the thread question:

"So what's up with death. Is it really a big deal? Shouldn't we just enjoy our lives, without fighting and without worrying whether we are going to die today or not? How can we enjoy life if we are always trying to avoid something that someday we will definetely have to face? "

This isn't about physical death. More to do with "do we have a soul."
No. She was on the right track.

The thing that gets me about death is that those I care about have to go through it no matter what (myself included, of course). But, almost regardless of the means, the actual physical exit from this life to the next (even if the next is no-life) just seems like an awfully painful way to leave.

True some "luck" out by dying in their sleep or through some relatively unconscious means, but the majority seem to have their lottery ticket set for gruesome or debilitating or just plain ol' painful.

You think of all of the people that no longer live that you read about in history books. So many people that have had to go through this laborous process of ceasing to exist (within the physical realm at least). It makes you wonder at what point your mind or body is going to say, "All right, that's enough for me!" The body is incredibly tenacious and resilient, which can be a downright negative if you're being tortured or experiencing a prolonged, excruciating malady.

Naturally, a fear of death increases our inclination towards survivability, but the pain and indignity that's usually associated with those final moments can do quite the number if you dwell on it too much. What's worse: Knowing when you die? Or knowing how you die?

If you're one of the people on the Titanic as it's slipping fathoms below the surface and you're trapped in one of the compartment bins, there's a moment when you say to yourself, "Oh man, I got about a minute before the water rushes up to the ceiling. Then, what? Do I try to hold my breath and stave off the inevitable? Give in quickly?" But there'll be that thrashing about that, on some level, you'll be aware you're doing as you're trying to get some breath for one more shot at living. Eventually your lungs engorge with foul-tasting salt-water and you reach that panicky conclusion of knowing there are no further options. You're literally dead in the water. And, at some very near point, you go from alive, alive, alive straight over to dead.

I think the fear factor is in knowing that, no matter what, this is something that you have to experience by yourself. No more vicarious living for that. Every person, regardless of their personal estimation, will go through this and discover just how much it sucks. Especially for the exceptionally violent and painful deaths, if there is an after-life, imagine the sheer number of post-traumatic stress-disorders there'd be.

Yikes.

this was the thread question:

"So what's up with death. Is it really a big deal? Shouldn't we just enjoy our lives, without fighting and without worrying whether we are going to die today or not? How can we enjoy life if we are always trying to avoid something that someday we will definetely have to face? "

Well the way I read it I see more of a soul-seeking question.

If you're one of the people on the Titanic as it's slipping fathoms below the surface and you're trapped in one of the compartment bins, there's a moment when you say to yourself, "Oh man, I got about a minute before the water rushes up to the ceiling. Then, what? Do I try to hold my breath and stave off the inevitable? Give in quickly?" But there'll be that thrashing about that, on some level, you'll be aware you're doing as you're trying to get some breath for one more shot at living. Eventually your lungs engorge with foul-tasting salt-water and you reach that panicky conclusion of knowing there are no further options. You're literally dead in the water. And, at some very near point, you go from alive, alive, alive straight over to dead.



Yikes.


This story gives me the heebie jeebies, I nearly drowned once.
I used to body borad in the North sea, dark winter nights when the waves were high, came to Devon, sunny day, surf low. What danger was there?

I was about 150yrds from shore missed my wave (top of it) but got caught by the thrust of it, It took me under and my board held me down, I was twisting round and round, bubbles everywhere I did not know which way was was up, I did not reach air again until I was pushed ashore by the sea, NOT nice. I didn't body board again after that.

I was conscious for all of it, I don't recall a struggle to hold my breath just the visual image of the bubbles and the motion and wondering which way was up which way I should be reaching to get to the surface.

yuk

Hey TOR... I was still a kid when I went through that...

It was "fun"... :D
I just went back to the water....:D

But again, I was a kid... ;)


Hehe... my mouth was full of sand...

Hey TOR... I was still a kid when I went through that...

It was "fun"... :D
I just went back to the water....:D

But again, I was a kid... ;)


Hehe... my mouth was full of sand...


my nose was fiull of water, streamed like a tap on full.

Is it just me or does anyoneone else find these animated goat shaggers and beat downers annoying?
Anyways: "Death be not proud though some have called thee mighty and dreadful, for thou art not" John Dunne
Is it fear of death or fear of pain that concerns us most?

For a lot fo people is fear of pain. But again, ultimately, you cannot avoid it, so you accept it. If you don't accept it, you are not in peace. What's good in that?

Or is it just the fact that it is ultimately an unknown and humans don't deal too well with things they can't control (not that we necessarily can control anything). Drugs can remove pain in many palliative situations. The end of pain could be seen as pain releif - phew no more pain.

Out Of Pain Comes Refinement and Strength

"If life is a sham, death is the only sincerity." - "Hagakure".

A good death seems condusive to peace about the prospect of death. No one seems to have a desire to die shamefully or in disgrace.
Darwin Awards are something to avoid, certainly ;)

I watched that movie some time ago. Lovely...!
I particularly enjoy some of the quotes about death...

Here's the best one...

Hunter Patch Adams: What's wrong with death sir? What are we so mortally afraid of? Why can't we treat death with a certain amount of humanity and dignity, and decency, and God forbid, maybe even humor. Death is not the enemy gentlemen. If we're going to fight a disease, let's fight one of the most terrible diseases of all, indifference.


So what's up with death. Is it really a big deal? Shouldn't we just enjoy our lives, without fighting and without worrying whether we are going to die today or not? How can we enjoy life if we are always trying to avoid something that someday we will definetely have to face?

The attitude that they encouarge about death makes it a lot easier to use it to manipulate people. Heighten the anticipation, heighten the panic, make avoiding death the primary goal that shuts out everything else. Then they are happy with subsistence living and rules that stifle every activity that involves risk, which means every activity that involves.

We can't know if we'll die or not, or how.
We can't know if there'll be life after death.
(someone might argue about propabilities but I'd quote Hume)

So prepare for every contigency!

Besides, most religious/arcane/philosophical theories are true on one level or another. Either they're literally true (or partially literally true), or then they are clever metaphors intended to make stuff we cant bend our minds over easier to handle.

If there is no life after death, death is simply something to be avoided. But like any challenge or battle, thinking about losing is mostly useless. Death comes for free, when it will, so there's no need to worry about it. Just concentrate on keeping relatively safe (too much safety is just as dangerous as no safety) and winning, living. Also, if death is merely the end of life, then there is no point in prolonging quantity (age) at the cost of quality. If life is all you got, then you should enjoy it! If you dont enjoy life, you might as well be dead, since there is nothing beyond life.
Which does NOT justify suicide if things go shitwise. Just like you dont give up a chess match because you're losing. People who accept their (immediate) death just think they know how the rest of their life will play out, and in most cases this is pure lunacy. Life sucks? Do something about it! Everything can be overcome, or compensated. Mostly life sucks due to our own mistakes, but sometimes mistakes other people make affect ours, too. But since it touches you, attempts should be made to prevent such mistakes (ie. teaching others, improving the society so it wouldn't make mistakes that affect you); or at least to prevent them from affecting YOU.

If there is life after death, well so what? Do you know for what purpose you live? Some might have opinions, sure, but I think no one knows, really. You might spend time trying to figure it out, but to waste your life trying to figure it out makes no sense. You got to live life in the meantime, or you'll be breaking the meaning anyway. If, on the other hand, you live and dont think about it, because "nothing is certain, boohoo", there's a big chance you'll end up breaking the "purpose" anyway.

If you'll live forever, act and think like it. If not, what did you lose? Think things not in phases like "first twenty years I study", but in the presence. Do everything NOW, and keep thinking.

Wow. I might have missed the topic a bit.

The attitude that they encouarge about death makes it a lot easier to use it to manipulate people. Heighten the anticipation, heighten the panic, make avoiding death the primary goal that shuts out everything else. Then they are happy with subsistence living and rules that stifle every activity that involves risk, which means every activity that involves.
Very true. And then there is the pharmaceutical industry, adding a whole dimension to the situation..

I watched that movie some time ago. Lovely...!
I particularly enjoy some of the quotes about death...

Here's the best one...

Hunter Patch Adams: What's wrong with death sir? What are we so mortally afraid of? Why can't we treat death with a certain amount of humanity and dignity, and decency, and God forbid, maybe even humor. Death is not the enemy gentlemen. If we're going to fight a disease, let's fight one of the most terrible diseases of all, indifference.


So what's up with death. Is it really a big deal? Shouldn't we just enjoy our lives, without fighting and without worrying whether we are going to die today or not? How can we enjoy life if we are always trying to avoid something that someday we will definetely have to face?

The problem with death is that it takes away everything - how can you enjoy life when everything you stand to enjoy can be stolen at any moment?
Its the type of enjoyment that relies on ignorance.

And despite all the bravado about death I am sure that if a person offerred to slit one's throat we would have a different approach

It doesn't matter when death comes. What matters is whether you are enjoying life right now or not. The point of death is Carpe Diem.

It doesn't matter when death comes. What matters is whether you are enjoying life right now or not. The point of death is Carpe Diem.

Then why does enjoyment of this world often lead to exploitation and suffering? IN other words simply trying to acquire the "good things" in life often leads to the bad things in life, and the ultimate bad thing is when one is faced with seperation (in the form of death) from the things one has developed attachment to in this life - similarly to practice detachment from everything enjoyable is to retreat from life to retreat from death -

In short the proposal of simply "enjoying life" is not a good proposal for an intelligent person because it has concommitant factors of suffering

*sigh... that's not what I meant by "enjoying life" at all. I simply said- live in the present.

Then you should clarify living in the present with words other than carpe diem - we have an enjoying nature by constitution, but that doesn't necessarily mean that what we have in the way of a present situation is what we should seek satisfaction in -

You have a superficial understanding of Carpe Diem.

Fear is the enemy, not death, because death is like a hurricane, it's an unstoppable force of nature.No reason to ponder on the inevitable. Death is simply part of evolution, you have to die, because you're an obsolete(sp?) model of a human being. Either you're not fit enough to survive, or you have exceeded your purpose, then you die.

Yes. Poetic...