The contention is very simple and not hard to see:

The mere fact that our time alive is so short gives us an impetus to utilise that time to it's maximum. Thus the shortness of our lives gives our lives purpose and meaning.

If we were to live for ever there would be a need to find a different driving force behind our lives.

I know this is not an overly deep notion but would you care to discuss anyway, of course only and only if you have the time to do so..... :D

So, if suddenly you discovered you may live forever, you'll just nap all the time for the rest of eternity? Absurd. On the contrary. If man was to live forever, he'd utilize his time to its maximum, running from boredom.
Edit: Escape from boredom is what drives man even when his life is limited. Picture yourself napping for a week, a month, a year.... Life is short, but not too short. I think it's just the right size.

So, if suddenly you discovered you may live forever, you'll just nap all the time for the rest of eternity? Absurd. On the contrary. If man was to live forever, he'd utilize his time to its maximum, running from boredom.

What does escaping boredom have to do with efficient use of time?

Ask yourself the opposite question. Suppose that you found out you were going to die in a week. How would you spend that week? In a month? In a year? How many frivolous activities would go by the wayside in order for the 'important' things to be done? How short a time to finish your life's work?

Now, if you had an eternity in which to finish a work, would any work ever get done or would it all be frivolous escapes from boredom?

If I were dying in a minute, I'd be doing exactly the same thing I'm doing now. I wouldn't change a thing in my life if I were dying in a month. What for? There are only so many hours in a day, and only so much can get done within a given time.
What is important in life? If I don't know, I won't do the important things if I die in a month or a year, etc. And if I do know what's important in life, why won't I do it regardless of when my death comes?
How long does it take to find out what's important in life? Does one really need death to put things into perspective in a reasonable manner? I doubt it.

If I were dying in a minute, I'd be doing exactly the same thing I'm doing now.

What if you were planning on going to sleep? Or clipping your toenails? Or picking that scab on your arm? Would you still do these things in your last minute of life?

I wouldn't change a thing in my life if I were dying in a month. What for? There are only so many hours in a day, and only so much can get done within a given time.

Yes, and how much of that time is doing things that are unnecessary and frivolous? That don't really do anything. How much of that time is spent sleeping too much? How much of that time is spent thinking about the future? About where your love life is going? About why guys are whistling at you on the streets? How much of that time is spent in school studying art so that you can have a career as an artist later in life? Would you really do all these things still? You wouldn't try to finish up loose ends? You wouldn't try to make it so that people don't have to clean up after you once you're gone? You wouldn't go about and make sure that those you care about know truly and honestly how it is?

You really wouldn't change anything?

I doubt that. I'm sorry. But I doubt that.

If I know the deed is frivolous and useless, why would I do it? Remember, we scratch because it itches, not because we have nothing better to do.

Let's not snif my shit, how about yours? Do you do things you know are useless? What for?

What loose ends? I owe nothing to anyone, I make sure of it on the spot.

Whitewolf,

If I know the deed is frivolous and useless, why would I do it?

Because that's what we do when time stretches before us. So much time that we can just sit back and scratch our ass from time to time. Do you deny that you ever waste time? Really? I was only questioning you before. But, if you deny this, then I call you a liar.

Let's not snif my shit, how about yours? Do you do things you know are useless? What for?

Absolutely. Don't take this so personally. We all do things that are pointless. That are just time wasters. That serve little purpose in the greater scheme of our life.

What loose ends? I owe nothing to anyone, I make sure of it on the spot.

Well, funeral arrangements for one. Preparing to shut off your bills and such things. Paying off your bills. Telling people what they mean to you. Blah blah blah. Yakkity shmackity. A thousand and one loose ends spin off of our daily lives and if you say that your life is free of loose ends then, again, I'm going to call you a liar. (****edit: Some would call these things frivolous and to an extent, I would agree. However, I would make funeral arrangements and take care of the dirty details of such. Bills could go to hell if no one is going to inherit them from me. I'd get to work on serious things. A work to leave behind for the ages.)

Procrastination is a big problem among many people and I am one of them. There is so much time available that there's always tomorrow to finish this project. Tell this person whatever. Write that book. Finish that poem. Etc... Imagine how many more loose ends would be spun of in an immortal life.


Whitewolf, you're taking this too personally, methinks. Makes me think that you have something to hide. A little guilty perhaps?

My examples were clear. If you were dying in a minute, would you go to sleep or clip your toenails? Would you fret about where your love life is going? Or not going? Would you worry about school? About work? These things are just maintenance and consume a lot of time in one's life. If time is short then maintenance can go to hell. Get the serious stuff done.

I agree with Quantum Quack; life is defined by death, not the reverse. More precisely stated, the state of nonexistence.

just to add to the discussion a little,

If a woman was imortal when would she decide to have children.?

At present teh biologivcal clock dictates that child birth be between puberty and say 50 years at most....menopause.
Now take away these biological stages and what happens.

If you always could have children sometime in the future and there was no time limit would you do it now or continually wait for a better moment, a better moment that may never come.......You see with out the biological imperative we would have to find otehr motivators and me thinks this woudl be extremely difficult.


Old age and infirmity can be a prime motivator fro a young adult to get on with it.......puberty looses it's urgency.......the fear of death accidental or deliberate takes on a greater complexity.

I would suggest that death defines life as Facial has contended, in ways we can't even imagine.......

Do you deny that you ever waste time? Really?

School keeps us busy. I guess it's unique to doing what you love for a living: I get instant gratification from schoolwork. Maybe it's because it's art. I do it for a reason, not just because it'll let me live later. It is what's important in life, as I see it.

Well, funeral arrangements for one. Preparing to shut off your bills and such things. Paying off your bills. Telling people what they mean to you. Blah blah blah. Yakkity shmackity.

Bills? Funeral?! Is that what's important in life?! HAHAHAHAHAHA! There are so many more interesting things. Plus, why don't you let people know what they mean to you right away? It is all about lifestyle. A work to leave for the ages... Why don't you start now? That way you'll do a good job. Don't have to wait for death's short notice. And why wouldn't you do it if you were to live for eternity?

Whitewolf, you're taking this too personally, methinks. Makes me think that you have something to hide. A little guilty perhaps?

I'm not taking anything personally in this thread. Nothing to hide. What do you wish to know? I'll hang it all out if you're interested. Just don't keep it in your head for too long, there are more interesting things to remember.

When one says: "Live to the fullest," it doesn't refer to actions; it refers to the state of mind. Understand that each moment is necessary; if it isn't, don't do it.
If a woman was imortal when would she decide to have children.?

If a woman died childless, would it make her life meaningless? Not necessarily. I, as a representative of women, tell you I'd adopt.

I would suggest that death defines life

I claim life is defined by the individual who lives it and by doctors who proclaim him dead/alive.

((Quantum Quack))) really agree with your insight. it is true. our lives mortality GIVEs meaning. immortality --not onliy absurdly impossIbler--but also negating the very MEANING of lifedeathlifedeath. for although we DO have physical death, not many people are savvy to death in life. it's like they have created two abstractions, 'life' and 'death' and cannot see how these terms are just that--abstractions. that what 'this' is...this wonderful mystery called life, is a dance, lifedeathlifedeath...like warp and woof....now i've finished typing this. it is its death. whilst typing it twas its life. though you can see death in it too as every time i hit a key, that hit is its life, and when not hit its death.
to imagine typing this forever wouod be....horrible

let me preempt a possible comeback someone could say, well if when typing there is death IN it--ie., the keys, etc--so IF you did carry on typing forever then because death is involved in the process, that would imply one could be 'immortal'....hehe, anyone confused yet?

but the REALITy is, that death has many forms, and one HAS to be decay so as to give forth life, and to make room for others. these transhumanists obbviously couldn't give two fuks for all the porr kids arriving who will need what resources the already overcrowded planets got. imagine it full of friggin immortals....

I get instant gratification from schoolwork. Maybe it's because it's art. I do it for a reason, not just because it'll let me live later. It is what's important in life, as I see it.

So, if you were dying in a month's time then you'd keep going to school until you died? You wouldn't stop 'learning' how to make art and just make it?

Ok. But I still doubt that you wouldn't change your life in the slightest.

Bills? Funeral?! Is that what's important in life?! HAHAHAHAHAHA!

These were example of LOOSE ENDS not important things. And I said that most bills could go hang, taking care of the funeral would be somewhat important to me just because I like to clean up my own messes.

Plus, why don't you let people know what they mean to you right away?

Because, often when you attempt to tell people what they mean to you then it fucks the whole thing up.

A work to leave for the ages... Why don't you start now? That way you'll do a good job. Don't have to wait for death's short notice. And why wouldn't you do it if you were to live for eternity?

It's not about starting it. It's about finishing it.

I'm not taking anything personally in this thread. Nothing to hide. What do you wish to know? I'll hang it all out if you're interested. Just don't keep it in your head for too long, there are more interesting things to remember.

First you were defensive and now you're brutally open? Heh.

Anyway, I'm not that interested to attempt to dissect your life. I was just asking a few questions is all. Maybe someone else will come along to examine you more fully.

When one says: "Live to the fullest," it doesn't refer to actions; it refers to the state of mind. Understand that each moment is necessary; if it isn't, don't do it.

Yes. But, part of the state of mind is awareness. And if one is aware that death is coming then that will alter one's perceptions on exactly what fits into a 'necessary' category and what doesn't.

Trimming your toenails for instance.

If a woman died childless, would it make her life meaningless? Not necessarily. I, as a representative of women, tell you I'd adopt.

It would make the purpose of your genes meaningless.

Go ahead and die suckers. I'm gonna embrace immortality as soon as cris figures out a way to pull it off.

If he doesn't? Well, fine.

Death defines life only in giving it a timeline. Yes, it probably does motivate to start doing shit. But I think we would be motivated to do things anyway. Maybe we would take our time, but life for me is defined by accomplishment. This would not change without death.

I think this short life is a terrible frustration. The more we get the more we are afraid to lose. The less we have the more we break our hearts at 'not having'. We are forever trying to fill up moments with activities that please us but end up most of the time doing activities that displease us.
We seek contentment in the 'now' and yet get up everyday to do something different.
We may end up achieving great things in our lives but on our deathbeds they seem trivial and meaningless. We are like dog's chasing our tails - sure that there must be some sweet prize at the end of the chase but finding nothing but pain and frustration in its place.
We are sorrowful miserable animals who have a worse lot than the birds of the air who do not worry where their next meal is coming from!
Our death's haunt and taunt us for no matter how much faith we have in ourselves and our own abilities we know we are to become worm food after just a short while.
Death teaches us one thing about life - you are NOT the master of your final destiny here on earth - its pre-coded if you like - into your genes - nothing you can do!
Sure people will say - yes but we can engineer those genes so that we live forever! Those people have not seen the horror that would be eternal life here on Earth whilst murderers and rapists and peodophiles still live. Would you deny the murderers genetically possible eternal life here on earth if the technology existed? On what grounds? On whose authority?
Death does not give purpose to life. Far from it - it takes away your purpose to live for all is futile!

peace

c20

c20,
You a 'glass is half empty' type, eh?

"We are forever trying to fill up moments with activities that please us but end up most of the time doing activities that displease us."

I think most people do activities that please them. If you are not one of these, maybe a change is on order.

"Would you deny the murderers genetically possible eternal life here on earth if the technology existed? On what grounds? On whose authority?"

Yes, we would deny it. On the grounds that they do not deserve to live and on our own authority.

At any rate, try and look at life and the world with a sense of humor. It is all rather comical that we are here at all. Nothing to cry about certainly.

c20,
You a 'glass is half empty' type, eh?


Nope not at all. Other posts of mine here will confirm that.


Quoting C20 - "We are forever trying to fill up moments with activities that please us but end up most of the time doing activities that displease us."

I think most people do activities that please them. If you are not one of these, maybe a change is on order.


When I get up I want to play with my kids. Actually thats all I would like to do all day pretty much. They have some wonderful games and to be assigned a 'pretend' role such as 'daddy - you be the baby and I'll be the angry lion who is going to eat you and our brother will be the hero who saves you' is a wicked privelage.
But no - daddy has to go to work and develop software solutions for people, daddy has to go and do this and that. maybe daddy will be able to play later.
In other words I cannot do what I love to do but only do what I hate to do. Even when I get the time to play with the kids I am so tired I hate to do what I love to do!



Quoting C20 - "Would you deny the murderers genetically possible eternal life here on earth if the technology existed? On what grounds? On whose authority?"

Yes, we would deny it. On the grounds that they do not deserve to live and on our own authority.


But they might have repented had you given them some hope! I am afraid that it is a terrible arrogance to assume you have authority over life and death my friend.


At any rate, try and look at life and the world with a sense of humor. It is all rather comical that we are here at all. Nothing to cry about certainly.

I agree with that sentiment entirely, however when I see starving little babies whose parents have died from aids and I look at people being beheaded in the name of Allah and so on and so forth, my humour slips a little. I am sure you will understand that.

thanks

c20

I agree but im not sure what exactly you mean by death gives purpose or meaning to life.....I think that life is what allows for death to be DEFINED and understood to a certain extent and Death allows for life to be DEFINED in the same manner. On the other hand when you say purpose you are impling that there is a REASON for one or the other.......besides defining eachother in contrast. But in the big picture most people would probably agree with you because most people believe life has a reason or purpose specificly for them and time which you have expressed add to the meaning or takes away from it in their/your case.

sly1,

I do think you are quite right in saying that the word "meaning" may have been used too loosely in the thread heading.

Possibly the words "can" "in part" or "helps to" could have been included
"Death can give life meaning?"

may be the concept of immortality is a little hard to grasp.....I mean to say just think a little about the concept of living for 1,000,000 years......I mean 1,000,000 years.

A person can never state they are immortal even if they have lived for a million years simply because to live for eternity one has to live it and because eternity has no end you can never say you have lived it........

So even imortality remains just a postponement of death. An indefinite postponement but still only a postponement....

So, if you were dying in a month's time then you'd keep going to school until you died? You wouldn't stop 'learning' how to make art and just make it?

Ah, perhaps you don't understand. I do art in school. It's not merely "lecture and go home." I get to interact with profs, the entire department remembers me by name and work (30 people/class). This semester, I decided I'd do what I've always dreamed of doing; and the profs allow me to do that. That's why I really don't see why people dislike college so much.

But I still doubt that you wouldn't change your life in the slightest.

To change my life, I'd have to change myself. I'm constantly in the process of doing so. Each person is perfectly able to change things he dislikes in his character. It is possible to not go through some change in the end, if a reason is encountered. I am one of those who think that every action has a reason for it, whatever reason that may be.

Because, often when you attempt to tell people what they mean to you then it fucks the whole thing up.

Then the entire acquaintance is fake and worthless, eh? That's why things should be made clear right away.

These were example of LOOSE ENDS not important things. And I said that most bills could go hang, taking care of the funeral would be somewhat important to me just because I like to clean up my own messes.

I understand. I agree, for the most part. But I think that as long as I have enough money to cover those expenses I do not need to rush the paperwork right before I die.

Yes. But, part of the state of mind is awareness. And if one is aware that death is coming then that will alter one's perceptions on exactly what fits into a 'necessary' category and what doesn't.

You didn't want another peek at my insides, but I'll flash you anyways :p After climbing out of suicidal behavior on my own, I do not care when death happens. Try to live with such a state of mind for a day, you may find yourself happier. I know, it looks like death always comes to soon. But what if you were satisfied with each moment? It doesn't mean you shouldn't be motivated to change things. And it really is all about the individual himself being satisfied, not about others.

Trimming your toenails for instance.

I trim nails when they bother me. Why wouldn't I trim my nails if I were to die in a week?
What's with the nails anyway?

It would make the purpose of your genes meaningless.

Your appeal to my sexual instincts is useless. I'd care about my genes if I lived a few centuries ago; but not now. Same for many other people. I know, many say they'll adopt and end up getting pregnant. But that won't happen to me.

It's not about starting it. It's about finishing it.

Like I said, each deed takes a certain amount of time, regardless of your fear of death.

examine you more fully.

Really, you people surprize me with your reasonings and ways of life so often! I'm a true earthling; that must mean you're all aliens :bugeye:

Duenby,
"whether I am alive or dead I can not know,
but to know I exist as both is all I know,
for every moment has it's genisis and it's death,
it's transformation and evolution,
it's reconfiguration and dissolution,
With out the death and rebirth in life
existance fails."

c2o,
"When I get up I want to play with my kids."

Yeah, I am the same as most parents. I really wish I could find a job where I could work at home. But, we all have to make sacrifices. Unfortunately for most that means spending time away from family to provide for them.

I see where you were coming from now though. When you add all these 'sacrifices' of time you have to make...the timeline is compressed quite a bit. How many years do we actually get doing exactly what we want? At least people are living longer nowadays, so maybe we will all have a couple decades after retirement to live it up in florida or something.

c2o,
At least people are living longer nowadays, so maybe we will all have a couple decades after retirement to live it up in florida or something.

Lol I wish! I cannot save money for anything. Truthfully I tell you that if that was my lot I would complain to God day in and day out. I have tasted love and I want it forever. I would feel agrieved if death was my lot, I want an eternity with my children. Who can blame me for that?

I agree with Quantum Quack; life is defined by death, not the reverse. More precisely stated, the state of nonexistence.

I disagree a bit. We don't fully know what death is. We know what it looks like from the outside, but not the inside. (And we know what life looks like from the inside, but not the outside). So I think we need to say that life and death define each other (whatever they are). Personally I think that the event of birth and the event of death are horizons that eternal life uses in order to create a sense of boundary, in order to allow the cosmos to take on a sense of consciousness via individual "lives." But that's another subject :)