I hear that the "lowly" Dalits of India are converting to Christianity in large numbers, a welcome relief from being told that they are scum, and really have no business being alive, so with the mostly Hindu government being pinched by the Muslims and the Christians, how will the nation respond to these pressures?

Not just conversion to Christianity - that's just spin!
The mass conversion is political and provides no supporting evidence for the existence of anything.

"...... provides no supporting evidence for the existence of anything." Well said!

Money makes many things!

What's one more god in 330 million? :)

The Dalit Christians reject all those gods, but at least they're allowed to vote, many in India still treat them like dogs however.

What's one more god in 330 million?

Interesting, Sam, how you can make jokes about serious issues in your wonderful, glorious nation of India, yet be seemingly horrified about some minor problems in the US or in Israel. How can you be so blatantly hypocritical in front of so many people?

I also wonder about how many people are seeing you as an example of the Muslim Indian people? I know that after running into you, I see Indians in a much different light than before ...and it ain't necessarily a good light, either .....much thanks to you and your hatred of the US and your blatant hypocrisy.

Baron Max

Interesting, Sam, how you can make jokes about serious issues in your wonderful, glorious nation of India, yet be seemingly horrified about some minor problems in the US or in Israel. How can you be so blatantly hypocritical in front of so many people?

I also wonder about how many people are seeing you as an example of the Muslim Indian people? I know that after running into you, I see Indians in a much different light than before ...and it ain't necessarily a good light, either .....much thanks to you and your hatred of the US and your blatant hypocrisy.

Baron Max

:confused:

I'm answering the OP.

There's always room for change in India. Which is why we have repersentatives of all major religions and then some. If people can improve their lives, why not?

There's always room for change in India. Which is why we have repersentatives of all major religions and then some. If people can improve their lives, why not?

Is that why there are people who are upset and demonstrating, and the cops are shooting them for doing so? Is that "representation"? If so, it's a bit different in India than elsewhere in the world, ain't it?

Improve their lives? Yeah, but the Indian police keep a tight rein on that, don't they? I mean, I'd call using deadly force against demonstrators a "tight rein", wouldn't you? Or is that Indian "representation"?

Baron Max

Is that why there are people who are upset and demonstrating, and the cops are shooting them for doing so? Is that "representation"? If so, it's a bit different in India than elsewhere in the world, ain't it?

Improve their lives? Yeah, but the Indian police keep a tight rein on that, don't they? I mean, I'd call using deadly force against demonstrators a "tight rein", wouldn't you? Or is that Indian "representation"?

Baron Max
You're absolutely right. If cops are shooting at demonstrators they should be prosecuted. They frequently are. And its not considered acceptable either, since you saw it in a newspaper, its obvious that its something Indians feel strongly about.

I do wish though that there was some way to change the thinking of people in backward areas quickly. One can only hope that education will lead to a better acceptance of the Dalits. Either that or their large scale conversions will force people to reassess their place in society. It is a shame that so many parts of India are still cut off from education.

I hear that the "lowly" Dalits of India are converting to Christianity in large numbers, a welcome relief from being told that they are scum, and really have no business being alive, so with the mostly Hindu government being pinched by the Muslims and the Christians, how will the nation respond to these pressures?

Not just conversion to Christianity - that's just spin!
The mass conversion is political and provides no supporting evidence for the existence of anything.

"...... provides no supporting evidence for the existence of anything." Well said!

You show your sources first....you made the opening statement!

It is a shame that so many parts of India are still cut off from education.

And the same issues are facing the Palestinians. Yet you concentrate your efforts of propaganda on the Palestinians instead of addressing those same deficiencies in your own nation of India. Why?

I can only consider it a form of personal hatred. And then the question arises, .......why? Why are the Palestinians so important to you, while your own people are suffering much the same problems? Why?

Baron Max

And the same issues are facing the Palestinians. Yet you concentrate your efforts of propaganda on the Palestinians instead of addressing those same deficiencies in your own nation of India. Why?

I can only consider it a form of personal hatred. And then the question arises, .......why? Why are the Palestinians so important to you, while your own people are suffering much the same problems? Why?

Baron Max

I don't think one needs to choose between the two.

Is it impossible to feel the same way about all people who are oppressed?

Why would it be personal hatred? If you were standing in front of a Palestinian/Indian child and he was shot should it matter that he is Palestinian or Indian?

Sam, why are the Dalits "cut off from education?"

Sam, why are the Dalits "cut off from education?"

Not just Dalits. India is primarily an agricultural country and working off the land is hard. Most people are poor and would rather have their children working on farms than going to school.

Plus even though education in goevrnment schools is free and seats are reserved, many of these seats remain unfilled because many people in backward areas do not feel they need an education, they may be hesitant about sending their girls away to school, those with "family businesses" prefer to have their children following their trade.

Many may also be bullied by higher castes who fear they will learn that they are human and have basic human rights. Sometimes, they just cannot afford the extra costs associated with education. Many reasons.

But still we've moved from 12% to almost 76% in males and almost 55% in females in 60 years. Some states are better and have 100% literacy, others are slower to change with closed communities and tribal customs they are afraid to leave. Hopefully the promise of a better standard of living will help them to change.

Should India make the caste system illegal, as a symbolic gesture that Dalits should not be treated like dogs?

Do the Dalits have realistic legal recourse when they are discriminated against?

The Dalit Christians reject all those gods, but at least they're allowed to vote, many in India still treat them like dogs however.

what do you fundies think of Non-Christians?

Do you love me? :)

Do you love me? :)
You're going to Hell.

Absolutely, some times more than others.

Should India make the caste system illegal, as a symbolic gesture that Dalits should not be treated like dogs?

Making the caste system illegal will only give power to fundamentalists. What India should do is aggressively promote education (its already been made compulsory, but maybe they can start a family welfare unit which will enforce it). I fully believe in the power of education to make a difference. We have such fantastic role models in our history, so many great Indians have been a part of our heritage and Indians are suckers for "the good guys always win" scenarios (if you watch our movies you'll know what I mean). The middle class is the fastest growing group in India today. Increase in education with decrease in poverty is the fastest route to assimilation. If you have a good job and a comfortable life, you're less likely to worry about what the other guy is taking away from you.

You're going to Hell.

http://www.internetcash.com/en/images/baby-crying.jpg

Do the Dalits have realistic legal recourse when they are discriminated against?

They are more organised now and there are Dalits who are lawyers cops and politicians. Exploitation is still rampant, but now it is generally recognised as unacceptable in society and people make a noise when it happens. Plus we have great press. They make sure such news hits the national papers and create awareness, ensuring the problem cannot be hidden or exploited.

That said our justice system is a joke. Too slow to be of any use. And many cops in rural areas are pretty chummy with the rich guys and can be persuaded to look away.

Would give power to what fundamentalists?

"If you have a good job..........you're less likely to worry about what the other guy is taking away from you." And who would that be who would "take away" from the new middle class of Dalits?

Would give power to what fundamentalists?

"If you have a good job..........you're less likely to worry about what the other guy is taking away from you." And who would that be who would "take away" from the new middle class of Dalits?

Religious fundamentalists.

Right now, the reason why Dalits are oppressed is because they have limited options. Education changes that, you can get a degree, leave your village and move to a city become a musician, a writer, earn more, change your life and those of other people who are in the same position you were. The other people in the village (higher castes for example) will be forced to do the same merely to keep up, so as to not be left behind. Right now, any Dalit who goes to school and gets a job is taking that opportunity away from a higher caste (as they perceive it). But once most of them are educated that will change, because they will start giving back.

I hear that the "lowly" Dalits of India are converting to Christianity in large numbers, a welcome relief from being told that they are scum, and really have no business being alive, so with the mostly Hindu government being pinched by the Muslims and the Christians, how will the nation respond to these pressures?

I don't think this a new trend, but Dalits also convert to Islam and Buddhism as well as Christianity. They lose the benefits that the Indian government pays them as members of a "backwards" caste, since they are no longer members of the caste system.

I don't think this a new trend, but Dalits also convert to Islam and Buddhism as well as Christianity. They lose the benefits that the Indian government pays them as members of a "backwards" caste, since they are no longer members of the caste system.

I didn't think so. They continue to call themselves Dalit Christians/Muslims and get benefits as being part of OBCs or other backward classes (economically and socially disadvantaged). Plus most of the converts retain their caste system.

While the Indian Constitution has duly made special provisions for the social and economic uplift of the Dalits, comprising the so-called scheduled castes and tribes in order to enable them to achieve upward social mobility, these concessions are limited to only those Dalits who remain Hindu. There is a demand among the Dalits who have converted to other religions that the statutory benefits should be extended to them as well as social relief to "overcome" historical injustices...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit

Sam, do you think the rights should be extended to Christian and Muslim Dalits?

Sam, do you think the rights should be extended to Christian and Muslim Dalits?
All disadvantaged people should receive benefits regardless of their religion.

It appears the Supreme Court is dealing with this issue, the next hearing is in April 2007.

Why has it taken so long to get to this point?

What do you think the odds are that the Supreme Court will side with the Christian and Muslim Dalits?

Do you favor the extension of the rights to the Christian and Muslim Dalits?

As a Muslim, Sam, do you favor the rights being extended to Christians, or do you favor an Islamic theocracy for India, as the Koran mandates?

There's always room for change in India. Which is why we have repersentatives of all major religions and then some. If people can improve their lives, why not?

It was religion that ruined their lives in the first place:

"In the Indian caste system, a Dalit, often called an untouchable, is a person who does not have any varnas. Varna refers to the Hindu belief that most humans were created from different parts of the body of the divinity Purusha and according to which part they were created from it defines their social standing for issues such as who they can marry and what jobs they can do.[1] Dalits fall outside varnas system and have historically been prevented from doing any but the most menial jobs.[1] They are also known as outcastes."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit_(outcaste)

It was religion that ruined their lives in the first place:

"In the Indian caste system, a Dalit, often called an untouchable, is a person who does not have any varnas. Varna refers to the Hindu belief that most humans were created from different parts of the body of the divinity Purusha and according to which part they were created from it defines their social standing for issues such as who they can marry and what jobs they can do.[1] Dalits fall outside varnas system and have historically been prevented from doing any but the most menial jobs.[1] They are also known as outcastes."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit_(outcaste)

Umm


The varna system is a functional hierarchy system proposed by the Brahmin texts to describe their society. It is an ideal system that did not exist anywhere in reality, as the Indian society was organised according to Jatis, since time immemorial. The oldest mention of the varna system is in the Purusha sukta of Rigveda 10.90 which claims "Brahmana is the mouth of the purusha, rajanya his arms, vaishya is his thighs and shudra arose from his feet" - an obvious reference to the organic (purusha) nature of the society, sustained by the harmonious integration of functional groups (organs) working in unison. One should note here that, the Purusha sukta verse of Rigveda should not be taken literally, as it is rendered in a poetical way to compare God like a human with 1000 arms and legs to portray his immense strength and valor. As some try to convolute this concept by saying shudras arose out of feet and hence they are lower in the society, one should not overlook the fact according to Purusha sukta that everyone arose from God and Gods leg is no inferior to his mouth and vice versa and also the point that God himself is formless.

umm... a rather poor deflection sam...

Of course, none of it should have been taken literally, but alas...

umm... a rather poor deflection sam...

Of course, none of it should have been taken literally, but alas...

Yeah, thats what happens when people don't study their religions and allow select people to control the information that gets to them.

Yeah, thats what happens when people don't study their religions and allow select people to control the information that gets to them.

No, that's what happens when you have religions.

No, that's what happens when you have religions.

As compared to which society that has successfully survived without religion for an equal length of time?

You do notice we are overflowing on the planet??

Yeah, thats what happens when people don't study their religions and allow select people to control the information that gets to them.

As compared to which society that has successfully survived without religion for an equal length of time?

You do notice we are overflowing on the planet??

Gee sam, overflowing on the planet, a planet inhabited and ruled mostly of theists for centuries. Can we find connections?

"Go forth and multiply"

Now, there's common sense for ya.

Gee sam, overflowing on the planet, a planet inhabited and ruled mostly of theists for centuries. Can we find connections?

"Go forth and multiply"

Now, there's common sense for ya.

So where are the atheists? Making the bombs to reduce the population?:rolleyes:

So where are the atheists? Making the bombs to reduce the population?

You're so predictable when your back's against the wall.

You're so predictable when your back's against the wall.

Prove to me that a society without religion can survive.:)

Prove to me that a society without religion can survive.:)

And society is proving itself sustainable with religion? It is to laugh, sam.

"Large-scale surveys show dramatic declines in religiosity in favor of secularization in the developed democracies. Popular acceptance of evolutionary science correlates negatively with levels of religiosity, and the United States is the only prosperous nation where the majority absolutely believes in a creator and evolutionary science is unpopular. Abundant data is available on rates of societal dysfunction and health in the first world. Cross-national comparisons of highly differing rates of religiosity and societal conditions form a mass epidemiological experiment that can be used to test whether high rates of belief in and worship of a creator are necessary for high levels of social health. Data correlations show that in almost all regards the highly secular democracies consistently enjoy low rates of societal dysfunction, while pro-religious and anti-evolution America performs poorly."

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2005-11.pdf

And society is proving itself sustainable with religion? It is to laugh, sam.

"Large-scale surveys show dramatic declines in religiosity in favor of secularization in the developed democracies. Popular acceptance of evolutionary science correlates negatively with levels of religiosity, and the United States is the only prosperous nation where the majority absolutely believes in a creator and evolutionary science is unpopular. Abundant data is available on rates of societal dysfunction and health in the first world. Cross-national comparisons of highly differing rates of religiosity and societal conditions form a mass epidemiological experiment that can be used to test whether high rates of belief in and worship of a creator are necessary for high levels of social health. Data correlations show that in almost all regards the highly secular democracies consistently enjoy low rates of societal dysfunction, while pro-religious and anti-evolution America performs poorly."

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2005-11.pdf

Thats a false correlation.

1. These societies have already had their genocides and segregation and are mostly homogenous

2. Their "development" is based on past and present exploitation of less civilised societies and a disproportionate chunk of the earths resources.

3. They have only been around a few years and so their sustainability is not certain. After all who finances their standard of living?

The longest surviving societies in the world all have a form of religion.

Prove to me that a society without religion can survive.:)

Sorry Sam: hunter-gatherer societies did very well for 99% of human evolution - I thinks it more a case of you proving that societies with religion can survive (in the long term)?

Thats a false correlation.

Because, you say so? :rolleyes:

Thats a false correlation.

The longest surviving societies in the world all have a form of religion.

You forgot the word 'dysfunctional' in your catch-all assertion, sam.

Because, you say so? :rolleyes:

No because your "secular societies" just finished WWII 60 years ago, which involved racism and inhumane treatment of people who were considered inferior. Just one generation ago.

The major conflicts in the world today are in places where artificial borders were created by these "secular" societies for their financial benefit (whether its France, Holland or Britain) and because they are still installing multinational corporations that outcompete local farmers (contributing to starvation) and supply weapons (contributing to conflict) and support dictators (or have, in the recent past, contributing to undemocratic regimes). Thus their "secular" societies depend on exploitation for maintenance. They even use people in Third world countries to test drugs so as optimise their effects. Even the "aid" they give is a joke (http://www.marxist.com/third-world-debt-imperialism140205.htm).

Really is this your model for the future?

Like Christendom extending out from the epicentre at the Vatican?

Secular societies are clearing up the mess left by the Crusades...

Secular societies are clearing up the mess left by the Crusades...

By supplying arms and testing drugs in the third world?

Perhaps they want to ensure the proliferation of deserving individuals only?

Church's invest in arms companies...I'm a secularist and I don't.

Church's invest in arms companies...I'm a secularist and I don't.

:rolleyes:

Allegations of corruption involving BAE Systems, the government-sponsored arms firm, have been identified by the Guardian in a further three countries.

The new allegations are in India, where BAE is currently renewing efforts to sell the Hawk fighter/trainer; Qatar, where a relative of the ruler was paid £7m; and South Africa, where the then defence minister is alleged to have been bribed, also to buy Hawks.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/armstrade/story/0,,976559,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/armstrade/story/0,,1972694,00.html

Here is an interesting read:
http://www.un-ngls.org/europe_arms_export.pdf

No because your "secular societies" just finished WWII 60 years ago, which involved racism and inhumane treatment of people who were considered inferior. Just one generation ago.

Horsepucky, it's hilarious the way you reach for empty arguments, again and again and ... especially when you really don't know what you're talking about. Please explain to us all how secularism caused WWII?

Even the "aid" they give is a joke (http://www.marxist.com/third-world-debt-imperialism140205.htm).

Really is this your model for the future?

Too funny, sam. Communism is your answer?

Hunter-gatherer societies did very well for 99% of human evolution - I thinks it more a case of you proving that societies with religion can survive (in the long term)?

I think this point is worth addressing.

Really is this your model for the future?

http://beautifulatrocities.com/images/jmfb11.jpg

Horsepucky, it's hilarious the way you reach for empty arguments, again and again and ... especially when you really don't know what you're talking about. Please explain to us all how secularism caused WWII?

Too funny, sam. Communism is your answer?

What secularism? Where? Or is secularism limited to people within a country but open season on everyone else?

I think this point is worth addressing.

And you know these societies were not religious because...?

Totemism, animism and magic/shamanism were precursors of religion.

http://beautifulatrocities.com/images/jmfb11.jpg


Yes, obvious religious motivations wouldn't you know?

http://aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=3&id=4708

Here sam, clearly this one escapes you:

secularism: freethinking that rejects religion and religious considerations

Here sam, clearly this one escapes you:

secularism: freethinking that rejects religion and religious considerations

Got it, thanks. Does it include freedom of religion or is that a non sequitur?

Perhaps you could clarify how it supports the survival of society.

Got it, thanks. Does it include freedom of religion or is that a non sequitur?

Freedom to fantasize is allowed, but it isn't extended to those who impose their fantasies on reality.

Perhaps you could clarify how it supports the survival of society.

Thinking supports society, lest society means cave dwelling. How do religious fantasies support societies, sam?

By supplying arms and testing drugs in the third world?

Oh, I get it now, sam... secularism is the ultimate conspiracy theory in which arms are sold to theists in the hope that they blow each other up. Brilliant!

The problem is that religious ideology has attempted to appropriate the cooperative aspects of human nature as attributes of the dogma and relationship to an imaginary entity/entities.
This is exactly what the initial post of the thread was designed to do...

Freedom to fantasize is allowed, but it isn't extended to those who impose their fantasies on reality.

Thinking supports society, lest society means cave dwelling. How do religious fantasies support societies, sam?

Its a fact that religion supports society (Q). Look at all the theists taking up for each other ONLY because they belong to the same religion!:D

And its not thinking that supports society, its communal effort. Which is what religion teaches. Atheists are separatists by nature.

Oh, I get it now, sam... secularism is the ultimate conspiracy theory in which arms are sold to theists in the hope that they blow each other up. Brilliant!

You persist in misunderstanding my words.

I'm fed up, have fun.

Its a fact that religion supports society (Q).

A bold yet empty statement.

Look at all the theists taking up for each other ONLY because they belong to the same religion!

Taking up what?

And its not thinking that supports society, its communal effort. Which is what religion teaches. Atheists are separatists by nature.

More empty statements. Silly in the extreme, sam.

You persist in misunderstanding my words.

You persist in misunderstanding reality, that much is clear.

You persist in misunderstanding reality, that much is clear.

Yeah, I'm totally delusional, I see everything through theist colored glasses.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/images/smilies/lala.gif

Hindus converting to Christianity is a disaster. Hinduism is the only remaining Indo-European belief unbroken since ancient times. To lose it would be to lose a precious treasure.

Look at the story of Manu and the Seven Rishis, obviously paralleling Noah and the seven aboard the Ark, so the Hindu version is a variation of the accurate rendering.

Look at the story of Manu and the Seven Rishis, obviously paralleling Noah and the seven aboard the Ark, so the Hindu version is a variation of the accurate rendering.

And yet the Hindu version was written several thousand years before the Biblical one...
Your logic is flawless IAC.
---
Dalits converting to Christianity is most probably a political move. As in Indonesia, the religions are influenced by Hinduism and do not retain the rigidness or what would be considered orthodoxy in the West. In essence, it wouldn't be "true" Christianity, but a little bit of that and a little bit of this.

How political?

As conversion is being used to effect a political solution to a religious problem - people are not converting because their belief in a god had changed but rather because conversion offers them a better political position in Indian society.

By converting (I think) they hope to escape religious labelling. It would be fair to question a political basis for conversion were there no environmental or cultural factors: poverty, alienation, etc.

What is your opinion about a political motive for conversion?